Games were all funners, and I played them as such, delete. Someone tell me if its going to be TUS next time, eh?
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-203573/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-203574/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-203575/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-203576/
Quote from: TheWalrus on February 03, 2016, 07:25 AM
Games were all funners, and I played them as such, delete. Someone tell me if its going to be TUS next time, eh?
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-203573/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-203574/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-203575/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-203576/
lfmaooooo
we asked for tus in the game :P but don't have problems :D delete it pls mods and Warluss stop to drink lulz
[Sensei`hcp] is this tus?
[reN`a2b] ye
[BdL`Dego] bien
[AnGsT`l3x] ah es tus? xD
[reN`a2b] :0
[BdL`Dego] si
[BdL`Dego] jajaja
[AnGsT`l3x] ok asesinar entonces
Looks like u agreed on "2vs2 bng" and left open whether it's funner or tus. Wally didn't agree on making it a tus in the game. Same with 1vs1 games?
Quote from: Senator on February 03, 2016, 08:47 AM
[Sensei`hcp] is this tus?
[reN`a2b] ye
[BdL`Dego] bien
[AnGsT`l3x] ah es tus? xD
[reN`a2b] :0
[BdL`Dego] si
[BdL`Dego] jajaja
[AnGsT`l3x] ok asesinar entonces
Looks like u agreed on "2vs2 bng" and left open whether it's funner or tus. Wally didn't agree on making it a tus in the game. Same with 1vs1 games?
Same, me and ren did the miscommunication. I played the 1v1's and 2v2's like funners, don't think I threw a single 3s grenade either 1v1, was just messing around throwing ridiculous floorbanks and trying crazy shots, its pretty apparent I don't know what time it is.
I know it's not my game but when is this going to be dealt with, they affecting BnG standings.
I'd like to know too, talked to senator about this, I've worked really hard to get good at this scheme, played 100's of BnG games since I came back. I have two distinct styles I play with, when it's funner I play totally different when if it is a TUS game. I've only lost 11 games overall, 30% of my losses are basically from a set of games I had no idea were TUS. Senator made a good point that my partner agreed to TUS, and while that is valid, shouldn't it err on the side of all parties being in agreement rather than the other way around? Before the mention of TUS is even made in the first game, I explain that I've been on the phone all match, then resume chatting 10 mins later, explaining I'm off the phone, I was not monitoring the chat, therefore could have had no idea it was TUS. Anyone who has played me in TUS can vouch that this is absolutely not the way I play TUS matches, I haven't gotten as many wins as I have purely by fooling around and trying ridiculous shots such as the ones I try time and time again in these matches. I know its just points, meaningless TUS points, but when it comes to BnG I am the kind of nerd that cares about these points for whatever stupid reason, and care whether I win or lose. Looking forward to hearing from you on this MI.
There is no evidence that Walrus agreed to TuS, not to mention messi already gave permission to delete anyway:
Quote from: messi on February 03, 2016, 07:30 AM
lfmaooooo
we asked for tus in the game :P but don't have problems :D delete it pls mods and Warluss stop to drink lulz
I thought it would have been done already took me a good 10-15 minutes to figure out why walrus suddenly dropped over 100 points in BnG...
The 2 games with messi can be void since messi agreed to them. But the other 2 games (one is your win and the other your loss), it's like 3 people knew it was TUS. AnGsT and Degox must agree for that to be deleted. (ask one of them to post here?)
Thanks, but I respectfully decline, I've done way more than I should have here already MI, if one of those guys wants to post here, sure, but I have literally spent 15-20 mins talking to senator, providing proof, talking to messi, wrote multiple posts here; and who is to say you won't exhibit more of the flawed judgement you've showed here so far? I hate to be critical, but you've botched what is a really open and shut case here, I've never gone outside of the realm in 350some games now to get cheap points, and I won't be doing it in the future.
No one has yet complained here, shown up and said walrus is trying weasel out of these games.....but yet the burden of proof is on me. This sets forth a dangerous precedent that favors bogus reports instead of the other way around, and that is precisely what this report is, it is bogus. If not agreed upon by all parties, it isn't TUS, by the fine line of the letter of the law you wrote, yet you abandon your own rules in this situation. This is the first time the system has failed me, but it has imploded spectacularly in a desertion of logic.
You haven't even taken the time to open any of these replays to check the veracity of my claims, therefore I won't be assed to put forth the effort to try and get anyone to post here. I do appreciate that you have removed 2 of the 4 games, though, so kudos to that extent. I have had to expend an extraordinary amount of time on this, whereas all they had to do was report, I've been the only one that has put any kind of effort in to rectify this situation, and I've come to the solution that it simply isn't fair for me to have to bear the brunt of all of this just because the other players in the game were too lazy to make sure TUS was okay with me.
We got the proofs we needed for the 2vs2 games. 3 of 4 agreed on tus in the game so the only question is can your partner make the decision for u if u don't say anything. It would be unfair towards AnGsT and Degox if they couldn't complain about the games afterwards but u could (it's like u played without a risk of losing while they did have a risk). Therefore it's up to them if the games will be voided.
As for the 1vs1 games, we didn't get proofs so we treat them as funners by default. The burden of proof is not on you.
And btw, the way u played in the games doesn't prove anything. Only hard facts matter :P
Quote from: Senator on February 11, 2016, 10:39 AM
We got the proofs we needed for the 2vs2 games. 3 of 4 agreed on tus in the game so the only question is can your partner make the decision for u if u don't say anything. It would be unfair towards AnGsT and Degox if they couldn't complain about the games afterwards but u could (it's like u played without a risk of losing while they did have a risk). Therefore it's up to them if the games will be voided.
Let me put your logic into other examples:
So technically I could grab 2 friends, play a funner with some newcomer who doesn't know any better, report it as TuS as long as me and the 2 other people agreed on TuS?
My parents don't know but I gave permission to the other 2 guys to take stuff from their house and sell it on ebay, this makes it ok?
So if 3 guys have sex with a drunk, passed out woman, even though she was unaware it would make it ok because the 3 guys all agreed?
I could probably sit all day and write down many examples but I think you get the point now.
Do you see how unfair this is?
"It would be unfair towards AnGsT and Degox if they couldn't complain about the games afterwards but u could"
^^ Please tell me you aren't serious?
It's THEIR fault for assuming walrus agreed, unless they can provide evidence that walrus agreed to play TuS, these games should definitely 100% be void.
Quote from: Senator on February 11, 2016, 10:39 AM
Only hard facts matter :P
Exactly, and the hard fact is walrus didn't agree, case closed.
EVERY PLAYER INVOLVED IN PLAYING SHOULD CONFIRM/BE AWARE IT'S AN OFFICIAL TUS MATCH.
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
So if 3 guys have sex with a drunk, passed out woman, even though she was unaware it would make it ok because the 3 guys all agreed?
Don't know how you pull out these comparisons on some casual non-important W:A stuff, on daily basis...
But I find it hilarious from time to time.
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
So technically I could grab 2 friends, play a funner with some newcomer who doesn't know any better, report it as TuS as long as me and the 2 other people agreed on TuS?
Then one of u would agree on losing along with a guy who has no clue he is playing a tus game. Would u be willing to play along with a such guy?
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
It's THEIR fault for assuming walrus agreed, unless they can provide evidence that walrus agreed to play TuS, these games should definitely 100% be void.
Eh. messi represented team messi&Walrus. AnGsT and Degox had all the reason to assume they were playing a tus game after messi said "ye this is tus".
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
So if 3 guys have sex with a drunk, passed out woman, even though she was unaware it would make it ok because the 3 guys all agreed?
This is pretty much what happened to Walrus, yeah. :D
Quote from: Senator on February 11, 2016, 11:42 AM
Eh. messi represented team messi&Walrus. AnGsT and Degox had all the reason to assume they were playing a tus game after messi said "ye this is tus".
Not really, after messi agreed Degox / AnGsT should have said something like 'is that ok with you as well Wally?'. Would have taken 30 seconds and saved all this trouble. Plus they were speaking Spanish when asking if it was tus, which is not fair really.
Quote from: Sensei on February 11, 2016, 11:30 AM
Don't know how you pull out these comparisons on some casual non-important W:A stuff, on daily basis...
The problem is, too many people are easy to dismiss an example based on their personal feelings towards the severity of each situation.
When I use examples like these the severity of the example is irrelevant, it's the logic behind the example that matters.
I don't understand why people fail to grasp this :o
Quote from: Senator on February 11, 2016, 11:42 AM
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
So technically I could grab 2 friends, play a funner with some newcomer who doesn't know any better, report it as TuS as long as me and the 2 other people agreed on TuS?
Then one of u would agree on losing along with a guy who has no clue he is playing a tus game. Would u be willing to play along with a such guy?
Why are you focusing on semantics instead of the overall logic?
I can't believe I have to answer this though...
Of course the 3 people involved would play along, it wouldn't work unless they did. *sigh* That was the whole point.
Quote from: Senator on February 11, 2016, 11:42 AM
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
It's THEIR fault for assuming walrus agreed, unless they can provide evidence that walrus agreed to play TuS, these games should definitely 100% be void.
Eh. messi represented team messi&Walrus. AnGsT and Degox had all the reason to assume they were playing a tus game after messi said "ye this is tus".
Absolutely not!
messi represents messi
AnGsT represents AnGsT
Degox represents Degox
walrus represents walrus
2v2 TuS games attribute towards INDIVIDUAL PLAYER STANDINGS.
Each player should confirm it's an official game, surely you must understand this?
Edit:
Also, if messi were to represent walrus, you would need evidence at some point walrus stating that messi is representing him, and he didn't.
@TheWalrus,
It's not about that I don't believe you. Actually I do. But it's about 3 other people who assumed it was TUS. Voiding a game like that, is simply a disrespect towards them and I'm not even mentioning the obvious hole it creates for future possible abuses. (1 out of 4 people could simply deny acknowledgement and cause the game to get void)
@Komito,
I think you would do great if you worked for some news agency. You could make some catchy news headlines out of simple events.
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
So technically I could grab 2 friends, play a funner with some newcomer who doesn't know any better, report it as TuS as long as me and the 2 other people agreed on TuS?
None of the 4 people involved on these matches are TUS newbies nor W:A newbies.
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
My parents don't know but I gave permission to the other 2 guys to take stuff from their house and sell it on ebay, this makes it ok?
That's not similar to a 2vs2 match, but to answer your example, yes. If your parents follow up the process, they will eventually have to deal with what their son did behind their back.
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
So if 3 guys have sex with a drunk, passed out woman, even though she was unaware it would make it ok because the 3 guys all agreed?
So a foursome sex is like a competition? Like 2vs2 competition? Whose side the drunk woman is on?
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on February 11, 2016, 12:08 PM
@TheWalrus,
Voiding a game like that, is simply a disrespect towards them and I'm not even mentioning the obvious hole it creates for future possible abuses. (1 out of 4 people could simply deny acknowledgement and cause the game to get void)
By not voiding it you are creating a way for people to cheat, now that people know they can get away with this, who is to stop people from doing it? (3 out of 4 people could simply say they agreed to TUS in order to get free points).
Notice how I used your own arguement against you? ;)
You are sacrificing the innocent person, the victim, instead of helping him.
If you delete the game(which you should) nobody loses anything, if you keep the game, you ruin the impressive BnG streak walrus has worked hard for.
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on February 11, 2016, 12:08 PM
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
So technically I could grab 2 friends, play a funner with some newcomer who doesn't know any better, report it as TuS as long as me and the 2 other people agreed on TuS?
None of the 4 people involved on these matches are TUS newbies nor W:A newbies.
Not only is your comment irrelevant to the point I made, the level of skill or experience of a player is irrelevant to them agreeing/being aware of an official match.
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on February 11, 2016, 12:08 PM
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
My parents don't know but I gave permission to the other 2 guys to take stuff from their house and sell it on ebay, this makes it ok?
That's not similar to a 2vs2 match, but to answer your example, yes. If your parents follow up the process, they will eventually have to deal with what their son did behind their back.
Being similar to a 2v2 match is irrelevant, it's the logical reasoning behind Senators statement which I was attacking.
If the situation was the same, that being walrus was the parents and the other 3 guys were messi, AnGsT and Degox, and that walrus has evidence he has been wronged, he would be victorious and the 3 criminals would be arrested.
Not only is it possible to prosecute family, it happens all over the world regulary.
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on February 11, 2016, 12:08 PM
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 11:17 AM
So if 3 guys have sex with a drunk, passed out woman, even though she was unaware it would make it ok because the 3 guys all agreed?
So a foursome sex is like a competition? Like 2vs2 competition? Whose side the drunk woman is on?
My example portrays rape, I think you can figure it out.
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 01:13 PM
By not voiding it you are creating a way for people to cheat, now that people know they can get away with this, who is to stop people from doing it? (3 out of 4 people could simply say they agreed to TUS in order to get free points).
How would all 3 cheaters get free points again? That's not irrelevant :D
In this case messi didn't confirm his partner is on radar and paid the price for it (he lost as many points as Walrus did).
You like examples so here is one:
You and Walrus are looking for 2vs2 tus bng on AG
I agree with VoK in PM that we will play but VoK won't say a word about tus to u
I say "wait I ask VoK" to u on AG and a moment later "ok let's do 2vs2 tus bng"
Then we lose the game and VoK says he thought it was a funner
Hands up who would have confirmed from VoK individually that he is aware he is playing tus?
This Walrus case is a bit different though and MI makes or made the final call.
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on February 11, 2016, 12:08 PM
@TheWalrus,
It's not about that I don't believe you. Actually I do. But it's about 3 other people who assumed it was TUS. Voiding a game like that, is simply a disrespect towards them and I'm not even mentioning the obvious hole it creates for future possible abuses. (1 out of 4 people could simply deny acknowledgement and cause the game to get void)
What I want to know is when were the rules changed, and then not updated on the league rules page? The game does not conform to what you clearly lay down as a TUS game on the rules page, (when were the agreement rules changed, where not all parties have to agree anymore?)
@TheWalrus,
Maybe the rules are not clear on that matter. The rules are about agreement on both "parties". If messi also claimed that he didn't know it was TUS. Then we had a clean case of disagreement.
I've PMed Degox and Angst and pointed them to this topic.
@Komito,
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 01:13 PM
By not voiding it you are creating a way for people to cheat, now that people know they can get away with this, who is to stop people from doing it? (3 out of 4 people could simply say they agreed to TUS in order to get free points).
Notice how I used your own arguement against you? ;)
Using someone's own argument against them is when you point to a more obvious outcome that is more likely to happen that they missed it in the first place. My argument (one member complaining about not knowing TUS) has happened several times on TUS while yours (3 out of 4) has never happened. 3 people must deliberately plan to lie to hurt another member which is much less likely to happen. Therefore you didn't use my own argument against me because you pointed to a rare outcome.
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 01:13 PM
If you delete the game(which you should) nobody loses anything, if you keep the game, you ruin the impressive BnG streak walrus has worked hard for.
People have put their time and energy for those games. Simply removing them is like ignoring their effort.
We're not enemies here. Messi simply agreed for the games to be deleted. We could come to an agreement instead of making dramatic examples.
hihi
(http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/fosawards2015uy28scar9g.jpg)
Quote from: Senator on February 11, 2016, 04:24 PM
You like examples so here is one:
You and Walrus are looking for 2vs2 tus bng on AG
I agree with VoK in PM that we will play but VoK won't say a word about tus to u
I say "wait I ask VoK" to u on AG and a moment later "ok let's do 2vs2 tus bng"
Then we lose the game and VoK says he thought it was a funner
Hands up who would have confirmed from VoK individually that he is aware he is playing tus?
This Walrus case is a bit different though and MI makes or made the final call.
I wouldn't play unless I seen all players confirm TuS, if by some weird reason I did, I would accept the game should be deleted, because i'm not a bad person with poor morals and bad judgement.
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on February 11, 2016, 06:27 PM
@Komito,
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 01:13 PM
By not voiding it you are creating a way for people to cheat, now that people know they can get away with this, who is to stop people from doing it? (3 out of 4 people could simply say they agreed to TUS in order to get free points).
Notice how I used your own arguement against you? ;)
Using someone's own argument against them is when you point to a more obvious outcome that is more likely to happen that they missed it in the first place. My argument (one member complaining about not knowing TUS) has happened several times on TUS while yours (3 out of 4) has never happened. 3 people must deliberately plan to lie to hurt another member which is much less likely to happen. Therefore you didn't use my own argument against me because you pointed to a rare outcome.
Sorry MI but you are unequivocally wrong here.
I used YOUR arguement against you, I used the same logic and reasoning that you did to show that it's unfair either way, which proves your arguement is flawed and therefor cannot be used.
It doesn't matter 1/4 or 3/4, it's still wrong, either way, you should learn to accept that.
Quote from: MonkeyIsland on February 11, 2016, 06:27 PM
Quote from: Komito on February 11, 2016, 01:13 PM
If you delete the game(which you should) nobody loses anything, if you keep the game, you ruin the impressive BnG streak walrus has worked hard for.
People have put their time and energy for those games. Simply removing them is like ignoring their effort.
We're not enemies here. Messi simply agreed for the games to be deleted. We could come to an agreement instead of making dramatic examples.
Who cares if they put their time and energy into those games?
They should be 100% certain EVERYONE involved is playing a serious League match before reporting, you shouldn't reward their ignorance.
They made the mistake, not walrus.
Even if messi, angst and degox don't agree to void this game, it should still be void.
What we learned here:
[Riaan-Marais] TUS Confirmed
[William1977] tus confirmed
I still didn't get answer to the question how would all 3 players benefit from cheating someone, though.
Quote from: Senator on February 12, 2016, 08:58 AM
[Riaan-Marais] TUS Confirmed
[William1977] tus confirmed
Was waiting for this :D
Quote from: Senator on February 12, 2016, 08:58 AM
What we learned here:
[Riaan-Marais] TUS Confirmed
[William1977] tus confirmed
I still didn't get answer to the question how would all 3 players benefit from cheating someone, though.
Why don't we make this the standard? Who knows, 2 goofy south afrikans could usher in a whole new era at TUS. However this goes, whether games are deleted or not, nothing has really been solved yet, the root problem remains. I'm more interested in this NOT happening to someone else, now that I know how frustrating it is. "TUS confirmed" would leave no doubt as to each player's intentions.
Quote from: Senator on February 12, 2016, 08:58 AM
I still didn't get answer to the question how would all 3 players benefit from cheating someone, though.
Answer that yourself, write a book, make a movie, I don't care because it means nothing to me and has nothing to do with the point I made.
I was asked to post here, so here's my 2 cents
Wally didn't even know who his partner was in the first game. No matter how relaxed you are about leagues, if you're playing league, you always know who your partner is.
There's no proof that shows Wally knew it was a TUS game. Burden of proof is on the person making the claim, i.e. The people that claim it was a tus game and won.
I see no logs posted (which, btw, we ask for in the rules if I recall correctly) and I'm certain we have precedent where we told people to make sure everybody involved knew it was a league game.
Imo, void.
Couldn't be arsed to read the responses in this thread, since they didn't contain logs, so sorry for the laziness there ;D I did read the logs in the games, though.
(https://www.tus-wa.com/Themes/default/images/post/thumbup.gif)
Quote from: DarkOne on February 12, 2016, 07:35 PM
I see no logs posted (which, btw, we ask for in the rules if I recall correctly)
Afterthought, I found the part where we asked for it. It's actually in the sticky called "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING". (caps didn't help, apparently :()
Quote from: DarkOne on November 03, 2011, 05:49 PM
When you post a complaint, please help us with these guide lines. They will save us a lot of time, so we can solve complaints faster.
- ...
- 5. If someone reported a funner, post logs.
[...]
@5: Logs can be found in your user/logs directory. It stores all conversations from game lobbies, for example: [attachment=1]
This isn't a court room, we make our decisions based on the factual information that's presented to us, not primarily by opinions. Partly, because some people can't help themselves and deliver a quite lenghty oration and to be blunt:
(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/57/57e9382866017197499fa922ab6f60adf36d0ed47808c3e0632477c432cefcaa.jpg)
logs were already uploaded to TUS's surrogate, senator.
But just because I like you, Marc:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HfQL2QL4vox1ttK6FKVkS4Nb9qVz93UyMYHQ612DjH8/edit?usp=sharing
You are a peach :)
Picard approves (http://cdn.meme.am/instances/58292756.jpg).
(http://archgh.org/default/Conclave/blog/March13-WhiteSmoke.jpg)
Actually we didn't reach a clear consensus on this one but the games will be void. This kind of case is quite rare (2vs2 funners turned into tus games while one player wasn't monitoring the game chat). Usually a player must know he is in a 2vs2 tus game after all the AG/lobby chats.
Thank you, i am trying to get everyone to say "TUS confirmed" especially in 2v2's for this very reason, hopefully good can come out of this