The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Cups and Tournaments => Cups and Tournaments Comments => Topic started by: Lancelot on March 28, 2021, 08:11 AM
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I want to see enough players here who want to fight.
And I will wait
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Okay, I'm in, but what is a cup? This site doesn't even explain it (https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/basic-info/), it assumes you already know what a cup is. What's the difference between a tournament and a cup?
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There are pretty much the same except that a cup is consist of group stage and knockout stage. A tournament is only the knockout stage. TUS started with cups which allowed members to play their games on whatever date/time they agreed on. (within the deadline date of course)
Tournaments got added later to be like Worm Olympics tournaments. That is when every player in #AG is ready to go so there won't be any need to arrange date/time for their games. That was the initial idea and it worked for some time. But after that when the inactivity of players increased, some moderators allowed their players to arrange time/date for their tournament games.
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It seemed to me that only a lazy or a complete beginner does not know the difference between a cup and a tournament. Deadcode question surprised me lol
Speaking specifically about this cup, i will say more - in the coming months, I will not limit the games in groups by time.
So I will expect the players to be as punctual as possible regarding their matches in groups. and then to the playoffs
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It seemed to me that only a lazy or a complete beginner does not know the difference between a cup and a tournament. Deadcode question surprised me lol
He's right thought. The Cups help page isn't clear for newcomers. When I coded the cups, members were used to forum-based cups that is posting cup results via cup thread on forums.
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It seemed to me that only a lazy or a complete beginner does not know the difference between a cup and a tournament. Deadcode question surprised me lol
He's right thought. The Cups help page isn't clear for newcomers. When I coded the cups, members were used to forum-based cups that is posting cup results via cup thread on forums.
If you look in more detail, the TUS site as a whole is not understandable for beginners.
I can't speak for the English-speaking audience of players, but here, the Russian-speaking audience, when faced with the TUS site, asks a lot of questions.
I think a video tour of the TUS site could solve a lot of issues. Maybe I can do this if I figure it out myself :D
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Sorry, but I changed my mind about participating. I won't play Worms now until the fall. Up to CWT
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Sorry, but I changed my mind about participating. I won't play Worms now until the fall. Up to CWT
where to find logic in your words when you write that you will not play until autumn, but register for the cup
And yes, I almost forgot, you owe me one tus hysteria game :D
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Looks like this could be a highly competitive finale! I'd like to stream the Playoffs from the Quarters onwards.
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Looks like this could be a highly competitive finale! I'd like to stream the Playoffs from the Quarters onwards.
This is really cool, I hope it will.
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btw the cup will start when there are 16 players
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Pairs ready. hf gl. glory and honor
Keep in mind that this is not a league scheme.
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I still don't understand how a TUS cup works. It's not explained anywhere on TUS, so how does anyone know?
Is there a limit to how many games I'm supposed to play with each opponent in my group? TUS doesn't seem to enforce any. It let Syc and me report our games individually without giving us any complaint, but apparently it's not supposed to be done that way? Lancelot deleted them and asked me to re-upload, which I did. Which does make sense in retrospect, because this is a Bo3 cup. But why did the system let us upload as 3 separate matches then?
And where/when are we supposed to organize to set up these games? Some of those people I can communicate with on Discord, but others I have no idea how to contact besides sending them PMs on TUS.
How long does this stage last? How many stages are there? And what do the two numbers separated by a "/" in the "Won" column mean? It's all a mystery, and TUS doesn't explain it anywhere, except in a very haphazard, piecemeal way.
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I still don't understand how a TUS cup works. It's not explained anywhere on TUS, so how does anyone know?
Is there a limit to how many games I'm supposed to play with each opponent in my group? TUS doesn't seem to enforce any. It let Syc and me report our games individually without giving us any complaint, but apparently it's not supposed to be done that way? Lancelot deleted them and asked me to re-upload, which I did. Which does make sense in retrospect, because this is a Bo3 cup. But why did the system let us upload as 3 separate matches then?
And where/when are we supposed to organize to set up these games? Some of those people I can communicate with on Discord, but others I have no idea how to contact besides sending them PMs on TUS.
How long does this stage last? How many stages are there? And what do the two numbers separated by a "/" in the "Won" column mean? It's all a mystery, and TUS doesn't explain it anywhere, except in a very haphazard, piecemeal way.
For all my time that I create cup competitions, I have created them following the example of other cups.
And I'm learning from other moderators.
Not always successful, sometimes making mistakes, but learning from them.
I can’t say anything about the innovations, because I don’t know what they are for.
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What are the two numbers in the "won" column? Is it number of players beat followed by the number of games won?
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What are the two numbers in the "won" column? Is it number of players beat followed by the number of games won?
I think the first number refers to games the player won and the number after slash is the amount of rounds won. But thats just a guess
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What are the two numbers in the "won" column? Is it number of players beat followed by the number of games won?
I think the first number refers to games the player won and the number after slash is the amount of rounds won. But thats just a guess
Yes, that is right. I looked at different games in other cups and found confirmation of this
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Is it legal to use the wrong scheme?
I agreed to play with Deadcode, but at the last moment before the game he said that he would use his own scheme, because he didn't like the cup scheme. I was against this, but Deadcode insisted and said that if his scheme was not, he would not play.
Okay, I agreed to his scheme, because I have been waiting for this game for a long time.
Not to say that I recently enjoyed the game in general, it was cool, but I played as insecurely as possible, since I could not know the full characteristics of this scheme - this is confusing.
I have no complaints about the game and its rusults (after all, I agreed, albeit under pressure), let it stay.
I don't mind if the players use a different scheme, if they both absolutely agree, but in our case I will not say that I agreed of my own free will, and this is a little unpleasant.
[Deadcode] to be specific, I downloaded the scheme, but it sucks, so we'll play with the WL scheme
[Deadcode] longbow = 22 + 22
[Deadcode] and cheats disabled
[Deadcode] er, glitches I mean
[SIBASA`] you cannot play another scheme (
[Deadcode] sure I can :) and I did already, with Syc
[Deadcode] just don't make a big deal about it
[SIBASA`] I would like to play according to the cup scheme
[Deadcode] If you're going to insist, I'll just quit the cup
[Deadcode] Lancelot's posted scheme is garbage
[SIBASA`] I think you need to play according to the scheme that was given. These are the rules
[Deadcode] The scheme is garbage. If we have to do that, I would rather just quit the cup
[Deadcode] So let's bend the rules a bit, and make it enjoyable.
[Deadcode] and fair.
[SIBASA`] You entered the cup by agreeing to the rules and scheme
[Deadcode] I didn't notice at the time that he insisted on a certain scheme.
[Deadcode] if I had, I would have discussed it before joining
[Deadcode] and if he had not agreed on changing it, I wouldn't have joined
[Deadcode] but when I noticed, I had already joined
[SIBASA`] okay ... let's play, but mind you, I'm not happy))
[Deadcode] If you want me to quit the cup, go ahead and be stubborn about this, and I will quit it
[Deadcode] ok thanks
[Deadcode] noted
[Deadcode] if Lancelot makes a big deal about this later on, I'll be sure to tell him you protested
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Well, I did not expect you to do this (hence my last line in that log quote), and I would have chosen my words with more tact had I known. But okay, since you insist, let's do this.
Yes, I forgot to check if there was a scheme prescribed by this cup before joining it. Had I had the presence of mind to check for a scheme before joining, I would have brought up the issue with Lancelot, and asked him to change the scheme.
But I only realized many days later, after the cup had already begun and I was just about to start my match with Syc, and when I looked at that scheme, I was repelled. Not only is it an extreme insult to my hard work with v3.8 to not include any glitch-disabling v3.8 features in this cup's scheme, and yet still say "standart team17 rules (no knocking, no roofing)" [sic], as if WA v3.8 doesn't even exist, but it also has the old-style 50+50 hp damage Longbows, which are absolutely terrible. They give anybody an easy, free 100 points of damage, which is totally unfair and unbalanced, and strongly discourages using the Longbow in creative ways. In contrast, every single detail about the WormsLeague T17 scheme has been carefully honed by huge fans of the scheme.
So yes, if Lancelot does insist that it's completely illegal to use a different scheme, I will have no interest in participating in this cup. Because of that, up until this point I chose not to confront Lancelot about it because if he insisted that his chosen scheme must be the one used, then I would not have even got a chance to begin playing the cup, and would've had to quit immediately. But at least now, if he still decides not to allow it, I will have had a chance to experience it at least a little before having to leave. I was really hoping it would just go unnoticed, and then next time a cup was created I could bring up the issue. But it appears SIBASA was not on the same page. (Frankly, I hadn't dismissed the possibility that Lancelot had already noticed I didn't use the provided scheme in my games with Syc, and had chosen to pretend he hadn't noticed. But even if that was the case, he has no choice but to say something about it now.) So now it's become a distinctly unpleasant situation with the potential to become quite a bit more unpleasant.
Assuming this *is* okayed, I do recommend that everybody else use the same T17 scheme I've been using, from now on, in this cup: https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-3891/ But that is just my recommendation, and what turns out to be done is not up to me to decide.
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The cup's scheme says "Team17" and the description does not point out it have any difference from standard one. Could a player assume the used scheme is the standard one? Of course. Personally i would not even think of downloading a cup's scheme if there are no signs of diffenence.
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You can't make anybody happy anymore these days.
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So, I read your messages here and realized that I had already managed to displease someone and insult someone by the presence of an old version of the cup scheme. It sounds like nonsense, but I'll write about this below.
Where did this scheme come from? This is an old version of the league scheme.
It is more to my liking and I think it is more dynamic in terms of combat actions on the map. SD weapons drop more balanced here than in the new league scheme. In almost any cr8, you can take a weapon that can do something with the enemy. I will exclude from the list weapons like cluster grenades, a mortar, which need to be strengthened in terms of damage, otherwise it is useless in this scheme. The scheme currently being played in the league is more balanced in terms of low power weapons and a lot of trash in crates. It is considered an incredible success to pull the SD weapon out of the box. I will add another possibly unstable drop of SD weapons - three or four in a row. This fact does not fit with the balance, right? Plus, I will also say that the share of luck in the scheme plays a greater role than in the cup scheme. When one collects good boxes, the other collects trash, and this plays a decisive role. But then it turns out that the garbage weapon needs to be changed in terms of strength.
Let's move on to the alleged "insult". Nobody forced you to enter the cup by force. Once you've signed up, play by the rules. I personally do not like the T17 league scheme, but this is not a reason for me to play the league according to a different scheme, because I am capricious for someone, and do not obey the system. The league scheme is shit. I say this officially. And the percentages don't interest me. I look at gaming experience and real facts, not statistics and theories. I'm not even saying that some of you know the game so well that you don't make mistakes in moves. Some, like the "developers", can use their written tricks to their advantage. This option may well be left as a theory. But I play the league even if I don't like the league's scheme. Because I like the whole circuit. And the whims of someone who wants to go against the system, I will not take seriously. It's very childish.
I lost my game in the group yesterday. In the third round, I came across an arsenal that comes across in the league scheme, and with which I could not resist an opponent who had more serious weapons. And this extra firewood threw into the fire of hatred for the league scheme.
I will not ask you to delete your game (Deadcode and Sibasa), because both opponents agreed and played. But the last time I warn each of the participants: follow the rules and play for fun. After all, this is a game for numbers, not a game for life or material values. If there are massive sabotages of games in the group not according to the scheme that I fixed in the cup page, I will simply ask the moderator to remove the cup. I will have reasons for this and possible conflicts that I will not support and incite. I know how to act radically, within the framework that is available to me. Do not lead to sin.
hf
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Deadcode, if you played cup games not according to the scheme indicated, I have the right to delete your games, since they were played in a different scheme. I would advise you to replay all the games with whom you played in the band without unnecessary emotions. In any other case, if you refuse to change the scheme, then the games will not be counted again.
added:
I looked at all the reports with Deadcode, and since all the games were not played on the cup scheme, I have a reason to delete all games where he used the wrong scheme.
added 2:
I have no personal conflicts with anyone, and will not be in the future. But enough time has passed from the start of registration to the start of the draw to make any adjustments to the scheme or rules. To be honest, I listened to each of the players without any problems regarding the scheme or any other suggestions for improving the gameplay. For me, as a cup moderator and one of the T17 community admins, it is interesting to see new variations of the scheme that could be more balanced. And I will definitely play the version of Deadcode with my guys from the T17 community. But the cup has already started, games have been played, and I have no right to delete these games. I am acting within the rules. And I find it rather stupid and incompetent to create very controversial and emotionally acute situations after the gameplay draw.
At the moment, I turned to Deadcode in order to prevent further conflicts.
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Lancelot, if you want to delete my games, go ahead. I will have no further interest in playing this cup if you do though, so go ahead and delete me from the roster while you're at it. I think Syc will want the same, as he agreed with me about the scheme you attached to the cup.
Orrrr you could just let us play using this better scheme. It's not a big deal, right? Would you rather have a fun cup where we get to play using a scheme we don't hate, or a rigid by-the-book cup in which some players have quit due to said rigidity? I do ask that I continue to be allowed to play using my preferred scheme though, please. And I'm not asking for any other of the rules to be bent, only that we be allowed to use this scheme (the one I've played 6 cup rounds on already) instead of the one attached to the cup.
Edit: I see you deleted the games anyway. Okay then, go ahead and delete me from the roster, I have no interest in playing this cup or any future cup (or event of any kind) that you host.
You could still redeem this, though. Allow me to re-upload the same games as already played and continue to play with that scheme instead of the one attached to the cup.
If anyone wants to watch the currently-deleted games who hasn't already downloaded them:
2021-04-13 06.28.13 [Online Round 1] Syc, @Deadcode.WAgame (https://kingbird.myphotos.cc/tus-cup-1109/Deadcode-Syc/2021-04-13%2006.28.13%20%5BOnline%20Round%201%5D%20Syc%2C%20%40Deadcode.WAgame)
2021-04-13 07.10.05 [Online Round 2] Syc, @Deadcode.WAgame (https://kingbird.myphotos.cc/tus-cup-1109/Deadcode-Syc/2021-04-13%2007.10.05%20%5BOnline%20Round%202%5D%20Syc%2C%20%40Deadcode.WAgame)
2021-04-13 07.36.52 [Online Round 3] Syc, @Deadcode.WAgame (https://kingbird.myphotos.cc/tus-cup-1109/Deadcode-Syc/2021-04-13%2007.36.52%20%5BOnline%20Round%203%5D%20Syc%2C%20%40Deadcode.WAgame)
2021-04-16 19.58.28 [Online Round 1] @Deadcode, SIBASA`.WAgame (https://kingbird.myphotos.cc/tus-cup-1109/Deadcode-SIBASA/2021-04-16%2019.58.28%20%5BOnline%20Round%201%5D%20%40Deadcode%2C%20SIBASA%60.WAgame)
2021-04-16 20.30.38 [Online Round 2] @Deadcode, SIBASA`.WAgame (https://kingbird.myphotos.cc/tus-cup-1109/Deadcode-SIBASA/2021-04-16%2020.30.38%20%5BOnline%20Round%202%5D%20%40Deadcode%2C%20SIBASA%60.WAgame)
2021-04-16 20.59.51 [Online Round 3] @Deadcode, SIBASA`.WAgame (https://kingbird.myphotos.cc/tus-cup-1109/Deadcode-SIBASA/2021-04-16%2020.59.51%20%5BOnline%20Round%203%5D%20%40Deadcode%2C%20SIBASA%60.WAgame)
Let's move on to the alleged "insult". Nobody forced you to enter the cup by force. Once you've signed up, play by the rules. I personally do not like the T17 league scheme, but this is not a reason for me to play the league according to a different scheme, because I am capricious for someone, and do not obey the system. The league scheme is shit. I say this officially. And the percentages don't interest me. I look at gaming experience and real facts, not statistics and theories. I'm not even saying that some of you know the game so well that you don't make mistakes in moves. Some, like the "developers", can use their written tricks to their advantage. This option may well be left as a theory. But I play the league even if I don't like the league's scheme. Because I like the whole circuit. And the whims of someone who wants to go against the system, I will not take seriously. It's very childish.
Aaand you didn't even address the actual issue. Your cup scheme doesn't have glitches disabled, as is possible in the WA v3.8+ scheme format. I have no interest in manually enforcing these as "rules" (no rope knocking, no roofing, no skipwalking) just to adhere to a rigid doctrine about using the precise scheme attached to the cup, especially after it was my own hard work along with CyberShadow's that made it possible to have them enforced automatically by the game. You also didn't address the issue about the Longbow damage. (There are also other things I didn't mention, like the BlowTorch and Drill power, which are best set to 3 stars, but in your cup scheme are 5 stars.) All you did was talk about aspects of the scheme I have no particular quarrel with (but nevertheless still prefer them being as they are in the WL scheme).
Note that manually enforcing no-rope-knocking, as a rule instead of a scheme setting, is actually really terrible, because rope knucking, where you swing your worm to fall through a worm that's blocking a passageway, into the other side, is a very legitimate move, and without rope knocking being disabled by the game itself, can't be done without risking breaking the no-rope-knocking rule. (Unless you play the game in #PartyTime or via wa:// URL.)
And I would like to point out that the WormsLeague T17 scheme is not this "T17 league scheme" you talk about being shit. The WormsLeague scheme was created along with WL on 2020-09-05. This year I've been playing T17s with almost exactly the same WL scheme, but fine tuned a bit; the banana crate probability is down a notch, the Longbow damage is changed from 15+15 to 22+22, and a slight bug in the set of disabled glitches has been fixed. Otherwise it's the same as the WL Season 1 scheme.
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I have to agree that it's pretty silly to delete games if both players agreed on the scheme.
I think it was just an oversight on our part to not look at the scheme before registering. It's understandable that since you created the cup you want everyone to follow your rules, so I think it's probably best for everyone if you remove us from the roster since we don't want to play with the scheme you've provided.
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Ok, you can upload the games against Syc, but you have to rematch games with SIBASA, because he didn't agree with your choice.
I can replace the cup scheme and set HHC Team17 scheme version.
Since, in my opinion, it is more balanced than the cup one.
But your scheme will still not be correct, Deadcode. Use a cup scheme to play in this cup, or do not play at all.
This is my last word. I replaced the scheme with a more bearable one.
You need to play cup games according to the HHC scheme, or not play at all.
It doesn't matter to me who you are, a developer, a simple player or the Lord God
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I appeal to all the participants of the cup. In the following games, use scheme 223 (Team17 by HHC) for cup games. The cup layout has been updated. Keep in mind.
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Ok, you can upload the games against Syc,
Um, thanks, but...
but you have to rematch games with SIBASA, because he didn't agree with your choice.
That is not what happened. SIBASA agreed to the scheme, under protest. He was free to choose not to agree, at which point I would've exercised my choice as well, to leave the cup. It's all there in the log file he quoted.
Furthermore, I already made my position clear. If forced to play on a scheme with the problems I've described your scheme had, I would choose to leave the cup.
I can replace the cup scheme and set HHC Team17 scheme version.
Since, in my opinion, it is more balanced than the cup one.
All you've done is replace the bad scheme with an even older bad scheme that has every single one of the problems I highlighted above. Did you read anything I wrote?
- No WA v3.8+ scheme options
- Rope knocking is not disabled
- no glitches are disabled
- Longbow is set to 50+50 damage
- BlowTorch and Drill are set to 5 stars
This is my last word. I replaced the scheme with a more bearable one.
You need to play cup games according to the HHC scheme, or not play at all.
Please delete Syc and me from the roster, already. I've made my position clear.
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Ok, you can upload the games against Syc,
Um, thanks, but...
but you have to rematch games with SIBASA, because he didn't agree with your choice.
That is not what happened. SIBASA agreed to the scheme, under protest. He was free to choose not to agree, at which point I would've exercised my choice as well, to leave the cup. It's all there in the log file he quoted.
I can replace the cup scheme and set HHC Team17 scheme version.
Since, in my opinion, it is more balanced than the cup one.
All you've done is replace the bad scheme with an even older bad scheme that has every single one of the problems I highlighted above. Did you read anything I wrote?
- No WA v3.8+ scheme options
- Rope knocking is not disabled
- no glitches are disabled
- Longbow is set to 50+50 damage
- BlowTorch and Drill are set to 5 stars
This is my last word. I replaced the scheme with a more bearable one.
You need to play cup games according to the HHC scheme, or not play at all.
Please delete Syc and me from the roster, already. I've made my position clear.
Do you want to play by your own rules? Create your own cups and don't fool people's heads. I took a step to revive the local community of players a little - and there will always be those who do not like it. You are like one of those people.
I can't delete you, but I can find a replacement, don't worry. I will find adequate people to play, and not snot in the comments, while adding my services to the community of players
Furthermore, I already made my position clear. If forced to play on a scheme with the problems I've described your scheme had, I would choose to leave the cup.
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Ok, you can upload the games against Syc,
Um, thanks, but...
but you have to rematch games with SIBASA, because he didn't agree with your choice.
That is not what happened. SIBASA agreed to the scheme, under protest. He was free to choose not to agree, at which point I would've exercised my choice as well, to leave the cup. It's all there in the log file he quoted.
I can replace the cup scheme and set HHC Team17 scheme version.
Since, in my opinion, it is more balanced than the cup one.
All you've done is replace the bad scheme with an even older bad scheme that has every single one of the problems I highlighted above. Did you read anything I wrote?
- No WA v3.8+ scheme options
- Rope knocking is not disabled
- no glitches are disabled
- Longbow is set to 50+50 damage
- BlowTorch and Drill are set to 5 stars
This is my last word. I replaced the scheme with a more bearable one.
You need to play cup games according to the HHC scheme, or not play at all.
Please delete Syc and me from the roster, already. I've made my position clear.
Do you want to play by your own rules? Create your own cups and don't fool people's heads. I took a step to revive the local community of players a little - and there will always be those who do not like it. You are like one of those people.
I can't delete you, but I can find a replacement, don't worry. I will find adequate people to play, and not snot in the comments, while adding my services to the community of players
Furthermore, I already made my position clear. If forced to play on a scheme with the problems I've described your scheme had, I would choose to leave the cup.
:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :( :(
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I can't delete you, but I can find a replacement, don't worry.
Are you saying you have a way to upload somebody else's replays to the cup under my name?
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Can't you just have SIBASA and Mega`Adnan go through to the next round?
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I can't delete you, but I can find a replacement, don't worry.
Are you saying you have a way to upload somebody else's replays to the cup under my name?
A cup player have to be replaced with someone else. No way to just remove him.
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I have no personal conflicts with anyone, and will not be in the future. But enough time has passed from the start of registration to the start of the draw to make any adjustments to the scheme or rules. To be honest, I listened to each of the players without any problems regarding the scheme or any other suggestions for improving the gameplay. For me, as a cup moderator and one of the T17 community admins, it is interesting to see new variations of the scheme that could be more balanced. And I will definitely play the version of Deadcode with my guys from the T17 community. But the cup has already started, games have been played, and I have no right to delete these games. I am acting within the rules. And I find it rather stupid and incompetent to create very controversial and emotionally acute situations after the gameplay draw.
Like little children you behave together with Syc. Agree with everything, and when the time comes to play, you openly sabotage the game, in addition, connect your credibility as a developer. I don’t know how to act as dirty as possible in this situation.
Even more surprise arose when, when asked to play by the rules, I began to listen to protests and accusations against me. I have no words
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I signed up to this cup to have fun. I thought, "Wow, a tournament-type thing focused on the scheme I most love. I'd be a fool to miss this." I didn't sign up right after finding out about it, because I didn't know what a cup was, but after a few days figured, well, it can't be that bad, can it? There was no explanation of what a cup was, but I signed up anyway, because how could I miss an event like this.
As explained earlier, it didn't even occur to me that the cup would have a prescribed scheme, let alone to check that scheme and make sure I'm okay with it. So yeah, I made a mistake. But the only other time I ever took part in events on TUS were the recent Island T17 tournaments hosted by Senator. And those had a prescribed scheme too, but it was a scheme almost exactly the same as the WormsLeague T17 scheme. Since then, I've played hundreds of T17 matches with that scheme, and grown to love it and consider it the definitive version of the scheme. So maybe I became so used to it that I forgot about even the possibility of T17 being played any other way.
So then when I found out, just before I was about to play my cup match against Syc, that the cup had a prescribed scheme, and it had some major things wrong with it in my eyes, including the absence of v3.8+ settings which felt like a spit in the face to me, I had to either make a quick decision or delay playing my games with Syc (and probably not play them at all, because I'd most likely have to leave the cup, as I didn't expect Lancelot to agree to change the scheme at my request after the cup had already started). It seemed like a really silly reason to delay/cancel playing our match for, so I made the decision to play with the scheme I love, not the (barbaric, in my eyes) scheme that the cup prescribed.
So yeah, I joined the cup for fun, what a novel idea? Playing with its prescribed scheme would not be fun for me. Had I known before signing up, I wouldn't have signed up. Given that I was already signed up, what choice did I have? Lancelot, you expect me to stay and play on this scheme that I not only hate, but feels like a spit in the face to me, just for some misguided sense of honor? No, the most graceful thing to do here is leave the cup, which I have done as best I can.
Also, Lancelot, if you had stuck to your guns, and kept the exact scheme you originally attached to the cup without change, at least I could respect your integrity in some way for that. But your credibility as a mod dropped through the floor when you changed the scheme... for no reason. It still had all the things wrong with it that I had explained, so why did you do it?
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A cup player have to be replaced with someone else. No way to just remove him.
Thanks for the information, that does sound reasonable enough.
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I signed up to this cup to have fun. I thought, "Wow, a tournament-type thing focused on the scheme I most love. I'd be a fool to miss this." I didn't sign up right after finding out about it, because I didn't know what a cup was, but after a few days figured, well, it can't be that bad, can it? There was no explanation of what a cup was, but I signed up anyway, because how could I miss an event like this.
As explained earlier, it didn't even occur to me that the cup would have a prescribed scheme, let alone to check that scheme and make sure I'm okay with it. So yeah, I made a mistake. But the only other time I ever took part in events on TUS were the recent Island T17 tournaments hosted by Senator. And those had a prescribed scheme too, but it was a scheme almost exactly the same as the WormsLeague T17 scheme. Since then, I've played hundreds of T17 matches with that scheme, and grown to love it and consider it the definitive version of the scheme. So maybe I became so used to it that I forgot about even the possibility of T17 being played any other way.
So then when I found out, just before I was about to play my cup match against Syc, that the cup had a prescribed scheme, and it had some major things wrong with it in my eyes, including the absence of v3.8+ settings which felt like a spit in the face to me, I had to either make a quick decision or delay playing my games with Syc (and probably not play them at all, because I'd most likely have to leave the cup, as I didn't expect Lancelot to agree to change the scheme at my request after the cup had already started). It seemed like a really silly reason to delay/cancel playing our match for, so I made the decision to play with the scheme I love, not the (barbaric, in my eyes) scheme that the cup prescribed.
So yeah, I joined the cup for fun, what a novel idea? Playing with its prescribed scheme would not be fun for me. Had I known before signing up, I wouldn't have signed up. Given that I was already signed up, what choice did I have? Lancelot, you expect me to stay and play on this scheme that I not only hate, but feels like a spit in the face to me, just for some misguided sense of honor? No, the most graceful thing to do here is leave the cup, which I have done as best I can.
Also, Lancelot, if you had stuck to your guns, and kept the exact scheme you originally attached to the cup without change, at least I could respect your integrity in some way for that. But your credibility as a mod dropped through the floor when you changed the scheme... for no reason. It still had all the things wrong with it that I had explained, so why did you do it?
From all your words, I did not see any arguments in your version of the scheme. Glitch bans and improved damage for digging tools are not a good reason to change the scheme. All the rest can be done by agreement orally.
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From all your words, I did not see any arguments in your version of the scheme. Glitch bans and improved damage for digging tools are not a good reason to change the scheme. All the rest can be done by agreement orally.
LOL, I feel you are digging your own grave with that comment. I didn't think this was either the time or the place to discuss the merits of the scheme in detail, but I absolutely did discuss it a little. What do you call this:
but it also has the old-style 50+50 hp damage Longbows, which are absolutely terrible. They give anybody an easy, free 100 points of damage, which is totally unfair and unbalanced, and strongly discourages using the Longbow in creative ways.
Your cup scheme doesn't have glitches disabled, as is possible in the WA v3.8+ scheme format. I have no interest in manually enforcing these as "rules" (no rope knocking, no roofing, no skipwalking) just to adhere to a rigid doctrine about using the precise scheme attached to the cup, especially after it was my own hard work along with CyberShadow's that made it possible to have them enforced automatically by the game.
Note that manually enforcing no-rope-knocking, as a rule instead of a scheme setting, is actually really terrible, because rope knucking, where you swing your worm to fall through a worm that's blocking a passageway, into the other side, is a very legitimate move, and without rope knocking being disabled by the game itself, can't be done without risking breaking the no-rope-knocking rule. (Unless you play the game in #PartyTime or via wa:// URL.)
So again I ask, have you read anything that I have written?
But sure, if you want me to go into more detail, okay.
It's very important to have clearly defined rules. If the rules must be enforced manually by the players, they'd better be very clear, so that there is no room for argument or disagreement. So to begin with, the fact that all you said was "- standart team17 rules (no knocking, no roofing)", implying there are more rules than that, but there's no need to bother to state them because "everyone knows" what they are? That's a recipe for ambiguity and disagreements. (For example, is skipwalking allowed? Unclear.) But the game can now enforce all of the "standard" Team17 rules automatically, making them no longer rules, just scheme settings. The Team17 scheme can basically be played with "no rules" now. And that is always better. With no need to focus on hoping that the other player will have the same interpretation of the rules as you do, the focus can instead be on playing the best you can, using the best strategy, best hand-eye coordination, etc., freeing up brain cells from the task of second-guessing your own moves due to worry about what the other player will think. And I have personally found that I play much better when I don't have to worry about player-enforced rules.
As for the blowtorch, the 5 star version of it is absolutely terrible. It throws a worm it hits far away on the first shot, destroying the delicate and wonderful physics of how it works at 3 stars of power, where you can precisely control how much damage you do and how far you push the worm. As for the drill, there's a lot of luck with it, but with experience, you can have an idea of what it's likely to do, and plan accordingly. Changing the power of it throws away all of that practice and experience. I've hardly ever used it at 5 stars of power, but I'm guessing it'd be overpowered and either make it too easy to plop a worm, or throw off a planned plop by throwing the worm too hard against a wall, causing it to bounce back.
As for the longbow, I already explained that in enough detail; see above.
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Everyone who plays here knows the usual rules. Of course, there are exceptions in the form of newbies, but that's a different matter.
It makes no sense to discuss the merits of the versions of the schemes for one simple reason - the draw took place. Your mistake is that you did not offer your option in advance. That's all. And the fact that the schemes are signed the same is not only mine. More than 10 types of schemes are signed in the same way.
In your case, it is worth proposing the scheme as a substitute in the league. I did not support your option for one good reason - because I studied the probability of weapon dropping and found it out of balance. In the league scheme, the bow also has 50 damage per shot. Glitches can be conditionally prohibited, as they did before.
The increased damage from digging tools only confuses players who are used to the old damage indicators.
If I am not convinced in my words, you can simply say that it is necessary to innovate in the league or cup games in a timely manner, and not create a mess by provoking conflicts
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Your words do not make much sense. There is a significant language barrier here; perhaps that's why you've failed to understand so much that I have said, and perhaps there are some things you've tried to say which I've failed to understand. It might be better if you replied in your native language, and I ran it through Google Translator to try to figure out what you really meant, further using a dictionary and manual translation if there's ambiguity. (I mean that in full seriousness.)
Everyone who plays here knows the usual rules. Of course, there are exceptions in the form of newbies, but that's a different matter.
I just explained why that's a terrible system. It's much better to eliminate all the ambiguity. And the game makes that possible now. There's no excuse not to use this feature.
It makes no sense to discuss the merits of the versions of the schemes for one simple reason - the draw took place.
The... "draw"? What do you mean?
Your mistake is that you did not offer your option in advance. That's all.
I gave SIBASA the choice of whether to agree with the scheme or not. And I honestly didn't expect him to be so opposed to the idea. Nevertheless he was free to choose, and he chose to agree to it.
And the fact that the schemes are signed the same is not only mine. More than 10 types of schemes are signed in the same way.
"Signed"? What are you talking about here? I'm not sure I understand. But if you mean a scheme attached to a cup or tournament, I already explained I did not know about it when I signed up, and only found out when my match with Syc was about to start. So how does this have any relevance to the issue at hand?
In your case, it is worth proposing the scheme as a substitute in the league. I did not support your option for one good reason - because I studied the probability of weapon dropping and found it out of balance. In the league scheme, the bow also has 50 damage per shot.
Truly I wouldn't mind much if you took my scheme, and changed its weapon probabilities to suit your liking. That is the thing I care least about. Have you read anything I've written? I've made it clear again and again what I most dislike in your scheme, and it's not the crate probabilities.
Heck, if I'd have known you cared so much about crate probabilities, I would have copied your crate probabilities into my scheme myself before playing the cup games with Syc and SIBASA.
Glitches can be conditionally prohibited, as they did before.
"Conditionally prohibited"? Huh? As "they" did? Who's they? I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. Language barrier...
The increased damage from digging tools only confuses players who are used to the old damage indicators.
You're... making my own point for me. The increased damage of digging tools in your scheme is completely different from what I've been accustomed to for 20 years.
I never should have posted the WormNET #Team17League scheme translated from WormNET protocol into a .WSC file. Back when I did it, I meant it to be only for historical interest and academic reasons. I didn't mean for people to use that scheme. Before I posted that, everybody played T17 with blowtorch and drill set to 3 stars of power. Ever since then, it seems people have treated the #Team17League scheme as being sacred and have stuck with its bad settings. Which makes no sense whatsoever, because as far as I've heard, the Team17 scheme underwent many changes while the WormNET leagues were still up. The one posted is only the final form it was in before the leagues were taken offline in 2000. (And I can only know about that secondhand, as I started playing Worms Armageddon in October 2000, and started playing on WormNET about a month later, so by the time I came on the scene, the leagues were already down.)
If I am not convinced in my words,
You're not sure if you're convinced by your own words? Language barrier.
you can simply say that it is necessary to innovate in the league or cup games in a timely manner, and not create a mess by provoking conflicts
"Provoking conflicts"? I tried as hard as I possibly could (short of playing with your scheme, which was never an option) to not provoke anything. SIBASA was not on the same page, and chose to turn this into a fully provoked conflict.
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The... "draw"? What do you mean?
I meant that the cup has started. The translator fails to keep the whole meaning of my words
I gave SIBASA the choice of whether to agree with the scheme or not. He was free to choose, and he chose to agree to it.
He told me on discord that he had to agree. And it sounded not voluntary, but under pressure
"Signed"? What are you talking about here? I honestly have no idea.
I meant the same names of schemes in the list
Truly I wouldn't mind much if you took my scheme, and changed its weapon probabilities to suit your liking. That is the thing I care least about. Have you read anything I've written? I've made it clear again and again what I most dislike in your scheme, and it's not the crate probabilities.
I'm more worried about this than increased damage from digging tools or glitch bans
Because the balance of the main weapon list is the same, with rare exceptions. If you look at the fact, for example, the mole and dynamite weapons are weapons of different strength.
"Conditionally prohibited"? Huh? As "they" did? Who's they? I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. Language barrier...
I meant that the fact that glitches and walking on the ceiling can not be used without applying the latest innovations
You're... making my own point for me. The increased damage of digging tools in your scheme is completely different from what I've been accustomed to for 20 years.
I never should have posted the WormNET #Team17League scheme translated from WormNET protocol into a .WSC file. Back when I did it, I meant it to be only for historical interest and academic reasons. I didn't mean for people to use that scheme. Before I posted that, everybody played T17 with blowtorch and drill set to 3 stars of power. Ever since then, it seems people have treated the #Team17League scheme as being sacred and have stuck with its bad settings. Which makes no sense whatsoever, because as far as I've heard, the Team17 scheme underwent many changes while the WormNET leagues were still up. The one posted is only the final form it was in before the leagues were taken offline in 2000. (And I can only know about that secondhand, as I started playing Worms Armageddon in October 2000, and started playing on WormNET about a month later, so by the time I came on the scene, the leagues were already down.)
To be honest, I don't know which version of the scheme was used in the past. I repeat my words - you need to seriously talk about this using the forum. I don't mind anything that could be better. I just do everything within the rules
You're not sure if you're convinced by your own words? Language barrier.
If my words were not enough, I will add that ...
"Provoking conflicts"? I tried as hard as I possibly could (short of playing with your scheme, which was never an option) to not provoke anything. SIBASA was not on the same page, and chose to turn this into a fully provoked conflict.
A belated attempt to fix everything. You had a week and a half before the draw to check the scheme and submit your suggestions. I see no point in this dispute now. The Cup is already in the group stage and some games have already been played
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I gave SIBASA the choice of whether to agree with the scheme or not. He was free to choose, and he chose to agree to it.
He told me on discord that he had to agree. And it sounded not voluntary, but under pressure
Well yes, obviously it was under pressure, but it's not like I was holding a gun to his head or anything. And I had already played 9 Team17 games with SIBASA before using that exact scheme, and he spectated an additional 2 that I played with Chicken23, so it's not like he was unfamiliar with the scheme itself. He was free to choose to disagree with the scheme choice, agree with the scheme choice, or delay our match until having a chance to make the decision with a clearer mind. He chose to agree with it immediately. It's all there in the log file he quoted.
Furthermore, his protest was not about the scheme itself, but about the rules. He believed that it was against the rules to play using any scheme other than the cup-attached prescribed scheme. But given that you were willing to let me re-upload my games with Syc, that's apparently not the case; if the players agree, using a different scheme is apparently allowed. So SIBASA's entire reasoning behind protesting the scheme change in the first place is apparently not based on fact?
Truly I wouldn't mind much if you took my scheme, and changed its weapon probabilities to suit your liking. That is the thing I care least about. Have you read anything I've written? I've made it clear again and again what I most dislike in your scheme, and it's not the crate probabilities.
I'm more worried about this than increased damage from digging tools or glitch bans
Because the balance of the main weapon list is the same, with rare exceptions. If you look at the fact, for example, the mole and dynamite weapons are weapons of different strength.
You haven't even replied to my proposal. About copying your crate probabilities into my scheme.
"Conditionally prohibited"? Huh? As "they" did? Who's they? I haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about. Language barrier...
I meant that the fact that glitches and walking on the ceiling can not be used without applying the latest innovations
What do you mean by "applying the latest innovations"? Do you mean upgrading the game to v3.8.1? There's no excuse not to do that. The patch is easily available to anyone using the CD-ROM, Steam, or GOG version. Are you using a pirated copy of the game?
Apparently not, I just checked one of your replays and you're using WA v3.8.1. So I have no idea what you mean by "can not be used without applying the latest innovations".
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I already have a headache from this discussion. :-X
If you don’t want to play by the rules of the cup, don’t play. It is your choice.
In this dialogue, I will finish, and then I go to drink tablets
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In closing, I'd just like to highlight this:
Also, Lancelot, if you had stuck to your guns, and kept the exact scheme you originally attached to the cup without change, at least I could respect your integrity in some way for that. But your credibility as a mod dropped through the floor when you changed the scheme... for no reason. It still had all the things wrong with it that I had explained, so why did you do it?
You had every opportunity to make a reasonable change to the scheme. Instead you chose to make a nonsensical one, why? Out of spite?
I have tried my best to turn this disaster of a cup around back into something fun, and you have refused at every step to communicate clearly. You've flat-out ignored the most important points out of what I've said, repeatedly.
And also now, because of this, I don't particularly want to play with SIBASA ever again, and I expect he might feel the same way. Which is a shame, because he's a good player and I had fun playing T17s with him.
Do you refuse to use the latest scheme options so as to support pirates of the game who are still using WA v3.7.2.1?
Goodbye.
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@Lancelot,
This is your cup and as the cup moderator, you can specify any rules you want. That being said, it's a good practice to take the recent game changes into account. With the newest update of the game, there is absolutely no reason to have rules such as "no rope knocking". Furthermore, regarding SIBASA and deadcode, I see a conflict. SIBASA said he was not happy with deadcode's scheme but plays anyway. So I see 2 outcomes:
1. SIBASA wins, the games stand. (except you as the cup moderator check every replay file and void the games regardless of the outcome)
2. SIBASA loses, he can complaint and the games will be void.
Either way it's in SIBASA's favor. SIBASA's right move should have been to avoid playing and complain and he would get the free win because deadcode refused to play the official cup scheme.
@deadcode,
The default rules are to play with the cup scheme, unless the moderator says in the cup comments how much he/she is flexible about picking the scheme. Maybe a moderator wants to experiment with a custom scheme and he/she can't have players play with their own. You know you can start your own cup right? There are no restrictions:
User panel => Cups => Start a new cup
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@Lancelot,
This is your cup and as the cup moderator, you can specify any rules you want. That being said, it's a good practice to take the recent game changes into account. With the newest update of the game, there is absolutely no reason to have rules such as "no rope knocking". Furthermore, regarding SIBASA and deadcode, I see a conflict. SIBASA said he was not happy with deadcode's scheme but plays anyway. So I see 2 outcomes:
1. SIBASA wins, the games stand. (except you as the cup moderator check every replay file and void the games regardless of the outcome)
2. SIBASA loses, he can complaint and the games will be void.
Either way it's in SIBASA's favor. SIBASA's right move should have been to avoid playing and complain and he would get the free win because deadcode refused to play the official cup scheme.
@deadcode,
The default rules are to play with the cup scheme, unless the moderator says in the cup comments how much he/she is flexible about picking the scheme. Maybe a moderator wants to experiment with a custom scheme and he/she can't have players play with their own. You know you can start your own cup right? There are no restrictions:
User panel => Cups => Start a new cup
Thank you for intervening in our dispute.
I canceled both games in Group 1 vs deadcode because they were not played in a cup scheme
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When you guys reach the Playoffs, i'd like to stream the finals!
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SD weapons drop more balanced here than in the new league scheme.
The old league scheme had a low chance of SD weapons, which often resulted in draws because it's easy to darkside on a dual layer cavern map. The chance of each SD weapon was increased from 1.2% to 3.6% in the current league scheme. The WL scheme went further and increased the round time by 2 minutes so it's a bit harder to darkside.
The scheme currently being played in the league is more balanced in terms of low power weapons and a lot of trash in crates. It is considered an incredible success to pull the SD weapon out of the box. I will add another possibly unstable drop of SD weapons - three or four in a row. This fact does not fit with the balance, right? Plus, I will also say that the share of luck in the scheme plays a greater role than in the cup scheme. When one collects good boxes, the other collects trash, and this plays a decisive role. But then it turns out that the garbage weapon needs to be changed in terms of strength.
I don't agree. You don't have to go to war with bad weapons, that's what the girders and teleports are for. You can delay fighting until you get better weapons or until those "bad" weapons become useful. Of course, if a player knows just one playstyle and can't adapt to different situations, he is in trouble. Equal crate percentages make it more interesting imo because you need to choose the right strategy according to the weapons instead of playing the same way every game. Bigger weapon pool also favors players who are creative and have good weapon knowledge.
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Deadcode's games are void, but scheme 223 is allowed?
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give you 48 days for the group stage
hf
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ready to become a replacement
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ready to become a replacement
done
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In this dialogue, I will finish, and then I go to drink tablets
(https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/254/354/70b.gif)
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I don't see the cup being played. Should I ask it to close it again?
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playoffs paired, hf
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I've been going through every Cup that is still active and finishing them by progressing those who were last active.
There hasn't been any activity in this cup for over a month now, though I see there is still an active deadline, i've progressed Senator as they had reported a game which had not been progressed yet.
If there is no activity, as in any visible effort by anyone by the end of the current deadline, since Lancelot seems active he can progress and play Senator, as i'm aware they are still active, the winner will receive Gold and the loser will receive Bronze then the Cup can be finished.
I will personally PM all the players in the cup and inform them the Cup is still active and the current situation.
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I see no point in continuing the cup and after the deadline I will submit a request to close the cup.
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I see no point in continuing the cup and after the deadline I will submit a request to close the cup.
Run and SIBASA just played their match, this is promising, you are active yourself, I saw Mega`Adnan on the ONL Discord yesterday i'll message him on Discord as well.
That just leaves VoK and FoxHound and they have both been active in the past few days.
You guys got this!
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I have reported the game with senator :)
Feels a bit weird to have only played 2 matches to finish the cup though! lol