The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: Chicken23 on September 08, 2010, 12:49 AM
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I am sick of everyone who thinks that tus schemes are correct and must be played. TaG just refused to clan CKC because we did not want to use the tus shopper scheme.
SHOPPER DOES NOT HAVE UNLIMTED ZOOKS!! they were added to the wxw scheme to give retreat time to rope back to the wall or pile. Its not a feature of shopper. wxw and shopper used to be the same rating but then the schemes were divided and a rating created for each one. A shopper scheme was never released and everyone thinks you play shopper with 3 worms and a wxw scheme.
Also the t17 scheme has problems and its not just the debate of 7 griders or not. Its the whole selection of repeating catogories of weapons.
People refuse to play me at tus because they think the schemes used on this website are the law. When infact the schemes have some errors. I know MI has been waiting to update and rerelease schemes but can you do it sooner than later because a whole generation of players are starting to regard these schemes as correct.
>:(
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rant over!!
guaton just downloaded the scheme and TaG did play us in the end. It was only artic who had issues!
you can download this brilliant scheme here! ::)
https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-318/
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TUS should differ the "oficial" schemes from the crap ones.
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i have to admit. There is a trend of mutliple uzi's occuring in this scheme haha.. maybe it needs a tweak. Play it and see what u think!
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While I see your point Tom, and kind of agree with it, on the other hand this is what makes leagues different, having different scheme setups, it always has been different for T17 at least in most league, and I remember when Ropers used to be 25hp lol, More or less no BnG rules also, but meh, everyone enjoys what they enjoy it doesn't matter what TuS use, there will always be people who thought 1 scheme was better than the other :S
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I see the problem in schemes, I have written about it once too. They need to be changed. But as long as they are shitty ones we must play them, if both players don't agree for another one, or just stop playing league. I don't agree for other scheme than official tus because I don't know it. I remember ckc (chicken) or tdc (clanner) have avoided to play because they didn't want to put official scheme. I don't care if it's your pick or not, scheme is scheme. I will not agree for unofficial scheme just because I don't know sets there!
So for now play official schemes or just stop playing it, I don't need to see topics how pro you are chicken because you know many schemes, see the differents and can decide what to do. I will not play with you because you put shitty schemes which I see first time in my life, probably made by you, just for the win.
I'm waiting for changes in schemes.
btw thx Leroy for applaud me ;*
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I so agree with Chicken! At least on the tus t 17 scheme part. It reapeats weapons, its v v annoying. Dyno, old woman, and pidgeons, sometmes holys also. Its so boring! Pls change it! FOr now, i've used fb sccheme quite alot, its better.
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Chicken doesn't use schemes he made up, most of the ones he uses are from FB league.
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https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-141/
Chicken, what's wrong with this Shopper scheme? I pretty much like it, weapons are not overpowered, there is no infinite bazooka of course, it was made by Wooka (or at least uploaded) and it is the official TUS Shoper scheme so far. And as I said, I had no problem with it.
As for the rest of the schemes, I told MonkeyIsland this a few times already - TUS should have like a Schemes Team which would consist of the most experienced active players around TUS. That would be like 5-7 people, I don't know. Their task would be to review the official schemes (Classic League) and alter them, tune them to be the best.
After that is done, those schemes could be released, notify the people by email and post something on the homepage, blablabla so people get notified and not using the official scheme should be penalized unless both players agree.
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SHOPPER DOES NOT HAVE UNLIMTED ZOOKS!!
Totally agree.
Real shopper is: Infinite Rope & Chute. All weapons (except air ones) can be found in the crates (from punch to SuperSheep) with less chance about Super Weapons. And for sure, no Afr rule !
About T17 crates: Is the same as the Shopper ones.
And for chance whiner in Shopper: Play Shoppra, only Zook, Nades & Mines in crates.
Komo, as you noticed, Proper had 25hp Health Crates, and was quite much better (even if you couldn't attack, picking the crate everyturns allowed you to make the game long enough to come back).
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I don't agree for other scheme than official tus because I don't know it. I remember ckc (chicken) or tdc (clanner) have avoided to play because they didn't want to put official scheme. I don't care if it's your pick or not, scheme is scheme. I will not agree for unofficial scheme just because I don't know sets there!
Im not sure if we avoided to play you, I think we came to a compromise of some sorts. Dunno though, long time ago.
Anyway, the T17 scheme we chose for was my own. In our opinion it's a lot better than the official one, and since it's widely acknowledged to be a good league scheme (used in t17 cups), we figured it wouldn't be a problem. And well.. I think you can trust TdC-clan to pick a fair and balanced scheme.
Btw MI, my t17 scheme is perfect for league games. The weapon balance is IMO perfect and I haven't had any complaints about it yet. It should be the new league scheme. Only thing that is debatable is the girder count, my scheme (but with 7 girders) would be a good choice as official setting. :)
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I have no problem with it. Chicken23 is going through some schemes and we're gonna make a new updated pack and announce it.
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Good idea there, and let's discuss those schemes as a community after you're done with them Tom, I think it's best to have different opinions before releasing a new TUS scheme pack. :)
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I agree. i wanna play hhc's t17 scheme. i like fb and a scheme i have on my laptop which pre exisits fb but 3 out of 10 games are abit of a nana festivals. Does changing the number of griders to the players prefer amount of unlimited or 7 change the cr8 variation!? This is where me and uber noticed that the tus scheme had some problems when u editted it griders.
what are the chance of getting nukes, eq, scales, pasty, sally, vase, griderpack, super nana, freeze and select? These weapons make t17, you need them and you need the paranoia to play to avoid being killed by such things to make it exiciting! I don't see these weapons enough in tus scheme, just earthquakes.
As for shopper i would use FB but i changed to use a scheme which was less overpowered. I do see why people dislike cows, hhq and aqua. But i thought the scheme i made was a nice balance because it still enclude minigun, axe and bow. Ray i will try that scheme you mentioned.
I don't want this to just be about me and MI fixing the schemes, i want everyone to be involved because we need to agree on this. The scheme we create are the examples to new players and we are breeding a whole generation of guys that don't know any different from tus schemes. Thats why i want them to play with the 'correct' schemes because they'll be the ones passing them down when we are all gone..
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Chicken u f@#!ing Flamer!!!
nah serious, good point ae.
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/me <3 FirstBlood :(
RIP.
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Alternative shopper scheme: http://wormolympics.com/tournaments/download/269
FFie's been updating her shopper scheme, first used for wmdb tourneys.
Kiros once told me he used the wmdb scheme and had only slight alterations to make it the fb scheme.
Although there's always the on and off bl game, weapons are usually quite balanced
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I said that a while ago, but I'll repeat it once again: That (ex-) WMDB scheme is the best and most balanced I ever played.
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I agree, some of the schemes need tweaked.
Shoppa
Wooka's scheme actually looks pretty nice, except the fire punch, dragonball, and maybe the percentage of bats you can get. Realistically, who ever wants to get a crate and get a fire punch or dragonball?
I said that a while ago, but I'll repeat it once again: That (ex-) WMDB scheme is the best and most balanced I ever played.
I'll have to disagree with you here if you are talking about the shoppa scheme D1 just posted.
I don't know if anyone knows this, but when you have a scheme with pairs of weapons like grenade & HHG, homing missile & pigeon, uzi & minigun, and mine & dynamite, it increases the crate luck... it is just common sense. You could get a homing missile, and your opponent a pigeon... why implement pretty much similar weapons that differ with damage? You have to settle with one or the other in the weapon pairs I listed, otherwise you will always have more crate luck. I see in that wmdb scheme they have nades & hhg, homing missile & pigeon, and mine & dynamite... That is just begging for more luck in the scheme.
I know you guys will dispute that nades can have its advantages over hhgs and whatnot, but once again, realistically, you would always rather get a hhg in a crate than nades, etc etc etc. Also, I see Mad Cows as more crate luck... why should someone be able to launch 3 sheep-caliber weapons in one turn just because that player picked up a random crate?
If you really want fair crates in shoppa, you need to eliminate some weapons... the more weapon diversity, the more crate luck come into play... the less crate diversity, the better chance of getting balanced weapons between you and your opponent.
Team17
One of my biggest problems with default schemes today is that the mindset seems to be every default scheme (besides bng) needs to be blessed with random oil or mines or both in order to be sanctified... this seems completely ridiculous to me. At most, the random oil and mines only have an argument at elite, because you can place your worms. In t17, you cannot place your worms, there is no rule against attacking the first turn, and there are random oil barrels on the map... This screams first turn advantage in some cases. Once again, why are we allowing the game take control of our destiny when we don't have to? That isn't the only thing about barrels...
If a crate lands on the edge of the map, either top or bottom, and your opponent already has a worm covering the area, then hopefully you will not decide to get the crate, unless you don't care about getting shot off the side of the map. The same applies for crates that land near oil (I'm talking early game, by the way). If a crate randomly drops near a randomly placed oil drum with a randomly placed enemy worm already covering the land, then you probably won't get the crate, and there is nothing you can do about it... It is just bad luck... bad luck wormers refuse to correct because oil drums in t17 are "classic". You don't know what that crate could have been... It could have been something like a worm select or freeze... but you'll never know unless you are willing to sacrifice high damage to your worm to take a gamble on a crate. The oil drums give distinct advantages to a person who got lucky random placings.
As for weapons, as I always say, remove bananas, super bananas, vases, and army. OHKO weapons like that do not take much skill to use effectively, and it is just luck in the first place that you got them. I would also eliminate Patsy, since it doesn't even take a brain to aim and hit with. Once again, this is a luck factor that we can change if we think a little bit. Weapons like earthquake and nuke should stay, because it actually takes some prep and tactics to pull off. Often your opponent figures out you have one of these weapons, and they can act appropriately... When using EQ or Nuke, you can give off a lot of "tells" that help your opponent figure out what you are trying to do... It takes intelligence to hide these "tells" and to spot them, so those weapons should stay because of the tactical value.
Eliminating the super duper OHKO weapons will put more emphasis on using your other weapons more creatively. T17 is a scheme about weapons, and whoever can improvise with the weapons they achieve the best should win (nanas, vase, etc. don't take improvisation... they just kill so easily it is bs).
*puts the flame shield up*
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Also, I see Mad Cows as more crate luck... why should someone be able to launch 3 sheep-caliber weapons in one turn just because that player picked up a random crate?
This tells me you never played with that scheme. Otherwise you would've known the cows have less power.
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I guess I stand corrected on that point... I was just looking at what you get in the crates for your scheme. it doesn't make my other points invalid
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I can see why one would rather want a pigeon than a homing missile, but as for the nade/holy and dyna/mine thing, I think all of those weapons come in handy sometimes and should be kept. Clusters however are completely useless on some maps and overpowered on others.
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i think all schemes have to be revamped, and not just the weapons in the crates...
example 1) w2roper ftw
example 2) why do shopper games have 30 second turns?? no1 can deny the shopper scheme was invented by newbs.... so when the scheme made it to the bigtime (lol) why did the pro's accept 30 second turn time?
it reminds me so much of the current roper scheme... when w:a was learning to rope you guys used this 15 second turn 10 retreat, and no matter how long you play, it will never change.. duno why i waste my time.
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i think all schemes have to be revamped, and not just the weapons in the crates...
No, they don't. And i don't think this thread was started because people want revolutionary changes in the schemes but to change the existing schemes so it simply fits better. Also none of your examples makes sense either. You know there's a big variety in skills of the players which play this league, it's not like there are Mablaks or Random00's all over this place. :) Apart from that i don't get all this breaking changes in schemes thing... these schemes which you want to change revolutionary and so advertise those work in leagues for years, people enjoy the schemes as they are.
And now you guys even bring Team17 up as a scheme to be discussed about it's several (imaginative) luck factors... where will this end? Which scheme will be next? You know the question you should ask yourselves is that if you lose and blame the circumstances, the things which you have no influence on, is it really all luck or bad luck or am i a bad loser? Of course i can make things easy for myself and blame the scheme surely... on the other hand take a look at Worm Olympics, the several leagues for Worms and take a look at who wins all the stuff. Yes, it is always the same guys. Strange considering there are so many "lucky" things in this game huh?
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Avi, Shopper is a strategic scheme before being a rope-skill one.
You get 30sec to think and act clearly, because every things you do change the result of the game.
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but 30 seconds? really?... ok
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30 seconds for shopper is fine avi, it isn't really a sole rope based scheme, and like Ab said you use the turn time for stragetic moves, such as long distance knocks, being able to get out of a block, if you take away even 5 seconds from this scheme, it would drastically lower the possibilities of skillful moves and opportunitys.
I also agree with chakkman on this...
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Alot of wise things being said here! :)
I deff dont think we should make a revolution here, and try 2 make all the schemes "non luck" ones. Its not possible 2 do that, and some of the schemes will always have bigger luck factors then others, BUT as Chakk said, its pretty much the same players that end up on top always in the different schemes.
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Team17
It is just bad luck... bad luck wormers refuse to correct because oil drums in t17 are "classic".
This is exactly the attitude that has made me quit WA for the time being.
What is with you people that every single, tiny aspect of the game needs to be 'corrected' to take out the random/ "bad luck" factor?? Ask yourself this, would Worms, on a competitive level, still be fun if it came down to pure skill all the time? Wouldn't it be just as easy then to get rid of TUS and just hand out the Elite trophies to the CF squad, the RR to Ryan, the BnG to Komodo and the T17 to me (lolz)?
Heck, would Worms still be 'fun'?
I dont know about you but I feel that many schemes have already degenerated into some kind of chess, in which each and every game has the same set-up and an almost equal way the games develop towards SD. We have altered the maps, added manual placements, basically we've done everything to make this game more predictable under the pretense that it accurately reflects who has more skillzzz, but what we've actually done is taken the fun out of all of it.
Not just Roper and Shopper use custom maps nowadays, but Elite and BnG maps are also tweaked to meet our demands.. to get rid of any possible 'luck'-factors that might take us to a situation that is new to us, to which we are not prepared, to a game that is beyond our personal control. Oh horror!
In the meantime we push newbies away with our intricate and abundant houserules and our pro-schemes which have little to nothing to do with what Worms was originally meant to be.
You guys may whine all you want when 'boons' on the T17 forum, as well as Team17 themselves, fail to recognize the superiority of WA and its gametypes, but in all honesty.. it's the WA community itself that is blinded by its own incompetence to keep the game interesting for new and old players alike.
What people want is not some kind of inate chess-game in which the winner is pretty much predetermined (You can tell almost exactly who is going to be in the final of a RR cup or Elite tourney), instead, they want a game that is fun, easily accessible and competitive. In your drive to make this game more skill-based you have also made it dull, predictable and elitist.
Team17 has been the only scheme that kept me playing WA for longer than 2 months. It is the only scheme left that is not totally predictable. It's the fun of being faced with situations that are beyond your control and in which you must try to think of ways to gain benefit, to gain the upper hand. No T17 game is ever the same.. it's like playing chess, but instead the pieces are scattered randomly across the board. This makes for an entirely different game and no matter how you twist it: there's plenty of opportunity for good players to turn the game in their advantage.
Take out the 'overpowered' weapons, the barrels, the random placements, etcetera etcetera and what you are left with is the same inate, dull chess-shit Elite got turned into in the days of ESL.
Worms Reloaded for me is much more fun because placements are random, maps are random, mines are random, there's crates, barrels, fires, mines, etcetera etcetera. No game is ever the same. Playing a newbie can still be a challenge and each and every game you have to adapt to the circumstances given and exactly THAT is what's most fun to me.
But alas, even in W:R people want to inforce manual placement, the banning of caverns in BnG, the implementation of houserules, etc. So I wouldnt be surprised if they sucked out the fun out of this game as well.
So yeah, maybe it's time for the community to look in the mirror and ask themselves whether it's not a good idea to bring back random maps, auto placements and well, everything that can make the game more random. Random = good.
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You can always play funners when you feel like it.
When you want to compete, reducing luck is just the smart thing to do. For me competing with skilled players is most enjoyable.
Oh, and I want the elite trophy god dammit!
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When you want to compete, reducing luck is just the smart thing to do. For me competing with skilled players is most enjoyable.
Is it? Like I said, reducing randomness kills competition. And besides, are competition and fun two opposites?
What would F1 be like if cars could not blow up their engine, engage in crashes, f@#! up pit stops and stuff like that? Would be even more boring to watch (or experience) as it is now (is that possible? yes it is..).
Or a game of yathzee where everyone gets the same scores and it's only up to them to decide where the score counts towards?
That's just stupid imo. Reducing luck does not benefit competition and it certainly doesn't make it more interesting in this case.
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What is with you people that every single, tiny aspect of the game needs to be 'corrected' to take out the random/ "bad luck" factor?? Ask yourself this, would Worms, on a competitive level, still be fun if it came down to pure skill all the time? Wouldn't it be just as easy then to get rid of TUS and just hand out the Elite trophies to the CF squad, the RR to Ryan, the BnG to Komodo and the T17 to me (lolz)?
Heck, would Worms still be 'fun'?
I agree with you, but yes, I am guessing the reason why people think it's fun in leagues if it came down to pure skill, is because it is a league, it is there as a test to your capability of using a set scheme and rules to beat your opponent in certain games, I personally think if you play the game for fun, there are still hundreds of players out there that like to play random funners, so don't play leagues if this is what you enjoy, although you do have a valid point...
I dont know about you but I feel that many schemes have already degenerated into some kind of chess, in which each and every game has the same set-up and an almost equal way the games develop towards SD. We have altered the maps, added manual placements, basically we've done everything to make this game more predictable under the pretense that it accurately reflects who has more skillzzz, but what we've actually done is taken the fun out of all of it.
Not just Roper and Shopper use custom maps nowadays, but Elite and BnG maps are also tweaked to meet our demands.. to get rid of any possible 'luck'-factors that might take us to a situation that is new to us, to which we are not prepared, to a game that is beyond our personal control. Oh horror!
I can't disagree with you here, because I have noticed the exact same thing, they have more or less the same set-up and an almost equal way that they develop towards SD, but then again, we haven't taken the fun out of it, this is a league remember and it's supposed to be played seriously and competitive, people who don't like that shouldn't play leagues, everyone who knows me can vouch for me here, the way I BnG in leagues, and in funners, are completely different, unless i'm drunk lol, I do think it's fun with extra luck factor, but not in leagues, luck is so much fun, it can give you the biggest laugh even when it happens to you, but if it happens in a serious league game and costs a match you want to win, look at it from this perspective? Some people don't care about losing, some people do, alot of people in this league play with a different style from funners-league matches, and not only that, alot have a completely different attitude also...
In the meantime we push newbies away with our intricate and abundant houserules and our pro-schemes which have little to nothing to do with what Worms was originally meant to be.
You guys may whine all you want when 'boons' on the T17 forum, as well as Team17 themselves, fail to recognize the superiority of WA and its gametypes, but in all honesty.. it's the WA community itself that is blinded by its own incompetence to keep the game interesting for new and old players alike.
Some people push noobs away yes, we can't make them do any different, I kick noobs if I already have a game setup specifically, but it doesn't bother me because I know whenever I host a random game, and a noob joins (99% of the time it's BnG) not only do I have the patience to teach them the rules, thanks to my skills I can actually attract noobs to BnG, because when people like me, and everyone else in b2b plays BnG, it looks a HELL of a lot more exciting than the TuS/FB/WL style "keep throwing 3s/4s" besides, being a noob nowadays isn't that big a deal anymore, most gamers know that when they play a game for the 1st time, they are a noob, they refer to themself as a noob, so they expect to be kicked a few times, it's the noobs that act like idiots and be disrespectful that get treated like crap, and I don't blame anyone for this... Show me a 1st time player with a nice attitude and alot of time on their hands not only will I teach them the game we are playing, I will give them as much advice tips and tricks about being a WA player, I've told probably over 100 noobs since I started b2b with wormf00d, "yeah gg man, and remember if you see anyone with "b2b" in their name, just tell them I said you could BnG with them :)" now with this being said, I do see how all the arguing n stuff on these forums could turn some people away...
What people want is not some kind of inate chess-game in which the winner is pretty much predetermined (You can tell almost exactly who is going to be in the final of a RR cup or Elite tourney), instead, they want a game that is fun, easily accessible and competitive. In your drive to make this game more skill-based you have also made it dull, predictable and elitist.
Actually in a league like this, the person with the most skill should deserve to win, and I don't blame them for wanting to, and while I really really do respect your opinion, I think you are assuming quite alot here vouching for "people" in order to make something competitive, you have to rule out options that make it less competitive, "luck" in this case is a big big part, too much luck that is usually 1-sided in most games, and you have most people complaining, it's nice to have a little luck, that creates some unexpected moments that doesn't affect the outcome of the game due to players talents, is cool, but having 1, or 2 turns, of bad luck due to a scheme setting, can ruin anywhere between 15 minutes to an hour of someones day, who wouldn't have even bothered losing if it had came down to their own fault...
Team17 has been the only scheme that kept me playing WA for longer than 2 months. It is the only scheme left that is not totally predictable. It's the fun of being faced with situations that are beyond your control and in which you must try to think of ways to gain benefit, to gain the upper hand. No T17 game is ever the same.. it's like playing chess, but instead the pieces are scattered randomly across the board. This makes for an entirely different game and no matter how you twist it: there's plenty of opportunity for good players to turn the game in their advantage.
This is correct, but I must also point out, even in competitive T17 games, you still don't really get 2 games exactly the same...
Take out the 'overpowered' weapons, the barrels, the random placements, etcetera etcetera and what you are left with is the same inate, dull chess-shit Elite got turned into in the days of ESL.
I agree, I much prefer T17 with superweapons, it's what makes it more fun :)
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Komo pretty much sums it up. I personally don't think that adding randomness to league schemes makes it more interesting, it would just make it more frustrating for people that value skill over luck. In competitive play most people think that luck shouldn't be involved. For example the referee calls that are sometimes wrong in soccer (football) are often reason for a whole flame of both, players and fans to get rid off. Some goals that are called off-side or goals that shouldn't be given (see Germany vs. England in WC) There are people like you HHC that think it should be kept this way, and there are people like me that think luck isn't supposed to be win/loss determining. :)
P.S.: Are you getting Civilization 5 HHC? Coming out soon. :D
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Not planning to Kai. :-[
Btw, the example that you give in football is a little different.. it's more like a bug in Worms Reloaded, like when a worm suddenly gains 100 health or so.
You gotta realize that by pushing for increasingly 'skill'-based schemes you are turning a fun game into.. well.. a napoleonic pitched battle where both armies meet at a prearranged place, under prearranged conditions and in a strict prearranged order (every compagny in neatly organized blocks of men). Then the armies march towards eachother and the army with the last man standing wins the match.
What I'm saying is that by adding random circumstances you free the battle from these strict rules and allow for much more improvisation and a totally different order of battle every time you play. You know, instead of these organized pitched battles you get a much more dynamic warfare in which it is far less important how good your riffles are or how good your plan is, but instead the focus is on adapting to the circumstances and making the best use of the opportunities you are offered.. and on the basis of these factors decide which plan you are going to push through.
Hmm.. let's stick with Civilization. By your logic, to make the game more skill based, each player must have equal access to the same resources. Therefore, the game must be played on a mirror-map in which each side starts on exactly the same terrain as his opponent and with the resources located at exactly the same spots. Furthermore each player must start with the same technology tree, there may be no random treasures on the map giving any benefits (if there are any in civ i dunno ???), etcetera.
Sure it's fair, but is it cool to play it that way? Wouldn't it be much cooler to start on a random map with different circumstances for each player? One by the sea, one further inland and so forth?
A good player will still win 90% of the matches. Same in Worms. I win about 90% in Worms: Reloaded, despite the fact that everything is random. On the long run, when you play 1000 games each season, the luck-factor becomes negligent as the percentage of 'outlucked' games will be similar to that of the opponent. In a tournament it is slightly different, but still, does the most skilled person have to win every single tournament?
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When you want to compete, reducing luck is just the smart thing to do. For me competing with skilled players is most enjoyable.
Is it? Like I said, reducing randomness kills competition. And besides, are competition and fun two opposites?
What would F1 be like if cars could not blow up their engine, engage in crashes, f@#! up pit stops and stuff like that? Would be even more boring to watch (or experience) as it is now (is that possible? yes it is..).
Or a game of yathzee where everyone gets the same scores and it's only up to them to decide where the score counts towards?
That's just stupid imo. Reducing luck does not benefit competition and it certainly doesn't make it more interesting in this case.
I know I'd enjoy more of F1 cars being totally same for everyone and the winnings coming mostly from the skill of the driver and mechanics. There's still plenty of random f@#!-ups in competitive games also, like f@#!ing up a jump which may totally cause you to lose the game or such.
But yea I guess it depends on the person, I find more value on mastering the art and the skill that comes with it.
To come think of it, I get my fair share of fun from challenges that happen from random situations (like T17) but most of the time it's not my superior underdog gameplay that brings me the victory but more the lack of skill of the opponent to take advantage of the situation. But I do agree it makes you a better player to come up with nasty situations like this, but in league games I'd rather not have luck decide who gets the advantage.
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I remember Wyvern had a Team17 winning streak (the scheme you so complain about having a huge luck factor) in some league (i think cbc-wwp) of like 200-7 or so. I think that speaks for itself. :) Anyway, i think HHC said it all. Not much more to add to that.
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Not planning to Kai. :-[
Btw, the example that you give in football is a little different.. it's more like a bug in Worms Reloaded, like when a worm suddenly gains 100 health or so.
You gotta realize that by pushing for increasingly 'skill'-based schemes you are turning a fun game into.. well.. a napoleonic pitched battle where both armies meet at a prearranged place, under prearranged conditions and in a strict prearranged order (every compagny in neatly organized blocks of men). Then the armies march towards eachother and the army with the last man standing wins the match.
What I'm saying is that by adding random circumstances you free the battle from these strict rules and allow for much more improvisation and a totally different order of battle every time you play. You know, instead of these organized pitched battles you get a much more dynamic warfare in which it is far less important how good your riffles are or how good your plan is, but instead the focus is on adapting to the circumstances and making the best use of the opportunities you are offered.. and on the basis of these factors decide which plan you are going to push through.
Hmm.. let's stick with Civilization. By your logic, to make the game more skill based, each player must have equal access to the same resources. Therefore, the game must be played on a mirror-map in which each side starts on exactly the same terrain as his opponent and with the resources located at exactly the same spots. Furthermore each player must start with the same technology tree, there may be no random treasures on the map giving any benefits (if there are any in civ i dunno ???), etcetera.
Sure it's fair, but is it cool to play it that way? Wouldn't it be much cooler to start on a random map with different circumstances for each player? One by the sea, one further inland and so forth?
A good player will still win 90% of the matches. Same in Worms. I win about 90% in Worms: Reloaded, despite the fact that everything is random. On the long run, when you play 1000 games each season, the luck-factor becomes negligent as the percentage of 'outlucked' games will be similar to that of the opponent. In a tournament it is slightly different, but still, does the most skilled person have to win every single tournament?
Your Civ example is quite good, I did play Civ4 competitive and 1v1 and 2v2 were mostly played on Mirrow maps. But these maps didn't contain just the same resources, one had cupper the other had Iron. But both Improvements allowed the played to build axemen, eventhough Iron is better cause it could be used to build swordsmen. The developers of such games take a lot of time to balance the randomness, we don't have a pack of people that spent time balancing every Percentage of the drop-rates in our schemes. The Civs in Civ4 all had different 'speccs', that means if you picked Romanian Empire you had better swordsmen in the early game. So basically you had to rush for an early confrontation while a Civ like, I think it was India had Worker Units that could build things on the landscape twice as fast, hence gathering resources faster. In Civ4 there was no ultimate Civ, though the Civs that were strong in later game phases weren't usually picked in these mirrow maps because they are small to start off with. You had to decide yourself if you wanted to rush the enemy or just dig in an try to defend.
About the Tech-Tree. Yes Civ4 had for every Civilization the same Tech-Tree, it's the freedom of choice and you got other benefits from your Civ 'speccs' that made you different to other Civs. But the starting Tech's for every Civ were different. Also you had to do so many decisions that you can't say every Civ has the same Tech-Tree at all. Some Civs need to focus on Religion/warfare etc. It even depended on the situation, which resources you have on your pile of land etc.
Well Civ is a big topic and in my opinion by far the best turn-based Stretegy game. (After Worms of course ;)) So lets stop the Civ example.
I am just saying that most randomness is very balanced in other games/things. We need randomness in T17, it's built around that but it needs to be balanced like any other game. Think of all the RTS games like Starcraft. It's also necessary to be able to always counter a specific weapon, in my opinion at least.
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Basically I don't really think it matters what we do, people who know how to control crates and use good opportunities when they arise will win most of the time...
Most people know to avoid SD weapons now, if they don't, they should practise more, the thing that gets me is extremely bad random placement, for example, 3 worms at the bottom, and they have 2, with 1st turn, they get the 1st crate teleport up top, so they have 1 worm, you have 3 still down there, next turn you can only move 1, so you have a possible chance of 2 worms dying in the 2nd shot, but I know, this rarely happens, but even something like your opponent getting like 3 massive weapons in a row, cows, nana, hhg, while you get, uzi, zook, nade, is a bit frustrating, but that is when you got to play defensive and do everything you can to try and take control of crates and try and bluff your way, it's kind of like Poker in a way lol.
I think the occasional unbalanced game is fun, but when it happens 90% of the time to you, it sucks lol.
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What I have noticed too is that even if we could mathematically prove that scheme 1 is superior to scheme 2 people won't just suddenly stop playing scheme 2. It has never worked like that in a game that is so old. Sure when a game is new everyone is trying things, make suggestions and they are considered. But after I don't know, 10 years of W:A we didn't really have many drastic changes. The Major thing was in my opinion the RR evolution to TTRR and the deletion of cr8s in elite. And if you think of it, it was not a crucial change. The schemes just got minor changes. Even if we nail the problems down, everyone will talk about it but noone does anything in the end. That's a bit lazy. :)
But you can't enforce people to magically drop scheme 1 to play scheme 2. If the majority agrees with changes but still like it the old way nothing will ever change. Except leagues enforce people to play other schemes.
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The thing is about overpowered weapons in T17, to prevent this you need to girder everytime to not let your opponent come too close to you.
But with the 7 girders, you can't.
So, do you prefer prevent blockers by putting 7 girders, or let a chance to unlucky players to win by putting infinite ones ?
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im happy with these schemes lol x;
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I dont know, but i think this topic is going in a different path than chicken23 meant it 2 be. I dont think he meant 2 change the t 17 scheme much, just find another one, since the tus t17 scheme somehow got bugged and have a nasty habit of repeating weaps (trust me I know). I dont wanna touch anything in the t17 scheme actually, its the scheme i love the most, which gimme most pleasure. Tons of ppl told me t 17 is all luck, those who know the scheme knows thats not the truth, but i can gladly admit that its one of the schemes with the biggest luck factor.I find that luck factor a good challenge! :)
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I agree with everything HHC said. We have schemes which are less lucky than others. RR. But what makes worms fun and exiciting is the luck. T17 will always have this luck and trying to take away those big weapons just sucks!!!
Thats why the previous shopper schemes are fun aswell because you have a bigger range of weapons! Thats why i editted tus's and added minigun, axe and longbow (you need a shit weapon every now and then. plus it gives u a chance to make two nice pushes) id be interested to use the WMDB shopper scheme darkone mentioned as ive yet to play this one. I only know of FB and that had cows, hhg and aqua but were not powered down.
Almog tried to get me to play a t17 clanner on a map which was not 2 level cave and i refused. Now i am looking at myself in the mirror and im ashamed! haha. Elite used to be played on any kind of map, caves and opens. You'd change your special weapon to make it fit. Now its always the open 2 island editted with majority of people using ss. What happened to cows and pigeons and hhgs. All good weapons to choice from... but the way we have made elite so 'chess' like as HHC says has taken some fun out of it.
I think we need a powerful t17 scheme, like the FB one, like the one ive got before that and like the one HHC made. (i still need to trail this and see how it is)
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To be honest I'd like a balanced Shopper scheme, but what I'd like even more is crates in Elite. I used to love that, skunks weren't as overpowered, when a crate landed you had to destroy/collect/ignore it, gave the whole thing more action imo.
Edit: I think I remember that I was all for removing crates when it was up for discussion at FB, but now that they've been gone for so long.. Chicken, you know what I mean right? :P
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The thing is about overpowered weapons in T17, to prevent this you need to girder everytime to not let your opponent come too close to you.
But with the 7 girders, you can't.
So, do you prefer prevent blockers by putting 7 girders, or let a chance to unlucky players to win by putting infinite ones ?
And finally someone gets the point!!!
See, allowing unlimited griders allows you to influence the luck. You want unlimited griders so you can defend when your not getting the fair share of bigger weapons. Also it allows you to control the cr8 zones.
With 7 griders the luck of cr8s in t17 is way more influencial.
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To be honest I'd like a balanced Shopper scheme, but what I'd like even more is crates in Elite. I used to love that, skunks weren't as overpowered, when a crate landed you had to destroy/collect/ignore it, gave the whole thing more action imo.
Edit: I think I remember that I was all for removing crates when it was up for discussion at FB, but now that they've been gone for so long.. Chicken, you know what I mean right? :P
ha
lets reintroduce cr8s to elite. Play on any random map. Not just 2 island fruits and while we are at it add 2 select worms to T17? ::)
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Play on any random map. Not just 2 island fruits::)
Enough tho, this would be so cool.
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but the way we have made elite so 'chess' like as HHC says has taken some fun out of it.
I resent that! Chess can be awesome if you're playing all or nothing
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why waste ur timing talking about it guys.... seriously.. nothing is going to change, dont try, dont bother, dont waste ur time... and dont get too excited... hate to be so negative, but thats just the way it is.. nothing is going to change... nothing.
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avi don't be a troll because your scheme got partially rejected. :P
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Eerk.. I'm not sure Avi is wrong there...
Or at least, it would take years.
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im not being a troll darkz... its just the reality of w:a... most of you think that because the scheme is "old" that its right... so nothing will ever change...
but if u enjoy talking about it, by all means, continue ;)
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most of you think that because the scheme is "old" that its right... so nothing will ever change...
I just love the irony in that statement :) As well as your previous post!
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most of you think that because the scheme is "old" that its right... so nothing will ever change...
I just love the irony in that statement :) As well as your previous post!
uhhhmmm.... duhhhh... what? where?
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f@#! I'm totally drunk it's 4 am and I met two f@#!ing hot german girl !!!!!!!!!
Worms is a game and even if you're the best of the world NO ONE CAREEEEEEEEeeee ! Soooooooooooo you should just let the random or whatever because it is so f@#!ing funnnnnnn !
I played some shit like comando with nail and it was sooo funnn couldn't stiooop playing it. It did remind me why I first loved thiss game and the older the game goes the less the innovation is coming. Wow don't know if it's english motherf@#!er i'm tooo drunk and i don't know what im doing here !!!!!!!!!!
Soo shut the f@#! up bitchesss and just enoy this game. Start to play some "noob" schemee 200000% luck and you'll find again how fun it is to play this game !
HHC I'm with you with WR it's just totally random buttt you have fun because it is like that !! I'm always like f@#! off I played this game for 10 years and you must be a 10 years old child but you pwn me bastard ! But this is funnnnnnnnnn :) !
Ok I guess tomorow I'll edit this f@#!ing post because I'm noot smart enough for the hight society of the glorious WA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Avi, he means w2 roper is older than any scheme on WA so it's ironic lol...
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i dont think he means that, being that w2 roper was never a scheme on w:a.. and half of you did not even know what it is.. (not u komo)
i think he means its ironic im telling people not to bother trying, after i made such a fuss about the w2roper....
but.... hes silly for saying that, cuz thats why im telling them not to bother, from my own personal experience.. nothing ironic about it.
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But w2 Rope is still years older than anything on WA and since you said:
"most of you think that because the scheme is "old" that its right... so nothing will ever change..."
It's quite funny cuz you said w2Rope is so much better than the normal one we use lol :D
Get it? ;) Haha
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i still dont get it... no...
i called it w2roper because it was closely related to the w2 roping settings, but it was not an exact match, like many people have pointed out "omg avi.. that not w2 roping scheme.. wheres, dyno, and destrucable land? and why 13 seconds? and wtf with tele first turn? and weaps first turn? and omg omg omg"
i think that was my biggest mistake when trying to introduce the scheme to the goons of w:a was calling it w2roping.. i should have named it...
"roperalagazam" thant it may have gottin the respect it deserved...
**avirex enters AnythingGoes**
avirex: roperalagazam anybody??
proroperguy: omg omg omg.. yea ya yes yes i love roperalagazam!! host plz!!
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Pffft, stop making excuses, you got owned and you know it, take it like a man :P
I'll have a roperalagazam though !
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As much as I know TuS is the most flexible and changeable league site ever existed for W:A. Since the beginning of TuS life all that MonkeyIsland did was listening to suggestions of players that use this site and tried to
make everyone happy adapt things to everyone's needs..
TuS did not came out with strict and rigid schemes and rules, it came out with open ears to everyone's suggestions and did changed lots of things from time to time and it's still changing.. But that doesn't mean that every suggestion will be accepted, because then it would have been a bit of mess and anarchy around..
TuS unlike some former W:A league sites have this beautiful feature: -wanna change something? ok, make a poll about it and if majority of users/players vote for that, it WILL be changed.
Polls and peoples votes counts here and with that feature TuS is the most democratic (in this word purest meaning) site. So it's really ain't like "things never changes here" - they really do, and users that's here for longer time are witnesses of that.
It has just turned out that you were not the best promoter of that change Avi, seems to me (and I could bet!) that "w2roper" would be voted "yes" by majority of players if someone else (with more sense for promotions) was promoting it.. ;)
But as Komo said, just get over it like a man, don't blame things around.. ;x
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f@#! I'm totally drunk it's 4 am and I met two f@#!ing hot german girl !!!!!!!!!
Worms is a game and even if you're the best of the world NO ONE CAREEEEEEEEeeee ! Soooooooooooo you should just let the random or whatever because it is so f@#!ing funnnnnnn !
I played some shit like comando with nail and it was sooo funnn couldn't stiooop playing it. It did remind me why I first loved thiss game and the older the game goes the less the innovation is coming. Wow don't know if it's english motherf@#!er i'm tooo drunk and i don't know what im doing here !!!!!!!!!!
Soo shut the f@#! up bitchesss and just enoy this game. Start to play some "noob" schemee 200000% luck and you'll find again how fun it is to play this game !
HHC I'm with you with WR it's just totally random buttt you have fun because it is like that !! I'm always like f@#! off I played this game for 10 years and you must be a 10 years old child but you pwn me bastard ! But this is funnnnnnnnnn :) !
Ok I guess tomorow I'll edit this f@#!ing post because I'm noot smart enough for the hight society of the glorious WA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i am in LOOOOOVE!!!!11 take me fada!
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TuS did not came out with strict and rigid schemes and rules
The application should have been/be.
EDIT: Haha, loved it too Fada, you're so right. :)
The thing is when people sees "league", they are not anymore playing for fun, but for win (why not banning all those people ? :] ).
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Rofl just read my post. I was indeed drunk lol. But it's really how I feel about all of this ^^.
Thanks dude, tonight I'm going out also. I might come to post some more trash here lol.
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To get on topic again: Any chances for the shoppa scheme and t17 scheme to be changed? I mean really, i never use them since the FB schemes are so much better, especially the t17 one...
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chakkman I really think FB Team17 is a boom boom scheme. But maybe its because I'm not used to boom boom :)
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Well that'll lead to a discussion about taste then... i just can say that the last 4 or 5 times i used the tus scheme i ended up getting handgun 3 times in a row and while having picked up like 70-80% of the crates i had a whole 2 sudden death weapons, like bird and rocket. xD I never ever had weaps like indian nuclear test or earthquake with it, i don't even know if they are in the TUS scheme... and imo T17 scheme lives from those weapons, they should not come too frequently but they should come once in a while. What's true is that FB scheme has too many nanas. But that's about the only thing i could criticize about it.
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If only we could all agree on something... :(
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Well that'll lead to a discussion about taste then... i just can say that the last 4 or 5 times i used the tus scheme i ended up getting handgun 3 times in a row and while having picked up like 70-80% of the crates i had a whole 2 sudden death weapons, like bird and rocket. xD I never ever had weaps like indian nuclear test or earthquake with it, i don't even know if they are in the TUS scheme... and imo T17 scheme lives from those weapons, they should not come too frequently but they should come once in a while. What's true is that FB scheme has too many nanas. But that's about the only thing i could criticize about it.
Lets hug and make up chakkman! I think thats one of the few times ive felt ive agreed with you! What with all the bng darksiding arguments in the past ;)
This is why i really wanna play HHC's scheme. its basically same as FB expect the nana chance is reduced to 1 instead of the standard 3.
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ramone, i rly dont give a shit about w2roper anymore... im just saying that no matter how much people discuss the schemes should change... there are never going to... no matter how much the schemes should be changed.. they wont...
and im not saying this because im bitter, im saying this because its the damn truth....
although, i do agree with you.. if someone else promoted the w2roper, it would have been more of a success, thats true... good job on picking up on that. +1
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ramone, i rly dont give a shit about w2roper anymore... im just saying that no matter how much people discuss the schemes should change... there are never going to... no matter how much the schemes should be changed.. they wont...
and im not saying this because im bitter, im saying this because its the damn truth....
although, i do agree with you.. if someone else promoted the w2roper, it would have been more of a success, thats true... good job on picking up on that. +1
Okkkkkkk I'mmmmmm drunk rifl !:!!!!
Avi I sooo respect yaa you're the shit dude !!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're the milf mother f@#!er shave your balls lover !!!!!
Use hhc leeet T17 scheme and use a real shopper scheme it's like the dumb rule some noob did add "first shoot in bng zook" it was funny since it's all bullshit but happily tus does not usee this shit !
peaceeee !!!!
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lmfao ty drunk fada :) appreciate it... i did not know i told my f@#!ing the mother story.. hahaha was such a good story tho :) did i tell u in a game, or on forums? i dont remember lol....
and yeah, nice drunk posts, u been having alot of these.. i <3 them. keep em up, stay young, keep the peace, spread the love! ;D
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ramone, i rly dont give a shit about w2roper anymore... im just saying that no matter how much people discuss the schemes should change... there are never going to... no matter how much the schemes should be changed.. they wont...
and im not saying this because im bitter, im saying this because its the damn truth....
although, i do agree with you.. if someone else promoted the w2roper, it would have been more of a success, thats true... good job on picking up on that. +1
Okkkkkkk I'mmmmmm drunk rifl !:!!!!
Avi I sooo respect yaa you're the shit dude !!!!!!!!!!!!!! You're the milf mother f@#!er shave your balls lover !!!!!
Use hhc leeet T17 scheme and use a real shopper scheme it's like the dumb rule some noob did add "first shoot in bng zook" it was funny since it's all bullshit but happily tus does not usee this shit !
peaceeee !!!!
aHAhauhuahhahahahah LOOOOOOOL½½!!
fada :-*
+1 for sure!
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f@#! I'm totally drunk it's 4 am and I met two f@#!ing hot german girl !!!!!!!!!
Worms is a game and even if you're the best of the world NO ONE CAREEEEEEEEeeee ! Soooooooooooo you should just let the random or whatever because it is so f@#!ing funnnnnnn !
I played some shit like comando with nail and it was sooo funnn couldn't stiooop playing it. It did remind me why I first loved thiss game and the older the game goes the less the innovation is coming. Wow don't know if it's english motherf@#!er i'm tooo drunk and i don't know what im doing here !!!!!!!!!!
Soo shut the f@#! up bitchesss and just enoy this game. Start to play some "noob" schemee 200000% luck and you'll find again how fun it is to play this game !
HHC I'm with you with WR it's just totally random buttt you have fun because it is like that !! I'm always like f@#! off I played this game for 10 years and you must be a 10 years old child but you pwn me bastard ! But this is funnnnnnnnnn :) !
Ok I guess tomorow I'll edit this f@#!ing post because I'm noot smart enough for the hight society of the glorious WA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDzDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
another +1 in 12h! roflmao fada!
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lol marc haha +1
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Well that'll lead to a discussion about taste then... i just can say that the last 4 or 5 times i used the tus scheme i ended up getting handgun 3 times in a row and while having picked up like 70-80% of the crates i had a whole 2 sudden death weapons, like bird and rocket. xD I never ever had weaps like indian nuclear test or earthquake with it, i don't even know if they are in the TUS scheme... and imo T17 scheme lives from those weapons, they should not come too frequently but they should come once in a while. What's true is that FB scheme has too many nanas. But that's about the only thing i could criticize about it.
Lets hug and make up chakkman! I think thats one of the few times ive felt ive agreed with you! What with all the bng darksiding arguments in the past ;)
This is why i really wanna play HHC's scheme. its basically same as FB expect the nana chance is reduced to 1 instead of the standard 3.
Well, the tus scheme does have earthquakes in it. I really can`t say what to do about this scheme, it`s so complicated. What I can say, is that HHC has been one of the best players in this scheme for over 10 years, he has played it since day ONE. He knows everthing about it, he wrote a damn nice tutorial seven years ago about the scheme, and in my opinion, his opinion should be VALUED highly in this case. HHC is team17, I`m not licking anyones butt here, but really, we should listen to the people who has the knowledge and experience over many leagues in this scheme. Those player, suchs ass HHC, C23, Avirex, Sacrificial Lamb, Dark, Anubis, Chakkman, Free, Almog, Random, Benz, Ropa, CJ and so on and so on. Listen to the players who knows what they are talking about, that`s my opinion.
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fair point, but im assuming that list also includes yourself right? :P
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My opinion is biased, I view things too objective... wait a moment... :P
I usually try to see the bigger picture, and sometimes that can be bad when it's important to judge some things within a smaller place. There are 2 worlds clashing and in my opinion you can't just say scheme 'abc' is better because its less luckier or it is more fun. Fun for example can be everything. So when so many people are trying to fix something like a scheme there are basically hundred ways of handling it.
And yeah, avirex is probably right. Past has proven that CHANGE is only something Obama can do. ;)
We are certainly good at talking, but doing isn't our strength. It's probably because there is too much effort in it. I tried to make some new rope scheme/s and I was hyped all up, but the feedback was rather low and people just don't really care. I think that Avirex more aggressive way of trying to change something is better than mine calmed way of changing something. :)
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fair point, but im assuming that list also includes yourself right? :P
No, I`m not that good in defaults to be fair! I consider myself as a roper
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fair point, but im assuming that list also includes yourself right? :P
No, I`m not that good in defaults to be fair! I consider myself as a roper
neither am i, never proclaimed to be, i was just applauding zippeurfou for something that made me laugh after reading the topic (his drunken posts) it doesn't mean i agree with what hes saying, i rarely play t17 elite etc, hell i barely know the rules hah
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And yeah, avirex is probably right. Past has proven that CHANGE is only something Obama can do. ;)
Nah man it's all changeable, of course U cannot change it "over the night" cause then everyone would like to change something and a bit of mess would appear.
Speaking of T17 scheme here, if anyone feels like changing it, present your "tweaked" scheme, ask ppl to try it, make a poll and be patient. If majority of users/players vote for it it WILL be changed. Simple as that.
I've managed to "tweak" bng scheme here, so I'm living example.. ;)
Just go for it!
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anubis is right, when he sez im right... thats right!
ps: this does not mean im against a better t17 scheme.. im just saying i doubt it will happen...
so for the record: im all for it :)
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well t17 is a scheme where there always will be a luck factor even if you edit it.
- random start positions -> sometimes the opponent is abled to plop a worm while u didnt had a turn yet (with bt/fp/db/drill). That always will be. Specially in 2on2's but yeh, then you just should block that area off but there are examples that they couldnt get the girder in such position.
- crates -> you never know which weapon is in which crate.. Even if you catch 30 cr8's and the opponent just 15 cr8's there is a chance that he got EQ + Patsy while you just got one pidgeon. Still I think if you noticed you catched the most crates and the opponent doesnt have such arsenal as you, you should try to do as much damage to him as possible and even then a scale of justice could screw your ideas and you are still left against one/two fat worms with no SD arsenal.
7 girders or unlimited girders.. 7 girders is a bit more speedy since the person which got the most HP/worms is abled to keep opening the opponent to put pressure on him and there will come a time he doesnt got girders anymore and then the game is ended pretty quickly. If you use unlimited girders you still can make a comeback if you didn't collect the right weapons or if you are screwed by some banana that he used on you before SD so you just stay on one side getting some crates and let SD decide the game.
Ofcourse the most important is to get the biggest cratezones, get the best side for the SD, edit your own tactic by the weapons u catched.
How about 'get rid of the banana's/vase/holy's? That won't work at all. Example: player1 did collect 1x pidgeon 1x aqua and you didn't collect ANY sd weapon and you only got 'low powered' weapons so you are also not abled to push him. IF you had this weapons u could even suggest to teleport to him to put pressure on him or let him think u got something terrible in your arsenal. If you would edit all those powers and strong weapons people would be just like 'ah, 50 damage of uzi.. I can deal with that'.
I really don't see a reason to edit the scheme. Some maybe prefer the FB scheme or the scheme of HHC but in the end its all down to the player and to your tactic. If you are a good t17 player you will get 75% of the crates at least and this will be enough to give you the advantage to win the game. Sometimes you just can't get the correct weapons out all those crates and the opponent hits the weapons he did need, well... That can happen! but that's what makes it fun. You never know how it will end because you can't look into the opponent his arsenal.
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[OffTopic] HHC, if you're as good as that, I wanna play vs you ! xP [/OffTopic]
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Loved your post unique!
uber ruined my +12 t17 streak!! What a bitch :(