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Other Things => Clans & Communities => ZaR => Topic started by: Kradie on February 18, 2024, 09:21 AM
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Hello. I would like to ask a question. It is about the absence of parachute in rope schemes. It was asked years ago. I thought It could be Interesting to see where people stand on this today.
Do you think that the absence of parachute could Increase the difficulty of rope schemes such as: Shopper, Roper, Big RR, TTRR, and WxW? Or could it be all psychological?
If you don't believe that rope schemes without parachutes makes these modes harder: Would you like to explain why?
That's it for now.
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If you don't believe that rope schemes without parachutes makes these modes harder: Would you like to explain why?
For Big RR, no parachute makes it harder, but also parachute+ldet makes it harder in a different way. Allow me to illustrate my point:
- No parachute makes it harder for faster ropers on smaller maps. Let's say I am playing with a better roper. If we both rope till the end without any mistakes, I'd lose since my opponent is faster than me. But if my opponent makes a mistake within, say, 10 seconds in a turn, they lose 30 seconds (since a turn in Big RR is 40 seconds). If the map is not as big, that might be all I need to win.
- No parachute+ldet make it harder for slower ropers on any map. Even if my opponent makes a mistake, they can just get up and continue roping, so if they are faster than me, they can still win easily.
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Interesting questions here, Kradie.
My own idea of entire roping has been through some changes during last couple of years. When I only started roping and some years onwards, while forging my skill, I was absolutely happy about parachute in rope schemes. After a big pause of 2012-2020, when I came back to Wormnet and saw ZaR concept, and tried some schemes of it, I generally liked the idea. And from that point in time I had two equally good ideas of roping: with and without parachute.
But some months ago, when I was forced to lower my activity and switched to offline gaming mostly (not to forget what the roping is), I began to treat parachute as something unnecessary. Those who play with me nowadays see that I ignore switching to parachute during the turn. Only while falling down risking to lose a turn. But I would be happy not to have this option if other players wouldn't have it too, so that we'd be equal on our rope runs. Not gonna lie, when playing roper, ttrr, big rr nowadays and seeing my opponent falling and then using parachute to save the run, a tiny voice in my head goes "Ah yes, chute... damn!" in disappointment.
So I'd love to play league rope schemes without parachute, although I know it'll never happen :D
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it doesnt matter. it doesnt add anything too new or extra. for battle themed roping schemes it could be even annoying that you wouldnt be able to knock at all, some schemes that require serious knockings sometimes (and a para to open): shopper, roper, wxw shopper. it would be stupid to play these schemes without a handy, basic, important feature like the parachute. if we'd take para out of these schemes, it wouldn't make them more "difficult" or anything, it would make them sillier, plainer, more boring.
for races, its nothing too extra ordinary either
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I don't think it's more or less challenging, it's just different.
You focus on different things depending on the scheme settings.
You remember those racing games where you see the players have X out of 5 rating for different skills?
Speed - 4/5
Handling - 3/5
Armor - 2/5
Well for roping it's kinda like:
Speed - 5/5
Consistency - 3/5
Endurance - 4/5
With no parachute, you focus a little more on consistency and endurance and less on speed.
With parachute you can focus a little more on speed, and it's balanced because everyone generally feels the same way.
With rubberworm on you can focus entirely on speed as consistency is kind of on "auto-aim". But it still means you have to rely 100% on skill.
Since the human skill ceiling is impossible to reach TA levels neither is "easier" or "harder", it's just different because what matter is the competition and we are humans vs humans.
If it was Vs AI, then it would be definitively easier or harder based on their capabilities.
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It all depends on what you want to see. Do you want speed roping in rope race? Parachute and LDET. Do you want consistency rope race? No parachute. ZaR roper is a more punishing, more luck based roper than 15sec TUS roper. I appreciate all of them, especially the legendary CaveZaR, but for rope race I generally like parachute and people trying faster techniques than just trying not to fall.
My option is TUS big rr should have LDET/para to make it as fast as possible, now it is basically a don’t fall competition. TUS already has a lot of schemes that basically destroy you if you fall just once I.e. roper, ttrr. I’d like to see these schemes become less punitive for greater variety.
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My option is TUS big rr should have LDET/para to make it as fast as possible, now it is basically a don’t fall competition. TUS already has a lot of schemes that basically destroy you if you fall just once I.e. roper, ttrr. I’d like to see these schemes become less punitive for greater variety.
Actually, rubberworm is what you need to make it as fast as possible.
You don't need to use f keys at all as rope is the only thing you have and need.
You bounce instead of fall and don't ever have to wait to shoot rope again.
You even have new tricks you need to learn that can actually make you get round parts faster than what was even possible before.
It's a completely new game and IMO it's for the best of the best as there are less limits. Which means it all comes down to how physically fast you are and your endurance.
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I like rubberworm for real time big rrs
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Actually when I say best of the best, I really just mean those who can rope the fastest.
That doesn't mean taps, those who can accelerate and brake faster than others.
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ha
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I think, if you rope without parachute, you ''can'' achieve the same level of speed as you would with parachute. Of course this is without parachute handling techniques, and general falls here and there. You just have to be consistent, as well as fast, precise, and time your spikes and any other tricks for maximum efficiency. But this is hard to achieve at times, and you have to be a robot or TAS.
I agree that with ldet as well with bounce, you can get more out of your turn as you would without parachute. Because In a turn, where you would normally fail, you get to recovery Instantaneously in motion, but then again it depends on the type of fail and speed.
I like all of yours thoughts on the matter. Because of this, I think I may add Ldet to ZaR RR.
The foundation of ZaR is for it to offer a harder alternative. Think of it as a video game with difficulty settings to choose from. That's basically it. The higher the setting, the more difficult it can become the more the player has to overcome that new obstacle, setting, & challenge. This analogy might be flawed though. But I think it holds up.
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The foundation of ZaR is for it to offer a harder alternative.
It's not harder though, it's just different lol.
You KNOW your opponent has the same risk of falling as you do. Generally speaking you won't take risks that outweigh the reward.
So it's still just as challenging a playing field based on the fact we are humans not robots.
In my opinion ANY scheme only gets "easier" or "harder" when the current best player bar is raised or lowered.
Which is why debating which schemes are harder than others are pointless because the difficulty/challenge is based on current activity, not the scheme settings.
And of course, anything is easy to learn anyway.
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It all depends on what you want to see. Do you want speed roping in rope race? Parachute and LDET. Do you want consistency rope race? No parachute. ZaR roper is a more punishing, more luck based roper than 15sec TUS roper. I appreciate all of them, especially the legendary CaveZaR, but for rope race I generally like parachute and people trying faster techniques than just trying not to fall.
My option is TUS big rr should have LDET/para to make it as fast as possible, now it is basically a don’t fall competition. TUS already has a lot of schemes that basically destroy you if you fall just once I.e. roper, ttrr. I’d like to see these schemes become less punitive for greater variety.
I completely agree.
Actually, rubberworm is what you need to make it as fast as possible.
You don't need to use f keys at all as rope is the only thing you have and need.
You bounce instead of fall and don't ever have to wait to shoot rope again.
You even have new tricks you need to learn that can actually make you get round parts faster than what was even possible before.
It's a completely new game and IMO it's for the best of the best as there are less limits. Which means it all comes down to how physically fast you are and your endurance.
I completely agree.
Wow, I never thought old school people would be saying this about LDET and Rubber bounciness. I'm surprised.
LDET or Rubber bounciness confirmed for future RR scheme? If Rubber bounciness, the value of it should be discussed. 20%, 40%, 50%, 70%?
I'd say something between 10 and 40 percent, but I would have to test a lot to reach a conclusion.
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And of course, anything is easy to learn anyway.
But that's not simply true. This is completely anecdotal. It is not black and white here, there are factors that comes into play here: Age, brain, motivation, , behavior, intelligence, nutrition, the past, the now, and more. I am no expert on the matter, but in general it is not easy for everyone to learn new things. A child can learn an Instrument easier than an adult for example. When adults learn new things, it can cause them frustrations among other things.
If you have learned something in the past, and later meet something contradictory of what you learned, you will have a difficult time to learn. You must unlearn what you already learned.
So to my experience here on WA, some old schoolers may have difficult time to accept the absence of parachute. Why? I theorize that their brain doesn't compute with their past memory, and how they used to play. I seen many ropers rope Inefficient and messed up their turns because of the freedom the parachute provided them. Spectacle wise it is Impressive, but it does not promote efficiency, and consistency.
Long ago, I made Bounce ZAR RR, but each time I heard the bounce, I felt I was hit by a brick. It reminded me of how inefficient I was. But now I understand that it is all about speed. It is all different take in the end.
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No, trust me. EVERYTHING is easy to learn for humans because we do things exactly how we want.
We are great at teaching and great at learning.
It's easy when you have the cheat code how to actually get good at anything.
Everyone had that potential trust me.
You can do almost anything anyone else can, maybe even better than the best than currently exist.
Even with disabilities, it's either impossible, or possible. The challenge is finding the right instructions and safe practising grounds.
Once you got that. You basically just respect failure as natural element of the universe because that literally teaches you what you are doing wrong so you can keep adjusting until you're fine tuned Into that specific area.
It's easy. It just takes focus and patience.
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i can learn how to dance :-X ??
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It all depends on what you want to see.
for rope race I generally like parachute and people trying faster techniques than just trying not to fall.
My option is TUS big rr should have LDET/para to make it as fast as possible
Hm, surprising to hear this from you. Whole beauty of TUS BigRR, for me, is to have that little dose of caution and adrenaline of not failing first half of the turn.. Gradually speeding up trying to play your best game. Not safest game - but the best game.
Just to be clear... When you report a replay for some BigRR chally- do you report one with a funnerlike or leaguelike gameplay? I bet it's the latter
TUS BigRR is perfect the way it is right now. (although, someone told me few days back that league scheme still have teleport inside!?!?)
We really do need to make a list of changes and let MI know everything so he can update all bugged schemes for future seasons.
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TUS BigRR is perfect the way it is right now.
;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D ;D ;D :D ;D
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?
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Teleport + 3 worms in Big RR (which no one uses) should probably be replaced with anti-sink.
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Teleport + 3 worms in Big RR (which no one uses) should probably be replaced with anti-sink.
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https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-154/
^ if you open this link, scroll down, and click on the "scheme weapons options" you will see that it still has inf teleport ammo. it is not needed neither for tower and ESPECIALLY nor for big rr :-\ :-\ :-\ (as we discussed this before in another thread)
pls change that bullsh*t, and change the other outdated TFL schemes from 2010-2012 as well.
I think the league scheme for big rr shouldn't change, it's good the way it is. if you want fast roping with ldet and no punishment for falling, Kirill and others are hosting a lot of TUS challenges, there, they are perfect for that :) the league big rr+tower scheme needs only 1 change: is to disable teleports. 40 sec, no retreat time, basic roping physics; is suitable for league games.
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I like to play zar rope how i like sex: fast and without protection
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I like to play zar rope how i like sex: fast and without protection
No wonder you never reach the end 🤣
The current Big RR scheme is pathetic though.
And it's not the inventory, it's how we measure who won that's absolutely pathetic.
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The current Big RR scheme is pathetic though.
And it's not the inventory, it's how we measure who won that's absolutely pathetic.
What's a better way to measure who won?
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Haha,. I really want to hear this answer.
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The current rule doesn't even make much sense! :D
The player who reaches the finish with less turns wins. In 2v2 and 3v3 the team that players reach the finish with less turns combined wins. Remaining turn time is a tie-breaker.
If you plop, then use teleport to place where you started the last turn.
It's the same with TTRR, it's illogical. Sometimes the loser is the winner in TTRR because you don't use milliseconds.
Honestly, who makes up these rules? Are they on drugs? Did you let children under 10 years of age decide? ;D
It's pretty simple.
For TTRR - Start using milliseconds. It doesn't matter if you like it or not, it literally represents the truth and you're all liars for avoiding that all these years. I've found multiple replays in the past where the player who actually won, went on to lose because of this illogical rule.
For Big RR ideally it would be who reaches the finish in the least amount of time, but people are too lazy for that, but you could EASILY make it better:
"The player who reaches the finish with less turns wins, if they finish during the same turn then whoever had the most turntime remaining wins.
In 2v2 and 3v3 the team that finishes both turns first with less combined turns wins. If both teams finish on the same turn then whichever team had the most combined turntime left wins."
Really, it's not rocket science for crying out loud. I've been saying this for YEARS but you still prefer to play with a false reality instead.
Ideally, we would be completely changing the Big RR scheme because 40s turns is rubbish, I'd rather TT Big RR, it's much more accurate and balanced.
But again, people like to torture themselves with illogical schemes.
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The current rule doesn't even make much sense! :D
Rule you're talking about was changed years ago. Probably when BigRR moved from Free league into Allround.
Scheme description just wasn't updated. Player who reaches finish in less ammount of time is a winner. And time is calculated when they finish in the same turn. It's the logical and fairest way. Don't know what you're complaining about, tbh.
Ideally, we would be completely changing the Big RR scheme because 40s turns is rubbish, I'd rather TT Big RR, it's much more accurate and balanced.
And what then? Stop playing 90% of Big RR maps people made because most of them take 300-400 seconds to finish? You out of all people suggesting TT BigRR, when you couldn't race with jetpack for longer than a minute last time we played.
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Rule you're talking about was changed years ago. Probably when BigRR moved from Free league into Allround.
Scheme description just wasn't updated. Player who reaches finish in less ammount of time is a winner. And time is calculated when they finish in the same turn. It's the logical and fairest way. Don't know what you're complaining about, tbh.
Um, nope, I literally quoted the current rule, go check for yourself:
https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-154/
It is not the most logical and fairest way. They haven't even written it properly!
The person who reaches in the shortest time is NOT always the winner!
The person who reaches in the shortest amount of turns, if the other doesn't finish on the same turn, is the winner.
You do realize that you can actually reach the finish in less actual roping time, but more turns, right?
This is exactly what I mean, people don't even know basic math/english/physics etc.
It's sometimes embarassing.
And what then? Stop playing 90% of Big RR maps people made because most of them take 300-400 seconds to finish? You out of all people suggesting TT BigRR, when you couldn't race with jetpack for longer than a minute last time we played.
Jetpacking is different than Roping for me, the way you actually press buttons hurts me, roping doesn't...
Also, nobody even plays 90% of Big RR or TTRR maps other than the very very few players who are absolutely obsessed!
So that wouldn't make a difference anyway.
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Don't have anything against TT Big RR (https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-1872/), if you didn't notice - it was me who uploaded it here ~10yrs ago.
Although, to play league with this scheme, we would need a whole new system.
Legion would need to update his BigRR Generator to have a timecode on the map when it was made, so ppl couldn't abuse their map picks. It would also need special parameters under which a hoster can generate his map (certain numbers of pixels for width,height,size of the cell etc..). So all maps are fresh and under, let's say 70-80 seconds for a good roper. All above that would be calling for a carpal tunnel.
Then again.. Why do all of this, when we already have TT Big RR in one section of TUS which is Challenges?
TT Big RR in leagues would only make sense if nizikawa's Realtime module is fully released with working replays. But until then, let's just stick with turn based league system: Players competing to use their whole turns in fastest way possible. Falling will probably be punished. Nothing wrong with that.
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but you could EASILY make it better:
"The player who reaches the finish with less turns wins, if they finish during the same turn then whoever had the most turntime remaining wins.
That is the current ruling, no?
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That is the current ruling, no?
No, I quoted the current ruling before suggesting that one.
Some good ideas Sensei but TTRR works without all that, we can make TTBRR with smaller maps.
Yeah, would have to change everything.
Anyway, I do like Big RR the way it is, it's just not optimal or the most logical way of playing that style. It's not WRONG by any means though.
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"The player who reaches the finish with less turns wins. Remaining turn time is a tie-breaker."
"The player who reaches the finish with less turns wins, if they finish during the same turn then whoever had the most turntime remaining wins."
What is different?
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The 1st one isn't specific enough, it's too subtle.
"Remaining time is a tie breaker"
It's not A tie breaker the final turn is the tie breaker, the most time left WINS the tiebreaker.
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What if BIG RR is bo3 on smaller maps? First one reaches finish wins, period.
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The 1st one isn't specific enough, it's too subtle.
"Remaining time is a tie breaker"
It's not A tie breaker the final turn is the tie breaker, the most time left WINS the tiebreaker.
So the current rule is just not worded perfectly. In practice we judge the games the way you suggested. I can update the rule using your wording.
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Apparently people don't even read the rules these days anyway! ::)
Sorry for being a bit... Too hyperactive and joking with this!
I don't actually believe anyone here is really stupid or can't do math etc. It just momentary feels like that sometimes lol.
Plus, I don't say it enough, it's amazing you all speak English so well anyway, 1000000 better than how I can speak your languages. :P
If you're going to update that rule, maybe we should give TFL some special treatment while we're at it, a number of people are crying out for rule/scheme changes there!