Schemes > Leagues
Hysteria scheme, By GreeN
FoxHound:
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on October 11, 2020, 02:54 PM ---Great post, you are one of the few people who have ever discussed this as an opinion based on what you personally think is fun and competitive.
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Thank you, I like to discuss this kind of thing. I'm enjoying this discussion.
Well, good points about adding manual worm placement to Selecsteria. I usually don't like too much the manual placement because sometimes it takes too much time before the match starts, however in hysteria league the pattern is 4 worms for each player so it is not so much time doing this (and it is competitive play). The scheme already has a workaround to deal with initicial bad positions which is delay in all weapons for one turn, this way, you can select the worm standing on the most dangerous place during hot-seat time and teleport it to a safer place. I think randomness is nice sometimes even though when the worms are too exposed this is not good.
--- Quote from: TheWalrus on October 11, 2020, 06:20 PM ---
You've made the scheme more unfair than it previously was, fractional round timer makes it even more unbalanced.
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About fractional round timer I really don't understand Walrus' point of view because the Sudden Death of all normal schemes works this way, appearing normally. In hysteria if you want Sudden Death you necessarily have to skip one turn (this means you will not attack, being more vulnerable) to make it happen. In Selecsteria you can attack at the very end of the time and still make Sudden Death come sooner and even after the opponent's attack it will count on the timer, so it will help who is losing to have a chance to win with the flood (a different scenario). And just a reminder: who created Selecsteria was not me, was Kaleu. I just helped him with some 3.8 new features possibilities and with testings. But, yes, I liked the scheme and yes, I posted it here.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on October 11, 2020, 02:54 PM ---
With that being said, if the scheme itself changes from Hysteria to Selecsteria, that won't bother me, because it changes the gameplay and strategy dramatically so it deserves a different name and will be considered an entirely different scheme
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Yeah, I think maybe the same way there are a lot of Poker variants, Cue sports variants, Hysteria could have the tradicional Hysteria and Selecsteria or another proposal dealing with the polemical "telecow" or even the other existing variations of this scheme (like the ones that use alternative weapons, like low powered banana instead of grenade).
And I definitely agree with TheKomodo's point of view that attacking your own worms and pilling is a valid strategy, I just think that the "telecow" subject is already a tendency, and maybe TUS should open an alternative play to people who want to play Hysteria in a different way, more focusing on the hard shots than a "conventional gameplay-related strategy". I think BnG rules exist for a reason, someone thought that a sitting nade is not as fun or as pro as grenades that explode exactly at the right time, that direct shots are not so fun as well calculated indirect shots. I believe "no telecow" rule is something in this direction.
--- Quote from: TheKomodo on October 11, 2020, 02:54 PM ---
For example, i'd be more than happy to stream and commentate on Selecsteria Tournaments, possibly even donate a little cash to an already existing prizepool, to see multiple people get involved and really give it a good test.
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Oh, I really apreciate people who have this type of iniciative.
TheWalrus:
--- Quote from: FoxHound on October 12, 2020, 02:49 AM ---About fractional round timer I really don't understand Walrus' point of view because the Sudden Death of all normal schemes works this way, appearing normally. In hysteria if you want Sudden Death you necessarily have to skip one turn (this means you will not attack, being more vulnerable) to make it happen. In Selecsteria you can attack at the very end of the time and still make Sudden Death come sooner and even after the opponent's attack it will count on the timer, so it will help who is losing to have a chance to win with the flood (a different scenario).
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Your reach exceeds your grasp, fox. I just think you don’t understand the strategy or mechanics of hysteria, which is fine. Initiating sudden death in 90% of scenarios is advantageous to the person in the lead, not the person losing. I have never intentionally tried to force SD when I am behind in hysteria, nor would any good hyst player. When you are behind, you usually take a safe hide and try to chip away at the opponent over time. Time is your ally. The most common endgame scenario is one player, in the lead, at the top of the map, with multiple worms, and an opponent that has fallen behind in the game taking a side hide shooting bazookas from a position difficult to hit. Letting the opponent do this for a period of time when you have the lead is bad strategy, it is in your best interest to just force SD than wait.
With this scheme I can easily see the player with good worm positions at start continually dominate throughout the game, especially if one player has trapped worms. Player 1 with good worm positions can spread their worms out and make sure they can attack any part of the map, and the instant player 2 tried to move their worms out from trapped or low worm positions to the top of the map, one at a time, they get beat back with ease. I can easily see a scenario where you start with the lead, and steamroll the rest of the way by attrition based on nothing other than RNG worm positions.
For other good points, refer to komo’s posts.
It’s just not a competitive scheme by any means and fails to improve upon any of the key mechanics of hysteria. Select worm had been suggested in the past many, many times; and it didn’t work then and doesn’t work now. This is not a new idea besides the fractional timer, which I am not opposed to, and it should probably be implemented. All of it as a package, however, just doesn’t make for meaningful gameplay. Might be decent for funners, but the winner in a FFA hysteria game is a crapshoot anyway so why even have select worm, anyhow. Just my take.
If you want a demonstration as to how you can be held hostage by the mechanics of selectsteria, I’d be happy to get on for a few games to demonstrate.
FoxHound:
--- Quote from: TheWalrus on October 12, 2020, 03:57 PM ---Your reach exceeds your grasp
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Oh, it seems this is a beautiful verse from a Robert Browning poem. English is not my native language and poetry is not a simple thing to understand, I'm more used with portuguese language poets. I think I got what you mean with this sentence by the context, though. Now your explanation makes a lot of sense, there is a good logic behind it. I'm really not used to play in WA competitions and Hysteria is not a scheme I dominate. So, you can be right, I would accept playing to see in practice your point. As it is written in Selecsteria description, the scheme can be changed. Kaleu is open for alterations. The "no telecow" rule issue is still valid, in my opinion.
TheKomodo:
Why can't every debate/conversation be like this? Different sides actually listening to each other, offering their time, opinions/experience and respect, even agreeing to work/play together...
FoxHound:
Hi, sorry to revive this discussion. I just figured out something that can be interesting to hysteria, using 3.8 features. You know that glitch that happens when you are firing a bazooka against the wind from the Jet Pack (the bazooka instantly blows in the worm's face in mid air)? I had an insight today and discovered that this glitch can be 100% "fixed" now, but with a "cost", side effects that affect the gameplay. You just need to select the option "Phased Worms (Allied) --> Worms+Weapons" and the glitch will never happen anymore, so you can fire a zook against the wind from the jet pack with no fear to explode in your worm's face, the same goes for some grenade shots that bounces on the worm's back. I know this glitch can be used in purpose, but I believe it is much more a frustration than a benefit. About the side effects, yeah, the cow will pass through allied worms, you will be able to shot through allied worms, you will not be able to use an allied worm as a step to jump and reach another place and allied worms will not block you. These are considerable changes to the gameplay, some people may not like this idea, but I believe it would make Hysteria (or Selecsteria) even more interesting. The Jet Pack shots are so amazing, now they can be fully explored. What do you think?
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