Leagues > Leagues
Game #236970, reported by Lupastic
vesuvio:
hard words from komodo and sometimes i feel the same for the ttl scheme
TheWalrus:
I’ll go to the top if opponent is less than 100 hp for final turns. I can see both viewpoints, but ultimately everyone will leverage the rules. I used to not throw rollers in bng, and typically will not unless opponent does, but following a set of moral rules when opponent does not puts you at a disadvantage. I don’t think lupa did anything wrong, but you are fully in the right to not play with him if you don’t like his definition of fair play.
--- Quote from: FoxHound on June 05, 2023, 02:34 PM ---For me this is a similar case to "telecow", "rotation manipulation" in Hysteria.
--- End quote ---
If one thinks telecow and rotation manipulation is "cheap", than they have little to no understanding about how the scheme is balanced. Hysteria is one of the best balanced schemes in the league pool today, way more so than roper, team17, aerial, ect. Telecow and rotation manipulation exist to even out the advantages presented by good/bad random placements at the start. I can't remember the last time someone complained about losing a hysteria because of their initial worm placements were terrible. If everyone played with the ridiculous 'no telecow', 'no rotation manipulation' rules, many games would be won/lost solely because of initial worms placements.
Team17 has always traditionally been the scheme with the greatest win/loss variance, someone ran the numbers a while back to actually put substance behind it. The top team17 players have the lowest winrate versus their competitors of any classic league scheme on TUS. Part of this is crates, but an even larger part of it is the random worm placements. Random worm placements introduce a huge luck factor that imbalances the scheme as it pertains to fairness. Again, the tactics in hysteria, whether people like them or not, balance the playing field in any given game, and reduce overall variance.
Free:
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on June 05, 2023, 03:57 PM ---
--- Quote from: FoxHound on June 05, 2023, 02:34 PM ---For me this is a similar case to "telecow", "rotation manipulation" in Hysteria.
--- End quote ---
Players hide on top in Roper when they are ahead to maintain their lead.
--- End quote ---
If top hiding was more widely used, then on easy maps with both equally good ropers the starter has a even bigger advantage than before, so there doesn't even need to have an lead to get advantage of top hiding. I think this is the main reason people respect the unwritten rule of not hiding on top, another one is that it would make the scheme really boring if everyone played like that.
Atleast have the courtesy of "accidentally" falling and getting top hide lol
Edit: and yes, at no point I complained about him doing anything wrong regarding rules, I didn't even bring this thread up because I understand everyone feels different, but runaway trying to mock me for having my own standards is also uncalled for.
FoxHound:
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on June 05, 2023, 03:57 PM ---Why is that similar? The argument against hiding on top versus "telecow" is vastly different.
--- End quote ---
Yes, each case is a different situation. The hiding on top on Roper tactic has a snowball effect that for many players makes the scheme boring or less fair. In Hysteria, the "worm rotation manipulation" tactic brings balance to the scheme and deal well with start positions. However, some people prefer to play hysteria focused more on the artillery aspect only, forgetting the conventional gameplay roots it has. Just the way BnG rules were created. The tactic of direct shots and sitting nades were considered less fun, or cheap attacks at the point that some players decided to officially create a new rule that later became standard to the scheme.
These are the things that these tactics have in common: they are not apreciated by many players, leading them to create a new sportsmanship behavior, that may or not become new rules that turn the scheme itself into a new variation. The problem is that some rules are subjective and hard to implement in an effective and easy way to people understand and follow it in a mutual agreement.
The best rules exist to fix a "problem" of the scheme, or at least to fix something that makes the scheme boring, repetitive, unfair, snowballing or less fun to play. The rule in these situations is something natural and not created out of the blue by the author of the scheme.
For example, when SIBASA and I created Spawn for Weapons, we were playing only with the main rule intrinsic to the scheme idea that is about only using a weapon if it is the one where the health crate spawned. The gameplay was not so fun playing only with this rule, so we felt the necessity of adding an extra rule, this one: "It is forbidden to attack with the same weapon that was last used by the enemy before your move.". This made the gameplay much better, and way more fun.
The Plop War rule was created similarly too.
The Team17 rule that you cannot rope knock worms is now a scheme feature, but I never understood well the reasons of this rule.
Anyway, I think the Roper rule forbidding players to hide on top should be official as a scheme variation that might be the pattern as the BnG rules are now. Or maybe they will be like Hysteria and Hysteria with no "telecow/jetcow", or Selecsteria, that half players like worm rotation manipulation and half don't like.
TheKomodo:
--- Quote from: TheWalrus on June 05, 2023, 05:04 PM ---Team17 has always traditionally been the scheme with the greatest win/loss variance, someone ran the numbers a while back to actually put substance behind it. The top team17 players have the lowest winrate versus their competitors of any classic league scheme on TUS.
--- End quote ---
Yeah that was me. I've still got the images and stuff.
--- Quote from: FoxHound on June 05, 2023, 09:12 PM ---Yes, each case is a different situation. The hiding on top on Roper tactic has a snowball effect that for many players makes the scheme boring or less fair. In Hysteria, the "worm rotation manipulation" tactic brings balance to the scheme and deal well with start positions. However, some people prefer to play hysteria focused more on the artillery aspect only, forgetting the conventional gameplay roots it has. Just the way BnG rules were created. The tactic of direct shots and sitting nades were considered less fun, or cheap attacks at the point that some players decided to officially create a new rule that later became standard to the scheme.
These are the things that these tactics have in common: they are not apreciated by many players, leading them to create a new sportsmanship behavior, that may or not become new rules that turn the scheme itself into a new variation. The problem is that some rules are subjective and hard to implement in an effective and easy way to people understand and follow it in a mutual agreement.
--- End quote ---
Roper:
When I was younger, I was one of the players who spat the dummy whenever a player would hide on top, screaming "That's not fair!", believing it was unsportsmanship behaviour, now as I'm older, I realize there was nothing wrong with it the whole time.
The problem isn't hiding on top, the problem is the amount of RNG in Roper with crate distance from the worm every turn. The amount of games I've seen incredible players lose because they got more unreachable crates than their opponent is brutal.
The other problem is that hiding on top is not a rule wrote in concrete, which I actually believe it should be.
Either way it's not unfair at all as all players involved in a match have the ability to employ that tactic.
Hysteria:
I understand that some players enjoy playing Hysteria with house rules, and that's completely fine when it's a custom match that isn't related to any league or competitive event. However the problem begins when you have uneducated and ignorant players who foolishly believe that it's "lame" and "cheap" to pile in Hysteria, even that is not the worst part though. It's when these uneducated players go around bullying others, mocking them, insulting them for playing the classic version of the scheme properly.
Especially those who host in #AnythingGoes then insult people who pile when it's their own fault for not expressing house rules in the game lobby. The uneducated ignorance of that is astounding to me.
BnG:
Your comparison with BnG, at least in my opinion isn't accurate.
In BnG, those rules being implemented increased the overall skill level of the scheme among good players. It brought new life into the scheme and made it interesting again. It did not in any way make the scheme unbalanced or unfair.
In Hysteria, while sure some people have more fun not piling, and it's a more casual enviroment for artillery fans. It decreases the overall skill level of the scheme and increases the luck factor. Any competitive player who truly values a balanced game should be against that.
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