The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon

Worms: Armageddon => General discussion => Topic started by: Gauntlet on August 28, 2014, 10:24 AM

Title: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Gauntlet on August 28, 2014, 10:24 AM
Hi all
Let's say I set Minigun delay to 5 turn, and the Minigun crates to 5

If a crate fall before five turns containing the Minigun, I will be able to use it anyway
Am I doing something wrong or what?
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Korydex on August 28, 2014, 10:40 AM
its fine same problem is in current tus t17 scheme
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Gauntlet on August 28, 2014, 11:14 AM
Oh, so it's a known bug
Any way to fix it? I tried searching for an option in SchemEddy but nothing...

Thank you
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Xrayez on August 28, 2014, 11:20 AM
It's not a bug I think, it's just the way it was programmed
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Gauntlet on August 28, 2014, 11:31 AM
Ok
So at the moment there's no way to do this kind of thing?
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: LeTotalKiller on August 28, 2014, 01:01 PM
I thought Minigun crates were supposed to wait until those 5 turns were over.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Gauntlet on August 28, 2014, 01:09 PM
I thought Minigun crates were supposed to wait until those 5 turns were over.
I thought that too.
I noticed this when in a game I found Mad Cows at first turn, even if delay was set to 2.

Then I tried with Minigun and Homing Missile and it was the same
Try, make crate 100% and set delay to whatever you want
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: StepS on August 28, 2014, 02:09 PM
In order to delay a weapon it must have a nonzero ammo. So, you need to have at least one minigun in the scheme by default. Setting the delay to 255 will forbid the use of that weapon (for example, infinite donkeys with a 255 delay result in a ban of donkey crates, even if you get them).
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Deadcode on August 28, 2014, 04:10 PM
It's not a bug I think, it's just the way it was programmed

This is true, but it was a bad design decision. It makes zero ammo + nonzero delay act exactly the same as zero ammo + zero delay, meaning a particular combination of scheme values is completely useless whereas without this, it would be useful.

So I will remove this limitation in the next version of W:A.

There's another related bug/flaw. When a weapon's delay becomes zero, it takes another turn before it can fall in a crate. This creates a discontinuity between delay=0 and delay=1; something with delay=0 can fall on the first turn, but something with delay=1 can't fall until the third turn.

(for example, infinite donkeys with a 255 delay result in a ban of donkey crates, even if you get them).

This is of course only useful for superweapons, because you currently can't set their crate probability.

A 128..255 value is actually interpreted as -128..-1 respectively, and negative delays are specifically treated by the game as infinite delays (so even after 65536 turns or more it'd still be delayed).

While it's true that you wouldn't be able to use an infinitely delayed weapon even if you collected it in a crate, the game disallows delayed weapons from falling in crates. The only way to collect one would be to collect a Crate Shower crate first.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Gauntlet on August 28, 2014, 06:34 PM
Wow cool, is there anything else we can except from the new version?
PS: I haven't played this game since 2005 so I might be a bit rusty and it'd be great if you could me update on the progress and such things
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Korydex on August 28, 2014, 07:04 PM
http://wormtube.worms2d.info/81/wa_beta_showdown
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Gauntlet on August 28, 2014, 07:15 PM
Mmmh, these features are already in ^^
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on August 28, 2014, 10:42 PM
So I will remove this limitation in the next version of W:A.

Would it be totally in vain to ask...

WHEN?
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Deadcode on September 03, 2014, 09:25 PM
Wow cool, is there anything else we can expect from the new version?
PS: I haven't played this game since 2005 so I might be a bit rusty and it'd be great if you could me update on the progress and such things
We're leaving most of it as a surprise :) But yeah, there's lots of other things. Just talking about game logic fixes alone, there are 19 of them.

...WHEN?
Trying to get it ready soon. But can't be more specific than that.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on September 05, 2014, 07:52 AM
Just talking about game logic fixes alone, there are 19 of them.

Holy... :o

(https://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mehnylZOJ71qcv9vp.gif)
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on January 15, 2015, 12:56 AM
Trying to get it ready soon. But can't be more specific than that.

Over 4 months later... -_-
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on May 09, 2015, 08:21 AM
Has the update been cancelled?
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: StepS on May 09, 2015, 08:25 PM
no
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on May 10, 2015, 04:17 AM
no

Then the powers that be, unpaid volunteers or not, should stop being like 343 Industries, and put out a detailed development plan/progress report.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: avirex on May 10, 2015, 08:14 PM
this is nothing more then a hobby for them, regardless if the career they are in matches this hobby or not. (im not sure if it does or not)

whats your hobby? playing the guitar? can you put out a detailed development plan/progress report on when your going to learn to play each and every song on a Jimmy Hendrix CD, and then stick to that plan faithfully? of course not, its just a hobby.

appreciate they put their time into it, dont be bossy ;p
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: style on May 10, 2015, 10:10 PM
this is nothing more then a hobby for them, regardless if the career they are in matches this hobby or not. (im not sure if it does or not)

whats your hobby? playing the guitar? can you put out a detailed development plan/progress report on when your going to learn to play each and every song on a Jimmy Hendrix CD, and then stick to that plan faithfully? of course not, its just a hobby.

appreciate they put their time into it, dont be bossy ;p

Man of words!

Reg.
stylez
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on May 11, 2015, 05:10 AM
I make no distinction between employee and hobbyist. If someone says they're going to do something for somebody else, they should do it, and if there's a delay, the delay should be explained. If not, they should be called out on it.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: avirex on May 11, 2015, 02:30 PM
i suppose i can respect that view on things...

but, they have been doing it... they do generally explain when there is a delay, etc.

they have a visual graph on one website (i dont know the link) that shows their progress.

also remember, they have been putting out updates leading up to 4.0 almost every year, for the past several years.

you also have to keep in mind TUS is not the designated forum for DC and CS to discuss updates, they dont really have much ties to TUS, or any obligation to inform TUS members of their progress, maybe someone else can link you to the websites with more update information and that graph i mentioned, but i do not know the links.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: nino on May 11, 2015, 02:51 PM
AND DONT BE BOSSY, PUTO!!!  :D
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on May 11, 2015, 10:14 PM
Truly, DC/CS have done a fantastic job maintaining this game, but it's been SO long since the last update, with little to no explanation, and the crap that's been going on these days with games from big companies (see below) has made me want to see small developers/maintainers set a good example even more.

http://teambeyond.net/halo-the-master-chief-collection-six-months-later/
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Deadcode on May 19, 2015, 05:09 AM
Sorry about the long delay. I haven't worked on W:A for two months, but let me please make it clear, the update is NOT canceled! The next round of work I put into it will probably continue until I've done all that's needed to get it ready for release. Not sure when exactly that'll be but it shouldn't be much longer.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: nino on May 19, 2015, 11:16 AM
Sorry about the long delay. I haven't worked on W:A for two months, but let me please make it clear, the update is NOT canceled! The next round of work I put into it will probably continue until I've done all that's needed to get it ready for release. Not sure when exactly that'll be but it shouldn't be much longer.

Thats acctually nice news indeed, ty ae Deadcode!
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on May 20, 2015, 10:00 AM
Sorry about the long delay. I haven't worked on W:A for two months, but let me please make it clear, the update is NOT canceled! The next round of work I put into it will probably continue until I've done all that's needed to get it ready for release. Not sure when exactly that'll be but it shouldn't be much longer.

There...was that so hard? 8)

I'm really lookin' forward to this one! :)
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on November 11, 2015, 09:47 AM
Is the absolute bare minimum, that being a monthly statement of "progress made" or "no progress made" REALLY too much to ask for???
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: TheWalrus on November 11, 2015, 11:45 PM
Then the powers that be, unpaid volunteers or not, should stop being like 343 Industries, and put out a detailed development plan/progress report.
Don't know where you got this sense of entitlement, but its entirely unwarranted.

I make no distinction between employee and hobbyist. If someone says they're going to do something for somebody else, they should do it, and if there's a delay, the delay should be explained. If not, they should be called out on it.
Why does everyone need to be held accountable, again, in your world of entitlement?

Just because you refuse to make this distinction which represents the social norm, does not mean the distinction doesn't exist, just that you are oblivious.

Truly, DC/CS have done a fantastic job maintaining this game, but it's been SO long since the last update, with little to no explanation, and the crap that's been going on these days with games from big companies (see below) has made me want to see small developers/maintainers set a good example even more.

http://teambeyond.net/halo-the-master-chief-collection-six-months-later/
You are making the mistake of comparing a developer/maintainer with a 2 man skeleton crew on a almost 17 year old game.

Is the absolute bare minimum, that being a monthly statement of "progress made" or "no progress made" REALLY too much to ask for???

He just said progress is continually being made, so if you haven't heard anything, imagine it being posted again, only just last week.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on November 12, 2015, 09:33 AM
He just said progress is continually being made, so if you haven't heard anything, imagine it being posted again, only just last week.

Huh?

DC's last post in this thread stated:

I haven't worked on W:A for two months...The next round of work I put into it...Not sure when exactly that'll be

Doesn't sound like proof of progress to me.

If you don't like me comparing WA's volunteers to paid developers, then how about other volunteers?

MarathonMan, who develops the CEN64 emulator (http://cen64.com/) in his spare time, is never unseen for more than a few weeks, and always explains his progress or lack thereof.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: TheWalrus on November 12, 2015, 10:33 AM
If you don't like me comparing WA's volunteers to paid developers, then how about other volunteers?

MarathonMan, who develops the CEN64 emulator (http://cen64.com/) in his spare time, is never unseen for more than a few weeks, and always explains his progress or lack thereof.
Consider him the exception then, rather than the rule.  Just because he does things in his way does not make him the standard bearer for any project of similar scope.

If the person in question is paid, then sure, some accountability comes with the responsibility in that case, and I would agree with you.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: KinslayeR on November 12, 2015, 10:38 AM
are u writing from jail? how did u get internet and pc from there oO
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on March 20, 2017, 01:10 AM
Sorry about the long delay. I haven't worked on W:A for two months, but let me please make it clear, the update is NOT canceled! The next round of work I put into it will probably continue until I've done all that's needed to get it ready for release. Not sure when exactly that'll be but it shouldn't be much longer.

It has now been 4 years since the last update. Can't we at least get a hotfix for the gravestone selection bug and finally call it a day?
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: h3oCharles on March 20, 2017, 03:10 PM
Hi all
Let's say I set Minigun delay to 5 turn, and the Minigun crates to 5

If a crate fall before five turns containing the Minigun, I will be able to use it anyway
Am I doing something wrong or what?

If you collect Minigun on 1st round, it will have no delay. But when a next round occurs and you keep the minigun (in any quantity btw) it will have delay

While it's true that you wouldn't be able to use an infinitely delayed weapon even if you collected it in a crate, the game disallows delayed weapons from falling in crates. The only way to collect one would be to collect a Crate Shower crate first.

What about Rubber Worm crate rate?
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: WTF-8 on March 20, 2017, 04:55 PM
> the game disallows delayed weapons from falling in crates
I wish this was true for RubberWorm's spawn-multiple-crates-between-turns mode. Despite Donkey being delayed forever in the Kaos scheme, it still shows up in crates sometimes. That's about as useless as a Suicide Bomber crate.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on July 17, 2017, 09:34 AM
I want to make it absolutely known that I am very grateful for everything DC & CS have done over the years. But even so, I feel I have to call them out on this situation.

It has been over four years since the last game update. The game is still being played, WormNET is still up and being maintained, and there are still some bugs. The maintainers know about these bugs.

Nearly three years ago, Deadcode said an update with 19 logic fixes was in development, and would be ready "soon". Eight months later, in May 2015, he said it "shouldn't be much longer". This was the last time anything was said about the progress of the update.

I am not calling DC & CS lazy or anything like that. There could be several good reasons for the next update taking so long. A hard to track down bug, a fix breaking something else, serious personal problems. The issue is that WE DON"T KNOW.

Deadcode was last active on TUS in May, and last posted in February. CyberShadow is very active, consistently replying to requests for help in Tech Support. In the two year period since the last update on progress, unless Team17 has DC & CS under a super strong NDA where they can't even say that they can't say anything, I have seen nothing preventing either of them from taking literally 1 minute to say either "progress still being made, update will come out eventually", "update stalled, future unclear", or "update cancelled, sorry".

I am not asking too much. In fact, I am asking for next to nothing. Yet, as I have been previously in this thread, I fully expect to be harangued again for not treating DC & CS like gods who can do no wrong, just because they're volunteers. It is not written anywhere that volunteers can not be called out for a lack of communication or not be compared to other volunteers in similar situations that communicate much better (see my prior post about MarathonMan, who continues to consistently update about his slow progress).

This will be the last time I bring this up, so at least you can't accuse me of not shutting up about this matter...
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: WTF-8 on July 17, 2017, 01:57 PM
http://wqdb.org/?562
kek
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Korydex on July 17, 2017, 03:44 PM
Extremist, what for do u need the update?
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Sensei on July 17, 2017, 06:24 PM
Bit harsh from korydex, but made a point. You're never online, Extremist. Don't say it's cause of the bugs involving W:A. Because it's not. Would be nice to know about the progress of 4.0, for sure.. But they don't owe it to anyone here, especially not to inactive players.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Korydex on July 17, 2017, 08:37 PM
Would be nice to know about the progress of 4.0
www.wormsng.com
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: CyberShadow on July 17, 2017, 10:54 PM
I am not asking too much. In fact, I am asking for next to nothing. Yet, as I have been previously in this thread, I fully expect to be harangued again for not treating DC & CS like gods who can do no wrong, just because they're volunteers. It is not written anywhere that volunteers can not be called out for a lack of communication or not be compared to other volunteers in similar situations that communicate much better (see my prior post about MarathonMan, who continues to consistently update about his slow progress).

Hi,

The state of the update is essentially "when it's ready" taken too far. Almost everyone involved with the updates one way or another agrees that it should have been released a long time ago. It has been very demotivating for me as well to have my work from many years ago to still not have seen the light of day.

This is why we agreed that Worms Armageddon v3.8 will be released not later than December 31, 2017 (plus however long Team17's release process takes), ready or not. Unfinished features will be cut, buggy or insufficiently tested changes reverted. There are already many good changes queued to make a great update. I will do my best to ensure this happens personally.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: GreeN on July 18, 2017, 09:56 AM
hype!
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Masta on July 18, 2017, 11:04 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/qDQeQMf.png)
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Sensei on July 18, 2017, 11:15 AM
The freezing rope bug is especially annoying in Big Rope Race.


Oh. This happens quite a lot. At least once per 2-3 games.
Never thought it as a bug tho, just bad timing. :/

EDIT: But it also have positive effect. If roof is on lower height, sometimes you'll exploit it on purpose for faster momentum.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: XanKriegor on July 18, 2017, 11:55 AM
Was not it a 90" rope release? If so, fail is fully deserved.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Mega`Adnan on July 18, 2017, 12:30 PM
Would be nice to know about the progress of 4.0
www.wormsng.com

(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XJ_Yf9MYFxg/maxresdefault.jpg)

Still same progress.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: The Extremist on July 19, 2017, 05:59 AM
Bit harsh from korydex, but made a point. You're never online, Extremist. Don't say it's cause of the bugs involving W:A. Because it's not. Would be nice to know about the progress of 4.0, for sure.. But they don't owe it to anyone here, especially not to inactive players.

Fair ball. I've been preoccupied the last couple of years playing console games, often timesinks like Elder Scrolls, Zelda, and Smash Bros. When I do use my PC, 99% of the time it's for non-gaming activities. I still love WA, and check in here often.

I keep looking forward to the next update because I want the game to be the best it can be. I have symbolic reasons as well. An update is a sign of life, a sign of continuation. There's something endearing about a game from 1999 still managing to be one of the most hardcore, competitive games on the market. I'm a big fan of games from that era. I also post on forums for GoldenEye 007 and Halo: Combat Evolved.

I'm almost through with my console timesinks, and am in the process of upgrading my PC to run Planet Coaster. Both will lead to me playing more WA, update or not.

Oh, and thank you for checking in, CyberShadow. It's not a super detailed progress report, but something is all that I wanted.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Masta on July 20, 2017, 11:56 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/qDQeQMf.png)
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: KinslayeR on July 20, 2017, 12:18 PM
I agree, this is totally ice cream bug and should be deleted in next update.
I cant even do swimming gorilla coz that bug
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: XanKriegor on July 20, 2017, 02:12 PM
Nice tool. Yes, video was not frame perfect.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: j0e on July 21, 2017, 08:12 PM
I am not asking too much. In fact, I am asking for next to nothing. Yet, as I have been previously in this thread, I fully expect to be harangued again for not treating DC & CS like gods who can do no wrong, just because they're volunteers. It is not written anywhere that volunteers can not be called out for a lack of communication or not be compared to other volunteers in similar situations that communicate much better (see my prior post about MarathonMan, who continues to consistently update about his slow progress).

Hi,

The state of the update is essentially "when it's ready" taken too far. Almost everyone involved with the updates one way or another agrees that it should have been released a long time ago. It has been very demotivating for me as well to have my work from many years ago to still not have seen the light of day.

This is why we agreed that Worms Armageddon v3.8 will be released not later than December 31, 2017 (plus however long Team17's release process takes), ready or not. Unfinished features will be cut, buggy or insufficiently tested changes reverted. There are already many good changes queued to make a great update. I will do my best to ensure this happens personally.
That's really great to hear!!!! I'm sure the update will deliver a big infusion of old players back to the community. Can we anticipate any new features, or is it mainly bugfixes? As far as I can remember there hasn't been much information about the contents of the 3.8 update.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Deadcode on October 09, 2017, 03:14 AM
Any chance this bug will be fixed? https://www.tus-wa.com/files/file-699/
The freezing rope bug is especially annoying in Big Rope Race.

Quote
The bug froze the rope at 90° so yes the rope was released at 90°, but the fail is not deserved. In this case you can not visually see the rope freezing. The angle of the subsequent rope shot is calculated at the frame of the rope releasing and here the rope freeze bug occurs at the same frame the rope releases.
(https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/crates-and-weapons-delay-25124/?action=dlattach;attach=185503;image)

The bug replay you linked to (with its accompanying discussion thread) and YouTube video look completely unrelated. Without seeing the original replay file I can't be 100% sure, but it looks to me like the rope was indeed released pointing straight up.

W:A's rope and projectile physics both have many calculations happen between frames. The last rope angle rendered before releasing the rope is never the same as the angle at which the next rope will be shot, unless the rope is perfectly still when released. This is because the rope internally undergoes a frame worth of motion before being released. If you had actually done a quick test under normal circumstances, instead of making assumptions on how the game works, you would have seen this.

It looks like you took those screenshots from the original replay file, not the YouTube video, as I see no compression artifacts. In any case, screenshots and video are of very limited usefulness for analysis. The replay file is needed.

If you really think there's a bug going on, then post a replay file, not a video, and I will analyze it. But I think what is going on here is just bad timing by the player, resulting in a well-deserved fail.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Masta on October 09, 2017, 02:11 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/qDQeQMf.png)
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Deadcode on October 09, 2017, 02:54 PM
[attachment=1]

Thank you! And wow, I am surprised. There actually is some of that bug going on here. The rope froze for about 1/2 a frame.

So, I wasn't planning on fixing this bug before (I thought it to be an obscure glitch that almost never happened, and was fun when it did) but now I see that it definitely needs to be fixed, and will do so!

Edit: However, this will probably be the biggest change I've ever made to the rope physics, in that it may actually alter the feel a little bit. There's a chance some experienced ropers may have subconsciously adapted to this glitch by anticipating how the rope sometimes moves less when it's snagged and vertical.

Edit 2:
On second thought, ropers probably haven't adapted to this glitch, even subconsciously, given that it's apparently such a common choke. I do feel nervous about changing it though! Years ago there was a thread about how people thought the WWP rope felt different than the W:A rope. I then proved that it was identical by patching the WWP EXE to record replay data, and playing it back in W:A with no desynchronization. So it seems the difference in feel, if there was one, was probably from my improvements to the calculation of in-game passage of time – it used to use GetTickCount() and I changed it to use QueryPerformanceCounter(), along with other improvements.

Since then I did make some subtle changes to the rope physics, like the fix in v3.6.23.0, "In free space, the worm would always be shifted approximately one pixel up and to the left every time the rope caught", and others. This rope freeze fix will be the least subtle so far. (Note, there's also another related glitch, in which the rope "speeds up" upon hitting a snag. I'll preserve that one. If I ever do anything to change it, it'll just be to make it behave more predictably.)
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Masta on October 09, 2017, 03:28 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/qDQeQMf.png)
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Deadcode on October 09, 2017, 04:24 PM
No, thank you. I know a lot of people who will be happy to see this bug gone. You and CS are the best, man.
And sorry about the wrongful assumptions and generally just being too overconfident in this thread.

Thanks, and apology accepted!
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: skunk3 on October 09, 2017, 07:13 PM
Personally, I've never found this 'bug' to be much of an issue. Whenever a failure such as that happens to me, I just assume that it is because of my bad timing and nothing more. Fixing a very occasional half-frame rope bug might be a good thing but ONLY if it doesn't drastically change the feel of the rope overall. I have definitely adapted to this bug, and years ago. It is frustrating when it happens, but it is definitely avoidable.

On the topic of 4.0 - I gotta say that I am a bit confused here. Deadcode, you said that 4.0 was essentially ready and has been for a long time, yet it hasn't been released. On the other hand, you mentioned releasing 3.8 before Q1 2018. You also said that there's probably some authorization that needs to be done by Team17 before 'approving' the patch or whatever. Why does Team17 even need to do anything? They haven't been involved with this game in any way that I know of for ages now. The only thing they've done any time recently is make W:A available for sale on Steam. Furthermore, if almost "everyone involved" (quote) agrees that it should have been released long ago, what is the hold up? Who is the person or persons making this decision? There's been talk of 4.0 for many years now (this thread attests to that), so what's the deal? Please know that I am not being snarky or pushy here; I am just genuinely curious because an update might be the impetus needed for many absentee players to start playing again.

In short, if 4.0 is finished, why not release it and skip 3.8 entirely?

Regardless of all that, I am really excited to see a new update and cannot wait to see a list of fixes / additions / etc. W:A is by far my favorite game of all time and I am extremely pleased that it is still being improved upon. Would it be too much to ask to know in advance what we can expect from 3.8/4.0? I don't mind waiting as long as I know what is coming, but waiting without knowing anything is kinda irritating. I think that my hopes are too high right now and I want to bring myself back down to Earth a bit so I don't expect any crazy shit, like Wormpot added, extra weapons and utilities, etc.

Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: TheWalrus on October 09, 2017, 08:33 PM
4.0 isnt done vince, dunno where you got that idea
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Deadcode on October 09, 2017, 08:53 PM
I never said 4.0 was ready. Work on it hasn't even begun, let alone being ready.

(Edit: BTW, by an alternative definition of what counts as part of 4.0, CyberShadow has done a significant amount of work on the non-W:A-specific API aspects of it. To my way of thinking, though, "beginning work on 4.0" would mean working on W:A-specific aspects.)

There are a ton of finished features and fixes already implemented for 3.8, but release is blocked by some other things that aren't ready. I'm trying my best to make it ready, to meet the end-of-the-year deadline.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Sensei on October 09, 2017, 10:47 PM
Atm, WormNAT2 fix is much more needed than new W:A update, imho.
I think lot of occasional players left because Hosting Buddy was lagging crazy for a few weeks.

And most of the league players were using WormNAT2 module, but unfortunately, it still isn't fixed as I've heard yesterday.

It's not the main reason W:A isn't played like before, but it definitely had some role with ppl giving up.

Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: skunk3 on October 10, 2017, 12:17 AM
4.0 isnt done vince, dunno where you got that idea

Judging by the posts in this thread, elsewhere, and also hearsay, I came to the assumption that 4.0 was already complete but for whatever reason, we'd have to make do with 3.8 being released until a couple more things were ironed out.

Read DC's post on page 3. Maybe he was referencing 3.8 specifically, but there's other posts going back YEARS that kinda hint to the fact that 4.0 is complete, unless I was entirely missing something. Anyhow, it's good to be corrected and know what is going on. Personally, I am more than fine with 3.8 rolling out and hoping/waiting for 4.0 to come later as it has been SO LONG since any sort of an update has been released for this game. @DeadCode - if instead of 4.0 you were referencing 3.8 in your post near the bottom of page 8, then the same question applies - if "almost everyone" agrees that it should have been released long ago (and therefore, presumably finished) then why hasn't it been released yet?

I also agree with Sensei in that WormNAT2 needs to be fixed for sure.

All I can say is that I hope that updates continue to come for years... no other game has ever drawn me in like W:A and if I had the know-how I'd work feverishly towards making this game as awesome as possible.

 
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: Deadcode on October 10, 2017, 03:42 AM
Read DC's post on page 3
if instead of 4.0 you were referencing 3.8 in your post near the bottom of page 8

Could you please link to posts by URL instead of referencing them in this way? The forum software lets you set 5, 10, 15, 25, or 50 posts per page, and this is a per-user setting. With >=10 posts/page there isn't even a page 8. With 5 posts/page there's no post by me near the bottom of page 8. So I don't know what posts you were referring to...

if "almost everyone" agrees that it should have been released long ago (and therefore, presumably finished) then why hasn't it been released yet?

I'm sorry, I can't be specific. Basically, I feel it would hurt the long-term future of the game to release it at this point, with certain features unfinished. But whether or not I manage to finish these things, you will be getting a release by the end of the year.

After releasing 3.8, I want to go back to a much more frequent release schedule, like it used to be before 3.6.28.0.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: skunk3 on October 10, 2017, 08:31 AM
Read DC's post on page 3
if instead of 4.0 you were referencing 3.8 in your post near the bottom of page 8

Could you please link to posts by URL instead of referencing them in this way? The forum software lets you set 5, 10, 15, 25, or 50 posts per page, and this is a per-user setting. With >=10 posts/page there isn't even a page 8. With 5 posts/page there's no post by me near the bottom of page 8. So I don't know what posts you were referring to...

if "almost everyone" agrees that it should have been released long ago (and therefore, presumably finished) then why hasn't it been released yet?

I'm sorry, I can't be specific. Basically, I feel it would hurt the long-term future of the game to release it at this point, with certain features unfinished. But whether or not I manage to finish these things, you will be getting a release by the end of the year.

After releasing 3.8, I want to go back to a much more frequent release schedule, like it used to be before 3.6.28.0.

My fault... it was CyberShadow who said something in this thread, and I misread/misinterpreted it to boot. I have, however, read things elsewhere that led me to believe that 4.0 was basically finished and for whatever mysterious reason, it wasn't being released. I couldn't even begin to remember where I read that though. At this point it could just be my imagination playing tricks on me because it's probably been years.

I definitely don't want anything to be released that is buggy or would otherwise hamper the gameplay we all enjoy. I am really psyched to see what this update entails, and hearing about a more regular update schedule afterwards is sweet too.

Last thing (for now) - and I am not trying to be an ass here - but what's with all the secrecy and hush-hush? This is a very niche game that is positively ancient by online multiplayer standards, and most of the people who frequent these forums are people who have played the game and been a part of the community for many years. I understand not wanting to NOT deliver on stated goals and/or promises, but aside from that I don't really get why everything shouldn't be completely transparent at this point. Hell, this game is rapidly approaching a 20-year anniversary! I just find it kinda irksome that there's a select few that seem to get all of this insider information while the rest of us just sit in the dark and hope for some morsel of information gets pitched our way.

Speaking of that, Team17 has had the absolute worst customer relations / community management / communication lately. This is unrelated, but they gave WMD players a 'roadmap' of planned (and sorely-needed) additions to the game back in January and as of today like 80% of the planned updates have yet to see the light of day, and on top of that, Team17 is basically refusing to speak about it whatsoever. Anyway... that's another topic entirely. I just wanted to complain.

 
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: KoreanRedDragon on October 12, 2017, 04:15 PM
Speaking of that, Team17 has had the absolute worst customer relations / community management / communication lately. This is unrelated, but they gave WMD players a 'roadmap' of planned (and sorely-needed) additions to the game back in January and as of today like 80% of the planned updates have yet to see the light of day, and on top of that, Team17 is basically refusing to speak about it whatsoever. Anyway... that's another topic entirely. I just wanted to complain.

That right there is a great reason not to overpromise and underdeliver, wouldn't you agree? It just leaves your reputation as a game dev/maintainer in a worse place each time a deadline passes, and harms the game itself as well, leaving its community less excited and interested than it was to begin with. Even so, I think Deadcode and CyberShadow are reasonably willing to discuss the general plans for WA's future with anyone who contacts them about it. They just don't want to talk about specific features, I imagine primarily because it would ruin the surprise on patch day, but also because while things are still being worked on and tested, they just can't know that they won't hit a roadblock that'll mean a specific feature might get delayed for an update or two.
Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: skunk3 on October 14, 2017, 05:07 AM
Speaking of that, Team17 has had the absolute worst customer relations / community management / communication lately. This is unrelated, but they gave WMD players a 'roadmap' of planned (and sorely-needed) additions to the game back in January and as of today like 80% of the planned updates have yet to see the light of day, and on top of that, Team17 is basically refusing to speak about it whatsoever. Anyway... that's another topic entirely. I just wanted to complain.

That right there is a great reason not to overpromise and underdeliver, wouldn't you agree? It just leaves your reputation as a game dev/maintainer in a worse place each time a deadline passes, and harms the game itself as well, leaving its community less excited and interested than it was to begin with. Even so, I think Deadcode and CyberShadow are reasonably willing to discuss the general plans for WA's future with anyone who contacts them about it. They just don't want to talk about specific features, I imagine primarily because it would ruin the surprise on patch day, but also because while things are still being worked on and tested, they just can't know that they won't hit a roadblock that'll mean a specific feature might get delayed for an update or two.

I don't even feel like they overpromised all that much. A lot of the stuff they planned to fix or add is small things that should be easily doable.

The problem with Team17 (as far as I can surmise) is that they stretch themselves too thin and are too ambitious. They obviously want to make money, so they are constantly developing and/or publishing games, and once a new game is released it gets maybe a couple months of support and after that they kinda stop trying because they are working on the next stuff coming out. They are porting WMD to the Nintendo Switch right now, which is probably one of the main reasons as to why they haven't really accomplished much else. What bugs me the most is the lack of communication though. The community managers were all over the Steam forums around the time WMD launched last August, but as time went on they basically disappeared. Jonno pops in and makes a vague statement every now and again but for several months there wasn't any sort of sign whatsoever.

Right now I know that they are planning on releasing a building editor as well as a hat editor, which is cool and all but there's so many other things that need to be addressed first, things that are far more important IMO. I couldn't care less about being able to wear custom hats when we have basic problems, like not being able to make custom schemes with all of the weapons in the game. That is just one of many serious oversights that exist within WMD. I am super frustrated with the situation because, as I have said before, WMD could be AWESOME if they just put some more work into it. All the makings of a good Worms game are there, but as per usual Team17 made some bonehead decisions along the way. The game didn't even launch with a global multiplayer chat, for f@#!'s sake! All we had was a list of hosted games. Months later they finally added a chat, but it is nothing like WormNET and most people don't even use it.

I don't want to sound arrogant or entitled in any way, but I hope that in the future they actually reach out to people like me who have a lot of experience with the various Worms titles and know them inside and out and pick my brain for what I consider to be the best aspects of Worms. Why do they implement a cool weapon, utility, or game mechanic and then fail to include it in a future game? It drives me nuts! The dynamic water and worm class system in Revolution + Clan Wars was actually really awesome and it is a shame that they didn't make a comeback in WMD... and instead we get crafting (which I hate) and vehicles - which I am not a fan of, but hate much less than crafting. The buildings are a nice new feature though.

Numerous people have pleaded with Team17 to update the roadmap or give us any sign as to what is going on, but all we have heard in months is that we will likely be getting a couple new terrain themes, and building + hat editors are going to be coming soon-ish. If they had stuck to the roadmap we would have all of that stuff and lots more already. *sigh*


Title: Re: Crates and weapons delay
Post by: j0e on October 14, 2017, 01:38 PM
Quote from: Deadcode
I'm sorry, I can't be specific. Basically, I feel it would hurt the long-term future of the game to release it at this point, with certain features unfinished. But whether or not I manage to finish these things, you will be getting a release by the end of the year.

After releasing 3.8, I want to go back to a much more frequent release schedule, like it used to be before 3.6.28.0.

Wonderful news Deadcode.

Regarding roadmaps and expectations, etc, I'd like to link this (http://tim32.org/~muzer/t17-archive/forum.team17.com/archive/index.php/t-16183.html) old team17 forum thread here to remind everyone that 4.0 as originally envisioned wasn't all that ambitious, compared to what it has become. It wasn't an impossibly daunting task. I had forgotten how simple it was supposed to be. All it consisted of was a new scheme format (based on replay files) allowing fiddler-like game options. Back when that forum post was made, it sounded like there was a clearly-defined path to achieving that scheme format. Reading the plans in that old thread vs the 4.0 feature idea/dump list (http://worms2d.info/4) is a day and night difference. The first thread inspires and excites me and sounds possible. Deadcode himself sounds excited and inspired. On the other hand I get demotivated about 2 seconds into reading the 4.0 dump list, which is basically a call to re-program the entire game from scratch. Plus all kinds of extra shit like ranks, real-time, live map editing. It is way too ambitious. And you can't really release small iterative updates when you're rewriting the whole game because nothing works until it's done. Therefore we haven't had updates in a long time, which you say is demotivating, and is something that as a chronic procrastinator myself I completely understand.

Please humour my SpaceX analogies here for a second. The ITS was announced in 2016. It was the 42-engine rocket that was going to take hundreds of people and hundreds of tonnes of cargo to Mars in a very short timeframe. It was by far the largest rocket anyone had ever planned or built. It had tons of groundbreaking tech planned for it such as the most powerful engine with most aggressive design (highest temps, pressures, etc) ever, instant reusability without refurbishment, legless landing right back into the launch mounts, and a huge massively-pressurized spherical liquid oxygen carbon fibre fuel tank, even though CF is porous and is eroded by LOX. Everyone was hugely inspired, but when engineers looked at the plans in detail they laughed. It was concluded by everyone that the budget, timeline, and features would have to be drastically changed. So this year, SpaceX announced their scaled down version, the BFR, which is 25% smaller, resulting in a ~50% payload loss. It keeps most of the original features but now sounds a lot more feasible, and this time is actually economically viable. By the time it's ready, further compromises, such as the legless landing, will probably have had to be made. But it will still fulfill its end goal of facilitating human colonization of Mars.

Elon Musk looks no weaker for making these concessions - in fact he seems more pragmatic and credible. His greatest skill is arguably his ability to have insane inspiring vision, but not to get married to his ideas. He is always able to revise or cancel plans that are impractical, without succumbing to the sunk-cost fallacy. Elon's philosophy equates to "shoot for the moon and (if there are setbacks) you'll land on the stars" which is directly opposed to the other common piece of wisdom "under-promise and over-deliver". And the opposite of that, what critics might stupidly say about Musk or DC+CS, "over-promising and under-delivering", isn't always a bad thing. It's just a common phrase that in English unfortunately carries negative connotations. I hope you can see why, even though I haven't explained my thoughts well, in cases like with WA and SpaceX, that second phrase is bullshit. The ends justify the means, or something vaguely like that. I'm not making this comparison in order to imply you made any promises.

Anyway, if major work hasn't started on 4.0 yet, I'd suggest ditching that god-awful plan/idea dump roadmap and just add what you can via simple hacks. Keep it simple. Nobody cares that much if the underlying code is beautiful or whether certain aspects are open-sourced, free-range or organic. You can see that with PX - the code sucks, it runs like shit, buggy as hell, but people still love it, because it allows new possibilities for an aging game. Certain things may never be possible, for example being able to resume from replays -- that's ok -- it was not even part of the original 4.0 plans. I obviously don't know what would or wouldn't be possible without rewriting things. However I remember a big argument against making hackish interim features is they would become redundant when code was rewritten.

I have zero doubt that you guys, Deadcode and Cybershadow, would have the talent to do everything in that list. I know for a fact Deadcode has a genius-level understanding of the WA code. We've all seen his long-winded explanations where he explains things down to 1/65536 of a pixel, and his replays where he flies sheeps through a 99.999% solid map or has moles doing unspeakable things. Then there's Silkworm, which you didn't even have the source code for, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. Then with Cybershadow (whose work I'm less familiar with) HostingBuddy and WormNAT2 are the best things to happen to this game in many many years, and most likely the only reason it's still alive. But I also think that unless you remortgaged your houses and did this as full-time jobs, WA would already be dead by the time all that code was rewritten.

The simple passage of time itself is very demotivating. It creates a self-reinforcing cycle. Fundamentally you seemed demotivated because it has taken so long, and it has taken so long because you were demotivated. Without frequent updates, you lose the frequent motivation to continue. So I think returning to a more rapid release schedule is the best news I've heard about WA in years. It sounds like you guys are on the right track and I'm super excited for 3.8. Keep up the great work.