Error with the way stats are displayed

[NAiL]

https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/members-stats/NAiL/

You can look at stats for every tus player, I like this feature but theres a problem with one thing in particular.

You see the bit where it says where you finish each season.

For me it says things like in season 9 I finished in in 20th place.

This is true I finished 20th in that season, but I qualified for 4th spot because of my overal rating. I had higher winning percentages than many of the people "above" me in the standings.

The top 8 players are selected for playoffs at the end of each season. If I qualified for 4th spot, then it means that my overall performance was better than 16 of the players who are placed higher than me on the standings.

Now I know that the standings display players in order of their seasonal ratings. This is not good, seeing as the true ratings of a player are the long term ones. The better you play each  season, the harder it is to place "higher" in the standings. Although yes you can still get a playoff spot, you could be on the 3rd page of the standings despite having higher winning percentages than the people above you.

Think about it, if you played perfectly every season and never lost a game, then you would have an extremely high overall rating and you'd only gain 1 point for a win. You could play 200 games a season, win all of them, but only increase your rating by 200 points. You'll be able to make the playoffs in 2ND spot each season, but you'd be on the 4th or 5th page of the standings, merely because you've only been winning 1 point per game. This isnt a fair reflection of your performance.

Solution:

The system needs to consider both ratings. It needs to understand that if a player is eligable for a PO place that is higher in the standings than his seasonal rating, it will place him in the higher position in the standings.

Just keep the first 8 places in the standings as PO spots once a player meets the requirements.

Look back at the example I gave of the perfect player. Once he has reached the 50 game minimum, it says "Oh, his seasonal rating is only 1050 and so although there are 127 people with higher seasonal ratings than him, he has the highest overall rating and so qualifies as 2nd best player in the season. I shall move him to the 2nd place spot in the standings.

So on my stats it wouldn't say I finished 20th for season 9, it would say I finished in 4th, which I did. Random would be shown in 2nd place now, instead of 20th, which he deserves to be as his winning percentages are higher than many above him and also has a high overall rating.

So my problem isnt that the system doesnt work, its the way information is displayed. The way it currently is, someone who wins 60 games a season and loses none will drop lower and lower in the standings as his overall rating increases over time, this doesnt accurately reflect his performance season after season.

Hope you understood all that, its quite simple really!

[Chicken23]

what about standings showing overall stats as default? and someone that hasnt played any games for a seaosn isnt displayed and has an inactive symbol instead? Then u wouldnt have to see f4st at the top as he aint played for ages?

[Chicken23]

like for example when you click on overall points. It listed the players in current season 10 but overall points. And still has the selected players for PO's highlighted, maybe make this the default view. and if people wanna see seasonal, they will?

[NAiL]

yeh, but the fact is that the system said I placed 20th, when I actually placed in 4th.

I should be moved to 4th in the standings.

The fact is, PO spots 1 3 5 and 7 will all be in the corresponding places in the standings. As overall ratings are used for PO spots 2 4 6 and 8, they could be anywhere else in the standings.

To qualify for a 2, 4, 6, or 8 spot, your overall rating must be high, and you must play the minimum number of games and play well.

The only reason you are shown lower in the standings is because you earn a lot less points per win, and lose a lot more for losses.

To put it simply what im saying is,

Once a player has qualified for a PO spot, he should move to that spot in the standings.

On my stats it says I finished 20th in season 9, look on the season 9 PO page and it says "I positioned 4th".

I did finish in 4th, as ive said before, the top 8 players from each season. So, qualifying as 4th I have "theoretically, according to a fair system" played better than the 16 people above me, as im shown in the standings to be in 20th. It should see that I have qualified for 4th place, and so move me to 4th place in the standings to reflect this!

[MonkeyIsland]

@NAiL,
Is your perfect player the perfect noob basher? There's no scheme or no other player with a closer rank to him that he could gain more than 1 point per game?

@Chicken23,
Have you ever played with columns in TUS standings? Did you know that almost every column on TUS sorts the result by the name it holds? The default standings IS season 10 (The current season), If you want to see it by overall, you gotta click on the overall column, no need to change time machine.

@topic,
NAiL your statement seems reasonable enough but doesn't it confuse people? You're 20th in that season, but once you got qualified for PO, you jump into 4th. In the meantime if you click on the 'Overall Points' column in the standings, you will see yourself as 4th. Have you tried that?

And how about adding another column to the users page that tell which place you had in the PO?

[NAiL]

@NAiL,
Is your perfect player the perfect noob basher? There's no scheme or no other player with a closer rank to him that he could gain more than 1 point per game?

Im saying "theoretically", if you won all of your games and never lost you would be gaining only 1 point per win.

Yes, you should move to 4th place if you qualify for 4th place!!

The system will just rearrange the order. The top 20 will still be the top 20, with the top 8 being in order of PO position.

[Rok]

@NAiL,
Is your perfect player the perfect noob basher? There's no scheme or no other player with a closer rank to him that he could gain more than 1 point per game?

Im saying "theoretically", if you won all of your games and never lost you would be gaining only 1 point per win.

Yeah, theoretically, if everybody plays only vs you. In reality people play with everybody, so there's always someone you can beat and get more points.

[MonkeyIsland]

NAiL I just wanna make sure you know the concept of TUS standings page already.

When you click on the standings page, you will see a tiny triangle next to 'Season Points'. That triangle means the standings is getting sorted by season point. All other columns there are links to sort the standings by other options. For example if you click on 'Games Played', you can actually see the list get sorted by games played and who has been the most active player in the season. Clicking again that column will give you the reversed list, meaning who has played the least games in the season.

[NAiL]

Yeah, theoretically, if everybody plays only vs you. In reality people play with everybody, so there's always someone you can beat and get more points.

Yes, but im using the extreme to prove a point. If there was a player who got all of his ratings over say 3000 points, then in the MAJORITY of games he would only be able to win 1 or to points.

Now this is fine, he'll be able to qualify as long as he plays and wins enough of his overal games, but it will be IMPOSSIBLE for him to place 1st in the standings, seeing as even if he played 500 games, his seasonal rating would only increase by 500. Most players earning an average of 30 points be win would be able to reach this in only 15 games.

Take the Flori case for example, he was only gaining 1 point for an rr win at one point.

MI,

My point, is that rating changes are calculated by overall ratings, so the better you play over a longer period of time, the harder it is to place high in the DEFAULT VIEW of the standings page.

There needs to be a dedicated button that lets you VIEW IN ORDER OF PO placement!

My main problem was that, surely in on my stats page it should say I finished 4th, in season 9, rather than 20th. I understand that this is only regarding my seasonal rating, but on the playoffs page it says "finished in X position in the standings". For me it says I "finished 4th" in the standings.

To finish in 4th means (in theory) that I would have played better than the 16 of the other people in the standings. It should say, that I finished in 4th on my stats page. I have qualified for POs in many seasons, but when you look at my stats it would look like I was only in the top 8 once or twice.

The tus system works using TWO sets of ratings, my problem is that it considers seasonal as the most important in terms of how a players performance is displayed. We have now a situation in which a new player can come to tus, win 50% of his games and place "higher" than an old pro whith a 90% winning percentage.

Its almost impossible for someone in the top 10 overall to finish 1st seasonally. I think the PO system should instead of placing 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8
it should place 1a 1b, 2a 2b, 3a 3b, 4a 4b. Just so that it LOOKS fairer, and so that people with high overall ratings can still battle it out for a 1st place.

Ive been rambling, cant type well atm, hope you got the jist of what im trying to say.

[MonkeyIsland]

Yea I've got it completely.

There are 2 pages we are talking about. Let's separate them first: Standings page and players stats page.

Player's page can be altered easily, maybe by adding 1 column telling about his position in the PO.

The most trouble is the standings page and its concept. Atm people look at it and see real position and understand their way to the PO: "After me is NAiL, if I win 3 more games I will be qualified and I will kick him out from PO". But if system is viewing NAiL on top because of his PO position, then people will get confused, they feel lost in the standings and no clue where are they in PO qualification. We gotta solve this first.

As you highlighted, if I make a button for it, then again it won't be default view and again it won't be the 'important' view as you stated.
But as your player stats page, It will be an easy job to do.

[NAiL]

aye MI.

A very simple thing you can do to make it easier for people to understand is this.

On the standings table players highlighted for PO positions should have some small text next to where it says "PO#1" explaining why they are there. You may need to make a column wider on the table to fit it in.

So it looks like this:

PO#1 (1st Seasonal)    shaggy
PO#3 (2nd Seasonal)   Crash
PO#5 (3rd Seasonal)    beer
PO#7 (4th Seasonal)     benz
PO#2 (1st Overall)     Random00     
PO#8 (4th Overall)     Chicken23     
PO#6 (3rd Overall)   guaton
PO#4 (2nd Overall)    ZiPpO

This is so much easier for people to understand.

You also need to make a button available on the standings page that shows only the 8 players qualified for POs, in order, like this:

PO#1 (1st Seasonal)    shaggy
PO#2 (1st Overall)     Random00
PO#3 (2nd Seasonal)   Crash
PO#4 (2nd Overall)    ZiPpO
PO#5 (3rd Seasonal)    beer
PO#6 (3rd Overall)   guaton
PO#7 (4th Seasonal)     benz
PO#8 (4th Overall)     Chicken23  

The button can be put in the box left of "Country" on the table.
There, now its very easy for everyone to understand!

[MonkeyIsland]

Why show a button if it's gonna show only the 8 people? If you visit the playoffs page, the 8 players are there already.

I"ll see what I can do for this page. Another column or wider column is not possible, since that table has many columns and has no room space for such spaces.

[Ray]

I"ll see what I can do for this page. Another column or wider column is not possible, since that table has many columns and has no room space for such spaces.

https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-general/standings-table/

[NAiL]

Why show a button if it's gonna show only the 8 people? If you visit the playoffs page, the 8 players are there already.

Because its quicker and easier.

At least have the information about WHY someone has qualified for a certain PO spot on the standings page. (1st Overall, 4th Seasonal etc...)

This is very important, most people do not understand how the tus PO system works, this would make it quick and easy to understand.

[chakkman]

I didnt read all this, but i think due to the way this season ended, with the clans are ranked and the po places are given i think its time to discuss the league system once again. If you take a look at the clanners standings you can see that theres clans ranked v low in the standings which participate in the playoffs. Tbh the standings in no way reflect how the season went. A clan like CF for example is in the po's due to their great overall rank which they can rest on now for every season although they didnt play more than 31 games this season. Whereas rly active clans like cfc and tag are not even present in the po's even though they did ~200 games both. Sry but this cant be in our sense how we want things to be in this league. IMO the overall rating should have a statistic meaning only, every season should ONLY be calculated by the season's rating.

I really hope you will consider doing a complete overhaul of the system as it now is, this way it is only weird and confusing to me (and not only me, tbh no1 i ask rly understands the way the points, the standings get calculated...).

Edit: Rules should be CLEAR and SIMPLE. We do this for fun and not to browse through a 5 pages rules book to understand how the system works.