The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: TheWalrus on April 15, 2017, 02:05 PM
-
So since big rr and intermediate have been put into classic league I think the rules need some clarification.
The biggest one for me is ties in big rr. Ties are very frequent in this scheme, especially with two ropers of like ability. I've played maybe 4 big rr's since I started playing league this season, and 2 of those had a tie in them. Big rr can run up to 30 mins in length if its a long map, so I would propose one of two things:
1. A tie is broken by how much turn time is remaining (another reason to get rid of the banana, see below).
2. A tie is broken by touching finish and roping back for the remainder of turn, worm that makes it the farthest is the victor.
3. A tie is broken by both worms starting their next turn after finishing at end, and roping back towards start, whichever worm goes farther is the winner.
I think it is imperative to break ties like this, there used to be lots and lots of ties in 30 sec (small) roperace, and the ttrr system solved that.
Also, the banana needs to be removed from the scheme, it would block use of #1 tiebreaker option above, and when you boil it down, the banana is completely useless, it serves no function whatsoever, but I would be open to hearing someone that wants to explain why it is useful. If the banana is removed, there is a question of turntime, i have long since used 40 sec no banana, but some like senator favor 30 sec.
Other than that, Big rr is pretty good scheme-wise. Onto intermediate:
I think the main complaint people have with intermediate is the length of a possible Bo3. I've heard this from several members, and I can sympathize with them. Although I like intermediate and don't mind playing a Bo3, some people hate this, and I can imagine playing a Bo3 T17, which would probably cause me to suicide myself.
Since open intermediate (not cavern/cave) relies quite a bit on first turn advantage, it would be unsuitable for Bo1, but I think a Bo1 on a cave map would be just fine. There is still first turn advantage, but it isn't any more beneficial than first turn in say, elite.
To summarize:
Intermediate by default is Bo3 (1st: Open, 2nd: Open, 3rd: Cavern/Cave), but can be made Bo1 Cave if one player does not want to play Bo3. This obviously is the most drastic rule/scheme adjustment, as intermediate has always been Bo3, but it would keep with the fact that all classic/allround schemes have always been Bo1.
Let me know what you guys think about these, I think there is some room for tweaking.
To sum it up:
Tiebreak in big rr (Yes/No)
If yes, #1, #2, or #3 tiebreak
Banana in big rr (Yes/No)
Bo1 in intermediate if one player doesn't agree for a Bo3 (Yes/No)
If no, Bo1 if both players agree (Yes/No)
-
Big RR ties should be decided by both starting from same position at end, you can be lucky by 1 or 2 turns where your last 1 second gives you a fling that gets you some extra distance along the way.
-
Big RR ties should be decided by both starting from same position at end, you can be lucky by 1 or 2 turns where your last 1 second gives you a fling that gets you some extra distance along the way.
So you favor a complete restart? Both players place at finish and race back at the beginning of next turn?
I'll add it as an option.
-
There's something that popped up in my head
2. A tie is broken by touching finish and roping back for the remainder of turn, worm that makes it the farthest is the victor.
In certain maps in order to reach the finish you have to fall an extreme height, often without a way to get back.
-
"Bo1 in intermediate if one player doesn't agree for a Bo3"
Bo1 open means too much luck and cave maps arent nearly as funny to play on. I think most people would be likely to veto a bo3, and then it's either luck or a tedious cave game. So I say NO since im an interphile
Bo1 if both parts agree is obv fine. Playing on cave or open should be their own decision too imo.
-
Banana is really unnecessary on Big RR. Indeed it should be swapped with 40 sec no nana.
1st solution for Big RR seems better to me. It also won't have problems like WTF-8 mentioned for other solutions.
-
There's something that popped up in my head
2. A tie is broken by touching finish and roping back for the remainder of turn, worm that makes it the farthest is the victor.
In certain maps in order to reach the finish you have to fall an extreme height, often without a way to get back.
Yeah, this pretty much kills #2 and #3, these sort of maps would be impossible to rope back
-
"A tie is broken by touching finish and roping back for the remainder of turn, worm that makes it the farthest is the victor."
that rule works well with most bigrr maps i have played
-
That option isn't the best.
If you are literally 1 second ahead near the end of the map and that gives you access to a throw that puts you 5 or more seconds ahead it can give you an unfair advantage.
Now, you might argue that it's the players fault for being 1 second behind but while you can't argue that remember this is an endurance scheme which is why you have the whole finish on same turn means a draw in the first place.
F**k losing a game because someone got a lucky ending which gave them a huge lead based on those options.
If roping back is a problem then add a teleport or just start another round and do 1 turn equally so both players can go all out for 1 turn, this way is more fun, fairer and more dramatic.
-
yeah I get what u mean... and if we start to make rules that make map knowledge a even huger thing in bigrr... there would be more map whoring... but this could be fixed with random map picker xD
so if we had a random map picker... then it wouldn't mind if someone knew a gimmicky throw in a map, and used it as advantage after touching finish and heading back... because everyone has the same possibilities to check out different big rr maps and what kind of finish they have
-
"3. A tie is broken by both worms starting their next turn after finishing at end, and roping back towards start, whichever worm goes farther is the winner."
This option causes least mess cos you don't need to know the rule. It's like the current rule but you play just one additional turn instead of a whole new map.. This rule was used in a WO tourney and I think it worked fine.
From 30s and 40s I'd pick the one that gives smaller chance for a draw (if there's any difference, I'm not sure). The more turns, the bigger chance that you don't finish on the same turn?? More turn time requires more consistency though (you need to focus for 40s).
Since open intermediate (not cavern/cave) relies quite a bit on first turn advantage, it would be unsuitable for Bo1, but I think a Bo1 on a cave map would be just fine. There is still first turn advantage, but it isn't any more beneficial than first turn in say, elite.
Oh, 1 more thing I see people discussing: first turn factor.
So here the numbers:
Average of 10% more chances of winning a round were you start. Non significative difference between islands and caves (I was surprised about this, was sure the effect would be significatively bigger on islands). 95% confidence intervall: 7%-13%
Sample used: top half ONL overall ranking players, that's 14 players with at least 200 rounds played each-
It's up to you to decide whether that is big or small advantage.
Edit: there was also a positive correlation (r=0,68; p=0,01) between the advantage a player gets from first turn in caves and the advantage the same player gets from first turn in islands; indicating "how much advantage you can get from first turn" as an ability that varies from player to player.
I'd say if someone requests Bo1, he should go 2nd.
-
"3. A tie is broken by both worms starting their next turn after finishing at end, and roping back towards start, whichever worm goes farther is the winner."
This option causes least mess cos you don't need to know the rule. It's like the current rule but you play just one additional turn instead of a whole new map.. This rule was used in a WO tourney and I think it worked fine.
From 30s and 40s I'd pick the one that gives smaller chance for a draw (if there's any difference, I'm not sure). The more turns, the bigger chance that you don't finish on the same turn?? More turn time requires more consistency though (you need to focus for 40s).
Since open intermediate (not cavern/cave) relies quite a bit on first turn advantage, it would be unsuitable for Bo1, but I think a Bo1 on a cave map would be just fine. There is still first turn advantage, but it isn't any more beneficial than first turn in say, elite.
Oh, 1 more thing I see people discussing: first turn factor.
So here the numbers:
Average of 10% more chances of winning a round were you start. Non significative difference between islands and caves (I was surprised about this, was sure the effect would be significatively bigger on islands). 95% confidence intervall: 7%-13%
Sample used: top half ONL overall ranking players, that's 14 players with at least 200 rounds played each-
It's up to you to decide whether that is big or small advantage.
Edit: there was also a positive correlation (r=0,68; p=0,01) between the advantage a player gets from first turn in caves and the advantage the same player gets from first turn in islands; indicating "how much advantage you can get from first turn" as an ability that varies from player to player.
I'd say if someone requests Bo1, he should go 2nd.
I think that is a good method, you can force a Bo1 if you want, but you must go second in that case. Seems like something that would make the non-inter lovers happy.
-
I'd say if someone requests Bo1, he should go 2nd.
Sounds fair.
I actually quite like the banana in big rr, but I think it should be limited to 1 or 2, so you have to pick when to use it (like if you have a really good flow going, or on a section of the map where you know you can gain some seconds by continuing on a bit and then flinging yourself).
I prefer using turn time remaining as a tie-breaker too, as WTF-8 said, roping back doesn't work on some maps.
-
I'll be happy to play Intermediate in 2v2, cuz Teamwork makes the game much more fun for me, but stops me from wanting to play Singles tbh.
I don't even get why Intermediate was added instead of other schemes, why Intermediate and not something more unique?
It's just so similar to Elite there is no need to have both Elite and Intermediate, why don't we add Forts & Aerial also? To support BnG and Hysteria? Also Abnormal...
Abnormal should have been added instead of Intermediate, it's much more unique and also ridiculously skilled/balanced.
Intermediate was special in NNN events etc.
I just don't get it, I know people like it but sucks having these choices made by a few people, for the many people.
-
Abnormal...
Abnormal should have been added instead of Intermediate, it's much more unique and also ridiculously skilled/balanced.
what makes you think its more skilled, balanced, unique to kill your own worms which are unprotected, than killing your opponents worms which he can hide?
its a fun scheme, but each game kinda has the same moves: accumulating a huge kamikaze kill on top, using several wormselects; then finishing it with some combo stuff near the ground.
each intermdiate game has several interactions between you and the opponent, which makes it a lot more skilled and unique.
afaik abnormal was nothing but a warm up session from dario, until my beloved roh clan (shoutout to the 10 th anniversary) popularized it.
-
It's more unique to the schemes already existing.
It's still ridiculously skilled/balanced, without comparing it to anything.
Those are facts.
Intermediate and Elite are just too similar, just have 1 or the other, I don't care which, just get rid of one, they are both great schemes.
-
Komo we're trying to discuss rule changes for Inter / Big RR, not what schemes should be in allround league. If you want to start another pointless argument about schemes then go make a new thread. MI is not going to change the schemes now anyway.
-
Komo we're trying to discuss rule changes for Inter / Big RR, not what schemes should be in allround league. If you want to start another pointless argument about schemes then go make a new thread. MI is not going to change the schemes now anyway.
why don`t you start by determining if tower race is included, since the report and scheme option says so. it is indeed a question what schemes should be in allround league, since some suggested rules do not work with tower being involved. furthermore its not your job to do those kind of things, its job of the staff to make sure things are well thought out before they implement it.
you are not important to an unimportant league best resembled as a trash can, you never will be important to same said league, so why don`t you take your f@#!ed up sense of democratic involvement and flush it down the toilet?
well played smart arse
-
I don't mean to offend spleen, but I'm legit as far as the topic title is concerned.
-
I don't mean to offend spleen, but I'm legit as far as the topic title is concerned.
Did you even read the first post? Walrus offered some suggestions to change Inter / Big RR rules and asked for opinions, then you started going off on one about Abnormal and how Inter shouldn't be in league, which is a completely different topic.
-
Removing Intermediate and adding Abnormal would be a change for a new scheme into allround league.
But, I get what you are saying and I already mentioned Big RR options.
-
Are we discussing free league? If yes, then I need to tell ya something.....
If you wanna see me as an interested active player, then add BUNGEE SHOPPER in TFL!
-
Komo we're trying to discuss rule changes for Inter / Big RR, not what schemes should be in allround league. If you want to start another pointless argument about schemes then go make a new thread. MI is not going to change the schemes now anyway.
you are not important to an unimportant league best resembled as a trash can, you never will be important to same said league, so why don`t you take your f@#!ed up sense of democratic involvement and flush it down the toilet?
this is how i pictured this discussion
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KXBkJC-Zscg/hqdefault.jpg)
-
I'm actually jealous of walrus, he loves all schemes, he should be like the ambassador of WA...
I don't give a f**k if it looks like i'm sucking up, he's got incredible passion, he genuinely loves all schemes and he is becoming a legend to this game, he's earning his.
But still, sorry for being a pain in the ass guys, it's just how I feel :(
-
+1 on the inter bo1-demander goes second, good solution
-
Intermediate and Elite are just too similar, just have 1 or the other, I don't care which, just get rid of one, they are both great schemes.
Should we also get rid of roper/wxw and bng/hysteria cos they are too similar? And big rr cos it's similar to wxw/ttrr? xd
edit: I get that u are disappointed cos there's less bng oriented schemes than rope schemes or tactical ground schemes. It was already unbalanced before these additions, though, and I don't see u complaining about big rr although 4 of 10 schemes are now pure rope schemes. Roping was represented the most before the change and it still is. The fact that u don't personally like (1vs1) intermediate shows in your comments..
-
Intermediate and Elite are just too similar
WHAT
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/791148440453545984/AEiGINK-.jpg)
-
Lol Senator I actually like Elite more than BnG.
But it's np for you to keep making assumptions I'm not bothered by them :)
And I complained about shopper...
-
now can we get komo out of the thread so we can have a meaningful discussion for once
-
WTF-8, do this:
Click on Profile -> Account Settings
Then move your mouse cursor over "Modify Profile", then move mouse over "Buddies/Ignore List..." then click "Edit Ignore List".
Type "TheKomodo" into the "Add To Ignore List" box, and click "Add".
Now you don't have to read any my posts again and I don't have to read your whining.
@Senator, I do like Intermediate whether it's 1v1 or 2v2, i've grown to enjoy most schemes now, I just think it should be 1 or the other, i'm not a bad person for having an opinion.
At the same time, i'm happy for things that make the community more active, and most people like this change, i'll get used to it eventually I guess, but i'll always think it's wrong.
-
I'm actually jealous of walrus, he loves all schemes, he should be like the ambassador of WA...
I don't give a f**k if it looks like i'm sucking up, he's got incredible passion, he genuinely loves all schemes and he is becoming a legend to this game, he's earning his.
But still, sorry for being a pain in the ass guys, it's just how I feel :(
awwww komo <3
i guess its true except for mole shopper
-
bumping this thread, big rr still needs rule changes, senator and i tied twice in big rr and nearly 3 times in just to get 2 decisions
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-220428/
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-220429/