The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Worms: Armageddon => General discussion => Topic started by: Sensei on February 09, 2024, 09:17 PM
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I'm really interested in hearing this. Ofc there are good and bad custom terrains, but same goes for those ~30 game terrains that are there since '99.
Curious what's the reasoning behind refusing to play terrain just because it wasn't in the game 20+ yrs ago. Even more curious about how many of you are there?
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I'm guessing this is due to my comments during the BnG there? If not, I've explained there.
For me though, I only dislike them from a strictly competitive perspective.
At the highest level of, pretty much any game, it's not the mechanical skills that win games, it's knowing the environment in and out perfectly.
In most sports and games, strategy and memory, knowing your environment more than your opponent, is what wins games.
I'm happy to play funners with pre-made BnG maps and also custom terrains.
The reason why I don't like it, or will ever support it, is because allowing custom terrains means anyone can make their own terrain and master it, then use this to get an advantage over their opponents.
If, as I said on stream, 1 new custom terrain was added to the game officially, that would be fine.
If you aren't at that highest level, then everything I've just said isn't really valid to you.
This entire game, and almost any other game on the planet, memorizing EVERYTHING about it is important.
So yeah, the shape of objects is something players can memorise so they can control their game better, which makes for better shots and turns from everything, which makes it more impressive.
So yes, someone like me, who used to practise teleporting on objects of the most popular terrains in BnG to find out where I have to place to get the right banks/transfers etc, is actually something that's very useful.
That's why I allow custom terrains to be played in the AoA Cup, most of the players enjoy it, and none of them have an issue against it.
As a player though, I'd never willingly ever play on them in competitive games.
Funners though! I love them!
Edit - Just to make it absolutely clear, I never ever said I don't like custom terrains in general, just prefer NOT to use them in official matches for Leagues etc(Unless it's a Cup where that's the novelty).
Also, it depends on the scheme a lot too. There are many schemes where terrain doesn't matter at all.
In BnG though, it's VERY important to master the environments.
The more there are, the longer that takes.
Neither option is bad, it's just what we value as the best kind of competitional environment.
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The reason why I don't like it, or will ever support it, is because allowing custom terrains means anyone can make their own terrain and master it, then use this to get an advantage over their opponents.
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You realize custom terrain is same thing as any other terrain in W:A, right!?
They're generated in game. Same as -forest, fruit, time...
What are you on about with "mastering a terrain"? Haha.
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Cmon Sensei, think about it deeper... The objects are different shapes and sizes.
Sooooo... If you understood what I said...
Objects are more important in BnG than the terrain surface itself.
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So you're basically saying custom terrains are bad because you didn't have time to master them?
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So you're basically saying custom terrains are bad because you didn't have time to master them?
That's obviously not what I'm saying. :D
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Is this the first time in last 15 years on TUS that you have no idea what you're on about?
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The funny thing is, I know exactly what I've said.
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Each new custom terrain has its own sets of objects, and each object that comes with the terrain has its own shape. It can be a big shape, a complex shape, or anything in between. But whatever or depending on the shape of the object, it can present a new obstacle to overcome. To overcome a new obstacle could take time, because you have to remember every details that requires to maneuver around it, and not to mention how you can use it with your weapons and tools. I have only mentioned object, not ''objects'', and every custom terrains has a lot of objects. Which could mean you have to spend a lot of time to learn all these Intricacies specified here. Some people may not choose to spend their time to ''master'' every objects of every custom terrains. And WA has over 60 terrains as far as I am aware of.
Though In hypothetical, I could see an argument against this could be ''If you are already an experienced WA player, you should be quite knowledgeable of the pixel structure of the game, and every Intricacies that comes with it. And a new terrain does not require to be learned.'' Of course such argument is flawed IMO. This is because of the esport players of Counter Strike 2. They must learn new maps when it becomes available for them.
But this is just conjecture of course. I personally don't like a lot of the custom terrains because they are not aesthetical pleasing to look at. Super Mario Bros 3 (brown) terrain, is quite pleasing to view and play on, contra to the Cosmic terrain. Cosmic is pretty, but noisy to play on.
If you are really passionate about custom terrains, make a new topic where people could drop their favorite terrains, and sometime later make a poll with the nominated terrains submitted by the user.
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Greetings newcomer!
Advice: Don't ever start playing competitive W:A! There are terrains 20+ years old and someone may have mastered them earlier than you! Apparently - it's a big deal.
There's also bunch of new terrains good people provided, since community is evolving and bringing new stuff to the game on daily basis.. but some players will refuse to play them with you! Because they didn't learn how to jump around objects properly yet. That fkn community and their new fancy terrains.. Goddamit!
Welcome to elitist part of W:A, enjoy your stay!
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i can definitely see how people that take the game competitively might complain about new terrains, for the reasons people have explained above. it takes a lot of time to understand and get even the smallest stuff right (like jumping, or the way you can bounce your grenades). but, at the same time, i don't think any of the active players or active leagues (namely TUS) is at that point of competitive gameplay anymore.
i think adapting to new environments is a great skill, even more valuable than getting used to play on the same terrains over and over again, or even repetitive stuff like notching. i would have grown tired of the game way earlier!! and, if you wanna take an example from other games, league of legends drastically changed the map they had been using for years, despite the highly competitive scene there is. it's time to shake things up a little bit, isn't it?
by the way, how many people have complained about it? i really doubt its a lot, right?
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>> Any logical reason why someone dislikes custom terrain?
Well, Dario didn't complain about the objects but more about the grass, which on some terrains is too smooth and knocks in intermediate are done easier.
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Custom terrains are not part of the official game.
That's the only reason you even need.
Sensei, honestly you are such a toxic person.
You ask people to give you a reason. Then even when you don't understand it properly or agree with it, you just insult people.
Every time, on TUS history your comment history is full of insulting people for stuff like this.
Man I wish even a few of you were more serious about this game. Maybe we could achieve something good together.
All I ever do is f@#!ing help this community and get insulted for it.
Sensei I will never help you with anything again if you ever need it.
What's really sad though is you've have zero indication that you even know what people don't like about it.
To be fair though. You are a pretty casual player so don't blame you for not understanding.
It's not like I'm trying to stop YOU from using them! All I've done is said that I wouldn't do it and why...
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We should seek solidarity Instead of this bickering back and forth. It would favor the Worms Armageddon community greatly.
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Man I wish even a few of you were more serious about this game. Maybe we could achieve something good together.
Damn man.. I wish that as well.. Although, new things wouldn't be part of the official game, right? :)
I'm quite amused you managed to turn this topic into story about yourself again.
Thanks for calling me casual, you big old professional wormer! I do hope you'll learn how to notch on few more terrains, rather than -forest...
@kory - yeah, lot of them have smooth grass and roofs. I guess that's easily changed by terrain maker, if needed.
EDIT: @gab - that was my point... If you think you're a good player, but will cry if someone happens to change your good old '99 object and can't adapt to that.. Are you really that good then!?
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if there were no new custom wkterrains comin out for WA, this game would have bored me to death by now probably :D (or at least certain schemes like: intermediate, team17, which requires random maps) it was an important feature to keep this game alive, if there will be a new patch, it needs to contain the top rated terrains among the old standard ones
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Sensei, you still don't understand.
1st off, EVERYBODY does "notches", the actual thing that most of us hate though is when players count out there shots using math, and also using rulers and stuff on their screens.
It's impossible NOT to notch, because everybody needs to adjust the cursor 1 increment to get the aim right.
I wonder if you even know the difference.
When I say casual, it's not an insult, you don't think about this game on that very deep level. You play mostly for fun, not for the win, this is evident by the fact you constantly whinge about other people in BnG for using a few "easy" shots which you constantly miss yourself lol.
Now, I've already explained the problem with custom terrains, which has nothing to do with these ridiculous sarcastic comments you've made.
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I ported, am working on updating reloaded terrains, and even I can't think on mastering em (tbf I don't think i'll ever play at a comp level so there's that too.). Just want em so I can play the objectively better game with newer games terrains (all that's left is for the praise lines, uh-oh, leavemealone, goaway, ouch soundbank lines to become used in-game and then I am leaving Reloaded 100%)
The only thing I dislike about custom terrains is the lack of artstyle accurate terrain themes. Besides the stuff team17 made, there's very little themes that would fit the game's art.
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For me, there's a massive difference between enjoying something casually, and then actually competing at the highest level possible.
Custom terrains are just not suitable for the highest level of competitive gameplay.
There's only a few people around here with the experience to actually understand that.
Also. People who are saying the game wouldn't be fun without custom terrains are delusional.
They enjoyed the game for long enough without custom terrains and will continue to do so.
If they didn't exist you probably wouldn't even consider it, most of you.
It's further proof of how more and more people are becoming obsessed with "beauty" and "aesthetics".
Dynamic obsolescence. You're basically the byproduct of years of marketing.
Needs a new every few years not because they actually need one. Because the new colour is fancy! 🤣
For me. Primitive minds are obsessed with such things.
Would you only use cars irl if they only came in black like the old days?
I mean... For me playing on custom terrains is like allowing professional sports to customize their game.
Like expecting RLCS players to suddenly have to play on non-standard pitch sizes...
Like. Bring their own ball. Wearing full on medieval armor. Not all using the same uniform but their nightclub clothing...
Tennis being played on surfaces other than grass and clay...
Swimming in a pool of oil instead of water...
It's more the feeling of unfamiliarity that puts you off.
Custom terrains, of course all these people are good enough to actually adapt to such things..
The point is we shouldn't bloody have to because a few people can't live their life without the constant need for "SOMETHING NEW AND FRESH!".
Imagine other pro sports allowing this, it would be crazy lol.
Oh and believe me, I'd be making a bigger fuss about this if it wasn't for the fact you can literally refuse any map you want in Leagues and there's nothing they can do about it.
Don't like custom maps? Cool. You don't have to use them.
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from what i understood how Dream Trance curates themes for Kaos it comes down to whether land objects can be walked over, and sometimes color pallete (Reloaded Puzzle has black borders which is bad)
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This is kind of a silly thing to argue about since people can choose to use them or not use them, which is absolutely fine. They add more variety, challenge and choice to a very old game; not a bad thing IMO. I do think they will be used more and more in competitive games especially when custom terrains become natively supported. Perhaps this will shift the focus away from memorising objects to learning the core game mechanics so well that they can reliably apply to any objects, and perhaps that is the true height of skill in this game.
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This is kind of a silly thing to argue about since people can choose to use them or not use them, which is absolutely fine.
Exactly! Which is why I don't see why Sensei gets so upset and makes such a big deal because 1 person doesn't like using them competitively but has absolutely no problem with other people doing it!
They add more variety, challenge and choice to a very old game; not a bad thing IMO. I do think they will be used more and more in competitive games especially when custom terrains become natively supported. Perhaps this will shift the focus away from memorising objects to learning the core game mechanics so well that they can reliably apply to any objects, and perhaps that is the true height of skill in this game.
Well, literally ANYTHING adds more variety, challenge and choice...
The question is, what changes are suitable for the game for casual players and what's suitable for competitive players? Also, who gets to decide lol?
What I don't like, is having things that affect core gameplay forced upon me, which fortunately isn't the case here!
Since custom terrains are optional, I don't have a problem!
If anyone ever tries to make them mandatory though, that's where I will do everything I can to fight against that.
What happens if we change the gravity by 1%? Or change the fuse of weapons by 1 star? Obviously it's not a MASSIVE change, but it IS something that players have memorized!
I see custom terrains as part of the scheme, because we have specific map styles and styles for specific schemes!
Keep in mind, this has absolutely NOTHING to do with "more variety" or "more challenge" or "more choice".
What actually IS frustrating to me though, is the same people who complain about activity are the very same people who constantly make choices that push potential competitive players away from this game!
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I don't care about custom terrains being used, I will play anything that is not tricky for me eyes. Memorizing every object shape? That's not for me and honestly, I don't think the community was even at this level of nerdiness one day, today there are a little more than a dozen of us, who cares? ..
Games evolve and update all the time, worms armageddon seems to be the only one that the players themselves fight to never have one.
Anyway. It's always the same people.. They care too much and play too little.
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I don't care about custom terrains being used, I will play anything that is not tricky for me eyes. Memorizing every object shape? That's not for me and honestly, I don't think the community was even at this level of nerdiness one day, today there are a little more than a dozen of us, who cares? ..
Kaleu every single one of the very best players who have ever existed have THAT level of "nerdiness".
Why do you call it nerdiness anyway, that's very weird lol.
Do you consider the leading minds of history nerds and losers for considering every single possibility and defeating their opponents?
Is it nerdiness for the allies to go to such extreme lengths of obervation and absolutely crucial detail to get an edge over the axis?
What about football and all other professional sports that literally study and check the equipment that they play with to make sure that it's all legal regarding the rules of the sport.
It's not nerdiness to think about something you enjoy in every possible way, to study it inside out...
That's decidation, passion, discipline, focus, patience.
Technically speaking, that is kind of the literal meaning of a nerd haha, but I'm sure you're saying nerdiness in a depreciative way. Where I feel like it's a good thing and wish there were more people with that level of skill, creativity and passion!
It exists at the very top levels of every field of everything in the world.
For me there are a few players who ever did this in WA and it's why they were the best in their field.
If it weren't for those players, this game wouldn't be the way it is today in terms of the skill ceiling being so high and I am part of that elite group and proud of it.
Games evolve and update all the time, worms armageddon seems to be the only one that the players themselves fight to never have one.
That's not true lol, we actually agree on way more than we disagree with in this game/community.
Just so happens that 99 good things vs 1 bad thing, the 1 bad thing will stick in your memory more than the 99 good things.
Also, a lot of people don't post on things they agree with, only when they see something they really don't like.
Anyway. It's always the same people.. They care too much and play too little.
There's absolutely nobody here who plays too little lol.
Even though I haven't plated TUS Singles for pretty much a decade or something, and haven't been the most active in Clanners over the past 2-3 years, I still play this game more, if not more then at least just as much as the average player. That's including the fact that I spend most of my time spectating and streaming!
When I personally feel that TUS Singles is actually worth the investment of my time then I'll conquer that pretty easily as I do everything else that I want to achieve in my life.
Also, Kaleu, stop avoiding Sbaffo.
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Today the core gameplay of WA remains the same since 1999. Since then we have been given updates that provided us with bug fixes and new features. The game now offer so many new options that if someone wishes can change the physic of the game. and make everything you think you have learned, have to learn over. Example is the ''Unrestricted Rope'' that makes the rope faster, which forces the player to learn how to use this type of rope. But nobody chooses this rope because nobody wants to learn because there is no incentive to. The common argument is ''I can get used to it, but then I will forget about the normal rope.''. Though such argument does not work with custom terrain.. It is as Gabriel pointed out, it takes great skill to jump right into something fresh and know every intricacies of it.
I am a casual player and I do not mind custom maps as longest they are pleasing to view. I always encourage more community made stuff for WA. It helps the game stay fresh.
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The question is, what changes are suitable for the game for casual players and what's suitable for competitive players? Also, who gets to decide lol?
IMO, it's up to the casual and competitive players to decide for themselves how they want to play, by consensus. Over time, a new element/option/scheme is either generally embraced by a community or not and anyone can choose to get involved or not.
For me, custom terrains aren't like adding a new shape to Tetris. Custom maps and variety in terrain shapes are as old as the game itself, and everything else in my opinion (scheme options, rules etc) sits around that assuming the terrain works well for the scheme and there is consensus with the players.
You've commented before about a custom terrain on here, saying: "This map does it for me, it's time to use custom terrains for me now." Perhaps you never meant competitively? But I honestly don't know why you wouldn't want to apply your existing skills on new terrains competitively. You might enjoy it.
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Exactly! Which is why I don't see why Sensei gets so upset and makes such a big deal because 1 person doesn't like using them competitively but has absolutely no problem with other people doing it!
Komito Dave, please, let me know where I've got upset? And what's more important - where I mentioned you in the first post of this topic?
What's your problem man, this topic was never about you. I wanted to know how many players are against custom terrains and why. You said your opinion on twitch already, we got it. Let others speak.
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Komito Dave, please, let me know where I've got upset? And what's more important - where I mentioned you in the first post of this topic?
What's your problem man, this topic was never about you. I wanted to know how many players are against custom terrains and why. You said your opinion on twitch already, we got it. Let others speak.
Ok, let's pretend there was someone else complaining about custom terrains recently then.
You can live in denial that's fine. :D
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Also, Kaleu, stop avoiding Sbaffo.
What? I never avoided anyone in this game, ever. Is this a trick to get my attention? Because it worked lol.
I guess someone is aliasing me then because nowadays I only join wormnet when there's a confirmed clanner.
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What? I never avoided anyone in this game, ever. Is this a trick to get my attention? Because it worked lol.
I guess someone is aliasing me then because nowadays I only join wormnet when there's a confirmed clanner.
this whole "you are avoiding XY" topic is so irrelevant, pointless argument in 2023-24 of WA that I'm starting to think the people who come up with this are lacking basic normal brain-functioning, seriously..
I don't understand why someone came up with something like this against you Kalü, as I haven't understood in the past either why Vok came up with something like "noob bashing" in 2024.. another totally meaningless topic and a non existant word since the time we don't have an active playerbase after like 2018..
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-240227/msg294317/#msg294317
like, these guys are not even playing the game itself anymore.. there isn't anyone to noobbash or avoid anymore even, you do realise that right? :D yeah in the past you had avoiders. and noob bashers too, like Rafka, which 10 out of 10 we can agree he was doing that all the time. now you should just cherish the opportunity when you find yourself some opponents.
and to the people who are not even playing: you just shut the f*ck up (about this topic at least)
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Certain players avoid still probably but it really doesn’t matter much with ELO system, since there is less games played, most people aren’t at the ELO they should be at. For instance, there was a time where komo was getting 2 or 3 points for a bng game against a noob when his rating was 2500 or 2600.
To most of the good players, standings and ratings don’t mean shit, only playoff performance. Jeff aka oldsock never had super high ELO ratings, but won 3 league championships in 4 seasons or back to back to back, can’t remember, one against Random00, the top ELO player from first era of Tus. Legendary performances in maybe the most competitive era of TUS.
I love Chelsea, but chels did a lot of avoiding and acquired high ELO rating but could never get past 1st round of the playoffs.
I say let people play whoever they want. Personally, I’ve only been playing top players for the last few years on tus, playing their top schemes against them. That is what is interesting to me, I’ve long since become bored with beating lower level players in schemes they aren’t good at. This is all preference though, let people play who they want to play in what schemes they want to play, it’s not hurting anyone.
The cream will always rise to the top in bo5 playoff series. Bo7 would even be better, but that’s my personal opinion.
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Certain players avoid still probably but it really doesn’t matter much with ELO system, since there is less games played, most people aren’t at the ELO they should be at. For instance, there was a time where komo was getting 2 or 3 points for a bng game against a noob when his rating was 2500 or 2600.
To most of the good players, standings and ratings don’t mean shit, only playoff performance. Jeff aka oldsock never had super high ELO ratings, but won 3 league championships in 4 seasons or back to back to back, can’t remember, one against Random00, the top ELO player from first era of Tus. Legendary performances in maybe the most competitive era of TUS.
I love Chelsea, but chels did a lot of avoiding and acquired high ELO rating but could never get past 1st round of the playoffs.
I say let people play whoever they want. Personally, I’ve only been playing top players for the last few years on tus, playing their top schemes against them. That is what is interesting to me, I’ve long since become bored with beating lower level players in schemes they aren’t good at. This is all preference though, let people play who they want to play in what schemes they want to play, it’s not hurting anyone.
The cream will always rise to the top in bo5 playoff series. Bo7 would even be better, but that’s my personal opinion.
those are the past, that was my point exactly.. there are no noobbashers and avoiders in 2024 I believe.. like it's literally impossible. and certain players like to throw in these words randomly (maybe out of salty feelings or I dunno)
or maybe I should have said; these words have lost their meaning since the time you don't have active seasons
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Absolutely nobody that has ever existed in WA is NOT an avoider. We all are in different ways.
Look up the pick history of everyone, very few players don't pick and choose their schemes against opponents.
For example, I avoid everyone in TUS Singles, it's just not good enough imo to spend time playing 13 schemes for absolutely nothing! Even if you win everything, maybe half a dozen people will say "Well done" and even though it took you literally years of training to get that good, absolutely nobody cares! Imo it's more of a challenge to master all schemes in WA than win any other competitive eSport in the world or any speedrun in the world.
Not to mention even the schemes you DO like there's hardly anyone to even play with! So unless you're literally obsessed with playing all schemes as in enjoy it more than anything else in the world, everyone is an avoider.
When I played TUS BnG it was to always pick BnG, avoided anything else other than Roper, I'd pretty much just give free wins, I wasn't afraid of losing, but was afraid of wasting my time playing schemes that literally bored the living f**k out of me... But at least I'd play absolutely anyone at BnG! Only trouble is at the time most of the top players would avoid me, Random00 only played me once, never again although I asked.
Many players, will play multiple games vs weaker opponents, then only 1 or 2 against strong opponents. It makes sense right? Play more when you're winning, but you get angry and don't want to play more when you lose too much?
I've heard endless complaining about a specific person and Team17 who won't play other top players often enough. :D
So it's not entirely like, avoiding, but it's like, selective avoiding and picking their schemes, making sure they get more games against weaker players.
Most people are guilty of this, it's not even deliberate really... It's down to the League available to us.
This is one specific reason why I wanted to start up the 3 scheme League, there's no way you can beat the best unless you like one of those schemes because you can't play them on schemes nobody players or have to play for sure against current activity or you miss your chance entirely.
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Wtf Komo, I have no clue from where you took all this "kaleu is avoiding sbaffo" stuff from. I can't do that because It's been years that I don't focus on Singles + Sbaffo returned to WA like 1 month ago?
I'll just assume that at this point you are literally just baiting people to continue discussing and writing down your feelings.
Seek some help dude, it's not ugly to do that. God bless.
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Wtf Komo, I have no clue from where you took all this "kaleu is avoiding sbaffo" stuff from. I can't do that because It's been years that I don't focus on Singles + Sbaffo returned to WA like 1 month ago?
I'll just assume that at this point you are literally just baiting people to continue discussing and writing down your feelings.
Seek some help dude, it's not ugly to do that. God bless.
Hey, if you watched other peoples streams you'd maybe know what I'm talking about. :D
That's the gossip going around. :P
Anyway, don't worry about it, we're all avoiders anyway. Literally everyone. Not a single person excluded.
I just like to join in with the irrelevant nonsense you guys all do from time to time.
You see though, it's not nice when people accuse you of nonsense is it? This happens to me a lot from a few of you. :D
Sometimes I like to poke the bear, see what happens, make sure everything is still fine.
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Good thing you're all on-topic.
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Good thing you're all on-topic.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ECjXp-HUIAMKt0Y.jpg)