The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Worms: Armageddon => General discussion => Wormkit Modules => Topic started by: Albus on September 09, 2021, 09:57 AM
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A lot of discussion is going on around wkWormOrder and the idea of a module that would work as a weapon usage tracker. You can see the details at:
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/wkwormorder-v-1-0-1-released-33536/
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon-promotion-project/(module-idea)-weapon-usage-tracker-33562/
WkWormOrder, already published, allows you to see the sequence of YOUR team. However, there are people who support the idea that this module also allows you to see the sequence of the enemy team, something that is generating greater controversy.
The other idea, would be a module to allow you to see what weapons the enemy used.
I do not want to go into the merits of the discussion here, as this is being discussed in these topics.
There is a possible reality in this scenario: since people are facing obstacles to play the game, publicly, in the way they find most pleasurable (which they don't think is wrong and would just make the game more enjoyable), we should consider the possibility of these people making private modules etc. If they do not have technical knowledge, they can also hiring someone to do it.
But the problem is that, even if someone does it, although I don't consider it cheating1 or that they will have a relevant advantage against me, I wouldn't want to play against someone who has access to things like that while I don't. As a competitive player, I think I would be entitled to know if anyone is using something like that.
So, what can people like me (who play competitively and don't want to be in that situation) do in this situation?
1 I don't consider cheating because the person just found out a way to access the same information in an even easier way than the existing ones (in the topics mentioned, several practical methods of getting the order of the enemy team and tracking the weapons usage were listed). That person would be having access to the same information that other people have access only with the difference of being something more practical.
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As you say, a coder could quickly knock up a module that privately displays all team worm order in-game, weapon use and more besides, without detection. Chances are, over the years someone has already done this kind of thing and used it privately or shared it between friends/clan members.
I think it's great that there's a mod framework in WA and there has been some amazing work. But I see the predicament with cup/league games. I think it should ideally be a level playing field; the same agreed setup on all sides. Even things like using transparent water should be consistent IMO. I'm not saying these mods shouldn't be used in cup/league games, but their use should be set out by the organisor who may very well allow certain modules, to save having to memorise / write things down for example.
To your question, and the problem... enforcement. It's all on trust at the moment. It would need a technical solution to allow participants and organisors to verify mod use, likely in the form of an official update. It may not be infallible, but enough to get the desired result if implemented well.
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To be honest, I think it's about time wk modules in general should be approved by Team17, being mandatory.
They made the game, they should have the final say, then and only then would I accept it. Of course the point being right now I have no choice but to accept it, nobody does.
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Would Team17 even get involved/care? I'm assuming they approved the WormKit framework when it was created so they were fine with the idea of modding. It would probably land with Deadcode to determine what (if anything) to do.
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Would Team17 even get involved/care? I'm assuming they approved the WormKit framework when it was created so they were fine with the idea of modding. It would probably land with Deadcode to determine what (if anything) to do.
I've never actually thought about that, did Team17 actually approve the WormKit framework, or did people just do it?
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From what I can see it started as an external tool released in 2006 by CS. Back then you'd run 'WormKit.exe' rather than 'WA.exe' to load the game with wk*.dll modules. From WA v3.7, this functionality was officially integrated into the game. My understanding is that Team 17 need to approve all updates by DC/CS before release. The update documentation can be found in the WA install folder.
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To be honest, i'd be incredibly surprised if they did care.
They didn't do anything about official rankings, so I doubt they'd care about leagues unrelated directly to Team17, even if they are very respected by a huge part of the community.
I personally didn't use wk modules until 3.7 or later, even then still thought it wasn't weird until actually it was integrated like it is now with 3.8.
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I'm not sure there's anything special about 3.8 (over 3.7) in terms of loading custom modules. The ability to develop and load your own modules goes back to 2006 (and before if someone 'hacks' the game or creates their own loader). Obviously a lot more community modules exist now and IMO we're much better off for it.
Of course there could potentially be modules blatantly used for cheating, but then there's grey area stuff which probably isn't worth arguing over. 'wkRemapKeys' and 'wkFKeyRearrange' may give an advantage to a player because it makes them more efficient with keyboard controls and weapon order - while their opponent may not be aware of them... would you want to remove those modules from league/cup games? A module that reminds you of your own worm order? I don't think it's that big a deal personally.
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I'm not sure there's anything special about 3.8 (over 3.7) in terms of loading custom modules. The ability to develop and load your own modules goes back to 2006 (and before if someone 'hacks' the game or creates their own loader). Obviously a lot more community modules exist now and IMO we're much better off for it.
Of course there could potentially be modules blatantly used for cheating, but then there's grey area stuff which probably isn't worth arguing over. 'wkRemapKeys' and 'wkFKeyRearrange' may give an advantage to a player because it makes them more efficient with keyboard controls and weapon order - while their opponent may not be aware of them... would you want to remove those modules from league/cup games? A module that reminds you of your own worm order? I don't think it's that big a deal personally.
I share the same opinion. I don't see the reason for not realeasing a module to automate what some players already can do manually. We should either make it available to everyone or encrypt replays in the next update so people who are more tech savvy don't have an extra advantage over casual pc user, because extracting team order from live recording replay is some hacking effort not gonna lie.
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I don't see the reason for not realeasing a module to automate what some players already can do manually.
So we should just give everyone TA then and let them use it in online games?
Let's hire Boston Dynamics to create AI that just plays the game for us, since we already can do that manually, though, let's just do it automatically because some people are lazy lol.
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If whatever can be done manually is considered an unfair advantage, I don't think mods should then be created that do that automatically.
For example, some players manually change their water gfx to make it transparent so they can see exactly where the land meets the water. If just one player does that, I'd consider that a form of cheating (they have an advantage, however small, over everyone else). If everyone does it, that's technically fair but it's also just dumbed down a part of the game. A mod could be created for that but I don't think it should be.
I feel the same way about knowing opponent worm order from the start of the game. That's a dynamic within the game scheme that should work as intended. Knowing just your own worm order is different because it's information you already have available to you and I imagine most people won't need / use it.
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I am in favor of respecting the players' autonomy. If two players agree to use the module, or allow the other to use it, no one should bother, even if it's in a league game.
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Historically W:A has mostly been a game of trust and good sportsmanship. It does seem like the use of wormkit modules could get out of hand, but honestly at this point the competitive scene of W:A is pretty casual, with only a few cups and tournaments even having prize pools at all. What's the big deal if someone goes through all the trouble to use a module that gives them a slight advantage? If it starts making the game less fun for people it should be addressed, but being overly principled about it doesn't really move the community forward. I think in general the benefits of wormkit modules being released at a rapid rate outweigh the cost currently. Some of them motivate features to be added to the core game and some of them are huge quality of life improvements. I personally only really use wkSuperFrontendHD right now and tend to prefer using officially supported features, but I don't really have a problem with opponents using modules that remap keys or show my team's worm order.
For the worm order one, the fact that players can (and do) make worm names that all render the same as an empty space in-game means that there should be an in-game option to disable user-set names. It would then default to Worm{1-8}, which effectively shows turn order. I really don't think that impacts the game negatively in any way. Writing worm order on a sheet of paper or having to memorize different teams you've played with before is a lame "skill" that really just gets in the way of everyone enjoying the deeper strategy involved.
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Also, we really shouldn't be discouraging programmers who are interested in w:a to get involved by making modules or external tools unless it's going to really hurt the game. It's creative and talented people who have kept this community alive for so long!
I'm passionate about that fact because working on W:A community websites and tools when I was a kid was actually what got me excited about programming that ultimately led to my profession.
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If whatever can be done manually is considered an unfair advantage, I don't think mods should then be created that do that automatically.
For example, some players manually change their water gfx to make it transparent so they can see exactly where the land meets the water. If just one player does that, I'd consider that a form of cheating (they have an advantage, however small, over everyone else). If everyone does it, that's technically fair but it's also just dumbed down a part of the game. A mod could be created for that but I don't think it should be.
I feel the same way about knowing opponent worm order from the start of the game. That's a dynamic within the game scheme that should work as intended.
I agree with all that, well said.
Knowing just your own worm order is different because it's information you already have available to you and I imagine most people won't need / use it.
A real example would be how tita plays CWT(which is actually allowed by the way).
Players are allowed to make new teams right before the match begins, though, considering the games are scheduled between players in advance, and even though tita makes a new team, only a fool would make a new team without at least noting down their own team order or creating the names in a way that you can memorize easy.
What's the big deal if someone goes through all the trouble to use a module that gives them a slight advantage?
The big deal is many people tend to think only in the moment, they don't contemplate what these decisions could lead to in the future.
Once we've reached a precipice, and the flood gates are open, things could get out of hand exponentially, which is why I personally think it would be best for Team17 to officially manage wormkit modules in future, if at all possible.
For the worm order one, the fact that players can (and do) make worm names that all render the same as an empty space in-game means that there should be an in-game option to disable user-set names. It would then default to Worm{1-8}, which effectively shows turn order. I really don't think that impacts the game negatively in any way.
Using blank names is not allowed in TUS, correct me if i'm wrong though i'm sure it's not allowed in CWT or ONL either.
Writing worm order on a sheet of paper or having to memorize different teams you've played with before is a lame "skill" that really just gets in the way of everyone enjoying the deeper strategy involved.
Although that is a subjective opinion, to be fair, i'd rather people didn't do that if possible, though I feel it's a much better alternative to having the game automatically track your opponents teams and weapons.
Also, we really shouldn't be discouraging programmers who are interested in w:a to get involved by making modules or external tools unless it's going to really hurt the game. It's creative and talented people who have kept this community alive for so long!
I'm passionate about that fact because working on W:A community websites and tools when I was a kid was actually what got me excited about programming that ultimately led to my profession.
I'm all for supporting developers, though as i've said before in the other relative threads, you cannot expect people to accept everything, there will be individual projects that people don't like, most people here have their own idea of what is good and bad for the game.
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The big deal is many people tend to think only in the moment, they don't contemplate what these decisions could lead to in the future.
Once we've reached a precipice, and the flood gates are open, things could get out of hand exponentially, which is why I personally think it would be best for Team17 to officially manage wormkit modules in future, if at all possible.
T17 isn't going to get involved in any way, they don't care about W:A. Deadcode may want to intervene and I suppose I would be fine with that. The main downside is that he would probably need to make changes to the game to make it harder to use approved wormkit modules, and that's precious time that could be spent working on other cool features!
Using blank names is not allowed in TUS, correct me if i'm wrong though i'm sure it's not allowed in CWT or ONL either.
Even if blank names aren't allowed, you can just make names that are sufficiently difficult to distinguish.. it's just an obnoxious part of the game. I hardly ever see people abuse it, but I would also welcome the ability to disable opponents' customizations.
Although that is a subjective opinion, to be fair, i'd rather people didn't do that if possible, though I feel it's a much better alternative to having the game automatically track your opponents teams and weapons.
We could put a poll out but I'm guessing I'm not the minority in thinking that managing worms turn order is kind of a tedious and lame part of the game, especially when you bring in hard-to-differentiate or offensive worm names.
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I should clarify my last point in that I don't think knowing which worm is up next is a boring part of the game.. just that knowing the worm team order itself is. Knowing which worm just went and which one is next based on worms alive is much more interesting. Those are aspects of the game that are lost on the majority of players *because* of how boring memorizing or writing down a team's worm order is.
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A real example would be how tita plays CWT(which is actually allowed by the way).
(https://i.imgur.com/iSXycde.png)
This image is an example of a team that tita likes to use in games. I like tita, he is one of my favorite players, but I don't think what tita does is cool. Trying to confuse the opponent with gibberish worm names in this way should not be allowed. He is the only player I know, among top players, who changes his team constantly. Others, like chuvash, Rafka, Dario, Mablak etc., always use the same team.
The big deal is many people tend to think only in the moment, they don't contemplate what these decisions could lead to in the future.
After so many years of the game's existence, these "controversial" modules are being requested. Maybe you shouldn’t worry so much with the future.
Although that is a subjective opinion, to be fair, i'd rather people didn't do that if possible, though I feel it's a much better alternative to having the game automatically track your opponents teams and weapons.
Everyone plays the way they are most comfortable (memorizing, annotating or creating resources to do it for you, eg modules). Modules like these won't make anyone better than anyone else, I don't think it's cheating and will improve the gaming experience for some players.
I'm all for supporting developers, though as i've said before in the other relative threads, you cannot expect people to accept everything, there will be individual projects that people don't like, most people here have their own idea of what is good and bad for the game.
I also don't like the idea of taking notes when a module can do it for me, as I would like to be 100% immersed in the game.
I understand that some are bothered by the fact that the module would make the process automatic, eliminating the need for people, manually, having to write it down on paper etc.
If the game had a built-in option for you to tag the weapons used by the enemy, and a better option to track the enemy team's sequence, without having to take your attention outside the game, no one would complain, right? Unfortunately, I think it would take a lot of effort to create something like this, integrated into the game.
What we have now, thanks to excellent programmers willing to use their time to help the community, is the possibility of these modules, and we should take this opportunity and thank them that they are here to help!
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"Maybe you shouldn't worry about the future"
If you want to live a YOLO attitude Albus, that's your choice.
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"Maybe you shouldn't worry about the future"
If you want to live a YOLO attitude Albus, that's your choice.
I don't like the way the game is today (lack of built-in tools that make me have to get out of the immersion of the game), and there's a person with disposition and a lot of knowledge to make the game more enjoyable for me and many other people. Unfortunately, this change displeases some. Perhaps in the future, there will be another idea and implementation of something that everyone will like in this regard. But in the meantime, I want to support what we can have for today.
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Every other week you are complaining about stuff with this game, why don't you find a game which already exists that is great and you don't have to change it?
To make things even worse you now remind me of relationships where people try to change and manipulate the other person to be more like their vision of what is good, instead of finding someone and loving them for who they are already. You're just doing it to a video game instead.
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Every other week you are complaining about stuff with this game, why don't you find a game which already exists that is great and you don't have to change it?
Should I give up the game!? I like the game, but I would like to propose things. I do not see that as a problem. Besides, what is the one thing in life that doesn't change? Everything is constantly evolving.
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Now people cannot give feedbacks to the game they love anymore wow. Komito is constantly giving feedback to TUS. Feedbacks to TUS are ok, but feedbacks for the game people cannot give, they must accept WA 1.0 or leave the game. These are the only options.
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Anyone who played League of Legends will understand better what I'm talking about. But I loved Shaco (champion name) AP (magic damage) TOP (lane of the map) for a long time. Then RIOT GAMES changed that champion and it severely impaired the use of the champion in that way. It completely changed my style of play. Well, I didn't criticize, I just adapted to the new reality and started making Shaco AD (psychic damage) Jungle (another lane of the map), and I had a lot of fun for years. People who like the way things are (paper and pen) might like the new module if it happens. Who knows. It doesn't hurt to try.
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Albus, if you love League of Legends so much, go play that? It has nothing to do with Worms Armageddon.
I am in no way trying to persuade you to quit WA, that must be made absolutely clear. Though if I had as many problems with a video game as you do, i'd just walk away(which I have done multiple times in the past with other games) and find something that is already suitable and does not require such needless "improvements".
In regards to WA I was entirely happy with WA when it originally came out, the only reason I accepted the general updates Deadcode has made is because those are official releases, so in effect signed off and agreed upon by Team17.
I'd be quite happy to play WA without any WormKit modules whatsoever, in fact, i'd prefer that.
It's cute how you are exaggerating though FoxHound. :-*
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Albus, if you love League of Legends so much, go play that? It has nothing to do with Worms Armageddon.
You really get angry when people talk about other games :D
It was just an example, aimed at people who know the game. If you don't, ignore the example.
Sorry if it was off topic tho. Didn't saw a problem in mention that. The important thing was not the example itself, but the idea of adapting to change.
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You really get angry when people talk about other games :D
I'm afraid you are making incorrect assumptions again, those other games have nothing to do with Worms Armageddon, that doesn't mean i'm angry, I just think it's a waste of time talking about them and that you should be able to use this game alone to make points about this game.
If I was angry, i'd tell you that I was angry, as I have done in the past.
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I am in no way trying to persuade you to quit WA, that must be made absolutely clear.
Not directly. But have you ever stopped to think that indirectly creating so much confusion for something that would increase players' QoL in the game (although you don't see it that way) might make them disheartened with being here? We are a small community. We should try to make others feel good too and appreciate the work of those who dedicate their free time/knowledge to create nice content for players.
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those other games have nothing to do with Worms Armageddon, that doesn't mean i'm angry, I just think it's a waste of time talking about them and that you should be able to use this game alone to make points about this game.
I edited the post before you write that post: The important thing was not the example itself, but the idea of adapting to change.
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Not directly. But have you ever stopped to think that indirectly creating so much confusion for something that would increase players' QoL (although you don't see it that way) might make them disheartened with being here?
I don't see anything confusing about it.
The important thing was not the example itself, but the idea of adapting to change.
I'm well aware of how to adapt to change Albus, and under most circumstances support change. Though it's natural, and common, for people to object to some things.
Even natural evolution, some things have remained the same for millions of years.
This is common sense as far as i'm concerned.
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I don't see anything confusing about it.
I mean: so much wear (dozens of posts), for something that should be simple and not the subject of so much discussion. If you don't like it, don't use it and you can refuse to play with someone that uses it (the module, how is it being idealized, would send a message telling that the player is using it). On the other hand, we could try to think about ways to detect if someone is using some private module (something that can already happen and we don't know).
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I mean: so much wear (dozens of posts), for something that should be simple and not the subject of so much discussion.
What are you saying? We are not allowed to discuss it? You would rather just have people sit in silence, and accept all new ideas?
You're being very subjective right now Albus.
The notion of not accepting change keeps being raised even though my personal favoured outcome(which i've stated multiple times) is a change that means people who want it can have it, and people who don't want it can still play without it. Which seems to be constantly ignored.
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What are you saying? We are not allowed to discuss it? You would rather just have people sit in silence, and accept all new ideas?
I edited the post.
Of course, we can discuss it. But it would be healthier to discuss things like: will I be able to know if my opponent is using it? Will it be allowed in leagues? This kind of thing. I expected this kind of discussion and not obstacles for people to have access to something that will make the game more enjoyable for them.
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If you don't like it, don't use it and you can refuse to play with someone that uses it
I think it should be the other way around, similar to how choices already happen in TUS for example.
The standard way of playing, is without these modules, though players can agree to play with the modules, upon disagreement games must be played without modules.
Of course, we can discuss it. But it would be healthier to discuss things like: will I be able to know if my opponent is using it? Will it be allowed in leagues? This kind of thing.
We have been discussing those things.
I expected this kind of discussion and not obstacles for people to have access to something that will make the game more enjoyable for them.
It seems like you want everything you want to happen automatically, without any kind of resistance whatsoever, as if what you want is inherently beneficial to absolutely everyone.
Not a very strong argument Albus.