I'd like to share some of my observations related to today's community with you, because I believe we have to do something in order to get everyone - especially the newcomers - to understand how things work around here. I'm pretty much a conservative guy, I always like the old things better, but I'm open to changes also - unless the change is negative, as it is with today's worms community, I think.
I'm not talking about the forum readers here, the kind of people who read these forums, understand English quite well and as a result, are clear with the etiquette and the way things work. The problem is - if there is a problem, there might not be, it could be only me :-[ - that the young people who start playing this game now are completely unaware of these customs.
I have seen this a lot for example: there are games hosted in #AnythingGoes with names like "tus hysteria", that is the most common I see. When you join, the host plays 1 TUS Hysteria game with you. You don't know if it's for Classic or TRL, you don't know how many games the guy wants to play. If you ask, they don't understand - because they probably don't know what Classic League or TRL is or they don't speak English. The maps they play on, personally, I'd declare unusable.
Even if you get to play two games, they don't understand what picking a scheme means, they are very likely to quit in the middle of your pick, not because they are "bad people", only because they don't understand the custom of playing a Classic League match for instance, when you pick a scheme and the opponent picks a scheme, that's how it works and they don't know that, and they are not to blame.
I'm not trying to be mean here, don't get me wrong, but I'm under the impression that there is a big cloud here on which newcomers don't see through and they have no knowledge at all about anything and as TUS today is the main source of basically everything related to Worms: Armageddon, I believe we should do something. I have no idea what yet, but I think something must be done.
I know it's easy to be smart with hindsight, but I was bringing up topics that could lead to this condition a while ago, but noone cared back then. I really hope that now, that things got exponentially worse, we can make a change and also, that I'm not the only one who sees a problem here.
:(
There's no reason for change as TUS is clear in its principles: quantity beats quality
efforts are aimed at reaching for a bigger userbase rather than stablishing a quality one.
You are right, but this is exactly what I'm trying to change here. Damage is done, even though we have a time machine on the site, we can't use that to jump back in time. You are a man with a huge experience, you could also help. ;)
Quote from: Ray on August 10, 2011, 09:54 PM
You are right, but this is exactly what I'm trying to change here. Damage is done, even though we have a time machine on the site, we can't use that to jump back in time. You are a man with a huge experience, you could also help. ;)
they don't want my help
The community is fine and TUS is the highest quality league WA has ever had. Dno wtf ropa is talking about but we all know he likes to play the provocateur for the sake of trying to look clever.
Worms is more active than its ever been, ofc your gonna get some guys who dont understand how it all works but they will learn. If they dont learn then they stop playing. In the years ive been playing tus I havent found this to be a problem ray. People not understanding how the league works doesnt seem to be a major issue. If they continue to play league games then they will learn eventually!
But how about instead of leaving them to learn these things eventually, making steps to help them? For instance, increasing the quality of this website? There is a huge amount of information, but as I see it, it is stored in a wrong and overcomplicated way.
This might really not be a problem, as you say, but I remember when I started playing this game, a lot of people game me a clue and helped me to understand and learn. It's another thing that I was the kind of person who wanted to learn, that's also important.
And back then, there was only English material found on the internet, we have a strong tool in our hands with TUS, let's use it! We can translate into any language.
Yes I agree the rules and the league workings should be made as clear as possible, but I really dont think the issue you raise is that prevalent! There is no mass complaing about people not understanding how the system works, there may be a few problems but they are easily resolved and dont cause much of an issue.
ropa wants us to handle TUS the way Kiros handled fb. Shall we go ahead and write a script to auto-ban you (http://wqdb.org/index.php?309) then? ;D
The main problem is that WA has evolved so much over time that any newcomer will have to wade through an enormous text to know what everything is about here. Mostly, people online can't be arsed to read a lot of text, they just want to play.
If you can find a way to make the necessary starting info minimal, I'd say go for it.
The rules are readily available in plenty of languages (16 and counting), so that's not the problem (though, admittedly, scheme rules are hard to find; I've PMed MI about that again just now - cheers for the heads up there a while back, I hope it'll be addressed now).
But here's the thing: without new blood, this game dies. Look at the people playing now and the people playing 6 years ago and you'll see a big difference. Sure, there are a couple of oldschoolers still around, but if it weren't for the new players who developed their skills to play competitively, this game would've been long gone. You simply need new blood to keep things interesting.
Not all of the new people will know english at first. Would nino still be here if he were banned from fb because his english sucked back then?
(http://d1.worms2d.info/TUS/fun1.png)
Quote from: Ray on August 10, 2011, 10:54 PM
This might really not be a problem, as you say, but I remember when I started playing this game, a lot of people game me a clue and helped me to understand and learn. It's another thing that I was the kind of person who wanted to learn, that's also important.
I think this is the most important part in this game. I didn't learn anything about WA from reading it in rules and what not. I just played.
That's what they're doing now too. Why is it wrong for them to learn about WA the same way you and I did (not ropa, of course, he already knew ;))
True, there are people that don't want to learn, but those people don't stick around very long. Can't really do much about them.
The way they helped me was by actually bringing me to hundreds of webpages, all which I read through, I should have mentioned that. :-[ Well, yes, you could be right. It's just, what I see on WormNet every day is so much different from what it was, say, 2 years ago, back then - which wasn't even long ago - 60-70% of the people was trying to play league games or knew generally all the classic schemes and played those. But now this amount went down drastically and that's the thing I'm worried about.
How about a multiple choice test when you sign up to tus. You have to get 100% on it before your account is activated? Included is rules, customs, etiquette, and etc.
lol just a suggestion. I don't know how else your problem would be solved.
Quote from: Dub-c on August 11, 2011, 05:56 AM
How about a multiple choice test when you sign up to tus. You have to get 100% on it before your account is activated? Included is rules, customs, etiquette, and etc.
lol just a suggestion. I don't know how else your problem would be solved.
Not so good idea imo... I think most of newcomers will just give up on 1st try and wont even try to read the rules.
Quote from: NAiL on August 10, 2011, 10:09 PM
The community is fine and TUS is the highest quality league WA has ever had. Dno wtf ropa is talking about but we all know he likes to play the provocateur for the sake of trying to look clever.
perhaps it's the most feature rich league, but that's not all there is to it.
D1, stop making excuses, you're better than that, notice the vocal new school? They're not living in the shoutbox and posting internet images from 2002 because society has evolved into this, it's because quality is not demanded, it's not even recommended.
Nail will tell you that this ain't a problem, as you see, he's one of the many examples of someone actually believing the TUS propaganda. The phenom known as being actively new school. What is it, you might ask? Well, TUS shields itself against any kind of progress that isn't populistic and this scheme of working things out is flawed from its conception.
Why? Because if you're going to be a populistic authority, ideally you'd want the people to be insightful to the topics you're presenting them. But when you do nothing to educate them then I can't help but think things are being done wrong.
The best league WA has ever had? How are you measuring it, Nail? Games played? Well, it's also the league with the most complaints, probably the second league with the most bans. And not to mention other things that you probably can't grasp them being TUS fault, things like, lack of clan competitiveness, lack of motivation for Playoff completion, lack of debate in the forums and basically lack of everything other than playing games.
Nice league indeed, as for its actual value to the community: other leagues have done infintely more
I love TUS, the staff, the features, the creator (:-*), but unfortunately, I think ropa is right.
I didn't start this thread to have an angry quarrel like "TUS IS GUD!!!44" "TUS IS B4D!!11" though, I started this thread to see if other people see what I see and if TUS staff wants to make some changes, discuss what those changes should be and how to execute them.
As likely as it is to have this thread ending up in a flamewar again, I'm still asking you, please don't...
Hmm ropa you are wrong about clanners, cFc constantly clan, we play 100-200 a month, I basically clanner everytime I am on at weekend, it's great, but right now it's not so great cuz of the WO thing.
Quote from: Komito on August 11, 2011, 07:45 AM
Hmm ropa you are wrong about clanners, cFc constantly clan, we play 100-200 a month, I basically clanner everytime I am on at weekend, it's great, but right now it's not so great cuz of the WO thing.
But the number of the clans who actively compete for both seasonal and overall points, playoffs and are - not to insult anyone, but - on a "professional" level (meaning that they can compete in every scheme, you understand...) is only a fraction compared to how it used to be, that's what ropa meant. Sure you play a lot of clanners each season, but against who? The same 5-6 clans. :(
I never understood this idea of making clans and then not playing clanners, "cus clanner is stupid."... pointless.
Quote from: Komito on August 11, 2011, 07:45 AM
Hmm ropa you are wrong about clanners, cFc constantly clan, we play 100-200 a month, I basically clanner everytime I am on at weekend, it's great, but right now it's not so great cuz of the WO thing.
I didn't express myself correctly, yes, activity is in a peak in this league, and that's something I'm willing to give them credit for. However, and TUS might think this ain't their responsability -fair enough- but how many respected clans are there? three? four? I'm not talking about skill here, for all I know rOx or pS could beat TEA in bo5, I don't care, that's not the thing. The thing is, TEA will voluntarely try to get the clanner going, be helpful, be funny, and give a good challenge. rOx on the other hand will make you feel like getting a clanner going is more like a chore than an enjoyment and whilst playing they'll do everything in their hands to win even if that means receiving bad publicity.
That's because the community as a whole is not punishing these kind of behaviours because the visible heads (the league's staff) are not doing anything to push out this kind of attitude.
Hey, as long as games are being played!
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:01 AM
...
That's because the community as a whole is not punishing these kind of behaviours because the visible heads (the league's staff) are not doing anything to push out this kind of attitude.
Hey, as long as games are being played!
One of the reasons that the behaviour you're talking about is not being pushed out is (IMO) MI's concern that in the end it would be counter-productive for the league's current biggest plus, activity.
You say we should punish it, but at the same time you mention there's too much complaints and bans.
Quote from: Rok on August 11, 2011, 09:36 AM
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:01 AM
...
That's because the community as a whole is not punishing these kind of behaviours because the visible heads (the league's staff) are not doing anything to push out this kind of attitude.
Hey, as long as games are being played!
One of the reasons that the behaviour you're talking about is not being pushed out is (IMO) MI's concern that in the end it would be counter-productive for the league's current biggest plus, activity.
You say we should punish it, but at the same time you mention there's too much complaints and bans.
Having many complaints doesn't necessarily mean that the behaviour we are talking about is being pushed out. If you take a look at those complaints,
most of them are products of misunderstandings - once again, players who have no earthly idea about the rules or the process of playing in a league whatsoever (or badly reported games, that happens).
And in my point of view, that leads to a solution of organizing and translating the huge amount of information on this site.
Well you can't argue it's an issue, I mena, not long ago I had some issues with navigating the site for league rules, it was a valid concern, but apparently I was just trolling.
Not sure if anything has been done about it, but at least I'd like an excuse as to why it's so confusing to find out vital information such as if AFR is mandatory in shopper or not.
Maybe I'm just biased and not open minded enough, but the moment I saw the scheme was uploaded by an individual user I thought to myself, if anyone can upload a scheme why am I expected to look into said upload to read the leagues OFFICIAL rules. It didn't make sense in my head but I was quickly put down being told that I should of checked better.
Oh well, I'm only concerned because if I had issues I don't want to imagine what other's are struggling with.
i would have to agree, if a prodigy like ropa had an issue, the weaker minded peasants must be struggling
well, it was about time the official (hey, clever use of the word I know) trolls came into the thread to add absolutely nothing of value.
i was just co-signing your brilliance, relax
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 10:43 AM
Well you can't argue it's an issue, I mena, not long ago I had some issues with navigating the site for league rules, it was a valid concern, but apparently I was just trolling.
Not sure if anything has been done about it, but at least I'd like an excuse as to why it's so confusing to find out vital information such as if AFR is mandatory in shopper or not.
Maybe I'm just biased and not open minded enough, but the moment I saw the scheme was uploaded by an individual user I thought to myself, if anyone can upload a scheme why am I expected to look into said upload to read the leagues OFFICIAL rules. It didn't make sense in my head but I was quickly put down being told that I should of checked better.
Oh well, I'm only concerned because if I had issues I don't want to imagine what other's are struggling with.
He is actually spot on...
MonkeyIsland is open to change, but I'm guessing he can only do so much himself.
is there something you don't like about the league? you can very likely help in a couple ways:
post about it to start a discussion, letting others form a solution, or make your own detailed suggestion if you feel strongly enough.
that's what I did when TUS discussed getting a new rating system (well, HHC gets all the credit, I only helped). I also did this when I felt strongly about how playoffs were lasting too long, and now I'm actually the one handling them.
go for that active helping approach, as TUS seems to thrive on community contributions.
I know Ray feels strongly here, since he posted this thread, but he ended his post with "I believe we should do something. I have no idea what yet, but I think something must be done." keep thinking and maybe you can come up with a nice idea :)
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMperhaps it's the most feature rich league, but that's not all there is to it.
So tell me what else there is to it... dont make brazen statements without any foundation.
As you said TUS is definitely the most feature rich league there has ever been, that is a good thing. I will admit that people are not as motivated to get PO games done as they used to be, but you cant blame TUS for that. This is an issue with the community at large, I guess people are not as eager to win POs as they used to be, this is noting to do with TUS. Is this a bad thing? Yes it is, but again this has nothing to do with the design of TUS or the way TUS is run. The mods do a good job of trying their hardest to encourage peoplento get games done at the end of the season.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMD1, stop making excuses, you're better than that, notice the vocal new school? They're not living in the shoutbox and posting internet images from 2002 because society has evolved into this, it's because quality is not demanded, it's not even recommended.
"Vocal new school"
You are talking about a MINORITY of TUS users who like to spam the shoutbox and post troll threads. I dont like this any more than you do, but again this is not a product of TUS, this is a product of the current community as you stated, so I dont see how this is relevant to the workings of TUS which is what this thread was originally about.
I also dont see how a handful of people spamming the shoutbox is a big deal. Remember when MrE was hacking everyone? Remember when you got hax? Thats a far more serious issue than a few adolescents posting images in the shoutbox, would you not agree?
Also you're guilty of trolling, you are a troll. You are smart and articulate but you lack tact ropa, you have no tact and thats a crying shame. Remember when TUS first started and you were running your mouth all over the place talking shit (check trash can). So you are not one to talk about spam and trolling, as you're as guilty as the rest of them.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMNail will tell you that this ain't a problem, as you see, he's one of the many examples of someone actually believing the TUS propaganda. The phenom known as being actively new school. What is it, you might ask? Well, TUS shields itself against any kind of progress that isn't populistic and this scheme of working things out is flawed from its conception.
I have already said I dont condone spam and trolling that has plagued TUS as of late, but this is a community issue, not a direct consequence of the workings of the league. This is a MINORITY of users and isnt a reflection of the vast majority of TUS users. So yes this ISNT an issue, not a serious one anyway, and certainly not one that cant be corrected if it did become a serious issue.
"NAiL actually believes the TUS propaganda"
...wtf are you talking about, "propaganda", seriously. List examples of so called "TUS propaganda"... wtf are you talking about? This is a prime example of the nonsense you come out with sometimes.
I dont properly understand your last sentence, but TUS does not shield itself from progress, TUS is the only example of a league where the users can openly criticise and suggest new features... AND THEY WILL BE LISTENED TO! This is wonderful, this is democracy and this makes for a diverse and exciting number of ways to enjoy competitive games.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMWhy? Because if you're going to be a populistic authority, ideally you'd want the people to be insightful to the topics you're presenting them. But when you do nothing to educate them then I can't help but think things are being done wrong.
If you're talking about the league rules not being clear enough, or the design of TUS being quite maze like then I would agree. But again, this is not a serious issue, this does not affect the vast majority of TUS users. Most people know how the league works and most people who dont know will eventually learn, this isnt a serious issue but there is no harm in making the rules and workings clearer.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMThe best league WA has ever had? How are you measuring it, Nail? Games played? Well, it's also the league with the most complaints, probably the second league with the most bans. And not to mention other things that you probably can't grasp them being TUS fault, things like, lack of clan competitiveness, lack of motivation for Playoff completion, lack of debate in the forums and basically lack of everything other than playing games.
Yeah thats right, the best league WA has ever had. Three different leagues, cups, challenges, maps, files, tournaments, statistical analysis and comparison of a players performance.. Its also the most active league there has been thus complaints will rise proportionally, thats another irrelevant point. As to bans, how many people are permanently banned. Zero? I remember being banned numerous times from FB and im a nice guy.
The difference between me and you is that I have been actively playing this game since 2005. You stopped playing actively when I started, you havent been a proper part of the community for the last 5 years, I have. You are a spectator, I am a participant. You dont take part in competitive games any more, I do. You are an observer who likes to cast judgement and provoke reaction. You will often raise good points although you also make points that have no foundation and are based more on personal bias rather than actual facts, which is sad.
We agree on the fact that a lack of competitiveness (especially with regards to PO games) is a community issue, it has nothing to do with TUS, it was the same with XTC, its been like this for the last half decade, again, its a community issue and has nothing to do with the design of the league.
Let me make clear, I ACCEPT, that for you, and many other people, the golden age of worming is over. I UNDERSTAND, that back in the day everyone was more competitive and it was quite an achievement to win a season. The thing is, its not 2004, its 2011, things have changed. The community has changed since then, things are more diverse now, priorities are different. Dont confuse community issues with the workings of the league and dont assume its the league that determines the mind state of the community. A douche will be a douche whether he is told not to be or not.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMNice league indeed, as for its actual value to the community: other leagues have done infintely more
Infinitely more? Thats quite a statement, but can you actually back it up with examples of how other leagues have done "Infinitely more"?
I dont think you can, because its unfounded trash talk.
No other league creator has been as dedicated to their league as MI is. No other league has taken on criticism and suggestions and made them both tangible and functional like TUS has. TUS is standing the test of time and the site is constantly improving, I see no major problems with TUS.
The ORIGINAL POINT of this thread was about people not understanding how the league works, this is not a major issue and it certainly isnt unresolvable. In the years ive been playing TUS ive had a problem with people not understanding how the league works... maybe once or twice, and thats to be expected.
Do you really think thousands of games would be consistently played each month if TUS was doing something seriously wrong?
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AM
D1, stop making excuses, you're better than that, notice the vocal new school? They're not living in the shoutbox and posting internet images from 2002 because society has evolved into this, it's because quality is not demanded, it's not even recommended.
Isn't that exactly what I said in my post? "[...]Mostly, people online can't be arsed to read a lot of text[...]" I'm honestly quite curious how you think we could combat this other than putting into effect a massive banning spree unless people are willing to change these habits.
Hack 4chan so only intellectual and philosophical debates happen?
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMNail will tell you that this ain't a problem, as you see, he's one of the many examples of someone actually believing the TUS propaganda. The phenom known as being actively new school. What is it, you might ask? Well, TUS shields itself against any kind of progress that isn't populistic and this scheme of working things out is flawed from its conception.
Why? Because if you're going to be a populistic authority, ideally you'd want the people to be insightful to the topics you're presenting them. But when you do nothing to educate them then I can't help but think things are being done wrong.
I'm sorry, but what makes you think this is anything different from the old days? I only recall one league that didn't do the populistic thing; fb (I didn't add that comment in my post for nothing, you know!). I think we all remember how well that went).
All the information you need is on the site. Short of MI personally welcoming every new member and addressing them in their own language on how things work around here, I don't know what you're expecting here.
Ray said it too: he learned because of the community showing him the ropes (sorry, non-ropers, that's just the way the saying goes!)
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AM
The best league WA has ever had? How are you measuring it, Nail? Games played? Well, it's also the league with the most complaints, probably the second league with the most bans. And not to mention other things that you probably can't grasp them being TUS fault, things like, lack of clan competitiveness, lack of motivation for Playoff completion, lack of debate in the forums and basically lack of everything other than playing games.
Nice league indeed, as for its actual value to the community: other leagues have done infintely more
Seriously, dude, take off your nostalgia goggles. Too much pink when you look into the past. Back in 2006, fb made a major decision to follow with the following problems:
Quote from: KRD, summarized
1. Flaming. People provoking every opponent they play against in order to make them nervous and take the win.
2. Rule abuse. Doing everything you possibly can to win sounds like a good idea, but it's gone too far, caused too many complaints for us to be able to handle on and off the complaints section.
3. Newbie raping.
4. Multiple accounts.
Playoffs: http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
Holy shit, was that an exercise in patience.
You can argue that's not early 2000s, but it was still 5 years ago; that's almost half of WA's existence. I'm not pretending this is a good thing. I'm just asking why you think other leagues have done infinitely more, when this is the same thing we've seen way earlier.
As for more complaints, I don't know. Have you weighed the amount of complaints against the amount of games played? Did you not count complaints where simply a wrong report was filed? How did you compare? Quite curious about that! :)
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:01 AM
I didn't express myself correctly, yes, activity is in a peak in this league, and that's something I'm willing to give them credit for. However, and TUS might think this ain't their responsability -fair enough- but how many respected clans are there? three? four? I'm not talking about skill here, for all I know rOx or pS could beat TEA in bo5, I don't care, that's not the thing. The thing is, TEA will voluntarely try to get the clanner going, be helpful, be funny, and give a good challenge. rOx on the other hand will make you feel like getting a clanner going is more like a chore than an enjoyment and whilst playing they'll do everything in their hands to win even if that means receiving bad publicity.
That's because the community as a whole is not punishing these kind of behaviours because the visible heads (the league's staff) are not doing anything to push out this kind of attitude.
Hey, as long as games are being played!
How can you compare TEA to rOx? Compare it to RoH, CKC, CfC and TdC and see if you still feel the same discrepancy. The behaviour you're describing for rOx is something we've seen in all worms leagues and I don't recall any of these leagues ever banning someone for it. Didn't Div2 once have 7 players with perfect scores at one point?
Nostalgia is fine, but when you're critiquing how things used to be better, take off the nostalgia goggles first.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 10:43 AM
Well you can't argue it's an issue, I mena, not long ago I had some issues with navigating the site for league rules, it was a valid concern, but apparently I was just trolling. Not sure if anything has been done about it, but at least I'd like an excuse as to why it's so confusing to find out vital information such as if AFR is mandatory in shopper or not.
I actually posted about that, saying you had a good point. I recently found out I could edit the rules and so I added a little entry about scheme rules in it. Better late than never, I suppose.
I'll admit the response is not always what it should be, but again: this is nothing new at all. Not sure why you're making it about TUS here.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 12:11 PM
well, it was about time the official (hey, clever use of the word I know) trolls came into the thread to add absolutely nothing of value.
Dude, look at your posts. You're a smart guy and you make good points, but if you wrap your posts in bile, nobody is going to listen. You can catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Again, I'm not saying there are no problems. I'm not saying things are what they should be. Things are always open to improvement.
But the solution you seem to be offering is a massive banning spree, which will not solve the problem (I'm gonna refer to fb again)
Quote from: DarkOne on August 11, 2011, 05:21 PM
Playoffs: http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
good memories
oh and I'm posting this (http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?p=19130&highlight=#19130), because I like Kiros' response xD and its the season 22 playoffs
Quote from: NAiL on August 11, 2011, 05:05 PMI will admit that people are not as motivated to get PO games done as they used to be, but you cant blame TUS for that.
Noone is blaming here TUS for anything! I said this before, the reason we should make a change is that TUS is visited by so many players that anything here can make a difference! Please don't misunderstand my reasons...
NAiL, you have to understand something, you cannot separate TUS and the community, such a large site like this has an enormous effect on how the community acts, even in non-TUS games or generally in #AnythingGoes.
Quote from: NAiL on August 11, 2011, 05:05 PM
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMWhy? Because if you're going to be a populistic authority, ideally you'd want the people to be insightful to the topics you're presenting them. But when you do nothing to educate them then I can't help but think things are being done wrong.
If you're talking about the league rules not being clear enough, or the design of TUS being quite maze like then I would agree. But again, this is not a serious issue, this does not affect the vast majority of TUS users. Most people know how the league works and most people who dont know will eventually learn, this isnt a serious issue but there is no harm in making the rules and workings clearer.
Of course it's a serious issue, perhaps the most serious one! Newcomers have no idea at all about anything, you want them to read through this (https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/) and additionally, find each scheme's rules individually and read those too? Who does that? 1 out of 1000 people? These posts are great, but they are so damn long and not to mention that what you need to know is like 5% of all these. I'm not even sure if they are still valid. :-X
And if the newcomers to this community "grows up" like this, eventually, oldschool players will stop playing, and you know what I see coming? The same that happened to WWP...
DarkOne, noone is offering bans as solution, this has nothing to do with that.
Franz, the problem I'm facing is that the changes I'd personally make are so huge and so far-reaching that neither can I collect them or form my ideas into words that everyone can understand. It'd need such a deep research and so much time that I don't really have.
But I'll try... :(
Quote from: Husk on August 11, 2011, 06:41 PM
Quote from: DarkOne on August 11, 2011, 05:21 PM
Playoffs: http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
good memories
was fny when dean asked if i could be unbanned for the purpose to plan clan playoffs and kiro quickly said no :(
Quote from: Husk on August 11, 2011, 06:41 PM
Quote from: DarkOne on August 11, 2011, 05:21 PM
Playoffs: http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
good memories
oh and I'm posting this (http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?p=19130&highlight=#19130), because I like Kiros' response xD and its the season 22 playoffs
Yeah, you eliminated me!
Quote from: Ray on August 11, 2011, 07:22 PM
Of course it's a serious issue, perhaps the most serious one! ...
Franz, the problem I'm facing is that the changes I'd personally make are so huge and so far-reaching that neither can I collect them or form my ideas into words that everyone can understand. It'd need such a deep research and so much time that I don't really have.
But I'll try... :(
well then even just small solutions can help. you don't have to solve everything at once.
you seem to have the passion :) try to use it in a positive way.
don't let the size of it hold you back if you truly feel this might be the most serious issue.
if it really is so big, it might not be realistic to expect MI to solve it by himself. this is where you can help.
this is where anyone can help, on any issue people see with the site.
Quote from: NAiL on August 11, 2011, 05:05 PM
The difference between me and you is that I have been actively playing this game since 2005. You stopped playing actively when I started, you havent been a proper part of the community for the last 5 years, I have. You are a spectator, I am a participant
There's many things I don't like doing, and one's sounding like a brag when I'm talking seriously, but hey, you've managed, here's a serious response for you, no sarcasm involved:
You're basically saying I haven't been part of the community the last 5 years ignoring the fact that I have probably been in 5 different championship clans in the last 5 years and that I have been actively alpha testing WA at the same time.
Who do I talk to to be part of this community?
edit: I will admit I have been a bit disconnected from it all for the last two years whatsoever.
Quote from: DarkOne on August 11, 2011, 05:21 PM
(...)
there's many things I'm not complaining about that you seem to think I am (probably I'm at fault) my main and only concern is how TUS allows and gives retards all the tools necessary to become visible heads in this community as opposed to shutting them up, like they wish I did and how it inmediatly afters blames it on the evolution of community.
Stop throwing stones to other ceilings, yes, other leagues had their flaws, yes, future leagues will still have them, yes, you're a league and your only concern should be about games played, arcade flash games and shoutbox image sharing but that's not going to stop me from asking you guys to try and improve the enviroment, because a good enviroment promotes a good league, it enhances the quality of the games, the quality of the clans, the quality of the complaints, the quality of the playoffs and the quality of the forum.
I'm not saying you have a magic rod and you can fix it, but I won't just accept you can't do anything because humanity is what it is. It's a bad excuse.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:05 PM
there's many things I'm not complaining about that you seem to think I am (probably I'm at fault) my main and only concern is how TUS allows and gives retards all the tools necessary to become visible heads in this community as opposed to shutting them up, like they wish I did.
if it's your main/only concern, what's your honest suggestion? anything specific?
Quote from: franz on August 11, 2011, 08:09 PM
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:05 PM
there's many things I'm not complaining about that you seem to think I am (probably I'm at fault) my main and only concern is how TUS allows and gives retards all the tools necessary to become visible heads in this community as opposed to shutting them up, like they wish I did.
if it's your main/only concern, what's your honest suggestion? anything specific?
How about moderating the forum, for starters?
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on August 11, 2011, 04:12 PM
ropa you know I'm watching you the whole time, right?
Don't give us speeches about the quality of the topics while you just wander around filling threads with sarcasm with the illusion of truth.
There won't be the green dot this time.
Quote from: avirex on August 11, 2011, 08:11 PM
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on August 11, 2011, 04:12 PM
ropa you know I'm watching you the whole time, right?
Don't give us speeches about the quality of the topics while you just wander around filling threads with sarcasm with the illusion of truth.
There won't be the green dot this time.
What's your point exactly? Of course I would be included in said moderation, but as it stands if everyone is allowed to troll why shouldn't I?
Quote from: Husk on August 11, 2011, 06:41 PM
Quote from: DarkOne on August 11, 2011, 05:21 PM
Playoffs: http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
good memories
oh and I'm posting this (http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?p=19130&highlight=#19130), because I like Kiros' response xD and its the season 22 playoffs
Quote from: avirex on August 11, 2011, 08:11 PM
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on August 11, 2011, 04:12 PM
ropa you know I'm watching you the whole time, right?
Don't give us speeches about the quality of the topics while you just wander around filling threads with sarcasm with the illusion of truth.
There won't be the green dot this time.
If you have nothing to add to this topic, please, PLEASE, go and have a drink instead of doing this, you'll be my guest, I'm serious. >:(
And don't be doing this to ropa this one time when he doesn't do anything wrong but instead he's giving his opinion to help, if you don't like sarcasm and irony, follow the instructions mentioned in the first paragraph.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:17 PM...but as it stands if everyone is allowed to troll why shouldn't I?
Because you are smarter than that.
Why is ropa being bashed for trolling in addition to contributing to serious topics while most FoS people are trolling without contributing anything and get away with it just like that? Serious question.
So basically, you're saying we should mute every post/people that does not improve the league or make interresting debate ?
What a brillant idea for a video game website ! That's exactly what it is for !
I'm sure a new comer will enjoy it ! :-)
Im glad you didnt respond to anything I corrected you on, thats good, saves us going round in circles.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:00 PMWho do I talk to to be part of this community?
You dont talk to anybody, you participate.
You say you've been alpha testing, good for you. Last time I checked
most of the aplha testers were elitist douchebags who had the fortune of playing WA at a certain time in their lives.
Fact remains you havent been a part of the competitive worming community for the last 5 years, so as you've said you dont know whats gwaning in this community. You havent been hosting games, you're not familiar with many of the players, you're not aware of the scene.
You havent been participating, you've been occasionally checking the forums. This is fine, but dont preach like you know when you clearly dont.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:00 PM
edit: I will admit I have been a bit disconnected from it all for the last two years whatsoever.
Finally some humility, we're getting somewhere.
@Ray: I still fail to see how this is a serious issue. There is no mass complaining about people not understanding the rules. If there was mass complaining about people not understanding the rules then you'd have a point.... but there isnt.
Its pretty simple to explain how a league works:
Player A: How league work?
Player B: You pick a scheme, we play it, then I pick a scheme and we play that. If you win you report it on the site.
Player A: Oh ok, ty for telling me how the league works.
I really think the point your raising is subjective to your personal experience, how many times have you played with people who dont understand how the league works?
As Ive said already ive encountered this problem maybe once or twice in all my time playing TUS... if that.
Stop noob bashing if you keep playing people who are incapable of understanding a very simple system!
As you said practically nobody reads the rules, they simply learn as they play. There is nobody consistently playing TUS who doesnt understand how the "pick, pick, report" system works. On the rare occasion that somebody continues to ignorantly rule break then they will be told what they are doing wrong and they will stop! If they dont stop then its clear they are just abusing the system and they will be dealt with appropriately.
Seriously, how many examples can you give of a large problem with people not understanding the rules? Give me links to complaints, name names, give examples. I believe this to be a very minor issue that is rarely, if ever prevalent within the community.Even if it were a big problem as you are saying, you still havent offered any solutions. The only thing you could do is make the rules more clear and in more languages, even though ive already shown how quick and easy it is for somebody to explain how a league works. If they STILL dont understand, then frankly they're either lying or they're completely thick and we'd be better off without people like that in the community!
Pick, Pick, Report. Its extremely simple!
Quote from: NAiL on August 11, 2011, 09:57 PM
Player A: How league work?
To be honest, I don't see this part happening often enough.
Quote from: NAiL on August 11, 2011, 09:57 PM
You say you've been alpha testing, good for you. Last time I checked most of the aplha testers were elitist douchebags who had the fortune of playing WA at a certain time in their lives.
You know, alpha testers earned their way into the group, one way or another. I don't know which particular alpha testers you're talking about and frankly, I don't care. I don't recognise this description of yours of alpha testers at all.
Quote from: DarkOne on August 11, 2011, 10:10 PM
You know, alpha testers earned their way into the group, one way or another. I don't know which particular alpha testers you're talking about and frankly, I don't care. I don't recognise this description of yours of alpha testers at all.
How exactly do you "earn" your way into that group? By being a good player? By being friends with the guys who can allow you to be a tester? Im sorry but there is no denying there is an elitist section of this community. I wouldnt say something like that if I hadnt had the experiences ive had. Out of everyone you've probably known me for the longest D1, and you know I dont say things without cause to say them. Dont want to go any more off topic with that.
something that could be done, and help somehow is:
When the player register in the site, he/she receive an e-mail with some tips of how to act in the forum/league.
This could be written in the native language of player, it is easy to know cos when u register you choose the country, then i could help, writting a text in portuguese that would be sent to every new zilian who register in the site, and some old schoolers from others countries could do the same, it maybe would minimize the problems, but of course many peoples would not even read it...for for this..pacience, nothing is perfect.
Just a thought ae :)
^
All of the above (the entire thread) is exactly why I do not participate in leagues, cups, clans, tournaments, or anything else "official" anymore. Ever since I stopped giving a rat's ass about rankings or community credibility, my enjoyment of W:A has increased tremendously. Granted, it's still not as fun as it used to be (sorry, the community was a lot more fun 'back in the day'), but I still have a lot of fun ACTIVELY playing the game and improving my skills rather than involving myself with this malarky.
@Emails and tips idea:
As some of you mentioned, people are not so much into reading. But I think a "start page" for each part of the site with big link its essential sections could work. Some sections like "leagues rules" or "schemes rules" could be some useful links to find these faster.
@alpha tester:
Being an alpha tester can be quiet a title for many people. Someone like ropa famous to have a specific character in the community shouldn't be doing that or at least be allowed to announce he is at such position. Seeing that, could be a deal-breaker for many people, not to mention side effects like this:
Quote from: NAiL on August 11, 2011, 09:57 PM
You say you've been alpha testing, good for you. Last time I checked most of the aplha testers were elitist douchebags who had the fortune of playing WA at a certain time in their lives.
Quote from: NAiL on August 11, 2011, 09:57 PM
Fact remains you havent been a part of the competitive worming community for the last 5 years, so as you've said you dont know whats gwaning in this community. You havent been hosting games, you're not familiar with many of the players, you're not aware of the scene.
What scene? Your scene? You just proved to know nothing about the alpha testing, so maybe it's you who has been disconnected?
In the last 5 years, like I already said, I've been an active part of different clans who all were challenged for championship in the different leagues that have been hosted in these last half decade. Not only that, I was also staff in various leagues, also a part of the PX testing team, been following rubberworm development in #worms as well as keeping up with the happenings of the spanish LW community something that you'll never be able to grasp, language barriers in place.
I haven't been in AG hosting games, but I haven't hosted games since I changed from RDSI to ADSL, so what's your point? That I'm not aware of the new guys in the block, how exactly is that flawing my judgement?
Seriously Nail, what's your point? Are you implying that I have no authority to talk about the things I talk? You're the one who should excercise humilty here, stop using your keyboard and use your eyes, learn a few things, everyone wins.
I think you suffer from complexes Nail, you're trying hard (including making dates up) to prove that these last 5 years shouldn't count in my WA curriculum. I guess your goal is to somehow justify that you've played the same amount of WA as I had, but I still don't understand what you're trying to prove with it
MI: taking things personal much? Let me take the time to correct you anway. Your use of the term side ffect is wrong because Nail thought that way before I "announced" it as he stated it, therefore it's not a side effect but an effect that was already there, believe it or not I'm not the cause of all evil, so please stop missinforming with the only aim of giving me bad reputation.
As for the announcement, it's funny you out of all people say this, since i recall a couple of reports I've made in this same website and people complaining about not being able to watch the replay whilst others made said announcement you're claiming I'm now making for the first time.
Some words in this topic were true, some were not, decide yourselves. It's pathetic that this is the best this community can do on a forum, to have one person actually coming up with an idea (thank you nino) and others keep doing this... whatever the hell you are doing here.
Go on, keep doing this, I'll be out of this game.
And actually ropa was right, this forum should be moderated and these posts (including some of ropa's ;D) should be removed. Shame on you guys, 8 year olds do this there and back, nonsense, "trying to top the other and proove every single word wrong with a different view" bullshit.
Btw Nail, theres 4 leagues here not 3 ;) :P
I am seriously engrossed with the way ropa writes on this forum, he reminds me of Bill Hicks so much, comedy yet serious and learnful :)
And tbh, f@#! being a tester in any game lol, I ain't waiting my time/electricity testin shit when I can just wait and actually play it.
Quote from: Ryan on August 11, 2011, 07:42 PM
Quote from: Husk on August 11, 2011, 06:41 PM
Quote from: DarkOne on August 11, 2011, 05:21 PM
Playoffs: http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1427&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=150
good memories
oh and I'm posting this (http://www.laene.nl/fb/forum/viewtopic.php?p=19130&highlight=#19130), because I like Kiros' response xD and its the season 22 playoffs
Yeah, you eliminated me!
>:(
Quote from: ropa on August 12, 2011, 06:59 AM
What scene? Your scene? You just proved to know nothing about the alpha testing, so maybe it's you who has been disconnected?
In the last 5 years, like I already said, I've been an active part of different clans who all were challenged for championship in the different leagues that have been hosted in these last half decade. Not only that, I was also staff in various leagues, also a part of the PX testing team, been following rubberworm development in #worms as well as keeping up with the happenings of the spanish LW community something that you'll never be able to grasp, language barriers in place.
I haven't been in AG hosting games, but I haven't hosted games since I changed from RDSI to ADSL, so what's your point? That I'm not aware of the new guys in the block, how exactly is that flawing my judgement?
I wrote a long post before correcting you on all of the SHIT TALK that comes out of your mouth, so did Darkone, you couldnt come back to any of it.
I treat people with the same respect they show to ME.
You hijacked this thread. The original point of this thread was people not u understanding rules (which isnt a problem as ive shown, and ray you havent replied to me).
You have not been a part of the competative community for the last 5 years, you said it yourself. With regards to tus all you've done is pop in occasionally to post troll threads. When you get pulled up on the bullshit that you come out with, you dont respond to it, you change the subject and then you stop insulting people and try to act like a nice guy "who just wants to help out". You're so transparant ropa, anybody with half a brain can see you for what you are.
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 11:03 AM
You have not been a part of the competative community for the last 5 years, you said it yourself
So having played clanner playoffs as well as clanners until the birth of TUS, around two years ago means I haven't been part of the competitive community for 5 years.
I can't really debate when you make your own rules, like changing the value of numbers.
and you were active on XTC?
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 11:06 AM
and you were active on XTC?
you're kidding me, right?
Back up your claims and double check your "sources" or shut the hell up Nail, that's all the helpful advice I can offer you.
You already admit you havent been around for the last 2 years, and you havent been active for the last 5 as you were for the previous 5... thats the truth.
Now about the other bullshit you spouted,
Whats TUS propaganda?
If TUS is supposed to start moderating the forums it could start right here and tell you to not start a fight. Fair enough?
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 11:10 AM
You already admit you havent been around for the last 2 years, and you havent been active for the last 5 as you were for the previous 5... thats the truth.
Now about the other bullshit you spouted,
Whats TUS propaganda?
Why are you putting words in my mouth? You first said I haven't been a part of this community for the last 5 years, you then changed your oration and stated I haven't been part of the
competitive scene for the last 5 years and now you've changed it again to say I just were more active the first 5 years than the latest 5, in the middle also implying that I wasn't even active in XTC.
If there's one thing we can extract from all you say about me is that you have literally no idea about me.
I will refresh your memory though, or try to. I don't know if you remember than when you started playing you asked me numerous times to test your BR maps and I gladly did. Do you think you would have had the chance to ask me in #ag, meet me, and have me play your BR maps in a time were I wasn't active? Come on now, how else would I end up playing BR with someone who at the time was just a player trying to learn worms?
But even if what you said was right, which it isn't, you still haven't revealed what sort of argumentation you're trying to achieve with such statement, let's say I didn't play worms for the last 10 years, what does that change?
edit: I wonder if being one of the founders of the best clan TUS has ever seen in its lifetime doesn't warrant me being part of this new competitive scene you speak of? :(
I did not give you an answer NAiL because all you did was gave a different opinion about what I said. What should I do? The same thing you guys are doing here? I won't do that. The result of our conversation was that everyone could realize that you and me disagree. I will stick to the topic and as I said before, I will think about something, a plan, a solution, something, that - in my opinion - could make the site better.
It's another thing that in my view, I believe that those changes, that will hopefully be executed - will help and change the community. You don't think that, you don't see the need of that change, I do.
Master plan: simplify the website. Now start brainstorming and stop shittalking.
Quote from: ropa on August 12, 2011, 11:21 AM
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 11:10 AM
You already admit you havent been around for the last 2 years, and you havent been active for the last 5 as you were for the previous 5... thats the truth.
Now about the other bullshit you spouted,
Whats TUS propaganda?
Why are you putting words in my mouth? You first said I haven't been a part of this community for the last 5 years, you then changed your oration and stated I haven't been part of the competitive scene for the last 5 years and now you've changed it again to say I just were more active the first 5 years than the latest 5, in the middle also implying that I wasn't even active in XTC.
If there's one thing we can extract from all you say about me is that you have literally no idea about me.
I will refresh your memory though, or try to. I don't know if you remember than when you started playing you asked me numerous times to test your BR maps and I gladly did. Do you think you would have had the chance to ask me in #ag, meet me, and have me play your BR maps in a time were I wasn't active? Come on now, how else would I end up playing BR with someone who at the time was just a player trying to learn worms?
But even if what you said was right, which it isn't, you still haven't revealed what sort of argumentation you're trying to achieve with such statement, let's say I didn't play worms for the last 10 years, what does that change?
m8... I knew we played some games ages ago, doesnt change the fact that you havent been as active in the competative community in the last 5 years as I have. You've done some testing, cool, played the odd clanner, cool, you havent been a common face in wormnet like for example... Husk or SiD.
I hold a grudge at you for trolling TUS when it started. Ive only flamed 2 people on this forum.
Ill admit, you may have been more active than I thought, although you've still not been near TUS.
but m8... this is one point you raise, you still talk too much bullshit that you cant justify.
you couldnt come back to me on any of the other points I brought you up on (which I hope is because you realise you are wrong).
Its not the things you know about I have a problem with, its the things you assume and things you lie about.
again, what is "TUS propaganda"?
Quote from: Ray on August 12, 2011, 11:27 AM
I did not give you an answer NAiL because all you did was gave a different opinion about what I said. What should I do? The same thing you guys are doing here? I won't do that. The result of our conversation was that everyone could realize that you and me disagree. I will stick to the topic and as I said before, I will think about something, a plan, a solution, something, that - in my opinion - could make the site better.
It's another thing that in my view, I believe that those changes, that will hopefully be executed - will help and change the community. You don't think that, you don't see the need of that change, I do.
Master plan: simplify the website. Now start brainstorming and stop shittalking.
my point was that there is no problem, you are yet to prove there is a problem!
+@ ropa, whats TUS propaganda? (4th time)
I don't know where all this ropa hasn't been active in last 2 years cuz i've been playing him during the last few years, what is actually going on?
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:00 PM
edit: I will admit I have been a bit disconnected from it all for the last two years whatsoever.
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 12:27 PM
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 08:00 PM
edit: I will admit I have been a bit disconnected from it all for the last two years whatsoever.
That doesn't imply he hasn't been playing does it, in fact that quote doesn't really mean much, the fact is just because he hasn't been playing as much doesn't mean what he HAS done is less important or appreciated than usual.
ok mate
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 11:34 AMmy point was that there is no problem, you are yet to prove there is a problem!
I told you already what I thought was a problem. You don't think it is a problem. It's this simple. :)
Once again, doesn't change the fact that simplification on this site should be done.
Nail, you are right now guilty of the title of this thread based on this whole last 2 year thing, why are you taking this so personally, I never insulted you or anything so dunno why you being all cocky with the "ok mate" remark, and if you really are agreeing with me or something then I apologise but it's hard to tell when all you say is "ok mate" in a way people normally say it sarcastically.
Just cuz ropa hasn't been logged into WA online on WNet, he still posts on cFc forum, keeps in touch with friends, comes on now and again to play, like he says he does testing, theres more to being a part of the WA community and not just playing Leagues, in fact, the only good thing about Leagues nowadays is the fact there is so much drama on them, it keeps the game interesting.
Instead of bickering about how much someone else has played or how much they gave to the community we should be thanking them/praising them instead for the good things they HAVE done...
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 11:33 AM
again, what is "TUS propaganda"?
it's what you're doing right now, trying to put yourself above me because you've been in wormnet 24/7 for the last 5 years.
That's TUS propaganda, hyping what we have and putting down what we had. You need to reach a middle point, that'll come, eventually.
komo, why are you carrying on? I didnt retaliate to what you said, I said ok.
I admit I was wrong about ropas activity, but he hasnt been as active as he used to be, especially on TUS.
Oh btw komo, incase you missed it:
Quote from: NAiL on August 11, 2011, 05:05 PM
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMperhaps it's the most feature rich league, but that's not all there is to it.
So tell me what else there is to it... dont make brazen statements without any foundation.
As you said TUS is definitely the most feature rich league there has ever been, that is a good thing. I will admit that people are not as motivated to get PO games done as they used to be, but you cant blame TUS for that. This is an issue with the community at large, I guess people are not as eager to win POs as they used to be, this is noting to do with TUS. Is this a bad thing? Yes it is, but again this has nothing to do with the design of TUS or the way TUS is run. The mods do a good job of trying their hardest to encourage peoplento get games done at the end of the season.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMD1, stop making excuses, you're better than that, notice the vocal new school? They're not living in the shoutbox and posting internet images from 2002 because society has evolved into this, it's because quality is not demanded, it's not even recommended.
"Vocal new school"
You are talking about a MINORITY of TUS users who like to spam the shoutbox and post troll threads. I dont like this any more than you do, but again this is not a product of TUS, this is a product of the current community as you stated, so I dont see how this is relevant to the workings of TUS which is what this thread was originally about.
I also dont see how a handful of people spamming the shoutbox is a big deal. Remember when MrE was hacking everyone? Remember when you got hax? Thats a far more serious issue than a few adolescents posting images in the shoutbox, would you not agree?
Also you're guilty of trolling, you are a troll. You are smart and articulate but you lack tact ropa, you have no tact and thats a crying shame. Remember when TUS first started and you were running your mouth all over the place talking shit (check trash can). So you are not one to talk about spam and trolling, as you're as guilty as the rest of them.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMNail will tell you that this ain't a problem, as you see, he's one of the many examples of someone actually believing the TUS propaganda. The phenom known as being actively new school. What is it, you might ask? Well, TUS shields itself against any kind of progress that isn't populistic and this scheme of working things out is flawed from its conception.
I have already said I dont condone spam and trolling that has plagued TUS as of late, but this is a community issue, not a direct consequence of the workings of the league. This is a MINORITY of users and isnt a reflection of the vast majority of TUS users. So yes this ISNT an issue, not a serious one anyway, and certainly not one that cant be corrected if it did become a serious issue.
"NAiL actually believes the TUS propaganda"
...wtf are you talking about, "propaganda", seriously. List examples of so called "TUS propaganda"... wtf are you talking about? This is a prime example of the nonsense you come out with sometimes.
I dont properly understand your last sentence, but TUS does not shield itself from progress, TUS is the only example of a league where the users can openly criticise and suggest new features... AND THEY WILL BE LISTENED TO! This is wonderful, this is democracy and this makes for a diverse and exciting number of ways to enjoy competitive games.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMWhy? Because if you're going to be a populistic authority, ideally you'd want the people to be insightful to the topics you're presenting them. But when you do nothing to educate them then I can't help but think things are being done wrong.
If you're talking about the league rules not being clear enough, or the design of TUS being quite maze like then I would agree. But again, this is not a serious issue, this does not affect the vast majority of TUS users. Most people know how the league works and most people who dont know will eventually learn, this isnt a serious issue but there is no harm in making the rules and workings clearer.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMThe best league WA has ever had? How are you measuring it, Nail? Games played? Well, it's also the league with the most complaints, probably the second league with the most bans. And not to mention other things that you probably can't grasp them being TUS fault, things like, lack of clan competitiveness, lack of motivation for Playoff completion, lack of debate in the forums and basically lack of everything other than playing games.
Yeah thats right, the best league WA has ever had. Three different leagues, cups, challenges, maps, files, tournaments, statistical analysis and comparison of a players performance.. Its also the most active league there has been thus complaints will rise proportionally, thats another irrelevant point. As to bans, how many people are permanently banned. Zero? I remember being banned numerous times from FB and im a nice guy.
The difference between me and you is that I have been actively playing this game since 2005. You stopped playing actively when I started, you havent been a proper part of the community for the last 5 years, I have. You are a spectator, I am a participant. You dont take part in competitive games any more, I do. You are an observer who likes to cast judgement and provoke reaction. You will often raise good points although you also make points that have no foundation and are based more on personal bias rather than actual facts, which is sad.
We agree on the fact that a lack of competitiveness (especially with regards to PO games) is a community issue, it has nothing to do with TUS, it was the same with XTC, its been like this for the last half decade, again, its a community issue and has nothing to do with the design of the league.
Let me make clear, I ACCEPT, that for you, and many other people, the golden age of worming is over. I UNDERSTAND, that back in the day everyone was more competitive and it was quite an achievement to win a season. The thing is, its not 2004, its 2011, things have changed. The community has changed since then, things are more diverse now, priorities are different. Dont confuse community issues with the workings of the league and dont assume its the league that determines the mind state of the community. A douche will be a douche whether he is told not to be or not.
Quote from: ropa on August 11, 2011, 07:20 AMNice league indeed, as for its actual value to the community: other leagues have done infintely more
Infinitely more? Thats quite a statement, but can you actually back it up with examples of how other leagues have done "Infinitely more"?
I dont think you can, because its unfounded trash talk.
No other league creator has been as dedicated to their league as MI is. No other league has taken on criticism and suggestions and made them both tangible and functional like TUS has. TUS is standing the test of time and the site is constantly improving, I see no major problems with TUS.
The ORIGINAL POINT of this thread was about people not understanding how the league works, this is not a major issue and it certainly isnt unresolvable. In the years ive been playing TUS ive had a problem with people not understanding how the league works... maybe once or twice, and thats to be expected.
Do you really think thousands of games would be consistently played each month if TUS was doing something seriously wrong?
There was a lot more I brought ropa up on, stuff he hasnt responded to.
Stop butting in, ropa is a big boy and can respond himself, stop ass licking.
Ray, you still havent provided any evidence that this is a problem, only anecdotal evidence!
Ropa, thats complete bullshit.
There are only 2 wormers Ive flamed on this forum, you and komo, thats because you both chat shit at times.
You still havent explained what TUS propaganda is. Even if I were trying to put you down, that wouldnt be an example of propaganda because I am an independent body.
You think TUS propaganda is NAiL... lol. Weak, best you could do?
What you actually said was: "NAiL is actually believing the TUS propaganda".This means I am believing something I am being told, but then you say I am the source of the propaganda... can you not see how OBVIOUS it is that you're making things up as you go along.
What about Darkone? He owned you, is he responsible for TUS propaganda too?
WHEN DID I ONCE PUT DOWN ANYTHING "YOU HAD"?
All ive done is defend TUS.
Stop lying.
How have other leagues done "infinitely more" for the community?
I gave you an example of the term I was refering to, isn't that enough to know what I'm talking about? TUS propaganda is hyping up what we have and putting down what we had. Sounds like a clear enough explanation for me, it's a term I made up, so if I use you as an example to explain what it means, you know what you gotta do? live with it. You are one of TUS's biggest lawyers, you are the one constantly putting down anything that has anything to do with the term "Oldschool", you make up claims, you spread misinformation. That's propaganda, the one Hitler used to do, I'm not calling you a nazi I'm just saying you're really bad at being objective.
As for other leagues doing more, well, they have done infinitely more in keeping forums an interesting place to visit. You might not grasp the importance of forums in a community but you only have to ask if you want to hear what I think in that respect.
As for Komo ass licking? Why do you insist in talking about people you clearly have no idea about? Komo speaks his mind, and he's given me the kick in the balls many times, but you can't blame him for agreeing with what I'm saying these days, it's no coincidence, he knows what I'm talking about because he was there.
Ropa, you say TUS propaganda is people downplaying what we had.
When did I ever do that?
These forums are intresting, or do you only visit to bash people?
edit: i'm not bothering anymore
nono
again, when did I bash what "you had"?
I bashed you yeh, I didnt bash previous leagues, I only defended TUS.
*haha you removed your post, u fail hard
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 01:18 PM
*haha you removed your post, u fail hard
Some people bash me for arguing, some others bash me for not wanting to argue, I've come to understand that you just can't defeat jealousy.
ziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing
so we agree, I didnt bash previous leagues, only you.
good.
Im willing to stop now, I offer an outstretched hand ===:-
there's no way I'm going to touch you without the use of gloves
ty testing my maps <3
ropa is reminding me of what komo was about 6 months ago...
the annoying guy in every topic of ever thread, bickering, and contradicting half of everthing he sez and just looking for a debate wherever he can get it... thank god komo has put it to rest.. but i think we now have a bigger pest.
and komo, nail is right you are here licking ass, for you to say you have been playing with ropa actively for 2 years is a bunch of bullshit, i remember i believe it was in the shoutbox where you were so glad ropa came back to w:a to have some games.. and you were glad he was participating again in ur spanish clan...
i really dont see the point nail has on if ropa has been active or not... but i dont care tbh, this whole thread went to shit and the only one with any thing constructive to say was a FoS member, how ironic :D
The smartness WAR revenge xDDDD
Not the first time ropa and nail goes at eachother ^^ a comic by ropa is at its place after this
Quote from: avirex on August 12, 2011, 02:52 PM
ropa is reminding me of what komo was about 6 months ago...
the annoying guy in every topic of ever thread, bickering, and contradicting half of everthing he sez and just looking for a debate wherever he can get it... thank god komo has put it to rest.. but i think we now have a bigger pest.
and komo, nail is right you are here licking ass, for you to say you have been playing with ropa actively for 2 years is a bunch of bullshit, i remember i believe it was in the shoutbox where you were so glad ropa came back to w:a to have some games.. and you were glad he was participating again in ur spanish clan...
i really dont see the point nail has on if ropa has been active or not... but i dont care tbh, this whole thread went to shit and the only one with any thing constructive to say was a FoS member, how ironic :D
avirex, myself and ropa both have the guts to say what we feel and think no matter how many cocky people like you interpret it wrongly, misunderstand or just simply don't like the fact someone has a different opinion than you.
Of course I was glad ropa came back to play, I hadn't heard from him for at least 2-3 months, in a community like this people don't usually dissapear for that long without a single "keep in touch" post, you don't even know what you are talking about, you are so desperate to troll and make people angry you ALWAYS assume everything in a way that benefits yourself and you try to humiliate people, why should I ever have to explain myself to someone who NEVER tries to understand let alone listen in the 1st place.
Why is it, whenever you disagree with someone, you gotta start swearing and insulting, you think it's so cool, I dunno how anyone can ever take you serious, It's weird how I ain't insulting people and swearing at them yet I put my views down in an insightful way, then someone like you comes along and starts swearing and cursing, grow up?
Edit:
avi, I think your signature proves our point you are nothing but a useless f@#!ing troll as far as TuS Forums are concerned.
yes, i said "licking ass" "bullshit" and "the thread went to shit"
when did i insult you, or swear directly at you???
its funny how you say you dont do swear or insult.... then you go ahead and say "useless f@#!ing troll" directed at me... your a funny guy.
and most people take me light hearted and laugh along with me, if you have not noticed.
there is a reason i was voted #3 coolest wormer, i was only knocked down to #4 after dark1 excepted my late vote because i was in jail... i voted crazy, and he took my spot.. how modest of me eh?
and FoS was voted #1 w:a community
and yes komo... it takes extreme guts to say what u feel on the internet, +1 you brave soldier
Quote from: avirex on August 12, 2011, 11:28 PM
yes, i said "licking ass" "bullshit" and "the thread went to shit"
when did i insult you, or swear directly at you???
its funny how you say you dont do swear or insult.... then you go ahead and say "useless f@#!ing troll" directed at me... your a funny guy.
and most people take me light hearted and laugh along with me, if you have not noticed.
there is a reason i was voted #3 coolest wormer, i was only knocked down to #4 after dark1 excepted my late vote because i was in jail... i voted crazy, and he took my spot.. how modest of me eh?
and FoS was voted #1 w:a community
and yes komo... it takes extreme guts to say what u feel on the internet, +1 you brave soldier
So you're bragging about what a bunch of 13 year olds in the internet think of you?
you know as well as i do that the majority of w:a is in their 20's..
and yes, im bragging :D im proud!! im just a kid from the getto according to you, i have something to live for now.
Quote from: avirex on August 12, 2011, 11:28 PMblah blah blah I shave my balls and dropped the soap n jail yahdy yahdy yah
I only swear at people when they start swearing 1st, usually, I ain't perfect, no one is, but I usually do keep cool longer than the other person I only respond to them, so what.
avi, you have the most trollish sig on WA right now, and you honestly think it's clever to call us trolls?
let me take a screen shot of you saying your not perfect.. because this is a first...
and i happen to love my sig.. wtf is wrong with it?
and anyway, im not going to respond to you anymore, your boring... u spend all f@#!ing day at TuS site and on w:a.. at any given moment of any day when i come to tus site you are here.. aint there anythin else to do in scottland? get a life "mate"
Quote from: avirex on August 13, 2011, 01:24 AM
let me take a screen shot of you saying your not perfect.. because this is a first...
and i happen to love my sig.. wtf is wrong with it?
and anyway, im not going to respond to you anymore, your boring... u spend all f@#!ing day at TuS site and on w:a.. at any given moment of any day when i come to tus site you are here.. aint there anythin else to do in scottland? get a life "mate"
I sit producing music for sometimes 12-16 hours on end on my days off when I have no plans, It helps fill in the time, I find inspiration from many places my uninformed friend.
well, im glad tus and w:a inspires you...
lets just stop bickering now, its getting old and boring, i know you would love to continue, but im done... gday mate!
Fine by me :)
Talking about inspiration from places, I found some inspiration in TuS within the music thread for this track I am working on:
http://www.mediafire.com/?qf9v1dbl2o3dt35
Quote from: NAiL on August 12, 2011, 12:58 PM
What about Darkone? He owned you, is he responsible for TUS propaganda too?
I did? :)
I kind of thought we came to an understanding. I made some good points, he made some good points.
TUS is not perfect. Ropa's posts usually come on a bit strongly, so he should expect people to become a bit defensive. But this doesn't mean that he doesn't make good points.
Perhaps a bit more forum moderation would be appropriate, but you have to understand that we don't want a repeat of the downfall of fb; I recall calling moderators biased in a high percentage of decision making was a hobby amongst a lot of wormers back in the day, and to be honest, I'm not looking forward to a triupmhant return of that habit.
We do hand out forum bans btw, even if we don't make announcements about them.
Quote from: DarkOne on August 13, 2011, 09:27 PM
Perhaps a bit more forum moderation would be appropriate, but you have to understand that we don't want a repeat of the downfall of fb
I just want to point 1 thing here, which i believe wasnt one of the downfall reasons of fb - Reputation system.
Lately (actually allways, but lately in its peak) its the source of more than half trolling scenarios that happened on TUS. It must be some really important feature since you didnt remove it yet, but let me ask you few questions:
1. Whats TUS reputation system and how it works?
2. Whats the profit of this?
3. How accurate is this?
4. Whos allowed to use the applaud/smite power and for what reason?
5. What could be better/worse without this system?
^
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/tus-discussion/karma-system/
No offence but i didnt ask you, i didnt ask for the link to some poll, and i dont care what the mayority voted in that poll. Those simple questions were targetted to TUS staff and im willing to couter it as soon as i get answers (if i wont be happy ofc).
There's no real useful purpose for the karma system it's just another distraction to promote irrelevant forum activity.
Quote from: lacoste on August 14, 2011, 08:37 AM
No offence but i didnt ask you, i didnt ask for the link to some poll, and i dont care what the mayority voted in that poll. Those simple questions were targetted to TUS staff and im willing to couter it as soon as i get answers (if i wont be happy ofc).
oO
Posted that because I thought you might find it interesting, also most people voted to change the karma system.
Quote from: NAiL on August 14, 2011, 10:50 AM
most people voted to change the karma system.
Since when is 46,2% majority?
thats true, but what I mean to say is more people want to change the karma system (or remove it), now.
Rating posts (thumbs up/down) is a way better system. For instance it would get rid of uninteresting posts (if there are enough thumbs down). In fact Karma is a pretty childish system and no other community/forum I visit uses this. I don't care if a poster has Karma -100 or +200. The only thing that matters is the substance of the postings and people use the Karma system to bring their little personal problems with someone to the forum with that.
i find it pretty funny that anyone even cares about the karma. it does not bother me one way or the other... why are you guys putting so much thought into a number?
that all it is, is a silly number.. everyone knows that number is not a true representation of the person.. so who cares? its just a number get over it
Quote from: avirex on August 14, 2011, 05:22 PM
i find it pretty funny that anyone even cares about the karma. it does not bother me one way or the other... why are you guys putting so much thought into a number?
that all it is, is a silly number.. everyone knows that number is not a true representation of the person.. so who cares? its just a number get over it
to be honest avirex, how much thought does it need to be put into it to realize it's useless? probably the same amount you put into your post-
and thats why you and everyone else keeps discussing it... gotcha
Quote from: DeathInFire on August 14, 2011, 04:58 PM
Rating posts (thumbs up/down) is a way better system. For instance it would get rid of uninteresting posts (if there are enough thumbs down).
Hm.. that would only lead to a censorship against people with controversial opinions (there are a lot of those here, be it because they actually have a controversial opinion or they just want to be controversial ;)). Actually i don't think censoring posts is useful in any way, people should stand up to what they write and it should be visible for others to judge themselves what they think of it.
I don't care much about karma system either though... if it was for me it could just be erased and it wouldn't be missed much. Everyone browsing these forums frequently should have made up his mind about people posting here anyway. Checking people's karma could even lead ultimately to swim with the stream regarding sympathy/antipathy with every little beep a person makes.
Quote from: chakkman on August 14, 2011, 07:55 PM
Quote from: DeathInFire on August 14, 2011, 04:58 PM
Rating posts (thumbs up/down) is a way better system. For instance it would get rid of uninteresting posts (if there are enough thumbs down).
Hm.. that would only lead to a censorship against people with controversial opinions (there are a lot of those here, be it because they actually have a controversial opinion or they just want to be controversial ;)). Actually i don't think censoring posts is useful in any way, people should stand up to what they write and it should be visible for others to judge themselves what they think of it.
I don't care much about karma system either though... if it was for me it could just be erased and it wouldn't be missed much. Everyone browsing these forums frequently should have made up his mind about people posting here anyway. Checking people's karma could even lead ultimately to swim with the stream regarding sympathy/antipathy with every little beep a person makes.
I think you didn't quite know what this thumbs up/down system looks like!
When a post gets a certain # of "thumbs down" it gets hidden. Everyone is free to decide if he wants to see such posts or not. :)
And I try to look at every post objective, doesn't matter if it's a post from x or y. If the thread is interesting everything contributing to it should be as well. This personal off-topic is what kills many threads in my opinion, the people know who they are. :P
Quote from: avirex on August 14, 2011, 05:22 PM
i find it pretty funny that anyone even cares about the karma. it does not bother me one way or the other... why are you guys putting so much thought into a number?
that all it is, is a silly number.. everyone knows that number is not a true representation of the person.. so who cares? its just a number get over it
Quote from: avirex on August 14, 2011, 06:00 PM
and thats why you and everyone else keeps discussing it... gotcha
Funny, you are the mastermind behind the "let's troll komo" karma invasion... And also you are the one who kept asking people to applaud you.
It's easy to find out who is smiting you when you continously refresh and check the "spy on us" section, but then again, I am clever, you are not.
oooo jeez im so sick of bickering with you...
but cfc is the original organization of exploiting the karma system.... check out daina and lalo's karma... lalos karma is nearly half as high as his post count, and dainas is 67 out of 84 posts... your clan always applaud each other out of nowhere, and i remember you were the biggest forum pest ever, you karma was like +40.. it was not because you were being applauded for wisdom, or humor.. it was because cfc was giving you thumbs up your ass.
i also remember when som1 alias lalo, just to see what you would say... and you being as "clever" as you say you are, had no idea... and PM'd him... "hey man!! go smite avirex!!! plzplzplz and +1 me too" lol that was pretty funny.. good times...
and just for the record, i am not the mastermind of trolling you... and never ask for +karma... i could give a shit less... MI can own me like he did peja i dont really care...
but can we stop with the pointless bickering you little bitch? thnx
Funny, cuz I actually asked "lalo" to smite you, but to NOT applaud me.
Yeah you ain't the mastermind, in fact, you've never done anything to troll me or b2b before.
Ah good times, you two going in each thread, ignoring the whole topic and continuing your war. I'm in guys, lets repeat history? (This time I won't warn though)
thats why i did not respond to him MI... not worth it...
tbh, i think you should ban us both... we both deserve it.
Ok avi and komo ill be the priest in this shit. You both are married, end of history xD
Quote from: avirex on August 15, 2011, 07:18 AM
oooo jeez im so sick of bickering with you...
but cfc is the original organization of exploiting the karma system.... check out daina and lalo's karma... lalos karma is nearly half as high as his post count, and dainas is 67 out of 84 posts... your clan always applaud each other out of nowhere, and i remember you were the biggest forum pest ever, you karma was like +40.. it was not because you were being applauded for wisdom, or humor.. it was because cfc was giving you thumbs up your ass.
i also remember when som1 alias lalo, just to see what you would say... and you being as "clever" as you say you are, had no idea... and PM'd him... "hey man!! go smite avirex!!! plzplzplz and +1 me too" lol that was pretty funny.. good times...
and just for the record, i am not the mastermind of trolling you... and never ask for +karma... i could give a shit less... MI can own me like he did peja i dont really care...
but can we stop with the pointless bickering you little bitch? thnx
don't generalize, I, for instance, have never applauded or smited anyone that I can remember
Were those questions i asked too hard to answer or you just ignored it, TUS staff?
Sorry lacoste:
1. Whats TUS reputation system and how it works?
Basically giving/taking points to people for their post or their personality.
2. Whats the profit of this?
In the very first month of creation TUS, people asked for it. They liked the "game".
3. How accurate is this?
It is not accurate. But on many some cases can tell you something about the guy.
4. Whos allowed to use the applaud/smite power and for what reason?
Everybody can. Although we can take their power away.
5. What could be better/worse without this system?
Less drama without it which is good to me. Can't think of anything bad about removing it right now :)
We need a global poll for karma, to remove it once for all. (Which there will be)
1. Whats TUS reputation system and how it works?
Basically giving/taking points to people for their post or their personality.Basically it is, other than that its just a toy which leads only to abuse (especialy on gaming forum).
2. Whats the profit of this?
In the very first month of creation TUS, people asked for it. They liked the "game".Theres no profit, only unnecessary mess.
3. How accurate is this?
It is not accurate. But on many some cases can tell you something about the guy.I agree, but are those few cases out of xxx active users the reason to keep it? Anyway, everyone has their personal oppinion about everyone, noone should have the right to bash other users with number or applaud friends for the sake of popularity contest. Potential uninformed people will be messed up. There is many people who contributed a lot to W:A who are inperceptible under wave of people who are just around applauding each other every day. It has nothing to do with the "reputation". I personally think its even kinda offensive from TUS.
4. Whos allowed to use the applaud/smite power and for what reason?
Everybody can. Although we can take their power away.Everybody can do whatever they want. Some can give reasonable points which will be destroyed by people who are playing the game of applauds and smites. Again, unnecessary mess.
5. What could be better/worse without this system?
Less drama without it which is good to me. Can't think of anything bad about removing it right now :)Exactly. Also, drama in topics wont be the only problem fixed.
QuoteWe need a global poll for karma, to remove it once for all. (Which there will be)
Polls have nothing to do with whats right and whats not in such cases. I can asure you noone will cry when you take it away. Even if there will be few people who will cry, would you wipe their tears? I hope not.
Quote from: lacoste on August 15, 2011, 02:03 PM
QuoteWe need a global poll for karma, to remove it once for all. (Which there will be)
Polls have nothing to do with whats right and whats not in such cases. I can asure you noone will cry when you take it away. Even if there will be few people who will cry, would you wipe their tears? I hope not.
TUS is democracy lacoste, people should be given the chance to vote on it, not decided by one man. You would have liked FB
lacost, what was the point of wanting his answer so badly, if you were just going to try to correct him? lol
you have your opinion, and im not saying its far off... but why does anyone care?..
i could give a shit one way or the other tbh, if karma system is taken away right now, i would not feel any different.
however, if the poll goes up to keep it or not, i would be in favor of keeping it :D
Quote from: avirex on August 15, 2011, 04:40 PM
lacost, what was the point of wanting his answer so badly, if you were just going to try to correct him? lol
I wanted to know how they see the whole reputation thing (the TUS staff obviously, coz at the end they decide what to put and what to remove), coz keeping it for so long must mean something. Whats so lollish in that? And i only elaborated the most obvious things that anyone should already know. Theres nothing positive in keeping reputation system and im glad MI also see it that way.
Crazy: I dont mind, really, but this very matter shouldnt go with democracy, seriously. For me, its like making poll if we want porn section on tus - some people would vote yes coz they believe it should be on / find it interesting to have, other ones voted even if they dont know what porn is and many people would vote yes just for the laught, plus theres still a lot of people who dont care and someone asked them to vote - at the end we have 80% yes'es. Would that pass over?
Quote from: ropa on August 15, 2011, 07:06 PM
Quote from: Crazy on August 15, 2011, 04:17 PM
TUS is democracy
Who decides that it is?
I guess MI, quite democratic.
But jokes aside, TUS lacks some balls (in a positive way). :)
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on August 15, 2011, 01:10 PM...
We need a global poll for karma, to remove it once for all. (Which there will be)
MI mate, just remove it yourself once and for all, U don't need a freakin' poll for everything here...
Get some responsibility ffs, democracy sux ass when there's a heavy weight banditos as fos guys are, who can press their mouse buttons more than all of majority here... double accounts and all of that shit.. Can't U see that U have a deal with organized haters?
f@#!.