The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: Sensei on December 14, 2023, 07:32 PM
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Hello all.
MonkeyIsland already approved it, so current Aerial TUS scheme will be changed to a modified, more competitive one.
Current: https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-312/
New: https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-2175/ (BO3 mandatory)
This thread is started just because I want to hear community's opinion on crates. Right now, they're still in the scheme.
1. Should I leave them in, since they've been there since PS1 days and they do make a visible change when compared to Hysteria? Without crates, my opinion is that they would be quite similar and there's no reason to have that in a single league.
2. Should I leave them in, but change % probabilities of some strong weapons/utilities.. And if yes, which % you'd choose and why? (after clicking scheme link, at the right side of the screen, you'll see all percentages that are there right now)
3. Should they be completely removed?
As stated many times before, throughout years - this scheme is thoroughly tested and played by hundreds since its modification back in 2016. I believe majority of people that played it would vouch for it to become a new league scheme and it finally will. All that is needed now is your opinion about crates situation. Please do not derail this thread in some drama affair or go and speak about different schemes and their placement in leagues. It's for Aerial and Aerial solely.
Changes from current league scheme:
* Rounds are changed from BO1 to BO3
* Sudden death added (middle level of water rise)
* Mines switched from random to 3 seconds
* Uzi removed
* Mortars switched from 4 to 2
* Petrols switched from 4 to 2
Thank you all.
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can utilities be disabled? its either damage x2 which hardly ever works, useless laser sight, or silly ass invis. That's my biggest issue with drops. If you can tweak it to drop certain weapons that would be the best thing, no donkey or mikes would be good. Makes the scheme less competitive. SD should be the norm, ofc. I think everyone agrees on that point, and also 3sec mines are a must, thats the worst part of tus scheme.
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Usually I'd vote for #3 immediately, #2 is an interesting choice as well...
My main issue with crates, currently at least, is that they can dramatically change the outcome of a match and to me that's considered lucky. Of course, I don't like luck suddenly changing, or at the very least, having a major impact on the outcome of a match.
Though, if the crate probabilities were changed to be closer to let's say, the TUS WxW scheme, so things like HHG, invisibility and others are removed. That luck wouldn't matter.
Then again if the luck became such a way it had no effect, then why have it at all?
Guess I'll just stick with #3 after all.
1 question though, why best of 3?
I like how this looks though, could I suggest making the Bo3 optional though? Or at least agreeable to Bo1 with opponents also please.
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Oh yeah im not in favor of any scheme being bo3 in league except inter and even that id prefer bo1
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@walrus - if you hover/jump over utility at the end of your 5sec retreat time, what you collect can be used in your next turn (then x2 dmg, double turn time, invisibility, lg.. comes in handy.. even OP). Although, that kind of tactic can result in picking up something meaningless like fast walk and then you risked your hiding position for nothing.. which is quite amusing and gives these crate crate drops real meaning.. to even pick it up at the right time to get transfered in 2nd round already requires lot of skill and training.
@komo - bo3 is mandatory cause random placements and addition of sudden death. It really is benefitial for scheme like this. Both players need to start first in at least 1 game, it's the fair way. Since sudden death is on, round can last up to maximum of 12 minutes if I recall right.. in worst case scenario - BO3 will last up to 36 minutes (which will never really happen).. While there are games of BnG that can take up to 45+ minutes sometimes.. Kaos games probably even more. Intermediate probably also.. I guess you see where I'm going with this.
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Why not try to make Aerial suitable for Bo1 then?
I'm on the "Bo3 matches suck" boat.
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Well, I don't have much experience playing Aerial, but it is an amazing scheme, and I enjoy it. I plan in the future playing more Aerial. Despite my inexperience playing the scheme, I must say that I do have experience balancing schemes and creating schemes. So, I would like to give my opinion, and I think you should consider it:
About the crates, recently I played that Intermediate tournament that was the real and official Intermediate, not the ONL or CWT scheme. It was an interesting experience playing it competitively. The first thing that caught my attention is that the crates have an impactful effect during the game, specially the fact that they can explode. When you see a crate near an enemy, you have a dilema: should I take the crate and risk finding a shitty weapon, should I take the crate and try to get that powerful weapon that will lead me to the comeback I'm needing? Or should I just explode that crate and burn the enemy worm to secure a kill or a good damage?
I like the possibilities and game-changing things that the crates add to the game. Crates bring more diversity, make players think more what they should do, since the situation can change a lot from one turn to the next one. At the same time something completely unpredictable on a scheme is bad, way too much luck is bad. I don't like the original "Kaos Normal" scheme, because that scheme is completely unbalanced. Anything going in the Kaos Normal direction would be bad in my opinion, but some crates would be cool, because I think they combine well with a scheme centered on Jet Pack skills and short time. My scheme Jet Pack War (https://worms2d.info/Jet_Pack_War) is similar to Aerial and has a lot of crates, I like to collect crates with Jet Pack on schemes like this.
I'm against utilities in crates. One of the reasons I enjoy Neocombat (https://worms2d.info/Neocombat) is that it doesn't have utility crates. It is unfortunate that WA doesn't have much control in utility crates, so Damage x2, Double Turn Time, Invisibility, Laser Sight can spawn when usually scheme makers would want more Jet Pack and Low Gravity in utility crates. Kaos mod is a workaround that honestly is far from the ideal, so I think even using Kaosmod settings for utility crates wouldn't be sufficient in terms of good balance. That's why I don't want to see utility crates in Aerial. At least until 3.9 or other version that brings inovations to the scheme makers work.
About the original Aerial scheme, I never played WA in PS1, so I never played and I'm not sure exactly what is the feeling of playing the original PS1 Aerial. I didn't know it has crates, I wonder if the crates are rare or common, and the weapon probabilities... All I know is that it has 45 seconds of turn time and infinite grenade (https://web.archive.org/web/20010424072357/http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/worms/wa/psxschemes.cgi?aerial=y), so it surely was completely different from HHC's scheme called Aerial and Sensei's variation (modification) of it.
I like Sudden Death in schemes. I agree that Aerial has a very short playing time, so bo3 is not a bad idea, specially if the scheme has some luck factors such as bad spawnings and crates. Although, I like playing bo1 games. bo3 sometimes force people to play the same thing again, when they want to diversify things a bit. I think in leagues it wouldn't be so cool to play 3 rounds to receive a single victory. 3 rounds are 3 rounds, 3 different games, so all the games should be counted. In this sense, I think I prefer bo1 Aerial.
The weapons probabilities in the crates are strange for me. Banana and Super weapons seem very OP for aerial. I think they could be removed. Weapons that when found give x3 ammo like Cluster Bomb, Girders, or petrol that gives x2 ammo, seem to have way too much chance. I know that in Sensei's scheme crates are rare. I don't know if it would be better with more crates spawning on the map or keeping them rare. I think only weapons that require some skill to play and are not way too much OP should appear in crates. The weapons in crates should be different from the ones that players start with some ammo. Maybe only a few crates containg more ammo for already in inventory weapons. I think Axe, should be rare, or removed from crates. It is an early game weapon and melee, it doesn't make so much sense to me, since, health crates are very rare too and give only 25 HP.
Aerial without crates would cut a bit of the luck and make it more "competitive" maybe, it wouldn't be bad. But, the crates would bring fun to it, in my opinion.
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I changed my mind about bo3. I played Aerial to test the scheme, the scheme is very short, and start positions matter. bo1 would mean that whoever starts would have an advantage. Best of 3 solves the problem. It's better for aerial.
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I'm in favor for BO3 as well but "mandatory" means we have to watch bo1 games and void them. We don't do that. Intermediate is BO3 but sometimes players report as BO1. We could set the default as BO3 and BO1 upon agreement.
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Ah, no, didn't mean to say that then. I'm always in favour of players mutually agreeing on stuff.
Bo3 by default was the word I was looking for, thx MI.
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As long as it's sort of optional, that's fine. :)
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I'm voting for 3. Crates are rare so they don't really make much of a difference to Hysteria. Aerial and Hysteria are different enough with or without crates. Crates seem like unnecessary luck element to me.
Was Bo1 a big problem in the current TUS scheme? If SD makes a difference, increase the round time?
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I'm landing on no crates, bo1, longer round time. Bo3 by agreement, but most schemes are bo1 and makes for a better league serving of 2 games of tus total per match.
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For what it's worth, I'm with TheWalrus here.
Bo1 rounds and no crates.
I don't understand why anyone would even want crate drops in a scheme where they already have sufficient means to annhilate their enemy.
They are pretty rare, but I've seen HHGs and Sheep etc in crates in Aerial, which can definitely turn the tide of a game.
Even if you get a useless weapon in a crate, it still changes the outcome of the game as the player now has to play differently to try and adapt for all the weapons you COULD have. Which is another reason why it sucks and why it should be removed imo.
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Just edit HHC aerial scheme SD and crates off. bo1 or what ever agreed.
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For what it's worth, people that are saying the scheme is best when it is bo3 are correct, I just like shorter and more games played/logged. I think inter should be bo1 too, ofc there is variance involved, but tus elo based system and more games played will selfcorrect over time. Sometimes everyone (myself included) gets so hung up on little amounts of variance that may swing games/series when elo exists to fix this on a longitudinal scale.
Inter bo3 just seems weird to me, if any scheme in all-round should be bo3 because of luck/turn variance it should be t17.
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For what it's worth, people that are saying the scheme is best when it is bo3 are correct
Ok, maybe I'm NOT with James then! :D
Well, what are we talking about when saying "best"?
In what way is it the best? In this case, I assume we're talking about Bo3 balances out the luck of positions etc.
Though, if it's the "best" because it eliminates luck and "balances the scheme", then that just tells me personally that proper thought hasn't been put into the scheme in the first place!
Why not change the scheme settings to make it Bo1 to begin with? Rather than make it more luck based THEN added Bo3 to eliminate that luck... It seems pointless and a waste of time.
So, I'd possibly agree that THIS specific variation of Aerial is "best" when played Bo3 with the sole purpose in mind of making it more balanced in the context of "luck".
In terms of being a straight up better choice of what is better Aerial scheme overall though... I'd strongly disagree, and would rather make it more balanced initially without having to resort to Bo3.
I strongly believe any scheme that even needs Bo3 or more specifically for the purpose of balancing "luck" is an automatic nope in my opinion to begin with.
That's why I don't play Intermediate, ever.
I just like shorter and more games played/logged. I think inter should be bo1 too, ofc there is variance involved, but tus elo based system and more games played will selfcorrect over time. Sometimes everyone (myself included) gets so hung up on little amounts of variance that may swing games/series when elo exists to fix this on a longitudinal scale.
Inter bo3 just seems weird to me, if any scheme in all-round should be bo3 because of luck/turn variance it should be t17.
Yeah, I'd prefer Intermediate to be Bo1 as well, though would have to change the scheme... Though the problem with Intermediate being it is the most traditional scheme we know of, probably!
People aren't willing to change tradition because it can change the entire feeling of the game, to be honest Aerial is old enough now it kind of could suffer from the same thing. I really like Aerial but in my opinion it isn't a properly balanced scheme yet and never has been.
The biggest reasons why Intermediate is Bo3 - Automatic placements and barrels/mines.
We could make manual placement, but some people feel that's what makes the scheme so good.
Anyway, what's the issue with changing Aerial to be more balanced in Bo1? What's the problem? Wouldn't editing the scheme to be more suitable for Bo1 be better no?
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FoxHound thought this scheme needs to be BO1.
I invited him in the game that night. We played two BO3's, 4 games altogether.. With bunch of failing, those two BO3 games were still done under 20 minutes. So, 5 minutes per game! He changed his opinion after that.
If a person decides on playing TUS and wants to have his/hers hard earned points potentially lost in next 5 minutes, that's okay. But I think everyone that goes into a league match, don't mind the game to take 10+ minutes.. Am I imaginating this?
Even Walrus agreeing this is best played in BO3, even though he's vouching for BO1.
I think we should stick with what MI already said. Make it default BO3 and leave it to players to agree if they want to shorten it out. Cause, even with BO3, these games are usually shorter than most of the other BO1 league schemes. That's a fact. Everything else is just a personal preference. I'd love if MI stopped further speculations about it and just decides on his own, since we're running in circles now.
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FoxHound thought this scheme needs to be BO1.
I invited him in the game that night. We played two BO3's, 4 games altogether.. With bunch of failing, those two BO3 games were still done under 20 minutes.
He changed his opinion after that.
Even Walrus agreeing this is best played in BO3, even though he's vouching for BO1.
I think we should stick with what MI already said. Make it default BO3 and leave it to players to agree if they want to shorten it out. Cause, even with BO3, these games are usually shorter than most of the other BO1 league schemes. That's a fact. Everything else is just a personal preference. I'd love if MI stopped further speculations about it and just decides on his own, since we're running in circles now.
Why is there a problem with making the scheme suitable for Best of 1 anyway? So that the game doesn't NEED more rounds to balance out "luck"?
Have you even tried to make it suitable for Bo1 yet? If yes, what did you try and why didn't it succeed?
If the scheme is so unbalanced that a player can get "robbed" then surely it's possible to get robbed twice in a row anyway? No? So what's the point?
How long it takes to play isn't even the issue here! If you enjoy something you would likely play it multiple times in a row.
I want to specifically question this:
Cause, even with BO3, these games are usually shorter than most of the other BO1 league schemes. That's a fact. Everything else is just a personal preference.
Are you trying to make a good scheme, or a quick scheme? I get the impression it's more focused on making it faster, than actually optimally balanced for Best of 1 matches. What's the rush anyway?
You would need to play lots of matches with lots of players and do proper statistical analysis. Not 4 random games, especially funners with nothing to lose!
I want to see 2 players who are good and both absolutely HATE losing go up against each other. I want to see players like Zwitter, guys who don't give up easily, people who will play darkside and play darkside very well.
I could be wrong though with this assumption, though do assume Sensei beat FoxHound. No offence to FoxHound but Sensei is pretty highly skilled at artillery schemes, especially Aerial, FoxHound not so much, he's not bad, but the difference is substantial. Even when Sensei is pretty inactive and rusty, he still wins 4 rounds to 0.
Sorry but Sensei Vs FoxHound is not a good enough example.
I will keep an eye on future matches though to see how other people play and how it impacts the scheme.
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You would need to play lots of matches with lots of players and do proper statistical analysis. Not 4 random games, especially funners with nothing to lose!
(https://i.ibb.co/YRy3Rzq/Screenshot-4.png) (https://imgbb.com/)
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Since when was a picture showing you've played 236 games proper statistical analysis?
All that tells me is you've played 236 games, nothing else! :D
Did you calculate the average round time from every single one of those matches?
Did you compare how each of your opponents play against you, and each other?
Etc...
Also, I'll ask these questions again:
Why is there a problem with making the scheme suitable for Best of 1 anyway?
Have you even tried to make it suitable for Bo1 yet? If yes, what did you try and why didn't it succeed?
Are you trying to make a good scheme, or a quick scheme?
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@TheKomodo,
The BO3 is not an issue here. Being default BO3 and BO1 on agreement is not a big deal. There are lots of Intermediate matches that was played BO1 on TUS even though its default is BO3. This thread focus is about the crates drop role.
That image is Sensei's Aerial games count. He has played the most games.
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/free-standings/Aerial/
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The BO3 is not an issue here.
Yes it is, or nobody would be talking about it.
Even a few on Discord have mentioned they don't like Aerial being Bo3, though I wish they would post here as well... That happens a lot, people avoid threads even though their input would be valued.
Being default BO3 and BO1 on agreement is not a big deal. There are lots of Intermediate matches that was played BO1 on TUS even though its default is BO3.
It IS a big deal for people who DO NOT want to play Bo3 Aerial!
Or...
If it isn't a big deal, why not make it Bo1 default and Bo3 for those who feel the same way as Sensei?
This thread focus is about the crates drop role.
Should we open a new thread to debate the rest of the scheme then?
That image is Sensei's Aerial games count. He has played the most games.
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/free-standings/Aerial/
Yeah... That's obvious. :D *Facepalm*
The point is that there's no statistical analysis behind those 236 games in the manner we were speaking of, which is why "236" games is useless information to everyone else.
He needs to elaborate properly in detail.
How long it takes isn't even an issue, though for proper analysis you would need to study all of those games, and games of OTHER players as well, THEN do some proper kind of analysis with seriously considered pros and cons.
We need quality, not quantity here.
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Keep crates but remove some op stuff like air strikes, those felt cheap, hated winning by it. Bo3 ofc
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I agree with keeping crates (weapon + health), this scheme needs to be totally different than hysteria. Bo3 format, usual roundtime (not too long, cuz of the bo3) around 90 seconds. Maybe weaponcrates should contain dynamites, sheep, petrols, teleport only, disable everything else. So that we know and can expect what the enemy might have in store (no aerial weapons like airstrike, as pavle just said). It should be useful weapons so that it worth taking the risk going for it, not sth like blowtorch or skunk.
Smaller weapons like mortar, uzi, petrol (2-4 ammo of these) should remain as well to make it different once again from hyst
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Why do you want to play shopper in a scheme that is NOT a shopper?
If you want to play Shopper, if you want to play schemes with that kind of luck and random stuff, you have Team17, Shopper, WxW and Kaos etc...
If you want a truly skill based scheme, then schemes like Aerial, Intermediate, Elite should never have had crates in the first place! :D
Here's an idea, instead of adding crates, why don't you just add more weapons lol! Or you really need luck to make the game fun?
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Why do you want to play shopper in a scheme that is NOT a shopper?
If you want to play Shopper, if you want to play schemes with that kind of luck and random stuff, you have Team17, Shopper, WxW and Kaos etc...
If you want a truly skill based scheme, then schemes like Aerial, Intermediate, Elite should never have had crates in the first place! :D
Here's an idea, instead of adding crates, why don't you just add more weapons lol! Or you really need luck to make the game fun?
cratedrop is rare in aerial, it has 10% chance by default. shopper has 100% cratedrop chance, not sure if you can see the diff now? ;o there is unnecessary luck element in aerial from the start, like worm spawns. (it will never be like Elite where you spawn them manually) in hysteria you can tele anywhere anytime, but in aerial you have 1 teleport. having 10% cratedrop chance added to the scheme doesn't really turn it into a shopper right? it rather means: balancing the luck factors into something more fair/equal
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cratedrop is rare in aerial, it has 10% chance by default. shopper has 100% cratedrop chance, not sure if you can see the diff now?
Of course not, I assumed there were 5x crates dropping every Aerial turn! :D
;o there is unnecessary luck element in aerial from the start, like worm spawns. (it will never be like Elite where you spawn them manually) in hysteria you can tele anywhere anytime, but in aerial you have 1 teleport. having 10% cratedrop chance added to the scheme doesn't really turn it into a shopper right? it rather means: balancing the luck factors into something more fair/equal
Having any crates drop at all is introducing luck though, and this kind of luck can be OP in a scheme like this.
At least in Team17/Shopper both players start with almost nothing and the whole point of the game is to adapt to whatever you get in the crates as weapons.
Aerial is about skill and winning with the weapons/utilities already supplied! Why do you even need more weapons? If you need more weapons then give it to BOTH players at the start of the game.
I honestly sometimes think this is a website for gambling addicts... Just admit it, you want crates because you like the buzz of excitement you get! You're hooked to the "what if!".
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cratedrop is rare in aerial, it has 10% chance by default. shopper has 100% cratedrop chance, not sure if you can see the diff now? ;o there is unnecessary luck element in aerial from the start, like worm spawns. (it will never be like Elite where you spawn them manually) in hysteria you can tele anywhere anytime, but in aerial you have 1 teleport. having 10% cratedrop chance added to the scheme doesn't really turn it into a shopper right? it rather means: balancing the luck factors into something more fair/equal
I agree with Lupastic. It's far from a Shopper. It is not Quickdraw that doesn't have crates. I think that if the original Aerial from PS1 and HHC's scheme have crates in the scheme, then I think crates are part of the concept. Crates with Jet Pack are a good combination. I played with Sensei and I realized that the crates add a lot of fun to the game. It changes things. You cannot simply wait on the edge of the map for the eternity, using the wind like in Hysteria. If you do this, The oponent has more time to catch you, and if it is risky to catch you, a crate can be really scary. Crates pressure the game a lot more, because if you darkside, the opponent will control the map and collect crates. Crates make you think a lot more than a scheme without crates. They add a lot more possibilities in the game, this is something that a pro should master.
I am completely against utility crates, though. A simple Crate Shower spawn can Fu#k the whole game. In aerial, more specifically, if you collect Crate Shower is a huge disadvantage, because it will bring a lot of random crates on the map, and not for you, because you don't have time for this, the crates will benefit the enemy in the next turn. Although, Crate Shower will most likely pop few crates, because the turn is so short in Aerial... So, it's a stupid utility in Aerial. Double Turn Time is almost useless, you will double from 2 seconds to 4 seconds, and until you realize that you have 2 extra seconds, your turn already passed. Double Damage can make a huge impact, but it is more likely that a player would have a surprise to attack and see that the explosion is huge, because, you have only few seconds to play, until you think on a good use of damage x2, your turn will end, or you will attack and damage yourself. So, it's another stupid utility, since only a very in shape player would react to damage x2 so fast. Invisibility only creates darksiding, and is pointless in aerial. People don't have time to walk over the land to find hidden worms. Jet Pack is already infinite. Low gravity is the only useful utility in this scheme. Even so, we don't have much control to make crates spawn it, only the kaosmod features that are very limited.
Health crates are fine. The value is ok too, but can be discussed.
Weapon crates: Only skillful weapons, not OP ones. No air strike-like weapons. In my opinion, shitty weapons should start in arsenal and only good reliable weapon should be in crates. This way, players will make sure that if they collect a crate they will be rewarded and crates will be way more scary. Players will have to fight for a crate.
The crate rate seems good. It is nice to play the game with crates being rare. They are more a complement to the scheme this way, not a core element like in Kaos.
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FoxHound, that's a lot of words to say "Crates introduce luck".
Honestly, it sounds to me like you guys simply get bored and crack to the pressure of hide n seek situations in Hysteria/Aerial.
The whole point of hiding is because you're behind, think of it as a tactical retreat.
You want to take away a legitimate and well earned tactic and replace it with... Well... Luck and chaos lol.
And all for a bit of "fun".
Isn't the game itself fun enough for you?
This though:
Crates make you think a lot more than a scheme without crates. They add a lot more possibilities in the game, this is something that a pro should master.
:D
That's got to be the wildest thing I've ever heard about crates in WA.
Anyway... What is the point in adding "only skillful weapons" in crates when you could just add them to the scheme!
I have to actually apologize here because there's no other way to say this... I've got to be blunt. I cannot think of an easy or polite way to say this.
Getting excited over crates in a game like Aerial sounds incredibly... Simple minded. Like you're so easily amused and excited with the introduction of a bit of luck that it's not the actual weapons that get you excited, it's not the scheme Aerial that gets you excited, it's getting something in a game your opponent doesn't get.
THAT is why I said, why not just play Shopper if that's what gives you a buzz?
The whole logic behind this makes me question why you even want to associate with a game like Aerial?
Is this what has become of Worms Armageddon, to get rid of all the pure skill games and slowly turn into slot machines... Clearly crates gives you a dopamine rush. You're addicted to gambling, not healthy competition.
It's so ironic I'm not sure whether to be shocked or to laugh, but hell, I'm guilty of both anyway lol.
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I agree with Lupastic. It's far from a Shopper. It is not Quickdraw that doesn't have crates. I think that if the original Aerial from PS1 and HHC's scheme have crates in the scheme, then I think crates are part of the concept. Crates with Jet Pack are a good combination. I played with Sensei and I realized that the crates add a lot of fun to the game. It changes things. You cannot simply wait on the edge of the map for the eternity, using the wind like in Hysteria. If you do this, The oponent has more time to catch you, and if it is risky to catch you, a crate can be really scary. Crates pressure the game a lot more, because if you darkside, the opponent will control the map and collect crates. Crates make you think a lot more than a scheme without crates. They add a lot more possibilities in the game, this is something that a pro should master.
I think I understand where you are coming from, but possibly shows your inexperience with the scheme and strategy in general. I could understand how it seems like this could be correct about the crates, but ultimately it is the inverse. While darksiding allows the opponent to collect crates, this isn't so powerful as to compell a worm to stay on top just to collect theoretical crates.
I would, however, like you to believe that it is and don't hide your worms against me so I can kill them. Crates don't appreciably increase the skill ceiling, that is pretty much nonsense. That being said, I don't have an issue with crates in this scheme. I don't think they add much, but they aren't an issue.
After a bit of discussion on this, pretty much the only issue with the original TUS (HHC) scheme is random mines, and the lack of a device (sudden death) to mitigate random position and turn order losses. Crates can stay or go, mostly they will effect games and provide wins to players that get lucky that would have otherwise not won the game, but that happens in T17 too.
But come on, crates do not improve the level of play, or serve as a deep strategical gameplay mechanic. But they can be fun. Mostly they are just a big bag of nothing, those that are good at this scheme a lot don't even go out of their way to collect them.
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It's this sentence here that got me:
Crates make you think a lot more than a scheme without crates. They add a lot more possibilities in the game, this is something that a pro should master.
Think of it this way...
You can only ever do one thing at a time, and when I say one thing at a time think of it as go in one direction at a time... You can't do something, then turn back time then try something different, you have one route, one path to take you into the future.
There are multiple paths to the future though, there are almost limitless potential events that can take place between the start of the game and the end of the game.
Whether there are crates or not, there are still limitless potential events that can take place.
So it's kind of a trick, an illusion, having rare crates doesn't add a lot more possibilities in the game, they add DIFFERENT theoretical possibilities in the game.
What is DOES increase though, is luck factor, aka the almighty overlord RNG! :D
So yeah, I understand what FoxHound is getting at, but he just hasn't thought about it deep enough.
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Crates really don't do that much of a difference. After literally thousands of Aerial rounds, I never got things like Armageddon, Donkey.. Pretty rarely it happens you pull off Air strike/HHG or similar...
I don't like the idea of having only certain crates/utilities dropping. That way there won't be those midgame mindboggling situations: "should I miss one turn and go and try to get that crate on the other side... should I hover above utility for possible x2 dmg next turn, and risk losing good hide"..
The way it is now, player have options.. Crates challenge you to think about your midgame tactics. How many hp/worms you're in deficit.. Is risking a turn, or maybe a whole game worth it over some unknown crate drop?? It adds a bit fun to the scheme but it isn't gamebreaking. Better player will eventually overcome a possible lucky crate of an opponent, since bo3 there's always another try.. It balances things. Anyway, even now when weapon % probabilities are not set up in a truly competitive manner, big chances are you're gonna get something useless like a skunk or few more blow torches in that crate you risked whole round to get.
BO1 for this scheme would mean strip it apart just to make it quicker. If you remove random placements, you'll get shorter Elite. If you remove crates, you'll get a Hyst with +2 seconds. Why destroy whole concept of a scheme to make it more similar to schemes that are already part of the league?
It's like having BnG with 50hp, instead of 200hp. Why? So we can finish all league games under 3mins. Is that a competitive goal that we need to achieve here?
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This is not a joke or a dig etc, I actually don't know if you ever bother to read my posts in full Sensei, as multiple times I ask you genuine questions and you just ignore them and talk about other stuff.
So, since I'm not sure you will read all the way to the end I'll ask this twice, once now, and then again where it's actually relevant:
Though, this does make me want to ask you directly, Sensei:
What IS Aerial? At least, to YOU?
Ok, now with my actual reply!
Crates really don't do that much of a difference. After literally thousands of Aerial rounds, I never got things like Armageddon, Donkey.. Pretty rarely it happens you pull off Air strike/HHG or similar...
I've never seen super weapons myself in Aerial yet, honestly haven't even checked if they are possible!
One phenomenon in life that has always personally bugged me, is when people use "It's rare" as a reason to accept something that isn't efficient or beneficial. It happens every day all over the world in multiple aspects of everyday life. When people say "Oh it's fine, it's rare, it'll never happen to us!" though when it does happen to them, it's only THEN they realize that it didn't have to happen in the first place! They get extremely frustrated, even more so when THEY start complaining about it and everyone else says "Don't worry, it's not a big deal, it rarely ever happens!".
The sheer fact that it CAN happen, is the very reason why it shouldn't be acceptable, especially when you can EASILY solve that problem!
The way it is now, player have options.. Crates challenge you to think about your midgame tactics. How many hp/worms you're in deficit.. Is risking a turn, or maybe a whole game worth it over some unknown crate drop?? It adds a bit fun to the scheme but it isn't gamebreaking.
You said "but it isn't gamebreaking". Well, this depends on perspective. It literally does not break the game, but then again, I don't know any combination of settings that literally breaks the game.
However, one could say it ruins the whole point of competing seriously in the first place. As why bother striving for perfection when one day you will inevitably get f**ked over by a lucky crate?
Better player will eventually overcome a possible lucky crate of an opponent, since bo3 there's always another try.. It balances things. Anyway, even now when weapon % probabilities are not set up in a truly competitive manner, big chances are you're gonna get something useless like a skunk or few more blow torches in that crate you risked whole round to get.
Yeah, until it happens twice in a row, which is not only definitely possible, I've seen it happen enough times in the past 24 years over various schemes which is why I feel the way I do about "luck" in schemes.
The funny psychological aspect of this is I can still look at myself from the outside and see that I am a minority in the same sense of talking about "rare things" as I explained in the part above.
Most of you don't care because there's not a lot of people complaining about this, and the only people I ever see complain is when it happens to them on a day where they are already on edge and THAT is when they change their mind!
It's not a problem when it's the problem of the minority, but people change their tune when they become the minority.
You're right though, you could take a big risk and end up with something close to useless in a crate.
Which is funny because when I get something bad in a crate I'll say "Wtf is the point in this?" and when I get something good I still say "Wtf is the point in this?".
BO1 for this scheme would mean strip it apart just to make it quicker. If you remove random placements, you'll get shorter Elite. If you remove crates, you'll get a Hyst with +2 seconds. Why destroy whole concept of a scheme to make it more similar to schemes that are already part of the league?
I thought the purpose of making Aerial Bo1 would make it longer?
Your examples are a bit outrageous and exaggerated here lol.
By removing random placements, it's NOT Elite.
By removing crates, it's NOT Hysteria.
:D
Though, this does make me want to ask you directly, Sensei:
What IS Aerial? At least, to YOU?
It's like having BnG with 50hp, instead of 200hp. Why? So we can finish all league games under 3mins. Is that a competitive goal that we need to achieve here?
I've actually said earlier, time is not an issue, it's not about making things faster, it's about making them more skill based and less luck based, more balanced!
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Booooring
Here's a delicious recipe you should try to cook during christmas: Brodo di cardone (Cardoon in Broth)
Cardoon in broth is a typical dish from Abruzzo. What is cardoon? Cardoon belongs to the artichoke family; it is a vegetable that can reach a height of up to one and a half meters, with ribbed leaves similar to celery. In cooking, only the ribs of the plant are used. To facilitate the preparation of this exquisite dish, it is preferable to use cardoon that is already cleaned and cut into small pieces.
(https://www.ridiabruzzo.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/brodo-cardone-1066x480.jpg)
3 Eggs
1 tablespoon Pecorino cheese
2 tablespoons Parmesan cheese
to taste Salt
to taste Pepper
to taste Extra virgin olive oil
1 liter of chicken broth
Preparation
Remove the white skin covering the cardoon, then eliminate all the filaments.
Wear gloves; otherwise, your hands will remain black for days. As you fillet them, immediately immerse them in water to prevent them from turning black. At this point, cut into small pieces and let them sit in a bowl of water with lemon for a few hours to release the bitter flavor. This last step also applies to those who purchase it already cleaned.
Place a pot on the stove with plenty of cold water. Add salt, the juice of half a squeezed lemon, and a teaspoon of flour. Adding flour to the water helps the vegetable remain white and prevents it from turning black during cooking. When the water boils, add the cardoon, blanch it, and after draining, immerse it in cold water to lose its bitter taste.
Mix ground meat with 1 egg, salt, pecorino, parsley, and make small meatballs. Immerse them in boiling broth, add the drained and gently squeezed cardoon, and finish by adding the remaining eggs beaten with Parmesan and pepper. Stir quickly and serve immediately.
Merrry Christmas!
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Booooring
Here's a delicious recipe you should try to cook during christmas: Brodo di cardone (Cardoon in Broth)
Cardoon in broth is a typical dish from Abruzzo. What is cardoon? Cardoon belongs to the artichoke family; it is a vegetable that can reach a height of up to one and a half meters, with ribbed leaves similar to celery. In cooking, only the ribs of the plant are used. To facilitate the preparation of this exquisite dish, it is preferable to use cardoon that is already cleaned and cut into small pieces.
(https://www.ridiabruzzo.it/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/brodo-cardone-1066x480.jpg)
3 Eggs
1 tablespoon Pecorino cheese
2 tablespoons Parmesan cheese
to taste Salt
to taste Pepper
to taste Extra virgin olive oil
1 liter of chicken broth
Preparation
Remove the white skin covering the cardoon, then eliminate all the filaments.
Wear gloves; otherwise, your hands will remain black for days. As you fillet them, immediately immerse them in water to prevent them from turning black. At this point, cut into small pieces and let them sit in a bowl of water with lemon for a few hours to release the bitter flavor. This last step also applies to those who purchase it already cleaned.
Place a pot on the stove with plenty of cold water. Add salt, the juice of half a squeezed lemon, and a teaspoon of flour. Adding flour to the water helps the vegetable remain white and prevents it from turning black during cooking. When the water boils, add the cardoon, blanch it, and after draining, immerse it in cold water to lose its bitter taste.
Mix ground meat with 1 egg, salt, pecorino, parsley, and make small meatballs. Immerse them in boiling broth, add the drained and gently squeezed cardoon, and finish by adding the remaining eggs beaten with Parmesan and pepper. Stir quickly and serve immediately.
Merrry Christmas!
Nice, but where is the recipe for boiled gufo?
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Aerial scheme by HHC is so much better.
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Nice, but where is the recipe for boiled gufo?
You are an awful person
(https://www.icegif.com/wp-content/uploads/groundhog-icegif-17.gif)
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I believe that the smartest thing to do is to only consider the opinions of those who are actually playing worms, more specifically leagues and the scheme in question.
That being said, FoxHound is a schem enthusiast, even if he's not an active player in the league, his opinions has a much more relevant value to the discussion than people who have been here longer but whose great achievement is being a full time forum poster, please reconsider and move on with this.
Not trying to get too personal here, it's just the way I think it's worth solving.
People who really have a reputation for pushing the scheme forward should have the final say (without considering MI obiously, he's the final Boss).
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I believe that the smartest thing to do is to only consider the opinions of those who are actually playing worms, more specifically leagues and the scheme in question.
No, that's actually nowhere near the smartest thing to do.
If we(the entire human race) did that in general for everything, we would fail miserably.
What we SHOULD do, is use a healthy balance of logical and emotional thinking, consume all the information available to us and THEN make a decision.
So in reality the dumbest thing we could do, is take your hatred-based advice.
Side note, I do actually still play Worms Armageddon and the scheme in question though.
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So.....edit out airstrike probability of crates, 3 sec mines, SD. Those seem to be the ones everyone agrees on? Everything else there is conjecture, but those seem to be ironclad. Crates are already there and probably should be kept if there is no consensus. There has been no support of non-SD aerial, and no support of random mines. That already makes the scheme better, and would be changes I think will satisfy everyone.
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So.....edit out airstrike probability of crates, 3 sec mines, SD. Those seem to be the ones everyone agrees on? Everything else there is conjecture, but those seem to be ironclad. Crates are already there and probably should be kept if there is no consensus. There has been no support of non-SD aerial, and no support of random mines. That already makes the scheme better, and would be changes I think will satisfy everyone.
Nope.
There are people here can't even answer genuine simple questions or even SLIGHTLY back up why this scheme is even being suggested in the first place.
All we've got is "I've played 236 games, so I get to decide".
Not everybody agrees on those, which is evident for anyone who reads the entire thread(ignoring the non-related posts).
Though, unfortunately imo, I'll give you that the majority agrees with this ridiculous scheme setup lol.
Though what does it matter, there are so many trainwrecks in Allround and Free League so why should we bother trying to fix it anyway...
I'm being sarcastic, but that seems to be the general consensus anyway. :D
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So in reality the dumbest thing we could do, is take your hatred-based advice.
You do this a lot in your posts. An unnecessary attack. It doesn't change Kaleu's opinion. It just pollutes the thread.
All we've got is "I've played 236 games, so I get to decide".
If you think Sensei's 236 is nonsense, why don't you play with him a series of aerial matches? Show us the results. I'm sure we'll profit.
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You do this a lot in your posts. An unnecessary attack. It doesn't change Kaleu's opinion. It just pollutes the thread.
Are you blind?
It was a counter-attack, actually. Though yes, I do it a lot, because people attack me a lot unprovoked because they can't debate the actual facts they just attack the people they don't like instead.
You look at my entire history of posts and you will see this pattern where they resort to ad-hominems, and yes I'm more than happy to fight fire with fire, I grew up that way.
It's very rare where I actually lose my temper out of nowhere first.
Of course I'm going to defend myself when people say stupid things directed at me.
As for playing with Sensei, maybe I would if he was a nicer person to actually associate with. He isn't though in my opinion, so I won't.
I'm struggling to get people together to test Aerial/Forts for my own Cup :D
In conclusion:
I know I have a nerdy and persistant side that annoys people, that I go into great detail about pretty much everything and it seems to bore or annoy a lot of people, the truth is that's their problem not mine.
I know a lot of people respect me and appreciate it as well! You cannot please everyone.
There is no rule about how little or lengthy posts need to be.
When they attack me instead of attacking the actual things I'm saying, don't come at me and tell me that it's unnecessary.
I'll only end up losing respect for you to side with people making the opening attacks in the first place.
Now, I've politely asked Sensei to go into detail about Aerial multiple times and clearly he doesn't want to, for whatever reason.
That's enough to tell me that this decision is a shambles because there's no factual or logical evidence to support it.
Like me or hate me THAT is the truth.
ACTUALLY RELEVANT TO THE SUBJECT OF THE POST:
I'll ask ONE more time:
Somebody, anybody, because Sensei seems to not be bothered.
Explain why these changes are beneficial to Aerial as opposed to trying to make the scheme more suitable for Bo1.
Please, don't use "more fun" as an example for including crates, we don't add crates in every scheme for them to be fun so this is not acceptable. It feels like laziness to me.
If the goal is to make the scheme more "balanced" to be more "competitive" so that it's less "luck based", then crates simply have no place here whatsoever and that's a fact. If you want crates because you think the scheme is boring without it, then please just say that so we can separate those who enjoy luck from those who enjoy ACTUALLY balanced schemes.
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So far Sensei has accused Aerial of feeling like Hysteria and Elite by taking out crates or making it manual placement, I'd like to know how many other people, if any, agree with that statement and it's important that people answer why.
To be fair, I do like the randomness that random placements provide, though I'm sure there's other ways to tackle this than just get rid of it. To be fair though I've never even tried Aerial with manual placement, has anyone else?
If so then what were the results how did you feel it affected the gameplay? Answer on 2 levels please:
1) Did it make the scheme feel more balanced so that it doesn't matter who got 1st turn?
2) Did it make the scheme feel more or less enjoyable and why?
Last but not least! Take the following into account:
Some research has been done by Korydex and surprisingly there are more players who win who get 2nd turn that first, and that's Bo1 games:
So I've done Hyst/Aerial comparison and got some weird results.
In 991 Aerial replays first player won in 414 and second in 423.
In 1518 Hyst replays first player won in 613 and second in 629.
There were a lot of quits tho, so I guess in some games winner wasnt properly counted (draw occured).
If we skip all replays where there was a disconnect of any player it's 354/375 in Aerial and 497/522 in Hyst.
Even more shocking though is average length of aerial replay is 702,4 seconds and hysteria replay 702,95. So almost exactly the same :0
Also, as TheWalrus has pointed out, which should be obvious...
Team17 has more luck than Aerial and Intermediate combined and is only Bo1.
Why the hell do we need Bo3 for Aerial lol?
One could say that Intermediate requires it due to starting placements, though it's more about overall luck and using Bo3 as a method to balance that luck, which would still apply to Team17 in the sense of "balancing" the scheme to make it reflect the "better player".
We don't need that though because even as Sensei and others has pointed out, using their own words against them the standings still reflect the "better players" in the long run.
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I didn't answer you cause when you didn't know what next to ask and make it into a novel, you wrote: "What IS Aerial for you, Sensei!??"
I'm sorry Komo, but sometimes I just don't see a reason continuing conversation with you. If that makes me "not nice to associate with" in your eyes - then I'm sorry again.
I agree with Kaleu. This topic should be decided based on opinions of people that actually played or are about to play mentioned scheme.
@korydex - were those 991 games of Aerial played with HHC's scheme? Cause that's the one without sudden death. The one we're trying to change atm...
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I didn't answer you cause when you didn't know what next to ask and make it into a novel, you wrote: "What IS Aerial for you, Sensei!??"
I've asked you multiple times before I even asked THAT specific question and you still ignored it.
Even for the AoA Cup you lied saying you told me stuff you didn't, then after I gave evidence proving it you quickly shut up about it.
As usual, you're making excuses to avoid having a proper conversation and actually using logic to explain these actions or suggested changes to defend your opinions.
You don't like me, fine! I'm not asking you to defend me, I'm asking you to defend your scheme, and so far you haven't.
When people ask me about stuff, regardless if I like them or not I'll still take the time to answer with actual logical reasoning and give real game examples to back it up, explaining why things are the way they are or should be the way I am suggesting or defending things.
You are talking about making a massive change to a League scheme here, it should be your responsibility to back it up but you are using your personal feelings against me as an excuse to put any real effort into backing it up.
I don't like you either Sensei, it's no secret, yet I still treat you with enough respect to answer your questions aimed towards me and discussing this League because I want other people to see the advice and expertise we can offer with our combined experience.
I'm sorry Komo, but sometimes I just don't see a reason continuing conversation with you. If that makes me "not nice to associate with" in your eyes - then I'm sorry again.
To begin with, don't act like you're sorry when you're not, you're trying to save face and nobody cares lol.
You cherry pick the conversations and questions that suit you. You ignore me and others when you can't back up your words, and you always argue with me and insult me when you think you're right, then quickly shutup and flee when you get proven wrong.
If you don't want to defend your reasoning behind this scheme, fair enough, just admit it.
I am challenging you so you can actually show people it's as good as you claim it is, because I don't think it is.
This scheme could be better and that's the only reason why I'm here.
It does not need crates and it does not need to be Bo3 either.
I am asking you to defend your scheme and so far you've failed to do so, and whether you like me or not, other people will see this.
I agree with Kaleu. This topic should be decided based on opinions of people that actually played or are about to play mentioned scheme.
For starters, I have played and watched enough Worms Armageddon, Aerial/Artillery schemes and other video games and competitive events to understand this scheme and how competitively balanced it is as much as the next person.
Do you think it's actually difficult to understand lol? That would be CRAZY! :D
Anyway if this topic should be decided based on opinions of people are about to play mentioned scheme, there would be virtually nobody to actually contribute.
You WERE really active, but you're not anymore, Kaleu isn't anymore, in fact, there are very few players who are actually REALLY active in this game on a competitive level anymore other than Kaos, Team17 and Intermediate.
Also, it shows the lack of respect and knowledge you have for other people in general. Nobody needs to even play something to understand it, it's not rocket science.
You don't need to play or do anything to understand it, you just need to understand it.
If someone knows enough about how weapons and scheme settings work, and has enough experience playing and/or watching competitively in dozens of schemes, you'd be foolish to ignore their advice just because they haven't played as much as you.
There are plenty players in the history of the game and currently active who don't play Aerial yet could get better than you if they did. It doesn't mean their knowledge or your knowledge isn't good enough just because they don't play it as much as you have or aren't currently engaging in Leagues.
You've played more Aerial than me, but I've played and watched more Worms Armageddon than you, and that means... Absolutely NOTHING!
We all have valuable knowledge here but you're the only one unwilling to share.
All you and Kaleu are doing is showing ignorance and a lack of accepting reality by being that selfishly ignorant.
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@korydex - were those 991 games of Aerial played with HHC's scheme? Cause that's the one without sudden death. The one we're trying to change atm...
HAL games only. The fact that hysteria and aerial games averaged to the same length in seconds killed me ;D
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Even for the AoA Cup you lied saying you told me stuff you didn't, then after I gave evidence proving it you quickly shut up about it.
Won't even read any further. I didn't lie, nor shut up. I explained that when I told you to host SD scheme, I thought you'd realize that I was talking about TUS scheme #2175 (which name is Aerial SD) that exists for 7+ years already. Which I know 1 part of your brain was fully aware, but attention for anything that's not including yourself - is not your forte.
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I'm flipping again, no reason why it shouldn't be Bo1 when considering korydex's statistics. Also: very unexpected! I thought player1 won more often than not, I'm puzzled as to why that isn't the case.
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I'm flipping again, no reason why it shouldn't be Bo1 when considering korydex's statistics.
Keep in mind Korydex's stats were played with different scheme (no sudden death = longer games)
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Won't even read any further. I didn't lie, nor shut up. I explained that when I told you to host SD scheme, I thought you'd realize that I was talking about TUS scheme #2175 (which name is Aerial SD) that exists for 7+ years already. Which I know 1 part of your brain was fully aware, but attention for anything that's not including yourself - is not your forte.
I'm going to prove you wrong one more time, with actual facts, not assumptions, no guesses but proof of what actually happened, using YOUR OWN WORDS!
This whole thing started when I hosted the first AoA Cup and the ONLY post you made in the entire thread there was:
If there's gonna be changes in Aerial scheme (more competitive one with sudden death, 3sec mines etc.) let us know. I'd like to join.
One of the best medals I've seen, btw. Gj
Your words are a suggestion to change an Aerial scheme, not use a specific scheme.
If you wanted me to use THAT specific scheme you should have specified THAT specific scheme and I'd have considered it!
Then I actually edited the scheme based on YOUR suggestion by adding sudden death and 3s mines!
I messaged you in Discord to inform you of these changes, then you told me you couldn't play anyway.
Fair enough, there was NO problem here whatsoever.
UNTIL...
I hosted AoA #2 and you said:
I suggested you to use the scheme that's on TUS since 2016.
You rather made your "K" variant and left uzi,mortars and petrols inside, while talking about competitivity..
You did NOT suggest me to use the specific scheme that's on TUS since 2016 and you know it!
Hence, it's a lie!
If you were unaware that what you were saying is not true, then it's at the very least a confabulation on your part.
Also, whether you even realize it or not, you even ADMITTED to lying/confabulation:
When I said "sd scheme", I obviously guessed you will figure out there's one already made.Hence the discord conversation.
You know what the funny thing is... I took the specific advice you actually gave on board and made those changes mostly just to make YOU happy in the hope you would join the event.
I tried to do something nice for YOU SPECIFICALLY, to extend an arm of friendship in a manner of speaking to get you involved in the Cup, and you went on to make subtle digs at me saying it's a scheme for noobs and we're going backwards etc...
You could have use logic, evidence, examples, gameplay footage etc to try and convince me why your scheme is superior, but nope, you'd rather just insult me instead.
You're doing the same thing here Sensei, you won't defend your scheme.
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Keep in mind Korydex's stats were played with different scheme (no sudden death = longer games)
Reportedly SD helps with comebacks so stats shouldn't be any different?
Sudden Death - I feel sudden death is another needed change because of random placements and the proclivity of Bo3 matchups in this scheme. Sudden death seeks to equal the playing field, if you have bad opening positions and are behind going into SD, you have a chance to win by plopping worms. This assures no lead given to a player because of good spawns is insurmountable going into the late game. Also, it shortens boring long games where both players are hiding and unwilling to be aggressive, thus ending a standoff.
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Thx for bringing that thread back, Senator. Know I have been explaining Aerial changes multiple times in multiple posts over the years. Maybe even Komo can find some answers there. Wouldn't bet on it, though. :)
Playing time shouldn't be different, but gameplay would be a lot better with bo3 + sudden death compared to bo1 without sudden death.
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gameplay would be a lot better with bo3 + sudden death.
Why?
Define "better" and also define who it's better for while you're at it please.
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For the next season of Allround I'm gonna put this new aerial scheme to test. In worst case scenario we'll revert back. Hopefully enough games will be played on it to compare.
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New season of Free league has started and I'm gonna put this new aerial scheme to test. In worst case scenario we'll revert back. Hopefully enough games will be played on it.
Free League? It's a main scheme though.
Can you clarify please?
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Sorry my bad. I meant for the next season of Allround. (I was tweaking Free league and I had a brain lag. Edited my post)
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Sorry my bad. I meant for the next season of Allround. (I was tweaking Free league and I had a brain lag. Edited my post)
Happens to the best of us! Sounds like something IslandMonkey would do! :P
Thanks for clarifying, I was confused lol.
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We added this rule to Intermediate which is also Bo3:
You can demand Bo1 but in that case the opponent has the right to start.
Having that rule would be a bit weird though cos there's no significant first turn advantage according to the statistics.
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That's actually not a bad idea Senator! Nice!
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We added this rule to Intermediate which is also Bo3:
You can demand Bo1 but in that case the opponent has the right to start.
Having that rule would be a bit weird though cos there's no significant first turn advantage according to the statistics.
this should be in place for aerial as well, agreed