The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Worms: Armageddon => General discussion => Topic started by: Error on February 24, 2010, 02:56 PM
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hi!!! i thinkin about this... now i post it cuz wanna hear ur well-founded opinion(i.e. flame or flood :D )
there is 2 shcemes: intermediate and elite - they both popular and fully luckless
i play it both and both my favourite. but i noticed this:
elite has such hard sides as: 20 sec on turn, not big amounts of weapons, 2 short ropes.
now lets think a bit.
1) when i know that my oponent has 20 sec, i just can hide anywhere but ffar from he. but in inter oponent have 45 so he can kill me anywhere, and i need to hide my best even i in other side of map. so harder to play with 45 sec not with 20. also there are 5 long ropes, lg, jp...
2) in inter i have 8 worms and it harder to keep in minde 8 (actualy 6-8) than 4 or less in elite. so harder play with 8 worms not with 4.
3) i have random placement, so i need to think how to depile my worms, only after how to attack. there is nothing like that in elite.
4) there is more weapons in inter... harder to play with more weapons/utils cuz many more way to kill, hide. and this need more thinking about it...
tell me pls what in elite harder than in intermediate?
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keep playing and ull discover urself xD
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Play full wormage, works for every criteria you mentioned. jk, lol.
I like both schemes too but your every single reason can be used in an opposite direction so it has no point to argue over it.
I.e.:
1. I say 20secs tests your ability to think fast and under pressure,
2. 8 worms are just absurd because you don't have control over every of them,
3. not random placement=makes you being strategic from the very start,
4. less weapons=being more creative with what you have.
etc,etc ;) so no point in comparing them, they are just totally different, some enjoy one more than the other and that should be it, IMO.
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In short?
Your post suggests that defending is harder in intermediate and attacking is harder in elite.
Hope that helps you out!
(PS: I don't play either scheme, so I wouldn't know)
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van is right, error.
But just note he is an elite-freak ;)
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i am not searching the truth... just wanna ppl talk :D
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Intermidiate<Elite
I actually think that elite is easier. But normal is more adaptable to the players and the skill levle of normal depends on the player. So it is a far superior scheme !
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Intermidiate<Elite
I don't think you were paying a lot of attention during your math classes, then. :P
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Neither is better... its like asking if an apple is better than an orange.
I play both, have more experience in elite though.
Id say inter requires far more consistant creativity, also rememberring the turn order of 8 worms and all of your opponants weapons is a very demanding task!
Then elite requires other skills, you can't compare them as van said because they're as individual as any other 2 default schemes are!
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Neither is better... its like asking if an apple is better than an orange.
It's more like saying what's better Tennis or Ping Pong. The schemes are very similar but at the same time very different. I see one viable option and it is for them both to count as the same rating, as in being the same class as far as the league logistics are concerned. So, you can choose to play intermediate or Elite in your pick and when you report you use the same scheme for both.
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i dont rly like SD intermediate cus it's lucky shit xP
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Actually intermediaire is not as famous as elite in tus.
But I do personally think that intermediaire is harder than elite.
Just take the exemple of mablak, he plays only intermediaire because for him it's the only scheme where there's a real challange.
I totally agree with everything you said error.
The problem is that most of player are noob in this scheme and can't handle that many worms ...
But if you play against someone who is used to play this scheme you'll always loose. This means there's a lot of skills in this scheme :).
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There's not more skill involved. That's a myth, a dilusion if you must. What's happening here is what has happened with every scheme ever. At first there's only a couple of specialists in said scheme, and thus the difference in skill with the rest of the world is wider. When the scheme and if the scheme becomes more popular the gap will close and it will be just like every other scheme.
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1. I say 20secs tests your ability to think fast and under pressure,
True.
2. 8 worms are just absurd because you don't have control over every of them,
Fail, the art of intermediate is in controlling the whole team.
3. not random placement=makes you being strategic from the very start,
Fail, placement in elite is very pattern-based, not strategic. In intermediate, the beginning turns contain a lot of strategic movement. Yep, random placement involves some luck, but that's why intermediate is never played bo1.
4. less weapons=being more creative with what you have.
Fail :) 20 sec doesn't really allow you to be VERY creative.
no point in comparing them, they are just totally different
True!
Oh wait, I should have read the whole post, whatever xD
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Intermediate is just far more creative since you are allowed to do so much various moves on the map (knocks, 3s mines, bigger inventory, random placement, 45s turn, worm select), thats why some people like it better. Skill matters ofc like in everything, but comparing possibilities in inter/elite, inter is harder i say. Its like job where u need to do some stuff, and another job where u have to do same stuff + a bit more from some other branch. Time and better rope doesnt change much here. Thats just my oppinion.
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ropa wins this discussion ^^
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I see one viable option and it is for them both to count as the same rating, as in being the same class as far as the league logistics are concerned. So, you can choose to play intermediate or Elite in your pick and when you report you use the same scheme for both.
Thats the worst idea ive read in a long time. Inter and elite counting as the same scheme, surely you can see that that isnt viable and makes no sense.
As you said yourself the two schemes, whilst requiring the same basic default skills, revolve around entirely different gameplay and tactics. Twice the worms, twice the time, more utilities, more cows, come now...
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ropa wins this discussion ^^
Im sorry?
So you agree with what he said?
So next time we tus ill pick an inter and report it as an elite?
You agree that thats a good idea? Of course you dont... -.-
Whats with all this oldschool ass licking, even when people post complete rubbish.
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So you've called my porposition the "worst idea you've ever heard" and on top of it said I posted "rubbish" yet you didn't reason any of your arguments, well, way to go I suppose...
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Ropa reminds me of Ari from Entourage. :D
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Ropa reminds me of Ari from Entourage. :D
Hey NAiL
(http://i33.tinypic.com/261ohus.gif)
oh and
(http://images.tmuscle.com/forum_images/4/a/4a4da-Ari_Gold_Get_the_f@#!_Out.gif)
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i dont rly like SD intermediate cus it's lucky shit xP
yayaya use TNL scheme!
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ropa wins this discussion ^^
Im sorry?
So you agree with what he said?
no, I meant his second post in this thread:
There's not more skill involved. That's a myth, a dilusion if you must. What's happening here is what has happened with every scheme ever. At first there's only a couple of specialists in said scheme, and thus the difference in skill with the rest of the world is wider. When the scheme and if the scheme becomes more popular the gap will close and it will be just like every other scheme.
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xDDDD ololololo
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husk^!!
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Yes, best example is DOPE and MPH. They were a super strong Elite team a few years ago, but that was only because all the other clans were shit at Elite. Everyone who's reasonably good at Elite, watch some old replays, they're really nothing special (nowadays).
So give Intermediate a bit more time and more players and you'll see how the gap closes just as ropa suggested. Because I don't think there's "more" skill involved either, it's just a different scheme which requires different thinking which people aren't used to (yet).
Confusing post, sorry. xD
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It's not like there needs to be any competition between schemes, but I do wish some regular league people would play intermediate more. Here's my two cents (and my only intention would be to get people more interested in inter):
As someone who's played both elite and intermediate for years, I think the skill cap for intermediate is noticeably higher. I believe the reason for this is largely due to the huge variety of situations you come across in inter, as lacoste mentioned, which come into play due to random placement, the extra worm count, the ability to rope knock, and the addition of jetpack, low gravity, and select worm. With so many worms in play, kill-spotting becomes something of an art, and it becomes crucial to use all of your opponent's turn time as well as some of your own to determine an optimal kill. Moreover, the number of kills is only half of the equation in executing an ideal turn, since you have to determine the most efficient use of your utilities.
And conservation of utilities in elite is really only a microcosm of conservation in inter. In elite you generally just have to consider your two ropes and SS, and it's fairly easy to determine how many of those utilities you need to hold onto in order to win or potentially win, and considering you'll usually need at least one such utility for SD, there aren't many combinations of rope / SS usage open to you (not that it isn't hard to determine when to use those one or two utilities). In inter, conservation of utilities also becomes a major skill, requiring you to continually attempt to make your opponent waste resources / avoid worm combinations that sap you of your own resources.
Probably due to the sheer number of combinations of jetpacks / ropes / worm selects you can have, there are many opportunities for efficient and inefficient uses of utilities within a single game; it becomes necessary to consistently make wise decisions in resource allocation. There's also quite a bit of fun in the heuristics of utility conservation, based on their own previous game experiences people develop wildly different styles, and there are simply too many options to ever say for certain whether a certain rope usage was ideal; just rarely any situations where you're clearly forced to use any given utility.
Worm selects constitute another big skill that you don't deal with in elite, and they take a lot of time to learn. It's certainly another heuristic factor that takes hundreds of games to get a handle on, simply because you can only see certain aspects of what will happen more than a few turns ahead, yet you need to prepare for the worst case scenarios and use select worm to find efficient worm orders for the next several turns accordingly, hopefully staying one step ahead of those scenarios. You'll constantly find yourself having to plan important aspects of the next two, three, and often more turns since you have some freedom in worm order, while in elite you will often be bogged down in BnG, or in situations where the same few worms will be forced to perform roughly the same actions each turn and there's no need or desire for any particularly creative planning.
Aside from big skills, intermediate tends to have way more opportunities to test your knowledge of the game and practice little skills, e.g. rope knocking in general, hitting 2 worms with one bow, knowing mine / bat distances, mine drops, grenade / HHG drops, cow skills, knowing when SD will come, knowing when a worm will slide forward or bounce back from the ground or ceiling, etc. And while elite does require 'motor skills' like BnG and SSing, inter requires pretty brutal precision with most all weapons, in both LG and non-LG modes.
In short, I find intermediate to be more strategic and complex, mainly because it requires several large skill sets that are not so prominent in elite. Though this has little to do with one scheme being better than the other, since fun is a big factor. I've just been having more fun with inter because it always seems I can get better, and there are always interesting situations that require creative thinking. I disagree with ropa and dark though, intermediate has progressed a lot in the past 4+ years almost entirely outside any regular leagues, and there are quite a few specialists, so this 'gap' isn't going to close much more than it already has.
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ELITE>inter
inetrmediate sucks, just for noobs
all
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Great post Mablu, there's a lot of truth in your words.
I still think that the gap can be closed like it's been done in Elite. Lots of guys (like myself and most of CF) haven't really started playing Intermediate yet, so there *may* still be great talents who haven't yet discovered the scheme for themselves. :)
Also, like in every other scheme, it's a matter of practice and experience to be good at a scheme.
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Great post Mablak. I completely agree with you.
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Thanks domi / dark. Though dark, lots of intermediate players in nnnl rarely play elite, so you could say the elite gap hasn't closed as well ;0
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I don't disagree with Mablak thought I'd like to add prespective by typing what I think makes Intermediate easier than Elite (which doesn't mean Intermediate is an easier scheme, on the whole scheme of things)
The influence of creativty in intermediate is much more relevant than in Elite, having more resources gives more chances for great turns that many people just can't see/perform - in theory there are more options for a particular kill and thus the chances of coming up with one are bigger. In elite sometimes you hit a barrier, you're losing, and there's virtually no way for you to make a reasoanble come back, regardless of your skill level, this is a double edged sword in practice, since even though more tools makes your life easier (providing you can constantly come up with great turns) it also makes defending yourself more of a chore.
The amount of movement weapons trivializes the clock in many turns regardless of the fact that many perfect turns require the whole turn time and even more which in turn allows for mistakes in planning your movement: failing a jump 4 or 5 times might not have consequences, this is more unlikely in Elite.
Longer turns also allow for more thinking time though I still acknowledge there's more to think about.
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Mablak wins the discussion Random00 xD
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God damn, so many text for a simple assumption: Intermediate rocks! I hope to play very soon with some of you guys ;-)
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failing a jump 4 or 5 times might not have consequences, this is more unlikely in Elite.
lol, if U fail a jump 4 or 5 times U dont have any chances to win..... especially if U are playing vs good player.
Let me quess U didnt play intermediate at all :)
It should be discussion between guys who know something about both of this schemmes. Unfortunately I am not one of them :-[
Maciuś for president!
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Well I think what ropa meant was 'hard jumps', on weird pixels/angles etc, 4-5 jumps ruin your entire turn in elite and in inter you can try more ;).
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That's like 8-ball and Russian billiard.
If you miss a shot in 8-ball you lose a game or even several rounds.
If you miss a shot in a Russian billiard you are OK.
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Way to describe it, Mablak (hats off).
I'd like to add the fact that in Intermediate you not only have the chance to put to work a lot of knowledge and many small tricks/skills, but these lesser skills are extremely important in the game. Most people tend to think "why the hell do I need to learn something I will rarely ever use?" and fail to see the fact that there are so many "things you will rarely ever use" that the addition of many of them is a "skill" (to put a name on it) that you will be using in every round. In fact this "skill" is a very important one, because it gives you the chance to plan moves that your opponent just can't see.
The number and diversity of these lesser skills is so unbelievable wide that I dare to say that through years of constantly researching I've managed to learn a lot of them. So many that I actually should have them written down somewhere because it's impossible for me to remember everything and it isn't strange to find myself in a situation knowing what trick I need, but not being able to remember exactly how to do it.
More over I am sure there are still things that nobody knows. 3 years ago some of us used to think there were no more tricks to discover and master... fools :p .
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In bng you can win cheaply soon as you have mastered 3secs. But if you learn all the possible shots. Know your winds, you floor banks, you normal bounces you have an advantage as you sometimes need these shots.
Same for inter. Theres many tricks and skills to learn with a wider range of weapons, with lg and none lg options. I used to play inter competitively but I don't really have the time to focus on it anymore. Its a nice scheme and i'll always enjoy playing it as a natural born defaulter.
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failing a jump 4 or 5 times might not have consequences, this is more unlikely in Elite.
lol, if U fail a jump 4 or 5 times U dont have any chances to win..... especially if U are playing vs good player.
Let me quess U didnt play intermediate at all :)
It should be discussion between guys who know something about both of this schemmes. Unfortunately I am not one of them :-[
Maciuś for president!
Oh, you're free to guess all you want, it's a chance you're free to take.
Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.
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failing a jump 4 or 5 times might not have consequences, this is more unlikely in Elite.
lol, if U fail a jump 4 or 5 times U dont have any chances to win..... especially if U are playing vs good player.
Let me quess U didnt play intermediate at all :)
It should be discussion between guys who know something about both of this schemmes. Unfortunately I am not one of them :-[
Maciuś for president!
Oh, you're free to guess all you want, it's a chance you're free to take.
Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.
Nice to have thee back
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failing a jump 4 or 5 times might not have consequences, this is more unlikely in Elite.
lol, if U fail a jump 4 or 5 times U dont have any chances to win..... especially if U are playing vs good player.
Let me quess U didnt play intermediate at all :)
It should be discussion between guys who know something about both of this schemmes. Unfortunately I am not one of them :-[
Maciuś for president!
Oh, you're free to guess all you want, it's a chance you're free to take.
Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.
Nice to have thee back
Doubletime - I think I remember you man, from before I left! Good times! You were very good at defaults schemes right? Yeah I think I remember? How have you been? I hope you're good man!
What clan are you in right now? Still playing worms actively?
I hope your father is out of jail already for raping your mother (his sister).
Cheers inbred
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I think it's totally personal matter. Which skill-sets you appreciate more? Where one might see more utilitily as a good thing, one might see it as negative etc.
And what most of here really need to ask themselves is the fact do they really know what they are trying to compare? You might be really in-depth about one scheme, but it's doubtful you're really in-depth about the other scheme too. You think you might be, but you need to know the scheme from the core in order to draw "realistic conclusions".
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Can someone aplaud me so i haev -200 karma points thank you ?
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I think it's totally personal matter.
You might be really in-depth about one scheme, but it's doubtful you're really in-depth about the other scheme too. You think you might be, but you need to know the scheme from the core in order to draw "realistic conclusions".
That's what I was talking about, NNN's come here and praise the inter, eliters do the same for their scheme, not much of a constructive talk here and definitely not much of a conclusion. ;)
IMO the only player here who fits your criterias, free, is mablak, and as he's right on some point, he didn't bash elite like some of you assumed!
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I think it's totally personal matter.
You might be really in-depth about one scheme, but it's doubtful you're really in-depth about the other scheme too. You think you might be, but you need to know the scheme from the core in order to draw "realistic conclusions".
That's what I was talking about, NNN's come here and praise the inter, eliters do the same for their scheme, not much of a constructive talk here and definitely not much of a conclusion. ;)
IMO the only player here who fits your criterias, free, is mablak, and as he's right on some point, he didn't bash elite like some of you assumed!
Who here assumed Mablak was bashing Elite?
And it's fair enough to think someone is biased, I haven't played intermediate in years, but I'd rather you give me a counter if you think something I've said is unreasonable than tell me I don't know a thing about a scheme, because quite frankly I think you'd struggle to be more wrong.
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Since the topic title is elite vs intermediate...
But I'm not sure you paid enough attention to what I wrote, re-do that, please,
I agree with your previous post according elite (I'm an eliter myself, ffs), although this is my opinion on the topic:
You might be really in-depth about one scheme, but it's doubtful you're really in-depth about the other scheme too. You think you might be, but you need to know the scheme from the core in order to draw "realistic conclusions".
And you obviously just felt offended by not putting you into same category as mablak.
EOT for me.
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Since the topic title is elite vs intermediate...
But I'm not sure you paid enough attention to what I wrote, re-do that, please,
I agree with your previous post according elite (I'm an eliter myself, ffs), although this is my opinion on the topic:
You might be really in-depth about one scheme, but it's doubtful you're really in-depth about the other scheme too. You think you might be, but you need to know the scheme from the core in order to draw "realistic conclusions".
And you obviously just felt offended by not putting you into same category as mablak.
EOT for me.
Why would I be offended by that? That's rich man, I couldn't care less on your opinion because I don't value it enough to begin with, so even if you were de belittleing my statements (which I don't think you were) it wouldn't really affect me in the slightest.
I only asked you to state specificaly who you think was talking without knowing and explain why that is, as opposed to shooting bullets in random directions. Simply put I'm annoyed at the amount of posts that add absoluletly nothing to the discussion but pseudo moderation.
You think some people are wrong, you think some others are biased, fair enough, but if you cannot expose said points in a reasonable manner then why bother posting to begin with?
It's very nice, coming here and saying "DUDES POINTLESS DISCUSSING EVERYONE HAS THEIR OPINION", "EVERYTHING IS GOOD IN A WAY AND EVERYTHING IS BAD IN A WAY", yes, you'll get posts like this in every single topic because people wanna feel part of the heat, yet they have nothing to add and I'm probably, in a way, at fault for ranting about you guys, but we've got enough diplomat wannabes I rather we had people sharing useful information.
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I doubt anyone of us could be called as someone who knows these schemes truly by the core tbh, it's a constant evolution. There are few that dominate, but I'm sure they would agree that the more they play the more they learn. The better opponents we face, the more we grow.
If we would actually get paid to play (drools), then we would evolve into true depths of this great game.
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I doubt anyone of us could be called as someone who knows these schemes truly by the core tbh, it's a constant evolution. There are few that dominate, but I'm sure they would agree that the more they play the more they learn. The better opponents we face, the more we grow.
If we would actually get paid to play (drools), then we would evolve into true depths of this great game.
Les Freeman but we ain't discussing things that are too complex for us to grasp (us as in you, me). We might not be able to calculate the influence of the sheep to the exact value in both schemes to obtain the intrinsic value of its absolute worth but we can still debate the theory behind a game we've played for so long. Sometimes we just take things for granted and just play with worms, but it's also interesting once in a while to try and put words to what we do as routine: per example, on your first or second turn in an elite if you have a way to use one rope and one dyno to plop a 100hp enemy worm and retreat somewhere relatively safe you will always do it, well, perhaps not you, but most people.
You latter learn that you have to take into account how beneficial turn advantage will be so early in game for your opponent, observing his current position and turn order, you might give him an easy chance to skunk 2 of your worms, a chance non obtainable without your dyno kill, or at least not as clear - future poofing, a skill intermediate helps to learn specially thanks to the select worms.
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Yea there's nothing wrong with interesting (as long as it's interesting, instead, inter/elite rox cos I playz it) chit-chat about theory, I'm down. :P
I learned alot of skill (weapon skills, art of finding a kill, pixel perfect precision) from playing loads of Intermediate and I feel it requires much more ability to focus than elite.
I developed a really "deep and tactical" eye from playing and watching (I've watched like 400 WEL replays) shitloads of Elites and I feel that Intermediate as a scheme doesn't enable to go this deep and offer the amount of tactical variety. You really learn how to use the map (controlling chokepoints etc.), limit the moves opponent can do (advanced girder tactics, pushing opponent into certain chokepoint, sacrificing worms in order to get rope advantage etc.) and overall how to be creative about map & worm control since you don't have much utility to use.
There's A LOT of tactical elements in Intermediate also, I just feel that in overall it doesn't offer as much tactical variety as Elite does. Where one might think he's cracked the puzzle by developing a set of "good & safe" tactics (to untrained eye elite might look like this), he simply haven't played enough against very good eliters that actually do everything to make you play their game. There's only a few eliter's whom I consider to have very good tactical eye also instead just good situational based eye. For me, it's not about waiting to opponent make mistakes, it's about forcing him to make them.
Without playing Intermediate I wouldn't be this good in Elite and vice versa. Both are really good schemes once you get to like them. Nowadays I prefer Elite as the amount of focus needed in Intermediate is overwhelming to me (even though I like to play chess).
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Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.
Not true, the same situation occurs during inter.
If you'd played enough of it then you'd realise that turns requiring every last one of the 45 seconds you have occur far more frequently than you would assume by saying such a thing!
I agree with you that neither scheme is harder, although inter inarguably requires more knowledge and a greater range of skills, seeing as there are more weapons, rope knocks, and utilities.
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Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.
Not true, the same situation occurs during inter.
If you'd played enough of it then you'd realise that turns requiring every last one of the 45 seconds you have occur far more frequently than you would assume by saying such a thing!
ow yea that's what I mean... try to kill 2x1 hp worms after sd(in cave!) :)
That's what I was talking about, NNN's come here and praise the inter, eliters do the same for their scheme, not much of a constructive talk here and definitely not much of a conclusion.
Not really,there is 54 posts..... only 3 of them are posted by NNN members (one of them "I agree with Mablak") :)
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Failing a jump doesn't mean you lose the turn, sorry if I didn't make that statement idiot proof.
Not true, the same situation occurs during inter.
If you'd played enough of it then you'd realise that turns requiring every last one of the 45 seconds you have occur far more frequently than you would assume by saying such a thing!
I agree with you that neither scheme is harder, although inter inarguably requires more knowledge and a greater range of skills, seeing as there are more weapons, rope knocks, and utilities.
I suggest you read before getting all defensive next time.
The amount of movement weapons trivializes the clock in many turns regardless of the fact that many perfect turns require the whole turn time and even more which in turn allows for mistakes in planning your movement
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I think that ropa isn't completely wrong. I agree that you will need walking/jumping perfection in elite more often than in Intermediate in order to save time. Still at intermediate it isn't strange to waste a chute/bungee or even a rope because you failed a jump and need to use an utility in order to reach the target in time.
Besides that when playing intermediate I think you are more often exposed to harder jumps, or at least you can go for harder jumps knowing that if you fail the first attempt you will most likely have a second chance or third chance.
The situation is quite different when using LG. In turns that begin with it your target is usually quite far away and you will most likely be reaching it with barely enough time to do what you need to do precisely, even if you didn't miss a single jump.
Regarding Free's point of view about Intermediate deep tactics, I think you would have to study the scheme as much as you've studied Elite in order to make a valid/objective affirmation about it. I have probably spent as much (if not more) time -years- and effort -horus a day- on studying the strategy in it -screenshot the starting situation and play the whole round in my mind- and I can easily say that the depth of Intermediate strategy is as overwhelming to me as Elite tactics are to you.
Maybe it'd take someone like Mablak (recognized as one of the best in both schemes) to do such analysis, and it'd still be an opinion after all ;) .
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I don't disagree at all Dario, hence why in the first post I said that we need players that really know both schemes from the core. Mablak is respected at elite but IMO he's more of a "good & safe" player (you know I still love you baby) instead being the one who tries to push and knows he can do it. Like I said there's only a few who I think sees elite from a very deep perspective.
It's just my opinion that Intermediate doesn't offer as much variety tactic-wise (in Inter you basically attack every turn, in elite you need to build attacks and use the map more than in Intermediate IMO), but yea I'm not experienced enough to make real judgements, like I said on my first post... but I do like the theory chit-chat. :P
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Inter is harder in that,
More worms, more choices, more decisons, + no denying the fact that remembering all 8 worms and the weapon situation of your opponant is inarguably harder to do so than in elite.
Free is right though, not much room for any commando or tactics in inter the same way as in elite, most games you'll just try to kill or damage a worm every turn (or wteva u know what i mean, both schemes are very different tactically).
And of course we must remember that the luck factor of random placement, even in bo7 games, can still play a huge part in deciding whether or not you win or lose a game. But lets not forget people like Dario win with what was it like 80 games won in a row on NNN league? This disproves the argument of people who say that inter is 90% determined by your starting positions.
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45 seconds is too long?
30 perfect? what ya think
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if intermediate would have 30s and 8worms teleport manual it could became a clasic league scheme, what ya think?
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30s turn and telestart is not 'intermediate'.
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but it's good modification for classic league scheme what u think?
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In my opinion, everybody who blame the "starting luck factor" didnt realized the fun of this scheme. I promise you, that nobody can seriously blame this factor for losing a bo5 game. This person just dont realise and notice all the given chances to turn a round for his advantages.
Deleting random placements would end in a gun and axe war. Nobody can be seriously interested in that. I mean, you would take the creativity factor out of the game. The same happens at reducing the time to 30 sec. The challenge of this game is that each worm on the map can be reached and killed. So its your job to use as less weapons as necessary for the biggest possible succees.
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Deleting random placements would end in a gun and axe war. Nobody can be seriously interested in that. I mean, you would take the creativity factor out of the game. The same happens at reducing the time to 30 sec. The challenge of this game is that each worm on the map can be reached and killed. So its your job to use as less weapons as necessary for the biggest possible succees.
Ye, ye, nobody is seriously interested in elite, according to your logic. Lol.
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In my opinion, everybody who blame the "starting luck factor" didnt realized the fun of this scheme. I promise you, that nobody can seriously blame this factor for losing a bo5 game. This person just dont realise and notice all the given chances to turn a round for his advantages.
Deleting random placements would end in a gun and axe war. Nobody can be seriously interested in that. I mean, you would take the creativity factor out of the game. The same happens at reducing the time to 30 sec. The challenge of this game is that each worm on the map can be reached and killed. So its your job to use as less weapons as necessary for the biggest possible succees.
I'm aware that random placements is a challenging and fun aspect but it doesn't take away the fact that it's random and thus can give a handicap to a player. Can this handicap be overcome with skill? Yes. It's still a handicap whatsoever.
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What happens when you put two Darios against each other? Then it becomes pretty much a "luck" factor, no?
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What happens when you put two Darios against each other? Then it becomes pretty much a "luck" factor, no?
All of the schemes are like this Free :)
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Always amazing how ppl seem to have no problem with changing a scheme they hardly play but they scream "NOOOOOO" when it comes to modifying a scheme they played for years :). That was aimed to the guys who play the "classic" schemes btw. I just wonder why you would want to change a scheme that every NNN guy loves to play for years and hes perfectly alright with it.
Also that Dario vs Dario comparison is some bullshit, everything can happen in a game, because no1 is perfect. Especially in a scheme like inter where creativity is needed much.
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Seems like some of you missed that I was talking about random teleport start. And when I mean Dario vs Dario, I mean both are equally creative and know the scheme equally well. And no, not all schemes are like this or even close to the same luck factor. I mean your game can be basically lost before you even get a turn, IF both are equally skilled.
I guess the luck factor goes to 50/50 in the long run, but in short-term, random placement seems like a luck factor to me. I don't MIND though, just saying.
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Lots of things can be considered as luck factors. And in every single scheme if two players with the exact same style, skill level, strategy level and mood of the day it will be luck what decides who wins and who loses. Even if the placement of both players is equally good, it is probable that one of the players will be more comfortable with the placement he got than the opponent with his placement. Just a matter of styles.
How "big" is the luck factor introduced to the scheme by random placement is a variable impossible to isolate. I think that most times, what determines the result between two players with the same skill level is which one of them is better prepared for the situation he has to face and which one is playing better at that particular moment. Trust me on this: in Intermediate the "mood of the day" is a huge luck factor... bad luck if you are not in your best day.
Now if you want to complain about a luck factor in Inter that many times forces you to radically change your plans or ruins your hide: that is wind ;) . If there only was a "next 5 winds" bar it'd be all fine, jeje.
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Trust me on this: in Intermediate the "mood of the day" is a huge luck factor... bad luck if you are not in your best day.
I couln't agree more with you on this matter, sir.
Like in most things we face, the psychological aspect has a great role. And for such a complex scheme like Inter (and Elite as well), it turns out to often decide the winner.
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Lots of things can be considered as luck factors. And in every single scheme if two players with the exact same style, skill level, strategy level and mood of the day it will be luck what decides who wins and who loses. Even if the placement of both players is equally good, it is probable that one of the players will be more comfortable with the placement he got than the opponent with his placement. Just a matter of styles.
How "big" is the luck factor introduced to the scheme by random placement is a variable impossible to isolate. I think that most times, what determines the result between two players with the same skill level is which one of them is better prepared for the situation he has to face and which one is playing better at that particular moment. Trust me on this: in Intermediate the "mood of the day" is a huge luck factor... bad luck if you are not in your best day.
Now if you want to complain about a luck factor in Inter that many times forces you to radically change your plans or ruins your hide: that is wind ;) . If there only was a "next 5 winds" bar it'd be all fine, jeje.
Would you agree that with custom placements Intermediate would be more fair?
I'm aware of things that make other schemes and this one unfair, wind, who starts, crates etc etc, but custom placement is something we can change and I believe would ultimately make intermediate a more fair scheme league based even though it would destroy a big part of its charm and fun. I'm not saying I would agree to a change though, just adding perspective.
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I wouldn't agree on something that could radically change the scheme.
More fair?, yes. But there are a few more things to consider:
-How unfair is the scheme as it is?. Hard to reach an agreement on that, specially if it is a discussion between people who play it in real depth and people who doesn't.
-Is it worthy to make it fair?. No way imho. Long time ago I was even someone who wanted to play it with manual placement, but after more games I started seeing that random placement just makes the scheme what it is. Intermediate without random placement is not intermediate.
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Would you agree that with custom placements Intermediate would be more fair?
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No it still wouldn't make things fair. In elite were there are in theory less luck factors. Who starts can be a huge factor on open maps with few hides. There you can use your'e first worm and put him on the top of the map meaning that any of the opponents worms can be attacked unless placed in a cave.
There are alot of luckfactors in inter. As well as in Poker. In theory poker is 100 percent luck yet a veteran poker player will win atleast 999 of 1000 vs a newcomer. Then it isn't luck. It is skill. Despite the fact that poker in it self is luck a veteran player can use that to his advantage.
Dario can win 80 games in a row vs very skilled opponent=No luck at all. Dario won because he is currently the best player. If the games were bo1 Dario might loose every 30th game due to losing 5 worms first turn. But in bo3 games dario simply wont lose unless he is drunk.
If we took an veteran oldschool elite player and asked him to play 80 tus elite games vs any givven opponent on wn that wanted to play. This player would propably be unable to do so. Because in elite the game is more focused in a way. Unlike inter were any skill level can play it elite has to be played by good players. Wich means that in theory elite would be more luck than inter due to cultural differences.
In elite were there are less luck factors. The luck factors that are there are bigger ! Like for exampel wind and starting order wich plays a more significant role in elite. If we give both opponents fort placements starting turn would still be an advantage. It is impossibel to have a 100 percent luck less scheme. In ttrr seing a superior opponent might demoralize you while seing a noob will make you less serius. And wind is still a luck factor.
In bng starting/taking best hide/getting first blow can mean victory. And wind can be something great if you want a nice zook.
Inter is fine and it is not obsessed with luck. The more skilled person will win any game. The TNL scheme sucks i mean come on. No hp reduction ? And now you want to add manuell placements and 30 secs ? what next ? Remove team weopen since it is a luck factor ? Remove all wind based weopens ? It would suck so badly. Even if you mannaged to shun all the ingame luckfactors away witch you can not. The scheme would loose its magic and peopel would stop playing it. Why not nag about all the luck factors in team 17 instead ? Or wxw were someones weopenry is nearly 100 percent luck ?
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o cmon...
bl..bl..bl..bl..bl..
why ppl allways call some luck,or bad luck in this game!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
intermediate is scheme where u need have all skills..roope,fast thinking,skills with weapons,etc...
placement...randomly is 1000000% good.like dario say..that is intermediate,and if u change that,that will not be same scheme.so what if u have bad positions.if u lose 2 worms,its normal situation,if u lose 3 so so,nothing so bad..4 u r in truble,but that is rare.simply if u have tactic,u can win any game,and there is no positions witch can u give win without ur skills.
only bl in this game can be ur bad day,when u cant do anything what U have planed.
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Random placements is one of the major definitions of Intermediate.
Have you seen these chess games where you must play at the middle of previously played game? The puzzle there is: 'What is your move IF you were in this situation?'
imo random placements in intermdiate is like that. The point there is, 'How would you play if the worms were placed like this' or 'What is yoru tactic if you are stuck in this situation'.
While in elite, it is a new chess game from the very start.
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yes,and in elite u have shotgun war.ppl cower worms like in basketball lol.
stuck in situation??
MI m8,i didnt see situtaion on start where i dont have solution what can I do.every player have 3 WS,and he can hide worms,and make truble to another player.its all about tactic.placement is maybe 5% of the game,and I dont see any problem in that.any way,everty1 hewre have own oppinion,and we can talk till the new year :)
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It is english as second language problem :)
By 'stuck in a situation' I meant having that specific situation.
we can talk till the new year :)
Actually our new year is close. In about 2 weeks xD
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we will press this buttons on kb,and talk,talk,talk,............talk...and at end we will not change our mind.who like normal he will play normal,who like elite he will play elite,etc.....
gl in ur favorites schemes :)
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Intermidiate>>>>>>>>Elite
Elite is more luck simply because wind and starting order is so much more powerfull.
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At all
intermediate isn't as pro as elite is.
in inter u got 45s..- where every newb can attack you thinking 25secs. in elite u gotta think before opponent's turns.
normal has got stupid SD, 1hp- it's a joke.
8 worms doesn't mean u gotta think more than in elite.
if inter would be 30s or 25s without auto teleports in the beginning it could be really interesting
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I love both schemes ;), cant fight to save one
yes, right... both schemes r diferents and need practice, but i think ( in my experience playing them ) that all ppl can learn to play elite before inter, cos inter needs more time to be learned
and remember... 1vs1 and 2vs2 its a diferent way of play, changes ur way of play absolutly
Note: when CF clan will learn good the inter scheme, ill speak to MI to close leagues forever, nothing to do, lmao!
cu in WO2010 ^-^ :P