The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: Free on March 05, 2013, 05:45 PM
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"Host cups less talk", what has hosting cups changed in Classic really other than amount of girder in T17, and there was no need for cup for that change, as far as I rememeber.
how else r u going to get people to try ur new scheme then?
u host a cup with ur new scheme idea, ppl like it. maybe 1 season in trl, ppl like it some more. maybe enough players like it enough for it to make changes for bng in classic
If your talking about introducing a whole new scheme to Classic, then yeah cups and trl is a working solution, but when talking about improving +10 year old classic schemes, we really don't need to host cup after cup with different rule tweaking to know how the scheme affects luck/skill balance. My solution is to have a council that consists of very experienced players who are also "smart thinkers" and they simply force a rule. Way more effective and saves time. Whatever rule is forced, there is going to be opposition anyways so let a council make the decisions imo. No need for cups (when it comes to simple rules discussions or scheme tweaks) and we could actually see changes happen wayyyy more effectively.
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Gotta say that was the best post on these forums I've read in a while.
An uneven number of council members would be mandatory for obvious reasons.
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I am not just saying this just to disagree with you guys, but I think it's a horrible idea, maybe you could elaborate more, give some suggestions of who or something, but I doubt it.
1st off, it's completely unfair, you couldn't pick people we would all agree on and to be honest, I wouldn't like the decision of these things to be in the hands of the geeky secret society of WA...
Mainly though, I don't think anyone should have the power to just "force a rule", regarding Leagues and how people actually play the game without discussing it with the community, obvious MI can make whatever rules he wishes regarding the website/forums though... And the MODs for complaints etc...
We don't even need a council but, what the f**k, the world isn't ending, your hair isn't on fire, we should all just shut up, sit down, play, talk, whatever and enjoy this FREE website/League which is running just fine :)
MI D1 and franz, that is all we ever needed, these guys(unless franz comes back and tells us he really is a girl or something...) are all very fair, very intelligent, and very experienced with WA.
You gave me a good idea though Free, I think we should have a few more players who can authorize Tournaments...
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I agree with Free. A couple of experts being able to force new rules/tweaks to schemes seems a good idea to me. That will make the league more dynamic and changes will be far easier to implement.
It does raise a lot of issues though, like komo says. Selection of these 'experts' (Free is a worms expert I guess, but is he one in hysteria? I'm not so sure) and the whole decisionmaking process (don't think even those experts will be able to agree on 'controversial' issues). I'm also worried decisions this way will be taken too hastily. I really believe you need at least one cup to make sure there's really no loopholes in the schemes. W2roper for example had many supporters on the forum, but after a bunch of games it was apparent that the scheme was bugged in many areas. You do need at least some feedback.
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Pretty much like every up to date government works, there should be elections and all that. A council of 5 or 7 people seems big enough to me. I actually talked about something like this with Anubis the other day and we both thought it was a good idea but none of us bothered posting it because the way things are, it's just gonna get bashed like every other change bringing suggestion.
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I have no problem with making a team of experts. That sounds good. +1 HHC
It does raise a lot of issues though, like komo says. Selection of these 'experts' (Free is a worms expert I guess, but is he one in hysteria? I'm not so sure) and the whole decisionmaking process (don't think even those experts will be able to agree on 'controversial' issues). I'm also worried decisions this way will be taken too hastily.
The minimum thing a team of experts could do is to modify schemes in their own field.
How about members vote for their expert for the team? and once the team is created the rest will be up to them.
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hoho someone stole my idea :D
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/tus-discussion/international-board-worms-10506/
btw it's really a nice thing to have a team expert. In every democracry we need leaders, we need wise people to point the light wherever it is.
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So you are giving these "experts" the power to change schemes as they think it should be? Surely this is too much?
They would have to be limited to what they can change, surely they must inform the community, give out warning, there should still be some sort of vote on changes or something... Talking about votes, won't the community even be able to vote on making a "team of experts" in the 1st place?
Some people don't even read forums on TuS, they just come and go, if changes are made to a scheme they are used to and they don't know about it, because they don't check the site or something, how will we handle that?
I really cannot trust, a few people, or an "expert", to be free to make what changes they view as fit at will without being strongly backed up by the majority of the community.
Please don't do this?
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They could announce changes on a pinned board, like TUS announcements, so everyone who plays TUS, would be informed.
(are you obsessed with question marks? :))
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Well, Im agree with Komo.
Im 100% sure experts will be old school wormers, so its obvious they will implent ideas to the league that worked 10 years ago, and removing hysteria would be one of those ideas. goddamnit even if hysteria will ever get removed from classic (or any other solid change happen) Id like to have this done with asking what others think at first.
I wonder why we cant just make a small box where everyone can write his own idea, so others can vote if they agree or not on some kind of voting page, with all ideas people got in mind
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Wow,
this really looks like Berlusconi and Italy, it's funny!:
You don't want to change Hysteria?
Let make me Super President and I'll have the all power to do this!
To be balance, not only a punch of old schoolers is enough. Here there are many noobs and new schoolers. This would be an "Un-evolution"
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Lets host a cup to decide who will be in the expert team.
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should the cup be no rules bng?
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husk, b2b cant be experts because of their religion xD
being expert is not allowed on a2b even
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Dont think all experts are in favour of kicking hyst out. It's just a small portion of old schoolers.
And IMO MI should get a veto then. To block measures that really harm the league or players 'without a voice' (newbs).
And well, any important decisions could still be put up for vote, or at least for public advice.
Particularly in the field of small scheme-fixes such a council could be nice. As well as in uncovering 'exploits' in current schemes and finding ways to counter these.
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The first thing I would fix is Roper since going first in 1v1 is default victory, you can hide on top from the beginning.
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i like this idea, since all good ideas in the past about shemes wasnt even checked by most of interesed this looks for better idea.
we dont need to remove anything, but for sure bng, roper need to be fixed !
i would fix even wxw....... look for desetroyah sheme of wxw - this would be perfect for competentive wxw game !
https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-776/ (https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-776/)
!!!!
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do you guys know every rule on bng can be avoided? re-aiming? I have to re-aim angle even without this rule to count notches from 0 haha. even girders. You can put girder only as bank, this way you can tele on saveful hide, and build a good hide saying you are working on bank, after you make your hide perfect you can tele on it lol.
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I like the idead, thumbs up. :)
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The first thing I would fix is Roper since going first in 1v1 is default victory, you can hide on top from the beginning.
yet it doesn't happen
or can u show us an example of such match?
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Lol Random, you can just edit your post if you mistyped something :D
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just a small portion of old schoolers
I'm kinda losing faith in this community. It's us who kept the game alive for so long, it's us who have the most experience in leagues and competitive worms. Of course our opinions should be regarded higher than those of some guys who have been playing for 1 or 2 years and achieved mediocre league results.
But yeah it's just a small portion of old schoolers, might as well ignore them. I hate the way "democracy" is executed on TUS, we keep talking about this stuff because it's important to us, page after page, and the only thing that ever happens is Komo spamming the topic with his f@#!ing opinion and people saying "host a cup". If MI can't make decisions on his own (with more than enough input by many people) then that's fine, let someone else do it. But do something.
In times like these I just wish MI was a little bit more like Kiros. Yeah that's right, I'd rather be banned from this league than be ignored.
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I guess we have a divide then, because it's the desires of what you want that will make me stop participating in the League here whatsoever.
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Problem I see with a lot of oldschoolers that posted is that they are very busy stating their own opinion and then not reading what anyone else has to say. Again: ignoring means not reading or responding to what you have to say in any way - this did not happen. You can disapprove all you want about how things are handled, but stop saying TUS ignores you - if anything, I've seen a lot of people ignore whatever was said by pro hysteria players.
To say "it's us who kept the game alive for so long" is perhaps also a bit shortsighted. One person's newbie is another person's oldschooler. Unless you want to single out people who have played WA since it was released. That still doesn't necessarily make their opinion better than others. That's argument from authority, which is a useless argument. I'm relatively new to the field of radiology, but if I disagree with one of the radiologists about a scan, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong. It's the reasoning behind an argument that counts. Doesn't matter if franz says it or (I can't believe I'm saying this) if taner says it.
People who have played this game a long time can still have dumb and unreasoned opinions (though I'm certainly not saying this is the case for all of them ;)) and people who have played this game only for a short time can still have wonderful ideas and strong arguments.
The reason I keep proposing cups/tournaments is because I'm not arrogant enough to say 'This is my opinion and therefore, this must happen'. Consider cups/tournaments as a way to get a lot of games played with a change in settings. Because if there's one thing constant in WA over the years it's people exploiting schemes' weaknesses to the max. You make a change to the league scheme, a new problem arises and you have to change it again. Better to do it right than to do it wrong and have a lot "wrong scheme" complaints.
So how would you decide on these players who will decide what happens?
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I would be an unholy nightmare if I got my say in this. I would cancel every scheme except for bng and roper. I'd nuke tus back to the w2 days ;D
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I can see the good thought behind this idea... I'm a bit sceptical on the reasons this council is based upon though. Who are to judge who's an "expert"? If you're oldschool, you're automatically an expert? It shouldn't work that way. You don't have to gain power in TUS to have your opinion being heard, even if it might feel like it at times.
The way Elite was changed during FB, without the majority of the community supporting the change, is also something I'm concerned of. That we will have changes that is not supported by the majority of the community, (as Free puts it, they are being forced on ) and valuable members of the community leaving as a result of the change. Dark, I don't understand some of your arguments. They seem to be so ignorant that I was about to fall of my chair when reading them. You must have got a lot of frustration that needs to be lifted off from your chest.
There are many pros and cons that needs to be discussed and thought over in this case. I'm a bit surprised to see such an influent member like Random put his thumbs up so quickly without reasoning his support of the idea
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The first thing I would fix is Roper since going first in 1v1 is default victory, you can hide on top from the beginning.
yet it doesn't happen
or can u show us an example of such match?
Because people are too nice I guess (or lack of knowledge), I told Bonhert about this some time ago, he said he wanted to test it and one day he msged me that it worked, dunno which game# though. Maybe he reads this to show us the replay.
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I'm kinda losing faith in this community. It's us who kept the game alive for so long, it's us who have the most experience in leagues and competitive worms. Of course our opinions should be regarded higher than those of some guys who have been playing for 1 or 2 years and achieved mediocre league results.
Yes.
But yeah it's just a small portion of old schoolers, might as well ignore them. I hate the way "democracy" is executed on TUS, we keep talking about this stuff because it's important to us, page after page, and the only thing that ever happens is Komo spamming the topic with his f@#!ing opinion and people saying "host a cup". If MI can't make decisions on his own (with more than enough input by many people) then that's fine, let someone else do it. But do something.
MI has to look after the interests of the whole community, of the league as a whole. I'm sure you can understand that if the vast majority of players want to keep hysteria in there's little incentive for him to throw it out and risk losing these players.
Furthermore, it's not like ALL the oldschoolers agree on the matter. Some want hyst completely abolished, some want it demoted to free, others want to keep it at all cost and then there's a group that want it to be 'fixed' but kept, as well as a group that wants to switch to a 3 sec scheme, etcetera, etcetera.
You have little reason to feel ignored. Just because MI doesn't opt for your personal preference doesn't mean he isn't open to any criticism/new ideas/changes. It just means he thinks it's more wise to choose a different path.
If you had your say in the matter, the opinion of over 80% of TUS players would be ignored.
And no, those 80% aren't just noobs who know no better and need old school guidance. I can tell Komo is strongly against abolishment, so is the TUS staff and so am I. We're all oldschool as well, and with just as much expertise as you and Free and other 'opponents'.
You can post page after page pressing for changes, but if you can't convince people the road ends there.
edit: Dark, by 'small portion of old schoolers' I meant that not all old schoolers are behind your ideas. It's not right to claim to speak on behalf of 'old schoolers' when you really mean you, Free, Anubis and 1 or 2 guys from CF. :-[ It gives people the impression that ALL old schoolers wanna get rid of hyst and that the formation of a council of experts, if it were a council of old schoolers, would immediately kick it out if it came into existence.
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Lets host a cup to decide who will be in the expert team.
rofl
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Here a replay about the 1v1 situation in Roper. Additional info in the chatbox at the end.
Btw I meant buffer, not puffer. XD
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Since its double post failure I can just give my 2 cents about the Edit from HHC:
I actually believe that Hyst needs to make "sense", right now it is the only scheme where turn advantage is the best way to win a game. In other schemes such as Roper, elite, t17 etc. Turn advantage is good, but it isn't encouraged to kill your own worms in most cases (I remember very few Matches that even with turn disadvantage you would kill your own worms, exceptions to the rule etc.) but in Hyst its pretty common to kill a worm further in the line of your team to counter the turn advantage. Even connecting your worms like you would do in other schemes mentioned above is often no solution to it. After my short investigation in Hyst I figured that dealing damage to the whole opponent team without killing them is probably the best way to approach winning in Hyst. In my opinion, turn advantage is dominating this scheme too strong. So all in all I think Hyst utilizes a good amount of skill, but it definitely needs to get rid of such a strong turn advantage that people are encouraged too strong to kill themselves.
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You should have to pass an IQ test or something... something that tests your critical thinking skills. Just because you're one of the best at a scheme doesn't mean you can think critically about issues. The council needs to be filled with objectivity, not subjectivity, or else there's no point in doing this.
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IQ... That's genious!
Imagine everyone have to pass timelimited test, so we will know who is really smart and who aren't on tus ;D
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You should have to pass an IQ test or something... something that tests your critical thinking skills. Just because you're one of the best at a scheme doesn't mean you can think critically about issues.
Let's just bring Julius Caesar, Saddam Hussain, Genghis Khan, Attila the Hun, Ivan the Terrible, all back to life, and let them control our community???
Jesus christ, WE DON'T F**KING NEED THIS, IT'S A F**KING GAME, GROW UP F**K SAKE !!!!!!! Sorry for language but what the f**k is wrong with this community?!? You all need to get your asses on Jeremy Kyle cuz you have f**king issues...
The League is fine, we have 2 tactical thinking schemes, 2 consistency and accuracy schemes, and 4 balanced rope schemes, we have a Leader (MI) who runs things better than anyone has ever done, WHY THE HELL DO YOU WANT TO RUIN THAT?!?!?!? WELL?!?!?
If you are power hungry or wanna be a tie wearing useless political twat, get the hell away from this website and do something else with your life...
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I'd like to nominate KRD and myself for the council.
Here in Slovenia, we've been changing governments, parliaments, comitees and whatnot like underwear lately - and nothing ever changes (at least not to better).
We'd be good at mantaining status quo. :P
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Boxers or briefs, Rok?
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Komo, shut the f@#! up for once.. Your one of the main reasons nothing ever f@#!ing changes around here, if you feel strongly about a topic or not, your always here ranting like a lunatic to oppose any New ideas..
You have made so many empty threats to leave tus, i wish you would, and i can't speak for the entire community, but i don't think we need to vote, play cups, or form council of experts to know the majority of tus will agree with that.
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You must have got a lot of frustration that needs to be lifted off from your chest.
You can tell? It's because thread after thread (after thread..) about Hysteria popped up over the years (emphasis on the word years) and look where we are now, the scheme wasn't touched at all, not a single time. Call me ignorant all you want but this is a fact and can't be denied. Feels very much like talking to a wall, wouldn't you agree?
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Your one of the main reasons nothing ever f@#!ing changes around here,
It would be nice to think that, but nope :D
I am opposing this idea because it's retarded avi, jus like you.
And i'll decide what I say and don't say thanks, not you.
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Good to have this discussion but guess what, it will only cause flame, feeding Komo the forum troll and most probably ending up changing nothing.
Having the idea of "let the whole community have a vote" sounds good in paper, but doesn't really work in our community, which has more and more newer players coming and old ones leaving.
Like you can't vote until your over certain age, because of lack of experience, same thing applies here. Someone needs find their 2 hanging nuts, grab them and start making some decisions IF the emphasis is on catering more of us competitive players, which it seems to be not. Let's be real here, nothing has changed except girders in T17 and Hysteria (premature ejaculation anyone?). Example of Roper that Anubis brought up is a good one, we start blaming the player for being "lame" if he starts hiding on top from the start, when the scheme enables it as a good tactic and from competitive point of view, it would be simply stupid to not utilize the most effective gameplay. If we would play with money on stake, you can bet your ass hiding on top would be the only hide for the player who starts. Who would pick Hysteria with money on stake (if he has stronger more skill-based scheme to pick from), because let's be real here, you only have 1 second to execute your move which leaves a lot to be desired from "skill point of view" EVEN if you are really experienced in the scheme. Just as I wouldn't pick Team17 with money on stake because when 2 equal T17 minds face-off, it has too much emphasis on cr8s, same with Shopper on relatively easy map where hiding tactics are out of the equation, etc... Schemes are over 10 years old, if you really think they don't need any polishing then god damn the original scheme creators have been Wormy Einsteins to say the least.
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How can I be a troll when I am the one defending? Man you are so stupid...
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Take a break Komo *pls
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guys, don't mind Komo... he's helping people see why we so desperately need this council
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You are all a bunch of muppets, pure and simple.
If you're dumbass idea actually follows through, I wanna be the 1st to say you have destroyed TuS.
If it happens you will see I am right, I don't care anyway, half you guys don't even f**king play lol...
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You can tell? It's because thread after thread (after thread..) about Hysteria popped up over the years (emphasis on the word years) and look where we are now, the scheme wasn't touched at all, not a single time.
Because thread after thread (after thread..) we get flamefests almost immediately and we never got further than "REMOVE HYSTERIA WTF".
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You can tell? It's because thread after thread (after thread..) about Hysteria popped up over the years (emphasis on the word years) and look where we are now, the scheme wasn't touched at all, not a single time.
Because thread after thread (after thread..) we get flamefests almost immediately and we never got further than "REMOVE HYSTERIA WTF".
Yeah, nobody ever said anything constructive about what's wrong with Hyst. ::)
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thats epic haha
You guys want team of experts so they can confirm the ideas. But nobody cant confirm idea about team of experts because we dont have a way to confirm anything now haha
its something like company that producing bricks. But to start working they need bricks to build factory and thats their problem xD
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Here a replay about the 1v1 situation in Roper. Additional info in the chatbox at the end.
Btw I meant buffer, not puffer. XD
nr there
but I think blue lost because of that failed hiding at the 4:20 turn
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Yeah, nobody ever said anything constructive about what's wrong with Hyst. ::)
See, this is what I mean with the trouble of oldschoolers who don't bother reading what anyone else has to say.
PS: saying what's wrong with something is by definition not constructive. You'll notice that when someone gives you constructive criticism, they will tell you what course of action would be better to follow.
PS2: "REMOVE HYSTERIA WTF" is not constructive either, because for a lot of people, that would ruin TUS.
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Here a replay about the 1v1 situation in Roper. Additional info in the chatbox at the end.
Btw I meant buffer, not puffer. XD
nr there
but I think blue lost because of that failed hiding at the 4:20 turn
But that's the whole problem, the probability for red to win is a lot higher since red can hide on top (more reachable cr8s) and blue must hope for hard cr8s for red or looses no matter what happens. It makes me feel pretty helpless as blue as my actions don't really matter (even with fd, no chance) since red will have easier cr8s and doesn't need to care about hiding at all.
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Yeah, nobody ever said anything constructive about what's wrong with Hyst. ::)
See, this is what I mean with the trouble of oldschoolers who don't bother reading what anyone else has to say.
PS: saying what's wrong with something is by definition not constructive. You'll notice that when someone gives you constructive criticism, they will tell you what course of action would be better to follow.
PS2: "REMOVE HYSTERIA WTF" is not constructive either, because for a lot of people, that would ruin TUS.
So what about my conclusion that Hyst favors turn advantage too much, isn't that constructive? Why do you guys always respond to off-topic personal stuff that has nothing to do with the topic? You kind of talk around the topic, that goes for a lot of people here.
PS: Why can't I delete my own posts? I think that used to be a possibility?
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Kai, it doesn't favour it if you can control the situation.
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After my short investigation in Hyst I figured that dealing damage to the whole opponent team without killing them is probably the best way to approach winning in Hyst.
same as in shopper, wxw, roper and in parts in elite xD
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So what about my conclusion that Hyst favors turn advantage too much, isn't that constructive?
Nope, it points out what's wrong, it doesn't give any solutions. Constructive criticisms provide solutions to problems.
Why do you guys always respond to off-topic personal stuff that has nothing to do with the topic? You kind of talk around the topic, that goes for a lot of people here.
I've been wondering the same (not about you btw).
As for on-topic stuff again: not sure how the council of experts would be chosen. Thing with these decisions is they're still opinion based and therefore rely on the council's taste in schemes. I can think of a lot of people with good, clear thinking minds who also happen to love bungeerace. We could get bungeerace in classic league! Not saying they would do that - it doesn't belong there, but choosing these people already pushes decisions towards opinions you already share.
Personally, I'm not a fan of selecting this small group of experts for this reason (and a couple of others), but out of curiosity, I'm wondering what you had in mind for the selection criteria.
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So what about my conclusion that Hyst favors turn advantage too much, isn't that constructive?
Nope, it points out what's wrong, it doesn't give any solutions. Constructive criticisms provide solutions to problems.
Why do you guys always respond to off-topic personal stuff that has nothing to do with the topic? You kind of talk around the topic, that goes for a lot of people here.
I've been wondering the same (not about you btw).
Well okay, guess I should have pointed out a solution, so what came to my mind is obvious 1 worm select to make piling a higher risk, seems like this is no possibility since most disagree with it, it's no option? Another thing could be to limit teleport to 8 (2 teleports for each worm basically), this way you have to decide whether you want to keep the teleports for a turn advantage situation or to get out of a risky situation/save it for late game. One of the things that are important when balancing is a proper risk/reward situation. We kind of did the same in Team17 when placing Girders non-stop was kind of abusive since all you would do is block, block, block. That was a good step in my opinion for T17. What I like most about Hyst is the jetpack, but it kind of falls short because of the endless teleporting ability, shifting the focus on using the jetpack to attack and moving around with it would clearly benefit this scheme. (too much bng, too less jetpack)
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i think a good step to take next is making a list of wormers to be in the council....
we should all give names (make sure they are well thought out) players we think will be interested in this roll, have good knowledge of most, if not all schemes, and are generally "smart" people...
if everyone gives a list of 7 wormers, the 7 worms that get most mentions can start making some progress, without komo being a thorn in every ones side, and talking about how great he is, how long he has stayed awake, and how much vodka he has drank
heres my list..
shyguy
free
barman
HHC
franz
crazy
darkone
ps: i tried to make my list balanced, and players that cover different schemes, and who i think may work well together in making decisions. i encourage others to try the same.
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Yeah, nobody ever said anything constructive about what's wrong with Hyst. ::)
See, this is what I mean with the trouble of oldschoolers who don't bother reading what anyone else has to say.
Exactly same thing applies to you.
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ok, guess our team of experts ends here... this community is hopeless
hysteria anyone?
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sure =) ag any1? I am in ag
I mean come ag xD for hystr!
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My list:
barman
DarkOne
Deadcode
franz
KRD
Mablak
..and of course: GreeN
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why Im not in list? GIVE ME IQ TEST IM THE BEST ASDASDASD
hahahahah
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my list:
impo
impo
impo
impo
impo
impo
impo
xD
on a serious matter, what do you expect avi? just throwing in names? either we do a serious election or not, but imo there are way 2 many genious people to cut it down to 7. i couldnt decide in any way.
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yes, i expect people to put don't some names of potential candidates peja, then we can narrow it Down..
This is exactly what dark one s talking about.. Everyone talks about change, but no1 wants to take another step at putting it into effect, then they want to complain nothing is changed.
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Here a replay about the 1v1 situation in Roper. Additional info in the chatbox at the end.
Btw I meant buffer, not puffer. XD
nr there
but I think blue lost because of that failed hiding at the 4:20 turn
But that's the whole problem, the probability for red to win is a lot higher since red can hide on top (more reachable cr8s) and blue must hope for hard cr8s for red or looses no matter what happens. It makes me feel pretty helpless as blue as my actions don't really matter (even with fd, no chance) since red will have easier cr8s and doesn't need to care about hiding at all.
I've suggested a thousand times to increase fd. Can you see why? Why would blue also not hide on top? Various maps can also help with this dilemma. I think blue lost because he was retarded.
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Here a replay about the 1v1 situation in Roper. Additional info in the chatbox at the end.
Btw I meant buffer, not puffer. XD
nr there
but I think blue lost because of that failed hiding at the 4:20 turn
But that's the whole problem, the probability for red to win is a lot higher since red can hide on top (more reachable cr8s) and blue must hope for hard cr8s for red or looses no matter what happens. It makes me feel pretty helpless as blue as my actions don't really matter (even with fd, no chance) since red will have easier cr8s and doesn't need to care about hiding at all.
I've suggested a thousand times to increase fd. Can you see why? Why would blue also not hide on top? Various maps can also help with this dilemma. I think blue lost because he was retarded.
So you suggest for the blue team to hide on top so red wins even easier? Red attacked every turn and only some harder cr8s/better hides by blue would have stopped the default win. Makes no sense for blue to hide on top because of the advantage red has from the beginning.
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roper is awesome scheme as a funner, but its really unbalanced as a league scheme. Honestly if not a bunch of old school players Id like to see it remove from classic
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Here a replay about the 1v1 situation in Roper. Additional info in the chatbox at the end.
Btw I meant buffer, not puffer. XD
nr there
but I think blue lost because of that failed hiding at the 4:20 turn
But that's the whole problem, the probability for red to win is a lot higher since red can hide on top (more reachable cr8s) and blue must hope for hard cr8s for red or looses no matter what happens. It makes me feel pretty helpless as blue as my actions don't really matter (even with fd, no chance) since red will have easier cr8s and doesn't need to care about hiding at all.
I've suggested a thousand times to increase fd. Can you see why? Why would blue also not hide on top? Various maps can also help with this dilemma. I think blue lost because he was retarded.
So you suggest for the blue team to hide on top so red wins even easier? Red attacked every turn and only some harder cr8s/better hides by blue would have stopped the default win. Makes no sense for blue to hide on top because of the advantage red has from the beginning.
I would rather draw, then let red team win (unless he does 37 + damage 1st turn and plays flawlessly). You are stating a problem that does not exist yet. When this problem exists, let people find a strategy against it. To discourage it, I would increase fd, so that more skill is involved then just getting the crate and placing a mine complacently on top of the worm . I would use 2 worms, perhaps 3 worms even. I would use a map where hiding on top would not be optimal because of fd. The main problem with all schemes is that they do not evolve and have changed very very little since the beginning. For roper in particular, the one who picks the scheme should be able to modify and play the scheme however they want (notifies opponent of changes before the game) . That is how things evolve. Not by having a ridiculous popularity contest.
roper is awesome scheme as a funner, but its really unbalanced as a league scheme. Honestly if not a bunch of old school players Id like to see it remove from classic
And . . . I'm done.
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Here a replay about the 1v1 situation in Roper. Additional info in the chatbox at the end.
Btw I meant buffer, not puffer. XD
nr there
but I think blue lost because of that failed hiding at the 4:20 turn
But that's the whole problem, the probability for red to win is a lot higher since red can hide on top (more reachable cr8s) and blue must hope for hard cr8s for red or looses no matter what happens. It makes me feel pretty helpless as blue as my actions don't really matter (even with fd, no chance) since red will have easier cr8s and doesn't need to care about hiding at all.
I've suggested a thousand times to increase fd. Can you see why? Why would blue also not hide on top? Various maps can also help with this dilemma. I think blue lost because he was retarded.
So you suggest for the blue team to hide on top so red wins even easier? Red attacked every turn and only some harder cr8s/better hides by blue would have stopped the default win. Makes no sense for blue to hide on top because of the advantage red has from the beginning.
I would rather draw, then let red team win (unless he does 37 + damage 1st turn and plays flawlessly). You are stating a problem that does not exist yet. When this problem exists, let people find a strategy against it. To discourage it, I would increase fd, so that more skill is involved then just getting the crate and placing a mine complacently on top of the worm . I would use 2 worms, perhaps 3 worms even. I would use a map where hiding on top would not be optimal because of fd. The main problem with all schemes is that they do not evolve and have changed very very little since the beginning. For roper in particular, the one who picks the scheme should be able to modify and play the scheme however they want (notifies opponent of changes before the game) . That is how things evolve. Not by having a ridiculous popularity contest.
I agree with what you say there, hiding on top should be discouraged, I was also thinking to increase Bazooka damage since hiding on Top usually involves having a poor hide.
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Well okay, guess I should have pointed out a solution, so what came to my mind is obvious 1 worm select to make piling a higher risk, seems like this is no possibility since most disagree with it, it's no option? Another thing could be to limit teleport to 8 (2 teleports for each worm basically), this way you have to decide whether you want to keep the teleports for a turn advantage situation or to get out of a risky situation/save it for late game. One of the things that are important when balancing is a proper risk/reward situation. We kind of did the same in Team17 when placing Girders non-stop was kind of abusive since all you would do is block, block, block. That was a good step in my opinion for T17. What I like most about Hyst is the jetpack, but it kind of falls short because of the endless teleporting ability, shifting the focus on using the jetpack to attack and moving around with it would clearly benefit this scheme. (too much bng, too less jetpack)
Interesting ideas :) +1 for you, my friend. Free, pay attention to what Anubis just did. This is how you solve problems.
I set up a hysteria experiment cup: https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/cup-553/ And threw in the alternative scheme ideas so anyone willing to test it out could have a go at it. I'll add these schemes in the bunch, though I'm not sure if people want to play bo5. We may have to give people the choice of scheme in that cup, so we can keep it bo3 (perhaps bo5 in the later KO rounds).
Obviously, it's going to take some getting used to changes like this, so I'll be hosting more of theses in the future. If there are a couple of variations that are not that much different from what we have now, I'll remove those from the list.
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A bit too late but what about also limiting the number of jetpack to avoid the situation where someone sui a worms and jetpack pile abuse all the others worms ?
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"This is how you solve problems"
Seriously, stop with the attitude, it's not the first time someone suggests a change in Hysteria, just take a look at all the threads made considering Hysteria over the years and open your eyes.
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The first thing I would fix is Roper since going first in 1v1 is default victory, you can hide on top from the beginning.
yet it doesn't happen
or can u show us an example of such match?
Because people are too nice I guess (or lack of knowledge), I told Bonhert about this some time ago, he said he wanted to test it and one day he msged me that it worked, dunno which game# though. Maybe he reads this to show us the replay.
Yea I've been doing this recently and I noticed it helps - if I start a game and happen to lose, I know its because I failed hard and not because cr8s hate me ;). However I'd rather say it rarely leads to an easy win. Accurate roping is needed.
I recall I've managed doing it here: https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-132044/
The map turned out to had been very easy so it was possible.
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@topic:
I also like the idea of team of experts. Would entertaining if each of the top 5 or 7 overall rating clans (existing ones) delegated one ambassador :P.
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Avi's list is nice ;D Although I would substitute one with a member of CF. Anubis or Komodo should also be there IMO, cause they know the game inside out.
But yeah, I really feel we should push this through. This thread proves it more than anything. A whole lot of things said about a whole variety of schemes and nothing gets done with it :-[
IMO we should set up a forum for these issues. One public one with a thread for each scheme where everyone can share their thoughts and input. And one private forum where the 'council' of 7 or 9 use the community input to call the shots and finally implement the changes that are needed.
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10 people are basicly just a joke when i think on the material we have.
so many names not even mentioned yet, what about MI, Random, Van, Dub, SPW, i could kinda continue endless.. why get the latino fraction completly ignored? what about people maybe not knowing the game inside out but who know how to organise things, for example like darkmaul or impz. there are so many useful opinions. why should a group of 10 people decide over all others. in this case i rather would like to see MI doing his stuff because its basicly succesful and he is really willing to listen to every idea.
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I don't like that list, I don't find most of people there qualified enough, so what do we do now? You guys are trying to play politics in the community that is literally driven by drama. The whole council idea is ridiculous and should be seen as such.
What are your plans, to go for democracy in the council? with 4 people fist forcing any rule as they wish? In avi's list you have 3 people who recently were clanmates and are likely to vote the same way - how's that f@#!ing fair for democracy. It obviously won't work, and all you'll do is piss off a bunch of people.
HHC, setting up a secret forum that hides the decision making process is even more ridiculous, if anything make it open, but allow only certain people to post in it.
That being said, I'm all up for changes proposed in another thread, I think the current schemes are outdated and could be easily improved. I'd just trial test them for a season one by one, without all this. The council idea must be the most moronic thing I've read on tus for years.
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okay here is my list
bb`quilz
P2H`vasiliy
RS`Florenzo
cRw`Juccy-Ju
RwA`Fl4ck
Insane9
General-Butthurt
srv`Vadikus
dt`Mablak
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This list of your aliases is not complete xD
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you want me to post full list just like thaat, hahah
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What are your plans, to go for democracy in the council? with 4 people fist forcing any rule as they wish? In avi's list you have 3 people who recently were clanmates and are likely to vote the same way - how's that f@#!ing fair for democracy. It obviously won't work, and all you'll do is piss off a bunch of people.
I don't think they will vote exactly the same.
If there would be voting at all. I guess the first step would be to discuss the matters and try to find a certain compromise that everyone in the council approves of. If only 4 people support it and 3 are really against it wouldn't be driven through as far as I see it.
All the people on avi's list (to take an example) are pretty open minded, except free maybe :D But the rest is pretty diplomatic. Pretty sure they can figure something out that pleases 'everyone'.
MI would have veto of course. It's his league, any measures that threaten the league's existence can be annulled that way.
HHC, setting up a secret forum that hides the decision making process is even more ridiculous, if anything make it open, but allow only certain people to post in it.
The whole community will start to interfere then and flame ppl if they don't like their opinion. As long as the council members are open to suggestions and discuss their opinions also in the public thread, I don't see any real problem with keeping the actual decisionmaking private.
That being said, I'm all up for changes proposed in another thread, I think the current schemes are outdated and could be easily improved. I'd just trial test them for a season one by one, without all this. The council idea must be the most moronic thing I've read on tus for years.
I don't think the community, in this form, can agree on an alternate scheme to test out. There's just thousands of opinions and everyone sticks to their own. What's MI supposed to do? Pick one forum post out at random that seems worth a try and force that? I don't see it happen.
The changes that have been made so far have been taken after discussion among the TUS staff... in private, not as a result of one of these countless scheme proposal threads.
And that's not because the TUS staff doesn't listen to people, it's because everyone shouts something else.
With 9 or even 11 or 13 experts who know where the schemes are lacking and who know how to reach compromises it will be SIXTY times easier to reach agreements on scheme fixes.
And with MI and the TUS staff looking after everyone's interest and hopefully council members that are not afraid to ask for advice from outside, it should really be an improvement to TUS.
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I don't think they will vote exactly the same.
If there would be voting at all. I guess the first step would be to discuss the matters and try to find a certain compromise that everyone in the council approves of. If only 4 people support it and 3 are really against it wouldn't be driven through as far as I see it.
All the people on avi's list (to take an example) are pretty open minded, except free maybe :D But the rest is pretty diplomatic. Pretty sure they can figure something out that pleases 'everyone'.
MI would have veto of course. It's his league, any measures that threaten the league's existence can be annulled that way.
That's how it would work in an utopian world, yes. The thing is, by selecting people from different backgrounds and with different opinions on the matter you'll never find a compromise that would satisfy all of them - because it would also mean that the decision would satisfy everyone in the community (well, maybe besides the most stubborn conservatives), and it will eventually come down to voting. Voting is bad. Why? Because just like Peja said, I'm interested to see what makes some people more qualified than the others and why are we omitting so many important members from even being considered? We'll never reach consensus at the very first step - of picking the right people. (Unless you make it clan dependent, which actually sounds like a less ridiculous idea because more people would be involved in the voting.)
For example, I wouldn't trust free to walk my dog after his posts, but that's just me being subjective, he might very well be the best man for the job in avi's eyes.
The whole community will start to interfere then and flame ppl if they don't like their opinion. As long as the council members are open to suggestions and discuss their opinions also in the public thread, I don't see any real problem with keeping the actual decisionmaking private.
That's why I said certain people, and by that I meant the council people and staff. Limiting the discussion for only council members to see would make the adjustment be questioned by the community from the very start, and what's even worse - the actual competence behind some of the decision makers would be hidden.
I don't think the community, in this form, can agree on an alternate scheme to test out. There's just thousands of opinions and everyone sticks to their own. What's MI supposed to do? Pick one forum post out at random that seems worth a try and force that? I don't see it happen.
The changes that have been made so far have been taken after discussion among the TUS staff... in private, not as a result of one of these countless scheme proposal threads.
And that's not because the TUS staff doesn't listen to people, it's because everyone shouts something else.
With 9 or even 11 or 13 experts who know where the schemes are lacking and who know how to reach compromises it will be SIXTY times easier to reach agreements on scheme fixes.
And with MI and the TUS staff looking after everyone's interest and hopefully council members that are not afraid to ask for advice from outside, it should really be an improvement to TUS.
I absolutely agree with you that the community is incapable of making any changes, that's how democracy work. There will always be people who aren't happy with the decisions. That's why I'm against setting up a council at all and just going full dictatorship on this one. I feel like a lot of people find MonkeyIsland to be incompetent as a league leader just looking at the sole idea of setting up a council and diminishing his role in the community. And honestly, that's where the problem is right now, MI's just being too safe and too conservative with his decisions.
I am perfectly aware how the decision making looked until now. Remember the 7 girder change in t17? People weren't happy at the beginning, but they eventually got used to it (and would never go back to inf) and that's how I see it should be done. Force the /ts in bng, force the change in hyst for a season, see how it plays out. We can talk theory for months, but without actions nothing will change.
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what about people maybe not knowing the game inside out but who know how to organise things
Well, you should know what you are organising.
MI & other TuS Staff, I really want to know, are you actually considering this? If you are actually considering this I would like to know as soon as possible because I don't want to continue to play Clanners for this League knowing the future is gonna change into something I don't like, if this happens, & if it's gonna change, to put it bluntly, i'd like to get this entire website out my life as soon as possible. If there is even a small chance this is going to happen, I can at least not participate in League games until a final decision has been made.
One idea I have confidence in is "Classic A/B"
Basically, we keep all the schemes as they are now, let's name these "Classic A" and put them into the "Classic A time period"
We also make an alternative for every Classic scheme, we shall name these "Classic B" and put them into the Classic B time period"
The time period will swap every 7 days (1 week) from A - B - A - B etc... I would suggest a head on the home page as to keep people informed what week it is just incase people forget.
We use all the scheme ideas from franz thread "Top scheme ideas" for the "Classic B".
This is just an example of what it would look like:
BnG / NrBnG
Hysteria / Randomsteria
Elite / 1337
Roper / Pro Roper
T17 / T17.5
WxW / W-W
TTRR / TTRR(5)
Shopper/Shoppa
We do it in such a way, that the schemes aren't TOO different from each other, this means I can enjoy what Free/darKz/ShyGuy etc have to offer as an alternative for Hysteria and other schemes, while still being able to play the version that I think is the best, and vice versa.
I see this as middle ground for everyone, you get what you want while giving the others what they want, personally speaking, this is the only type of option I would be open to.
If people cannot agree to something similar to this, we have no chance, it will just go to show that too many people have too many different opinions.
I would be happy to select a list of Council to create the "Classic B" schemes, and help maintain them, but they should have NO influence on "Classic A" whatsoever.
So what do you think?
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omg, another "im leaving tus" threat from komo...
please tus, i beg you... do whatever it takes to get this guy the f@#! out of here!! lets remove bng from classic if that helps!!
HHC, you really think he should be a part of any council made? lmfao this guy is the least mentally stable person on wnet.
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Komo, its the 100th time that your telling us your going to quit TUS, we get it already. Sheesh. You really think that any decision Mods are going to make has ANY consideration on the fact that "Komo is gonna quit TUS, if X happens" :D I can't even put in words how sad you look.
On-topic, there would be no need for council if TUS worked the same way every other WA league has worked so far, reason why I think council would be a good idea is because TUS works with voting principle (in theory it's a nice idea, doesn't work in this community) and by having a council, it makes the voting principle more "fair" and effective. In my opinion someone who has just started to play this game shouldn't have any power to switch the decisions one way or another, he simply lacks the experience and the overall picture of things.
Like said, you can't vote until certain age in real life (because you lack the experience), so what makes one think it's any different in these kind of situations? You could be playing for a week and your allowed to vote. What?
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LOL you guys really can't read, I never said I was gonna quit WA did I? Idiots...
See what I mean MI, you can't work with these fools,I propose a very very suitable idea, and all they care about is the question I asked you...
Anyway, what the hell does what I wanna do with my life bother you so much? You are the bunch of drama queens lol.
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who said anything about you quiting worms?
me and free both "quoted" you saying "im leaving tus"
and if there is anything dramatic going on here its statements like that... "im leaving tus is such and such happens" lol..
please do ;D
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I just know tus will lose me very soon if something is not done about hyst
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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LOL you guys really can't read, I never said I was gonna quit WA did I? Idiots...
See what I mean MI, you can't work with these fools,I propose a very very suitable idea, and all they care about is the question I asked you...
Anyway, what the hell does what I wanna do with my life bother you so much? You are the bunch of drama queens lol.
You just owned yourself, gj.
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Free lol, I replied to YOUR post, it was the only one I read cuz I was basically rolling a smoke before I left for the bus for work, and before you edited it said "quit WA" not TuS.
Nice try guys, it was amusing to see avi get overexcited though :D
Edit: Anyway, is either of your names MonkeyIsland? I thought not.
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Free lol, I replied to YOUR post, it was the only one I read cuz I was basically rolling a smoke before I left for the bus for work, and before you edited it said "quit WA" not TuS.
Nice try guys, it was amusing to see avi get overexcited though :D
Edit: Anyway, is either of your names MonkeyIsland? I thought not.
Maybe you should smoke a little less, now with the addition of being the drama queen, ur starting to make consipracy theories, I only edited "to" word with "for" if that rocks your boat. Nice try though. ;)
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I wasn't talking about weed lol, I must be seeing things then, I apologise for that, sorry I was tripping.
Still, I asked that question this time for a very good reason, if he is even THINKING about making this change, I do not want to participate in TuS anymore, this means I wouldn't be able to play clanners with Anubis and barman anymore, and I wouldn't be able to contact dS members easily etc, this is why it's important I get an answer, tbh, it has nothing to do with you, I should have PM'd him it, but it's too late now I guess.
Like, if this were to happen, I am sure MI would lose more players than just me, maybe not alot, but it still sucks right? I think it's important to let him know if ANYONE was gonna stop playing, maybe it would help him to wait and see if a better idea comes up, or if something can happen that makes everyone happy, I really don't know why you guys are being such dicks about it.
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Oh so is this the part we start acting like kids if something doesn't go our way?
Do you act like this in real life also? Something doesn't go your way and you start acting like a 5 year old? Trust me, there are also people who don't play Singles atm because of the way things are, try to understand that you can't please everybody and you need to observe both sides of the coin instead being a selfish kid.
Like why the f@#! would you quit TUS completely if something doesn't rock your boat? Because everything wouldn't be perfect in your Komito land? Gimme a break, nothing stops you from playing clanners if something happens in singles that you don't like, the real problems are in your mindset.
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so is TUS like FoW yet or do you still need some of my dogma?
Knowing the game inside out should be a need but not decisive. There's a bunch of stupid great football players. As well as people who are very good at this game but cannot construct a coherent argument beyond defending their own interests and winning possibilities.
I respect you Free, for all of this plus the streaming efforts, but I think you'll eventually burn out. People don't want to make the game more competitive, they just want to increase or maintain their own winning ratios. How is a list of experts consisting of Komo "do not change the schemes I'm good at" and HHC "please make schemes easier so I can win" work together to make the schemes and the league as competitive and competitively-fair as possible?
my "knew it" phrase turned out into a post hehe, it's like the echo of old posts, a dejavu of sorts, only for me of course.
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Free, you are boring me.
Ropa, why are you saying that about me when it isn't how I feel and if you read a post where I proposed an idea "Classic A/B" you might realise this.
I am good at all schemes.
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Yeah it became pretty clear to me that TUS/Majority of community ain't interested in making this game more competitive, I can live with that.
Komo, nice defense mechanism. :D Exactly how a kid would react, just close his ears and starts screaming "you're a homo" without wanting do a little bit of self-observing.
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*YAWN*
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I just know tus will lose me very soon if something is not done about hyst
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
peja, dont take a quote from me from a completely different thread, and post it completely out of context please...
heres the original post
I have been meaning to post this exact same idea...
I'm sick of people picking hyst.. Its almost all anyone picks vs me.. its going to drive me away from tus singles very quickly, hyst is responsible for 80% of my losses..
Chakk, you make a great point, and if you think about it, its in favor of this new rule.. As you said, this is an overallleague.. So if anyone bans a scheme from me, i have 4 or 5 others im happy to pick.
Here's the thing chakk, if your a guy who enjoys all schemes you do not have to eliminate one, if you and i play, and i eliminate hyst, your not forced to cancel one out.. You just say all else is fine, and pick your scheme...
So, in some cases there will be 7 schemes to choose from, some cases 6... But what's the problem? Only 5 are played in playoffs, remember?
This really would be a great rule...you may even see more activity by it.. From news that refuse to play tus because they don't want to rr, or from old schools who can't stand hyst..
I think this rule can bring plenty of Good, i don't see anything bad..
I just know tus will lose me very soon if something is not done about hyst
i was clearly talking about leaving tus singles, and not TUS all together, i did not go on a rant that i will not play any more clanners, i will not delete tus site out of my life, and any other stupid threat komo made...
also peja, it was not an empty threat, i have not played a tus single since then, because im sick of people just picking hyst vs. me.... its a newb scheme, that does not belong in classic, it was not invented to be a competitive scheme, even the maker of the scheme finds it funny it made its way into competition.
but anyway, i helf up my end up my "threat"... i no longer player tus singles, now komo should do the same, and leave www.tus-wa.com
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hauhahahaha you both are so similar its epic. just throwing in a meaningless one liner as a joke ad you receive a novel back ;)
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sure peja, you chopped up a quote for your humor and expected me not to say anything :
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basicly i expected you to realize that you are using the same methods as komo.
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i spose i did, but i actually followed through with it...
im not going to continue to play tus single when i have no interest in playing hyst, and thats whats picked 90% of the time.
now i just wish komo would follow through with not coming back to www.tus-wa.com