Schemes > Leagues

Hysteria scheme, By GreeN

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FoxHound:
I would like to post Kaleu's proposal to the Hysteria league scheme, using v3.8 features to avoid the "Telecow" (worm rotation abuse) without using a rule for that and also making Sudden Death arrival something more natural (now people don't need to skip turns for this).

Selecsteria: https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-3398/

TheKomodo:

--- Quote ---The main purpose of this scheme is to eliminate the unfair practice of "Telecow", while maintaining the scheme's characteristics.
--- End quote ---

There is literally nothing unfair about it, by the very definition of the word unfair:

The purpose of this scheme is to kill all enemy worms, there are no rules, how can it possibly be unfair when there are no rules, it's anything goes, and both players must do whatever it takes to try and achieve victory?

Whether it's suicide, piling, keeping distance, BnG skills, Jetpack skills, being able to execute huge combos like low gravity jetpack and mine/zook,or any other technique and strategy you wish to employ, whether it's planned, executed perfectly, or totally improvised, adapting to every situation as it happens.

Nobody has an unfair advantage, regardless of starting positions and the shape of the map it's always possible to win if you are skilled and intelligent enough.

Saying something is unfair because of biased opinions is subjective and should not be used to change a classic scheme.

It's suitable to say "I don't like it" instead of saying "It's unfair".

Personally I think being able to pile worms, suicide on worms, by any means necessary is what made the scheme so much fun and competitive, personally, I think Hysteria is not as much fun when you select worm, it also defeats the purpose and balance of random starting placements.

It's entirely possible to achieve an extremely high win percentage if you accept the scheme for what it is, plan well and play well enough.

Also, if you really wish to change the scheme used for the League, why not try and positively influence the opinions of everyone? Why not host Tournaments, Cups, play the scheme and share it and spread it, instead of using political character attacking tactics, in this case the scheme is the person being attacked.

Instead of being negative and hostile towards a classic scheme which is loved by many, you could keep your subjective opinion of being "unfair" to yourself, and instead proceed with positivity and enthusiasm.

FoxHound:
Hi TheKomodo, first of all I'm not sure if you are writing this to me or to Kaleu, the author of the scheme proposal. Your quote is not from my post, is from the scheme's description, written by Kaleu. I don't really play TUS leagues, at least until now, but I like competitive play and I am a really big fan of schemes. Hysteria is a scheme created by Run! in 2007 (after beta updates that allowed to play with only 1 second) and the league scheme is already a modified version of the original scheme which does not have Low Gravity in it.

Note that a rule or a new feature that appears in a game logic version can make a scheme more fun to play. When I say more "fun" sometimes this "fun" can be replaced by the word "pro" too, depending on the case. WxW is a very popular scheme that originated from a new rule in shopper that you should touch the two walls of the map before attacking. This rule and later some specialized maps turned the scheme different and often more challenging, still being a variation of the original shopper scheme (which is still played a lot). I believe that things evolve not only thinking in living beings, but society, humanity and, why not? Worms and schemes too. So, maybe hysteria will be played in different ways in the future or not. People had decided that Low Gravity makes hysteria more fun to play, increasing possibilities and beautiful shots. Also, a lot of people accepted and liked the rule "no telecow", Kaleu is not the only person defending this concept. Personaly I don't like when I join a game and the host does not talk about any rules of the scheme, then since you don't know if "telecow" is allowed or not, you teleport to use the worm rotation abuse tactic and then people get angry saying that "it was cow". However, I see Hysteria as an artillery game, like BnG, but different, exploring the hotkeys. It is a game about beautiful and hard shots, when you teleport behind someone that is winning by using complex technics of pressing hotkeys combinations very fast and then kills the worms of this person in a much easier way, for me is like playing WxW against someone who dominates the rope like no other, do not fell from the rope and did beautiful plays, then you use "Scales of Justice" and the health bars are the same again. I'm not against Scales of Justice, it is actually pretty good in some schemes, but not in others. I see Worm Rotation Abuse ("telecow") in a similar way, because making a pile of your worms to protect them from the worm rotation abuse can be a strategy, but I see it more as a (dangerous) workaround to deal with this frustrating situation that you cannot really do much about it. Telecow is already a reality by many hysteria players and now version 3.8 allowed some interesting features that can be very interesting in Hysteria (without adding any rules). I think Hysteria can be played the two ways, only the time will say how people will play this scheme.

About Kaleu, I know him and I can say that he is not really attacking Hysteria, because he really likes this scheme, not only that, he is a very good player of Hysteria and knows very well how TUS leagues work. Maybe the word "unfair" the way it is written on that description wasn't the best choice to express why he is proposing a new scheme to the actual version of Hysteria league one. He already played this scheme with me and with other players, and maybe this scheme will appear in tournaments, it is a very new scheme...

Just saying: I'm a big fan of Hysteria, even though I'm not very good playing it. For me Run! is a genius and was very inspired creating this scheme, because it could have flopped and did not receive much attention (another person could have used the new 1 second possibility more succesfully), but the set of weapons was very well thought and the scheme settings too (even the name is very good), balancing well the sudden death with the resources of the time without 3.8's actual "fractional round timer" feature that Kaleu is including in Selecsteria (the scheme proposal is not only about "telecow").

TheKomodo:
Great post, you are one of the few people who have ever discussed this as an opinion based on what you personally think is fun and competitive.

I am entirely happy to support a new scheme if it's presentation is positive, even if it's something that doesn't appeal to me as much as the existing scheme, if I can see it's something the majority wants and enjoys i'll adapt to it, however i'll still defend the scheme setup that I enjoy most. :)

But I cannot, in good faith support any presentation when it begins with a lie, which is what Kaleu(and others) have presented multiple times over the years.

Saying it's "unfair" is purely subjective, and is not the truth, and this immediate ignorance instantly makes me unsupportive, whether it's intentional or not, and to be honest if it's unintentional that makes it even worse because the person is not being aware of the entire situation and taking into account the feelings of others.

With that being said, if the scheme itself changes from Hysteria to Selecsteria, that won't bother me, because it changes the gameplay and strategy dramatically so it deserves a different name and will be considered an entirely different scheme, but if people try to change the actual settings of Hysteria itself to prevent piling and suicides by any means necessary, I'd have a major issue with that.

The only thing i'd like to challenge that you said:


--- Quote ---I see Worm Rotation Abuse ("telecow") in a similar way, because making a pile of your worms to protect them from the worm rotation abuse can be a strategy, but I see it more as a (dangerous) workaround to deal with this frustrating situation that you cannot really do much about it.
--- End quote ---

I can accept that statement, as you began with "I see" which means it's entirely your personal opinion, and also I understand there are people who will agree with it.

To you it's frustrating and feels like a workaround, to me it's exciting and feels completely normal.

However, what really puts me off Selecsteria is random placement, I believe myself this scheme needs to have manual worm placement because you have effectively taken away the very things which both balances extremely good/bad starting positions with random placements and makes the scheme fun in the way it was for people who enjoy having the choice of suiciding worms or trying to save them, sacrificing several worms because you have confidence in your abilities with 1 worm.

Do you want a faster game? Instantly plop all your worms, do you want a longer game? Avoid piling and hide tactically. Your opponent plops 3 of their worms instantly, be prepared for it, accept it and adapt! Your opponent doesn't sacrifice worms and wants to drag the match out, this is also fun for me! Having the choice is something that made this scheme interesting, Selecsteria is more boring to me because it has less choice this way and Hysteria feels more versatile and more adaptive that way to me.

Besides piling, sacrifice and suicide have been valid and much loved tactic in Worms for all kinds of schemes since day 1, so it surprises me people have such an issue with it in Hysteria when they are fine with it in Elite/Intermediate/Roper/Aerial/WxW etc. In Hysteria the only objective is to kill the enemies worms before they kill yours, how you get there should not matter.

Taking away those things ruin the scheme for me, and with selecsteria in my opinion the 1st turn will always have that slight advantage.

Like you, Hysteria is an artillery scheme to me, which was for around 15 years my favourite type of scheme, if you know me you know how much I love BnG, so honestly i'd eventually be fine with Selecsteria because the most important aspects are still your skill with weapon accuracy and quickly adapting to situations, but I will always look at it as an inferior, less adaptive and less versatile scheme than Hysteria.

For example, i'd be more than happy to stream and commentate on Selecsteria Tournaments, possibly even donate a little cash to an already existing prizepool, to see multiple people get involved and really give it a good test.

TheWalrus:
I mean, if you want less strategy and unfair metrics, selectsteria sounds great.

You've made the scheme more unfair than it previously was, fractional round timer makes it even more unbalanced.

I think people can have fun with this new scheme and I hope they do, but you've introduced no new 'fairness' here.

More first turn worm plops and harder to make a comeback once at a deficit, not to mention if you get worm placements at bottom and your opponent on top, you are basically boned.

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