The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: MonkeyIsland on April 23, 2012, 03:58 PM
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Hello,
I'll be releasing a new version of leagues at the start of season #27. It won't be a completely new plan since some of you wanna marry the current system/concept. But new calculations and new formulas will be added and there will be more angles to look at players' performances.
However in the next 2 months, I'll gather modifications in schemes as well.
Back to the subject of this topic, 3 years ago Intermediate was part of Classic and after debates, 50% of the community disagreed and long story short, we removed Intermediate from Classic league. I've opened this topic to see how today's community think about Intermediate and its worthiness to be in Classic league. Personally I think Intermediate is more accepted than before.
One of the common questions about Intermediate is that it is a bo3 game and it could take a while or that Classic league is a place for bo1 schemes.
A poll is attached to see how the general opinion is about. The vote result will be considered on how we treat Intermediate in the new plan. It is NOT about more vote and winning the poll.
If you think Intermediate must be here but must be tweaked first, please post your idea. Please note that by tweak I mean general rules of league regards Intermediate, NOT changing the scheme in a major way.
So do you think Intermediate must be in Classic league?
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Let me put my humble 2 cents into here. I'd like to see Intermediate now in Classic league but indeed tweaked. BO3 games might scary a lot of players and result in denying playing it. BO1 is one option and to make it as fair as possible, how about playing it with cavern map obligatory?
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Cavern doesnt neccesarly mean balance. Yes, statistically, when raped by placement, you will have more chances to force SD and wait for final blow just like on T17, but all that at the cost of entertainment. I personally find it silly (in most of the cases, coz sometimes the SD part in cavern is really tense). Bo1 island is lottery much more than any other competitive scheme, 1 unlucky placement will cost you a round no matter what when playing vs good player. On the other hand island has that depth which makes it much more fun than cavern to me. Best of 3 surely wont work, its easily 1h without draws.
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I enjoy inter, but by no means am i pro... So maybe this idea wont work for reasons i have not thought of...
But obviously bo3 is a problem for tus league, not many ppl wanna play 3 long games to only earn 1 win...
So why cant we change the random placement, and have tele placements? It will still be the same scheme, just less luck at the start....
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Yeah, I've got this in my mind, lacoste, that's why I said 'to make it as fair as possible'.
I agree that cavern maps are boring. What I wouldn't like to do it to tweak the scheme itself but it might be a necessity. Freezing select worm for the first turn (or turns) could partly protect the worm from multiple kills in certain cases (but again some luck must be done with proper placements). Same would go with a possibility to switch your worms with tab at the beginning of each turn, having this freezed for some time could be useful as well. But this sadly isn't possible without 3rd party tools like Wormkit or stuff I guess (I'm not really into it) and classic means classic without using additional tools, just raw WA.exe.
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I vote yes, cuz inter is the most popular scheme all time on worms etc etc. And make tele before start its very bad idea actually, place 16 worms will take time, and then kill them on their pr0 hides, this will take more time then play bo3
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intermediate YES, but only bo1.
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Intermediate just needs separate league (for best of 3/5) if you want it to be fair. Include it as best of 1 at the cost of inaccurate ratings or risk best of 3, where difference in game lenght is incomparable to other schemes. Scheme changes are out of the question, jeez.
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TenoriTaiga suggest playing bo1 with giving the option of refuse/restart the map for better placement. He said only one time refuse allowed.
bo3 length shouldn't be THAT much of a problem. Hysteria and BnG could take up an hour.
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TenoriTaiga suggest playing bo1 with giving the option of refuse/restart the map for better placement. He said only one time refuse allowed.
It could work in rough situations (like 3-4 worms being piled badly) but then it also brings other problems such as continous restarts even thought placement wasnt bad or that map after restart doesnt have to be better. Giving it a rule (to restart only in worst scenarios) will then produce complains, i bet.
bo3 length shouldn't be THAT much of a problem. Hysteria and BnG could take up an hour.
Id better compare it to t17 with draws - but then im not a fan of league t17. Hyst and BnG is long only when players want it to be long or miss every shot.
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intermediate and elite are schemes kinda similar.
so i believe intermediate dont deserve a place in classic league.
but i am curious about what TUS wants to say about it so i voted "yes" :)
ps: i love intermediate scheme :-*
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TenoriTaiga suggest playing bo1 with giving the option of refuse/restart the map for better placement. He said only one time refuse allowed.
One problem I can see with that is that in practice, you wouldn't only be refusing the placements, you would also be refusing the fact that it was your opponent who got first turn. And then if you got lucky and got first turn in the second round, your opponent could do the same and hope he gets first turn in the third round. So in the end, you aren't achieving a lot, just wasting even more time.
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Also there's been this idea around to make Intermediate to get picked only if both players agree on it. In playoffs it could be just as other schemes. But in normal games, opponent could refuse to play it.
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Also there's been this idea around to make Intermediate to get picked only if both players agree on it. In playoffs it could be just as other schemes. But in normal games, opponent could refuse to play it.
if opponent can ban us from picking intermediate, we should be allowed to ban a scheme from our opponent to pick?
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Though I'm not active right now (I do plan to come back later this year) I'd like to see Inter in Classic League again. It is a very skillful and versatile scheme, there's tons of tactics and hardskills like "notching" mines etc involved.
The problem with the obligatory bo3'ing could be solved if Inter had a wider point gain range, i.e. you win ~40 points for any scheme against an opponent with the same rating, but since Inter is bo3 you'd gain ~80 points for a win against opponents with same rating. Just a suggestion that could make it more worthwhile to waste a lot of time on a set. :)
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No. No. No.
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wow this discussion again.
I voted no, I think inter should have its own league on tus like onl. The only way I can see intermediate working as part of the classic league is if you play bo1 with placement. Many will argue that placement changes the scheme too much (which I know it does), but placement is the only way inter can become a part of the classic league imo.
To those who say "placement takes too much time", no it doesnt, it only takes twice as long as it would to place 8 worms in elite, it really isnt that much more time and as far as I can see this would be the only way of successfully incorporating it into the classic league, although I firmly believe inter does not belong in the classic league for reasons that have already been discussed time after time in thread after thread.
Bringing back TNL seems like the best thing to do if inter is to have a home on TUS, or try "tweaked" inter, bo1 with placement. Bo1 without placement will not work regardless of the map, and without bo3 minimum you cant play inter consistently competitively.
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What about random placement as it allready is... But with a rule to not attack first turn... Giving each player 1 turn to hide worms as needed? That would help out placement luck alot
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all this remasturbating of inter scheme will give only bad result, imagine some dario join and see new inter rules like "dont attack on 1st turn", will he play it? he'll probably will laugh. I think its better to keep bo3, and if both players agree play as bo1. You know, when you see you are much better then opponent, or otherwise rly wierder, if you have some kind of brain or its parody you would like to suggest for bo1 at least just to dont waste your time, but if you are sameskilled opponents it will be pretty fun to play bo3 at least since it pretty challengive :P
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imo, most of intermediate comunity will not play on new rules. there is onl, who want play inter can just go to onl and play exactly intermediate, but not cool/uncool modification...
i will say no more, other heroes will do this after me. only one thing: if u want ppl play your intermediate, not onl - keep the rules unchanged at all. try to get people interested in by something else...
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inter shud be random placements and bo3/bo5. if classic league doesn't accept inter as it is, then it's not the right place for inter. tnl or keep in freeleague? xD
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Difficult one MI. I think my vote also depends on what the new TUS is gonna be like and where Intermediate fits in there :)
In TUS as it is now, I'm inclined to say 'no'. Most people who like the scheme play it for ONL, and they play pretty much only 'Normal' scheme. They won't play for classic even if it's there, because they probably won't enjoy the TTRR and s*it :-[
Here's another suggestion:
Instead of moving all the popular schemes into classic, why not split them up into 2 seperate leagues. One league for die-hard 'skill' schemes, the other for 'lighter' schemes.
For example:
Classic: Roper, TTRR, WxW - Elite, BnG + 1 more default scheme (Normal, T17 or hyst)
Light: Roper, Shopper, Hysteria, Team17, Normal, Moleshopper, Aerial, Elite (with crates?)
I'm not sure how well this would work out in practice, as each member probably has his own favourite schemes he doesn't want to play or doesn't want to give up. But in potential it could be nice for the old-school hysteria-haters, as well as for newschoolers and newbies who prefer easier, 'lighter' schemes.
The light league could serve as a replacement for FreeLeague. Of course that means a whole bunch of schemes will have to disappear, but the league itself would definitely gain more appeal (right now it's a league for schemes people don't play enough... you can't expect that to become popular can you? :D)
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Guys, please stop considering manual placement as an option for intermediate. It wouldn't be even remotely the same scheme, every single worm would be hidden away and it would be extremely hard to get kills; people would just shotgun almost every turn. Most of the creativity in the scheme comes from dealing with worms in places you'd never intentionally put them. Most importantly, that would suck most of the fun right out of it.
Intermediate should use the NNNL scheme, which is what the most competitive players use. The competition continues to increase year by year with that scheme, so there's really no need to change it; it's already well-tested. I think it could work in the classic league like other schemes, as bo1 with optional bo3. This does change the scheme, because there are certain psychological elements of playing bo3 that you don't need in bo1, but the scheme would be equally fun, and still vastly more skillful/interesting than certain schemes (cough shoppa).
The reason it would have to be bo1 is just to make it playable, bo3 can last over an hour, which is going to be annoying for players who aren't all that interested in the scheme. To get more players to start liking inter, they have to actually play it; people who don't know or care about it might just not want to play if it's a huge time investment. But the level of interest is there, especially among a lot of newer Russian players who host inters constantly. If we could get some Russian-speaking wormers to get those new Russians to check out TUS, I think some might be interested and stick around, if they could play inter.
For people concerned about luck when it's bo1, here are some stats from some of the better players in NNNL (I think this covers the past year, not sure on the time frame):
| Player | % cave rounds won | % island rounds won |
| Mablak | 70 | 74 |
| Dario | 67 | 68 |
| Kayz | 59 | 65 |
| Koras | 65 | 69 |
| FaD | 55 | 59 |
As you can see, the best players in NNNL typically having winning ratios around 60% or higher in bo1, which in TUS would definitely translate to something like 80-90%, at least until the community gains skill. That seems pretty comparable to elite, where the top players in TUS classic tend to have winning ratios between 70% and 90%. It has the right level of skill, I don't think luck is nearly as big of an issue as some think.
On the idea of forcing caves in bo1, I don't think it's necessary, people will probably agree to them about half the time. Also, caves might be luck-reducing, but they might also be skill-reducing. Good players tend to have more wins on islands. Either way, it wouldn't be good to force one kind of map, since intermediate is about map diversity, and being good on both caves and islands.
TNL would be a decent idea, but only because it would allow inter clanners, the singles league wouldn't be necessary due to NNNL. Some 2v2 action might genuinely get some of the NNN folks over here. Still, it would be nice to see a more default-oriented main league, and inter would definitely raise the skill level, even with bo1.
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I'd play inter if I had to, to learn. but yea, at the current rate I think a lot people may never even attempt playing it just because how exclusive it is right now.
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Bring TNL again.
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Nice post Mab! I changed my vote to a yes. I joined the NNN league about three years ago I think, as I was interested in learning intermediate. In those three years, I have played one game in the league. I found it difficult being active in both XTC/TUS and NNNL.
I'm a bit surprised that the small community at NNN is still going strong, it says a lot about what a dedicated group of wormers that plays in that league. Worms has changed over the years, for example shoppa is not as popular as it used to be in the league and I belive intermediate atleast deserves the chance as a classic scheme. It's such a shame that so few of us knows how to play it (well). I also think adding intermediate to the classic league can bring the two communities a little bit closer.
I don't know how we should add it to the league, but talking about changing the scheme is nonsense. You can't change the scheme to make it fit into TUS. Take the scheme as it is, or leave it.
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For people concerned about luck when it's bo1, here are some stats from some of the better players in NNNL (I think this covers the past year, not sure on the time frame):
| Player | % cave rounds won | % island rounds won |
| Mablak | 70 | 74 |
| Dario | 67 | 68 |
| Kayz | 59 | 65 |
| Koras | 65 | 69 |
| FaD | 55 | 59 |
As you can see, the best players in NNNL typically having winning ratios around 60% or higher in bo1, which in TUS would definitely translate to something like 80-90%, at least until the community gains skill. That seems pretty comparable to elite, where the top players in TUS classic tend to have winning ratios between 70% and 90%. It has the right level of skill, I don't think luck is nearly as big of an issue as some think.
Those are overall statistics, but if you split it into who starts and vs who you play (in your case vs equal opponent) it would be pretty much in favor for who starts (also depending on placement - if its balanced then everything can happen). And as you said best of 3/5 has that psychological element which erases the luck factor of having only 1 game. Of course TUS would have to evolve first to notice differences between players who barely played it competively and having even bo1 is a good start to make people believe in the scheme and let them notice the awesomness. Not to mention the comparision to some other schemes in classic league, where Inter definitely stands above them as in fun to watch/skillful to play. So id say yes for popularizing the scheme in TUS classic at the cost having non balanced bo1 instead of having separate TUS league and risk in small activity again.
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I agree with lacoste, the stats you brought, Mablak, are only because the top of onl mostly plays bo5 and bo3, and have close games like 3-2, 2-1 etc.
If we only played bo1, those stats'd look a lot different.
Imo bo1 is the dumbest thing you can do on Intermediate, everyone will complain about triple kills on islands etc, and you'd have a lot of complains and luck blaming.
I very often had games with Dario, where it was 2-3, or 3-2, depending who started. For example: I start, big advantage, after the first two turns, high chance on win, and vice versa (especially on islands).
On caves this chance is lower, but then I know some people playing regularly on TUS who hate caves, because they consider it boring, though for me epic close cave matches are far more interesting than just island bashing until someone makes a mistake, but that's different for everyone :).
As far as I recall the classic league, Intermediate doesn't really fit into it, since it's way more fast-paced.
I don't think that people who don't know Intermediate that well have the motivation to play a bo3 game.
Since I am no TUS league player, I won't vote here, just wanted to show you the point of view of a passionate Intermediate player :)
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if intermediate bo1 have no sense as u said so we have an answer here i think.
bo3 games just dont fit completly to classic league.
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if intermediate bo1 have no sense as u said so we have an answer here i think.
bo3 games just dont fit completly to classic league.
i agree with this
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I agree with lacoste, the stats you brought, Mablak, are only because the top of onl mostly plays bo5 and bo3, and have close games like 3-2, 2-1 etc.
If we only played bo1, those stats'd look a lot different.
Imo bo1 is the dumbest thing you can do on Intermediate, everyone will complain about triple kills on islands etc, and you'd have a lot of complains and luck blaming.
I very often had games with Dario, where it was 2-3, or 3-2, depending who started. For example: I start, big advantage, after the first two turns, high chance on win, and vice versa (especially on islands).
On caves this chance is lower, but then I know some people playing regularly on TUS who hate caves, because they consider it boring, though for me epic close cave matches are far more interesting than just island bashing until someone makes a mistake, but that's different for everyone :).
As far as I recall the classic league, Intermediate doesn't really fit into it, since it's way more fast-paced.
I don't think that people who don't know Intermediate that well have the motivation to play a bo3 game.
Since I am no TUS league player, I won't vote here, just wanted to show you the point of view of a passionate Intermediate player :)
I think bo1 being the 'dumbest thing' is far from true, considering people have proposed things like manual placements. The only differences between the way bo1 and bo3 are played are psychological factors, things like players getting warmed up after the first round, or getting used to someone's style, or having a strong urge to come back. There's a difference, but not that huge of one.
And yeah there'll be a lot of complaining about luck, but it'll lessen if people start playing the scheme more. Compared to other schemes, I don't think it would be that bad, people have never stopped complaining about luck in Roper, Hysteria, and Team17.
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ok ok, tele placement was a bad idea... im not inter player, i was just brain storming :D you brought up points i did not consider, yes horrible idea....
but what about a no attack first turn rule?? or is that horrible as well?? i just think it would give each team a chance to hide the "luck placed" worms...
maybe changing the scheme in ANY way is a bad idea...
but if no one really agrees it should be a bo1 (accept mablak) maybe it does not fit in TUS...
i do wanna see inter in the classic league, i think it belongs, but i cant ever imagine playing 3 semi-long games to determine the winner of 1 game.
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Quoting myself from the very first post of this topic:
If you think Intermediate must be here but must be tweaked first, please post your idea. Please note that by tweak I mean general rules of league regards Intermediate, NOT changing the scheme in a major way.
I'm considering the option of refusing Intermediate (or giving one time refuse to all schemes). Any major flaw with that?
I think the troubles bo1 will bring is more than the troubles of long bo3 games.
@darKz, you know the very first TUS system gave Intermediate base points 60, instead of 40 because of bo3.
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Well Mablak I meant the dumbest thing without changing the scheme itself,
I wanna see you playing a serious bo1 game, maybe in the next playoffs? ;) Have fun.
I never even spent a second thinking about the proposed stuff like manual placement or "1st turn no attack".
TNL was stupid enough already, when some people didn't understand how SD worked and blamed the game instead their own tactics. :(
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It should be bo3, but Intermediate shouldn't be played as a one's clan pick, both clans must agree to play it and must get points depending on the result (more points for 2:0 win, less for 2:1). For me it's obvious that people won't vote for Intermediate while they are forced to play it; and even if both sides agree to play bo3, the winner will gain 20-30 points for a 1 hour game, it's senseless. That's why I voted "no" (I don't want MI to do some extra job to add a scheme most people won't even play hehe).
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Ye getting hundreds of points for 15-0 in short lasting schemes is way "smarter" indeed instead "wasting" time on long Inter matches, if you want to get into playoffs. :D
That's why I still think the scheme won't fit here, unless changes in the league system happen, no offense, I won't criticize it :)
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Ye getting hundreds of points for 15-0 in short lasting schemes is way "smarter" indeed instead "wasting" time on long Inter matches, if you want to get into playoffs. :D
That's why I still think the scheme won't fit here, unless changes in the league system happen, no offense, I won't criticize it :)
its obvious inter and tus will never come together :D
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Yes Kayz, TUS points/ratings system is it's key feature. People need a motivation to play some scheme here. Points = motivation. Otherwise host Normal1vs1 on ag and get fun :)
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Doesn't seem like you understand what I meant.
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just leave it where it is atm !
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Asking whether inter is worth being in classic league sounds a bit ridiculous, for it should probably be the first scheme to think of as such. But sadly intermediate has had a rough reputation as a "noob scheme", because it is very popular among the beginners and also because the NNN clan successfully isolated itself from the rest of the community years ago. Now times has changed and I'm glad to see many of the long time league players taking a more mature approach on the tus-inter issue than last time it was discussed. I only hope it's because they got a taste of the scheme and maybe found out that it's not as luck dependent as the thought. :)
Now on topic. So far the votes are quite even. For me that's already reason enough to put it in. My understanding is that if a poll made nearly every scheme would find enough haters to get about 50% no-votes. For myself I hate hysteria like f@#!ing hell and don't have the slightest idea why it is in classic league, but I never made a topic asking to remove it. That's just something I have to deal with. And if some inter disliking guys get it picked against them they should suck it up and understand that world doesn't always satisfy their ego's demands.
The real question ought to be: best of 1 or best of 3? And it's a tought one. I very aware of the fact that bo3 for one pick is just too much to handle for some people. Statik suggested the be able to veto intermediate and I completely disagree with him. Poeple should be able to veto every scheme then, not only inter, but if we really do this this league becomes a "what my opponent wants me to pick" league, which is stupid. However what about having a possibility to veto against bo3 and if done so you play a bo1. Despite common believe bo1 inter is quite playable provided e.g.people choose a tight map. Furthermore I like Avi's idea of the no attack first turn rule (of course for you have to delay special weapons a bit more then, especially cows).
If a bo3 played then all rounds are taken into account, not winner takes all.
So what are the thoughts on being eligible to veto against bo3 (a bo1 played instead then) and if vetoed then maybe no attack first turn (only if bo1)? Or something.
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I don't think no attack is a good idea, mainly because inter is not supposed to have any rules. This rule could be violated on accident by activating mines, causing FD, etc., and in addition to that, if you would be able to do things like lay mines, shoot petrol, or girder/block worms; you'd have to have even more explanation for those things. It would quickly become unnecessarily complicated.
And yeah Kayz, I would have fun just playing bo1. Just because bo3 is better doesn't mean bo1 isn't worth playing. Also, like other schemes, people would be free to play it as bo3 whenever they wish.
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I didn't talk about fun, I talked about fairness in serious games, and I thought this here is about a "league". Sorry but you can't tell me you'd consider a bo1 game for playoffs to determine who is the better player. In a cave sometimes yes, but I've already mentioned the problems of caves for some people. And "not attacking in the first turn" is also dumb, and I agree with not having rules in Inter at all, except bug abusing.
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TUS isn't 100% about seriousness, which is why it has some of the schemes it does. And yeah I would be fine playing a bo1 intermediate in classic playoffs, it's a hell of a lot better than having to play shoppa or hysteria.
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I'm sorry, the whole foundation of Intermediate is driving me crazy the more I think about it.
How exactly does Bo3 even fix everything anyway? Bo3 prolongs the same underlying issues over multiple games. Has this ever been discussed before?
Worm Placement luck and First luck aren't even eliminated by Bo3. Awful placements don't disappear just because of Bo3, they can still happen, multiple times in a row. And going First doesn't just get cancelled out due to Bo3, because someone still gets an advantage of going First twice.
Am I the only one who doesn't understand this about Intermediate? There has to be something to make Bo1 Intermediate work. Because I fail to see how Bo3 is the best solution. It can't be.
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The main idea behind bo3 is that both guys have the first turn of the round at least once. That sort of makes up bad for positions. Not always tho.
Under certain circumstanced bo1 inter is playable, too. Well, my vote is yes for any best of n.
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I'm sorry, the whole foundation of Intermediate is driving me crazy the more I think about it.
How exactly does Bo3 even fix everything anyway? Bo3 prolongs the same underlying issues over multiple games. Has this ever been discussed before?
answer:
bo3 minimizes the effects of first luck. if it was bo1 and ur opponent starts and gains better chances to win because he started first, u r f@#!ed. but since it's bo3 u know u r gonna start that 2nd round, in 2nd round u might get a great chance for winning just because u started
Worm Placement luck and First luck aren't even eliminated by Bo3. Awful placements don't disappear just because of Bo3, they can still happen, multiple times in a row. And going First doesn't just get cancelled out due to Bo3, because someone still gets an advantage of going First twice.
answer:
the decider could be played in cavern, this minimizes the luck behind awful placements
Am I the only one who doesn't understand this about Intermediate? There has to be something to make Bo1 Intermediate work. Because I fail to see how Bo3 is the best solution. It can't be.
that is what I understood
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both guys have the first turn of the round at least once. That sort of makes up bad for positions. Not always tho.
Someone still gets an advantage of Going First twice. Bo3 can't be considered the best solution. There must be some way to lessen the advantage of Going First to make Bo1 Intermediate work.
Husk says "he started first, u r f@#!ed" and "u r gonna start that 2nd round, in 2nd round u might get a great chance for winning just because u started" --> Why isn't there discussion to fix this underlying issue of starting first? What is the point of prolonging this issue in a Bo3? Whoever starts first gets to start twice, so you just go back to your first line "he started first (twice), u r f@#!ed".
I repeat, there must be some way to fix this huge flaw in the scheme. Not with Bo3.
edit: Shouldn't the focus be on figuring out how to make Bo1 Intermediate work, not necessarily just defending Bo3 because it's tradition?
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The only differences between the way bo1 and bo3 are played are psychological factors, things like players getting warmed up after the first round, or getting used to someone's style, or having a strong urge to come back.
This and... your physical mood (maybe it sounds silly but it is a huge factor). Mistakes in Inter play huge role in winning a game. Having more games you simply have more chances to fail. The better player is also the one who can control the game at any time and longer. I for example can have 1 perfect round with very hard moves performed and the next game can be total diseaster - that doesnt apply to ie. Mablak as often, thats also (among other things) why hes at the top.
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I'm sorry, the whole foundation of Intermediate is driving me crazy the more I think about it.
How exactly does Bo3 even fix everything anyway? Bo3 prolongs the same underlying issues over multiple games. Has this ever been discussed before?
Worm Placement luck and First luck aren't even eliminated by Bo3. Awful placements don't disappear just because of Bo3, they can still happen, multiple times in a row. And going First doesn't just get cancelled out due to Bo3, because someone still gets an advantage of going First twice.
Am I the only one who doesn't understand this about Intermediate? There has to be something to make Bo1 Intermediate work. Because I fail to see how Bo3 is the best solution. It can't be.
Franz, bo1 intermediate does work in my opinion, even though it's not as good as bo3. You simply have to gain a lot of skill to learn how to deal with poor placement, and know what kind of maps are best.
The reason bo3 adds more skill to the scheme is because of mental issues, you have to become more of a 'clutch player', winning rounds when you really need to. And of course, you have to know how to change how safe/risky your move choices are depending on how much you need to win a given round. Players like me, Dario, and Koras often have 60-90 bo3 wins and only a handful of losses in an NNNL season, partly because of this. And partly just because adding more rounds in any scheme means the more skillful players will come out on top more often.
But actually going-first-luck is evened out significantly with bo3, especially since a lot of bo3 games only last 2 rounds. Click on any NNNL player's name here: http://www.normalnonoobs.com/index2.php?func=profilesAll and you'll see that every player (with more than a few games played) will have started on caves and islands at a nearly equal percentage.
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Well, I changed my mind. It can be bo1 during the season. There is a 50% chance to start first, so if you don't start first in the 1st game, you will probably do it next time. In 1000 games about ~500 times one will start first, but it doesn't mean all other games will be lost. For playoffs it should be bo3 or bo5 IMO, so both players/clans will have a chance to start first. But I still vote no haha ;D
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Nah, If decided to accept bo1 inter then keep bo1 in play offs as well. Too bad it wasn't added to the current season for a probation period of three seasons or something. Afterwards you can still make another poll.
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O= who starts first twice is not so big deal if the decider is played in cavern, usually the better player wins then
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I voted yes. Remember pre match agreements? - If someone isn't willing to play your pick of inter which is bo3. Find another opponent who is and will accept before the start of the first game is played.
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Tus classic needs less schemes. Not more.
Intermediate has never been a consistent part of leagues with lots of people playing it. Its a specialist scheme. In the overall community there is few that are really good at it. The scheme will have a HUGE advantage to the few that are good at it compared to the community. Added the scheme will screw up the whole league dynamic in my opinion.
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Partial solutions:
-Instead of playing 1 round, always play 2 and report as separated games in the order they were played.
-Add extra in-game rules like "you can choose to restart the round before you move in your first turn".
Possible negative side effects of reducing the number of rounds to 2 or 1 per game:
-People might turn too careful with terrain choice: reduces the variability in the terrains played, reduces the variability of situations you'll have to face as a player (in the way I see intermediate, variability is the most outstanding attribute) . Might even turn the games into pure shotgun wars if the players start editing elite-like terrains to play in. Might end up playing only islands or only caves.
-Takes away the chance to check enemy team worms order and special weapon in first round and use it to your advantage in second round. Loses part of it's tactical side.
Luck will always be part of this and any scheme (even in a battle race the result can depend on sub-pixel alignment that is uncontrollable to the player). But keep in mind that a top intermediate player can (and usually does) achieve a >90% winning ratio (in rounds) against average players.
Hope this added something to the discussion.
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-Instead of playing 1 round, always play 2 and report as separated games in the order they were played.
Best idea yet. Have Intermediate be a two round scheme in TUS, with an optional decider if both players agree to play it. This way starting-first luck will be even in a single duel as well as spread over the entire season, and you give players who want to play proper Bo3 matches an opportunity to do so as well.
Two rounds of Inter can take between 20 and 50 minutes, that's more or less comparable with BnG. Sounds good to me.
-People might turn too careful with terrain choice: reduces the variability in the terrains played, reduces the variability of situations you'll have to face as a player (in the way I see intermediate, variability is the most outstanding attribute) . Might even turn the games into pure shotgun wars if the players start editing elite-like terrains to play in. Might end up playing only islands or only caves.
Also yes, someone should do something about those ridiculous Elite maps. :-X
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Also yes, someone should do something about those ridiculous Elite maps. :-X
Elite is already poisoned to the bones. If someone would try to bring it into Intermediate on TUS id ban from internet if i could. So an additional rule would be welcom'd here - Use only randomly generated complex maps.
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inter just will not work as part of the classic league, thats all! As good as this discussion is, it just won't work, most classic players do not want to play intermediate, let alone 2 or 3 rounds. As much as I respect the scheme, it really does not belong to the classic league and I think the voting so far reflects this. Bring back TNL, merge ONL, just dont add it to the classic league as we tried it before and it didnt work and I dont see it working if we try again.
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Tus classic needs less schemes. Not more.
Intermediate has never been a consistent part of leagues with lots of people playing it. Its a specialist scheme. In the overall community there is few that are really good at it. The scheme will have a HUGE advantage to the few that are good at it compared to the community. Added the scheme will screw up the whole league dynamic in my opinion.
We do have too many schemes, which is why scheme classes would be a huge help. But for the time being, shoppa is hardly played and could easily be removed to make room for inter. To call it a specialist scheme in the same way the RR or SSing are specialist schemes is quite absurd though; inter contains most of the essence of the game, it's the height of default schemes, and default is what most people come to worms for.
Some people starting off having an advantage is no reason to keep it out of the league if it's a worthy scheme. I'll even avoid playing inter in clanners for a while if people want a more fair match. But most of NNNL won't bother coming over here, the majority of TUS players will be on equal footing.
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inter just will not work as part of the classic league, thats all! As good as this discussion is, it just won't work, most classic players do not want to play intermediate, let alone 2 or 3 rounds. As much as I respect the scheme, it really does not belong to the classic league and I think the voting so far reflects this. Bring back TNL, merge ONL, just dont add it to the classic league as we tried it before and it didnt work and I dont see it working if we try again.
Why don't we test it and see? TUS isn't a 100% serious league, so who cares if it doesn't get played much and has to be removed after a season or two, there is lots of room to try things out. All we have to do is replace shopper with inter, I'm sure inter can exceed that level of activity.
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the poll is kind of weird.. where is the option for: yes - bo1 is fine?
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bo1 = scheme change ;O
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i agree, thats why i have not voted yet... (all though i have been following the thread)
Mablak: you made valid points about why there should not be placements, and i totally agree.... but besides that fact that you die hard inter. lovers do not want to see the scheme changed, or rules added.....
what do you think of a rule "no attack first turn" ... someone here (too lazy to go back and see who it was) thought it was a decent idea...
can you think of any negatives to this?? it would reduce the placement luck.. maybe one team will be forced (if chooses to) to use more "switch worms" then another, but i would much rather use a couple switches then lose worms in my first turn...
I think its a good idea, but again.. im not an inter expert by any means... maybe im missing obvious setbacks with this, as i did the idea of manual placement...
but if the only reason not to have this rule is because the die hard inters dont wanna see rules changed..... thats not a very good reason in my eyes, especially being you dont think NNL players will even bother playing TUS regardless.
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***OFF TOPIC***
this is the only way i know how to get a hold of you Mablak... hauhauah
come to AG lets clanner, you too shyputo
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inter just will not work as part of the classic league, thats all! As good as this discussion is, it just won't work, most classic players do not want to play intermediate, let alone 2 or 3 rounds. As much as I respect the scheme, it really does not belong to the classic league and I think the voting so far reflects this. Bring back TNL, merge ONL, just dont add it to the classic league as we tried it before and it didnt work and I dont see it working if we try again.
Why don't we test it and see? TUS isn't a 100% serious league, so who cares if it doesn't get played much and has to be removed after a season or two, there is lots of room to try things out. All we have to do is replace shopper with inter, I'm sure inter can exceed that level of activity.
Well we tested it before, and it didnt work out!
Sure we can try again... but to me this whole thread seems like a big waste of time when we consider the majority of people playing the classic league dont want intermediate as part of the classic league. Im all for inter being played, its a great scheme, but it needs bo3 minimum, it needs its own league, as ive said bring back TNL, merge ONL so TUS guys can see how competitive it is and what a beautiful scheme it is. As for replacing shopper with inter, why? Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.
I still stand by my idea... bo1 with placement. It would be a big tweak, change the dynamics a lot but the scheme would still work and to me it seems the only way of incorporating it into the classic league. I saw people turning their nose up at this idea, dno why, I understand schemes, I understand its a big change, but it seems the only way of doing things if you want it as part of the classic league. It would definitely be interesting.
I dont know why im bothering though, because I dont want it in the classic league and nor do I think the majority of classic league players want it in the classic league. We shouldn't be discussing this, we should be discussing what is going to replace TEL. Like I said despite the good points, this thread seems like a waste of time when im almost certain the majority of players dont want inter in the classic league and im confident the voting will reflect this (if it hasnt already). We should also consider the fact that loads of tus players wont even bother voting, or even read this thread.
I saw this thread and faceplamed because I thought "here we go again", its inevitable to me that the majority of players won't want it in the classic league so I braced myself for a big old debate that in the end is just futile. I also dont like the sudden shake up over "scheme classes", sprung about due to a "I hate hyst thread", seems like that one thread is leading to lots of spin off threads when no shake up is required, league is fine the way it is imo, I see no problems.
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Tus classic needs less schemes. Not more.
Intermediate has never been a consistent part of leagues with lots of people playing it. Its a specialist scheme. In the overall community there is few that are really good at it. The scheme will have a HUGE advantage to the few that are good at it compared to the community. Added the scheme will screw up the whole league dynamic in my opinion.
We do have too many schemes, which is why scheme classes would be a huge help. But for the time being, shoppa is hardly played and could easily be removed to make room for inter. To call it a specialist scheme in the same way the RR or SSing are specialist schemes is quite absurd though; inter contains most of the essence of the game, it's the height of default schemes, and default is what most people come to worms for.
Some people starting off having an advantage is no reason to keep it out of the league if it's a worthy scheme. I'll even avoid playing inter in clanners for a while if people want a more fair match. But most of NNNL won't bother coming over here, the majority of TUS players will be on equal footing.
People having a huge advantage is a more then an adequate reason for keeping a scheme out of the classic league.
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Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.
But more right than Intermediate? Why?
If you're going to assume that there are people out there who play TUS but won't vote in this poll even though they'd vote against Inter, someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already.
People having a huge advantage is a more then an adequate reason for keeping a scheme out of the classic league.
It's definitely no worse than the advantage notchers and cheaters (I'm counting markings and stuff here, do not be alarmed) have in BnG. If anything, the people good at Intermediate earned their advantage more fairly, through studying the game and practice as opposed to learning a system handed to them by someone else. Just sayin'.
Also, it's not like there isn't quite a few more or less high profile members of TUS who are good at the scheme already. Aside from Mab, DarÃo and the rest of NNN, I can think of at least barman, Chicken, Coste, Cueshark, Freeman, Husk and NAiL who have played quite a bit of Inter in the past. Thanks to their experience in other schemes, they were able to reach a high level at it very quickly and I don't see why the rest couldn't do the same.
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Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.
But more right than Intermediate? Why?
If you're going to assume that there are people out there who play TUS but won't vote in this poll even though they'd vote against Inter, someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already.
KRD, I clearly stated my reasoning for not wanting inter in the classic league.
My primary reason is that the majority of classic league players dont want it there. I dont assume people who play TUS won't vote, I know they dont because whenever there is a poll the number of votes NEVER adds up to the actual number of people who are playing tus (even in that one season).
You say people might start playing TUS because of inter, I doubt that. As Mab already said the die hard inter guys already play it on ONL, they play ONL because they dont like other schemes, only Inter! Sure, there may be the odd person who starts playing TUS CLASSIC because of inter, but everyone who is into inter is already playing inter on ONL and have been for years.
"someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already."
I really dont think so, has there even been one person in this thread who has said they will start playing if inter is added? There hasnt (correct me if im wrong), even if they did, just look at the voting, they are already outnumbered.
YES, shopper does have more right to be there because its always been there, the majority of players want it there, its bo1. Intermediate has not been a part of the classic league in any league ever before (except on tus and it failed). Now I like inter, I used to play ONL as you said, but it just doesnt work as part of a classic league when you need to play more than one round. This isnt me not wanting it because I dont like it, I dont want it because it doesnt work. Im all for brining back TNL or merging ONL, but we tried inter in the classic league and it didnt work and its not going to work if we try again for reasons that have been discussed time n time again.
Intermediate is not popular enough amongst the majority of TUS CLASSIC players to warrant it being given a place in the classic league, shopper is. If everyone was willing to play an hour long bo3 game of inter then it would work, as we can see by the votes (and what happened when inter was a part of tus classic) people are not always willing to play bo3 and I dont blame them. Personally, if everyone was happy to play bo3 I'd love inter to be part of the classic league. From past experience I know this not to be true, so no matter what id like I can see it wont work. Intermediate was a part of the classic league when TUS first started (you wernt around then), and it didnt work. I realise that this thread discusses potential changes to make it work, yet we cant agree on the changes, the community is divided as shown by the votes. This isnt my personal bias... im just being logical here.
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Shopper has as much right to be there as any other scheme and I dont see the logic of replacing it with a completely different scheme.
But more right than Intermediate? Why?
If you're going to assume that there are people out there who play TUS but won't vote in this poll even though they'd vote against Inter, someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already.
KRD, I clearly stated my reasoning for not wanting inter in the classic league.
My primary reason is that the majority of classic league players dont want it there. I dont assume people who play TUS won't vote, I know they dont because whenever there is a poll the number of votes NEVER adds up to the actual number of people who are playing tus (even in that one season).
You say people might start playing TUS because of inter, I doubt that. As Mab already said the die hard inter guys already play it on ONL, they play ONL because they dont like other schemes, only Inter! Sure, there may be the odd person who starts playing TUS CLASSIC because of inter, but everyone who is into inter is already playing inter on ONL and have been for years.
"someone is sooner or later going to point out that there's likely an even larger number of people who don't even play TUS currently but might start if Intermediate becomes an option. In fact, this has probably been mentioned already."
I really dont think so, has there even been one person in this thread who has said they will start playing if inter is added? There hasnt (correct me if im wrong), even if they did, just look at the voting, they are already outnumbered.
YES, shopper does have more right to be there because its always been there, the majority of players want it there, its bo1. Intermediate has not been a part of the classic league in any league ever before (except on tus and it failed). Now I like inter, I used to play ONL as you said, but it just doesnt work as part of a classic league when you need to play more than one round. This isnt me not wanting it because I dont like it, I dont want it because it doesnt work. Im all for brining back TNL or merging ONL, but we tried inter in the classic league and it didnt work and its not going to work if we try again for reasons that have been discussed time n time again.
Intermediate is not popular enough amongst the majority of TUS CLASSIC players to warrant it being given a place in the classic league, shopper is. If everyone was willing to play an hour long bo3 game of inter then it would work, as we can see by the votes (and what happened when inter was a part of tus classic) people are not always willing to play bo3 and I dont blame them. Personally, if everyone was happy to play bo3 I'd love inter to be part of the classic league. From past experience I know this not to be true, so no matter what id like I can see it wont work. Intermediate was a part of the classic league when TUS first started (you wernt around then), and it didnt work. I realise that this thread discusses potential changes to make it work, yet we cant agree on the changes, the community is divided as shown by the votes. This isnt my personal bias... im just being logical here.
What are you talking about Nail? Currently the majority appear to want it in. Poll says 26 want it versus 25 who don't, and among those 25 there are surely some who would at least try it out, and there are also some who assume it'd have to be bo1 or bo3 and don't like the particular option they've assumed. But granted, not as many people vote in these polls as we want, and not all of them have the greatest idea of what's best for the community.
You've got to think long term, we always need new blood. We have shopper in the league mostly to lure in those fresh noobies. But it's not working out at the moment, as MI has said its activity is way low. Inter has similar potential to lure in newcomers, and it's one of the most hosted schemes. Looking at HostingBuddy statistics shows Inter is the 2nd most hosted, and Shopper is the 1st: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html.
If shopper's not working out right now, we should try inter again. As I've said before, there's an ever-growing Russian community that loves intermediate, and we have the potential to grab some of them. And now I think bo2 would be a good compromise between bo3 and bo1, as Dario suggested. MI would just have to find some way for us to report 1-1 outcomes. bo2 would ensure the average match lasts about 35 mins, probably on par with T17.
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C'mon man. Adding any scheme to the tus league is not going to add any activity.
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What are you talking about Nail? Currently the majority appear to want it in. Poll says 26 want it versus 25 who don't, and among those 25 there are surely some who would at least try it out, and there are also some who assume it'd have to be bo1 or bo3 and don't like the particular option they've assumed. But granted, not as many people vote in these polls as we want, and not all of them have the greatest idea of what's best for the community.
You've got to think long term, we always need new blood. We have shopper in the league mostly to lure in those fresh noobies. But it's not working out at the moment, as MI has said its activity is way low. Inter has similar potential to lure in newcomers, and it's one of the most hosted schemes. Looking at HostingBuddy statistics shows Inter is the 2nd most hosted, and Shopper is the 1st: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html.
If shopper's not working out right now, we should try inter again. As I've said before, there's an ever-growing Russian community that loves intermediate, and we have the potential to grab some of them. And now I think bo2 would be a good compromise between bo3 and bo1, as Dario suggested. MI would just have to find some way for us to report 1-1 outcomes. bo2 would ensure the average match lasts about 35 mins, probably on par with T17.
You quoted my whole post but only responded to one point. I responded to your point about replacing shopper with inter and how that isnt fair. The majority does not want it, if you say that out of the people who voted no outright some will try it, out of the people who voted yes but only bo3, some of those people are not going to play without bo3, and out of those who voted "yes but it needs tweaking", some of those will not play because it all depends on what the tweaks are. We can see people have reacted negatively to proposed "tweaks" and they won't play if they aren't happy with the scheme. Im counting the "yes but only bo3" votes as obsolete because bo3 inter is NOT going to be part of the classic league and we all know that.
The main point I made was that we tried intermediate as part of the classic league before, you could choose how many rounds you wanted to play, it didnt work. It isnt fair to force people to play two rounds if they dont want to, im repeating myself here, it just wont work. I agree with dub, I cannot see how adding intermediate to the classic league is going to attract new players. Everyone who wants to play it competitively is already doing so on ONL, and most of those players have no interest in playing other schemes. Repeating myself.. it wont work, we tried it before and it didnt work, what we should be discussing is what is going to replace TEL. These russian guys... they will join TUS just to pick inter in the classic league and then be forced to play ttrr and wxw..? Just dont see it working.
Id like TNL to come back or ONL to merge with TUS as I keep saying, I think thats best for intermediate on TUS.
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Yeah these russian guys...
Maybe you don't see it working, but I do. In fact I know people who'd join TUS and play fairly actively in it without complaining about having to play other schemes as well.
Also, you last point is pretty narrow minded. If somebody is new to worms, learns wxw, sticks to it and joins tus (and yeah this happens often enough) then suddenly a wild Phantom appears and picks hysteria. Now explain me how it's okay to be forced to play other schemes if you a are eg a WxW player and why is it different with Inter pickers. I'll go even further and say that many of players who joined TUS years ago still stick to one to two schemes they like and feel raped mentally (exaggeration) when people pick schemes they don't like. Yet TUS works pretty well for them.
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What are you talking about Nail? Currently the majority appear to want it in. Poll says 26 want it versus 25 who don't, and among those 25 there are surely some who would at least try it out, and there are also some who assume it'd have to be bo1 or bo3 and don't like the particular option they've assumed. But granted, not as many people vote in these polls as we want, and not all of them have the greatest idea of what's best for the community.
You've got to think long term, we always need new blood. We have shopper in the league mostly to lure in those fresh noobies. But it's not working out at the moment, as MI has said its activity is way low. Inter has similar potential to lure in newcomers, and it's one of the most hosted schemes. Looking at HostingBuddy statistics shows Inter is the 2nd most hosted, and Shopper is the 1st: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.html.
If shopper's not working out right now, we should try inter again. As I've said before, there's an ever-growing Russian community that loves intermediate, and we have the potential to grab some of them. And now I think bo2 would be a good compromise between bo3 and bo1, as Dario suggested. MI would just have to find some way for us to report 1-1 outcomes. bo2 would ensure the average match lasts about 35 mins, probably on par with T17.
You quoted my whole post but only responded to one point. I responded to your point about replacing shopper with inter and how that isnt fair. The majority does not want it, if you say that out of the people who voted no outright some will try it, out of the people who voted yes but only bo3, some of those people are not going to play without bo3, and out of those who voted "yes but it needs tweaking", some of those will not play because it all depends on what the tweaks are. We can see people have reacted negatively to proposed "tweaks" and they won't play if they aren't happy with the scheme. Im counting the "yes but only bo3" votes as obsolete because bo3 inter is NOT going to be part of the classic league and we all know that.
The main point I made was that we tried intermediate as part of the classic league before, you could choose how many rounds you wanted to play, it didnt work. It isnt fair to force people to play two rounds if they dont want to, im repeating myself here, it just wont work. I agree with dub, I cannot see how adding intermediate to the classic league is going to attract new players. Everyone who wants to play it competitively is already doing so on ONL, and most of those players have no interest in playing other schemes. Repeating myself.. it wont work, we tried it before and it didnt work, what we should be discussing is what is going to replace TEL. These russian guys... they will join TUS just to pick inter in the classic league and then be forced to play ttrr and wxw..? Just dont see it working.
Id like TNL to come back or ONL to merge with TUS as I keep saying, I think thats best for intermediate on TUS.
Most of the bo3 people haven't considered bo2 yet, I'd count them as more likely 'yes' than 'no', but the poll doesn't matter that much. TNL would be fine, but it would only potentially add lasting activity for clanners (and probably only if the NNN players decide to try it), there wouldn't be much reason to play singles TNL when you can play NNNL. The reason I want it in classic league is to GET people to play it, and get some of the new players who already play it to check out TUS. Honestly, I don't see TNL being more active than TEL though.
As to why we need to try intermediate again, I said it: because of the ever-growing community of Russians/newer players who play it; the community has changed. When I'm playing intermediate with noobs, I direct them to NNNL when I remember to. I can't possibly tell them to check out TUS, because there'd be nothing they're familiar with there. I feel like that's a genuine reason to have it as an option. I would personally make an effort to tell newer players who are interested in intermediate to check out this site, and they would have a reason to stay.
But also, interest in the scheme is higher among the TUS regulars than it was last time. You've got Husk, Free, Barman, Lacoste, Random00, Thouson, Chicken, Titahemp, me, a lot more people would say they really like the scheme this time around. Things are different enough to say that it's worth a try.
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fair play mab^
Yeah these russian guys...
Maybe you don't see it working, but I do. In fact I know people who'd join TUS and play fairly actively in it without complaining about having to play other schemes as well.
Also, you last point is pretty narrow minded. If somebody is new to worms, learns wxw, sticks to it and joins tus (and yeah this happens often enough) then suddenly a wild Phantom appears and picks hysteria. Now explain me how it's okay to be forced to play other schemes if you a are eg a WxW player and why is it different with Inter pickers. I'll go even further and say that many of players who joined TUS years ago still stick to one to two schemes they like and feel raped mentally (exaggeration) when people pick schemes they don't like. Yet TUS works pretty well for them.
wut?
I get the feeling you dont like me (since before this thread).
How was my last point "narrow minded"? My point was many inter players only like to play normal... even in this thread an NNN member spoke of how the normal community segregated themselves.
Mablak spoke about the "Russian community" of inter players who may sign up to TUS if inter is added, my point was would they want to play other schemes... would they understand the concept of the classic league etc... nothing "narrow minded" about that.. dno why your talking about a wild phanton... wtf u on?
I'll go even further and say that many of players who joined TUS years ago still stick to one to two schemes they like and feel raped mentally (exaggeration) when people pick schemes they don't like. Yet TUS works pretty well for them.
Now that is narrow minded.
Maybe you don't see it working, but I do
yeh i dont see it working? why? because we tried it as part of the classic league before, and guess what... thats right, it didnt work, thats why I dont see it working. You can see the poll results right? Most people dont want it in the classic league, the ones that do are divided as to how it should be if it were to be part of the classic league.
When inter was part of the classic league before it didnt work, like I said, it wasnt popular enough amongst the majority of TUS CLASSIC players, nothing "narrow minded" about me saying that, its the truth. People refused to play inter, people couldnt agree on whether to play bo1 or bo3 or bo5... you would get a different amount of points depending on how many rounds you played, it was a big mess.
So yeh dont tell me im narrow minded thanks, cos I like inter, I base my judgement from past experience not from personal bias, like I said.
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Hm, your feeling deceives you ;O How did I ever made you feel I don't like you? My point still stands though. You shouldn't treat Inter players differently from others.
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wut? whatever
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i think any scheme that needs to be played more then once just to determine a winner shouldnt be in the classic league
i kinda like inter but playing one special scheme bo3 bo2 or w/e in a league where everything else is bo1 is just annoying, if you do this please tweak it so its suitable for bo1
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When inter was part of the classic league before it didnt work...
What makes you think that after 3 long years of TUS evolution (and WA community in general) Inter still has no place in classic league coz it failed at the beginning, when player base and players mentality about the scheme was low? Please dont say "coz poll says so". Also dont mention things like best of x and bla bla for the 10th time, im wondering why you keep repeating about the past in every sentence.
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i rly miss the old times when league just had roper/shopper/roperace/elite/bng/t17
6 shemes.. and now days they wanna add a 9th -.- bullshit -.-
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When inter was part of the classic league before it didnt work...
What makes you think that after 3 long years of TUS evolution (and WA community in general) Inter still has no place in classic league coz it failed at the beginning, when player base and players mentality about the scheme was low? Please dont say "coz poll says so". Also dont mention things like best of x and bla bla for the 10th time, im wondering why you keep repeating about the past in every sentence.
So, dont use the most recent poll as a basis to form a decision?
dont use what happened in the past as a basis to from a decision?
what should I use then lacoste?
Poll is clear, wanna stick inter in anyway?
Ive explained my reasoning (as you know), instead of telling me not to use common sense to arrive at a decision, you explain why im wrong to say what ive said, and you tell me why it would be a good idea to add it when the majority dont want it, go ahead... otherwise your post is useless.
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So, dont use the most recent poll as a basis to form a decision?
dont use what happened in the past as a basis to from a decision?
what should I use then lacoste?
Poll is clear, wanna stick inter in anyway?
Ive explained my reasoning (as you know), instead of telling me not to use common sense to arrive at a decision, you explain why im wrong to say what ive said, and you tell me why it would be a good idea to add it when the majority dont want it, go ahead... otherwise your post is useless.
You just keep repeating. The difference on me and you is that i believe its a good time to try it out once again even though im not sure about the result, but its worth it. You keep standing on your point like you would be so sure about it, believing in a public poll where you dont even know who voted and bringing some failed attempt from 3 years ago when league was created and barely started breathing.
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You just keep repeating. The difference on me and you is that i believe its a good time to try it out once again even though im not sure about the result, but its worth it. You keep standing on your point like you would be so sure about it, believing in a public poll where you dont even know who voted and bringing some failed attempt from 3 years ago when league was created and barely started breathing.
right.
So you want it because you think "its a good time to try it". Good one.
The whole point of this thread was to see what people wanted, they were given an opportunity to vote. The majority of people so far have voted against it. Despite the fact that most people have voted against it you still seem to think "its a good time to try it".
Im using the poll (the main point of this thread), and my experience from what happened in the past as a basis to form my decision (I have every right to), and you wanna criticise me for that. :/
This is a POLL THREAD, yet you tell me to ignore the results of the poll, right... If the poll was in favour of adding inter would you still be saying ignore the poll? No you wouldnt so stop that.
Im entitled to my opinion, ive used facts and reasoning to justify my opinion (over and over), yet you just wanna tell me to stfu, "its a good time to try".
Dont shoot the messenger. If you dont agree with me make your own case with you own reasons like Mablak did, dont tell me not to say what I've said because ive already validated my reasoning over and over again, the only reason ive had to repeat myself is because people like you wanna tell me "you're wrong it might work", regardless of the facts.
Stop MAKING me repeat myself, by all means give inter ago (even though most people have voted no), just ignore the poll like you said lacoste because we dont know who voted. Yeh MI actually ignore the poll, ignore the data you set out to collect by creating this thread, ignore what happened in the past, add inter to the classic league, its "a good time to try".
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...
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Yeh MI actually ignore the poll, ignore the data you set out to collect by creating this thread, ignore what happened in the past, add inter to the classic league, its "a good time to try".
finally [/topic]
and this will happen when we finally get inter to classic league:
(http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/worst_soccer_goalie.gif)
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Oh, 1 more thing I see people discussing: first turn factor.
So here the numbers:
Average of 10% more chances of winning a round were you start. Non significative difference between islands and caves (I was surprised about this, was sure the effect would be significatively bigger on islands). 95% confidence intervall: 7%-13%
Sample used: top half ONL overall ranking players, that's 14 players with at least 200 rounds played each-
It's up to you to decide whether that is big or small advantage.
Edit: there was also a positive correlation (r=0,68; p=0,01) between the advantage a player gets from first turn in caves and the advantage the same player gets from first turn in islands; indicating "how much advantage you can get from first turn" as an ability that varies from player to player.
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Oh, 1 more thing I see people discussing: first turn factor.
So here the numbers:
Average of 10% more chances of winning a round were you start. Non significative difference between islands and caves (I was surprised about this, was sure the effect would be significatively bigger on islands). 95% confidence intervall: 7%-13%
Sample used: top half ONL overall ranking players, that's 14 players with at least 200 rounds played each-
It's up to you to decide whether that is big or small advantage.
??? :D gj man i,m whit u ;D
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No offence Nail, but you sound like Komo (no offence Komo). :K
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I expected better from you, I see you have nothing more to say so you accept my opinion which is good.
You must realise that you put me on the defensive, and if you talk down to me ill treat you with the same respect in my posts.
lesson learned eh 8 )
+ Dario I dont know how you work this stuff out but thats interesting info indeed.
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+ Dario I dont know how you work this stuff out but thats interesting info indeed.
Over 2 years of gathering detailed information of player winning rates, considering opponent, island rounds, cave rounds, cave rounds where you started and island rounds where you started.
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Nail, you talk about the poll like it was 90% anti inter, but it's almost 50/50. Those who voted inter has to be bo3 would definetly play if it was bo1 as well and vice versa. Whatever Monkey decides he will have to ignore one half and I guess it's kind of rough for him.
You made your idea of how inter is supposed to be treated very clear and you know as good as me that it can never work, because ONL will never merge with TUS and TNL won't have any activity with ONL being out there. The less I understand why you are against tus adding a scheme that requires the most tactical and creative thinking of all of worms schemes. Imagine tus classic as decathlon, where they don't say: hey let's not take 100 metres into account anymore Usain Bolt won't come and agree to throw the discus anyway. And let TRL, where all other disceplins are played separately, be your isolated league for "drochers" only. Maybe inter will land there some time. Maybe even the way you imagine it to be.
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Jakka, I said already I would like intermediate to be a part of the classic league, but I just dont see it working thats why I voted no (my opinion, please accept it especially when ive explained).
You dont need to tell me how creative the scheme is... I know... just from a functional point of view a bo3 scheme does not work well in a bo1 multi scheme league and the previous attempt showed this.
Why wont ONL merge? Why you guys still being so stubborn? It would help your cause of getting inter to the classic league if people saw it being played competitively. You know ive been asking you guys to merge... for years, I dont see why you still refuse, I really dont.
Im all for trying inter in the classic, just really cannot see it working but who knows maybe ill be proved wrong.
Anyway ive said everything I can say here, im done.
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Then you are just as stubborn as onl. Just trying it one more time would harm you the least.
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Im all for trying inter in the classic, just really cannot see it working but who knows maybe ill be proved wrong.
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Either you added those last few words at the end later or I was too f@#!ing blind to see it.
The chance to see yourself proved wrong decreases when you vote - no.
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too f@#!ing blind to see it.
:D
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nail, you really have a talent to bring topics totally offtopic with funny 1 vs 1 battles xD.
anyway its kinda absurd to focus on this poll: so far 57 people voted, last season we had 224 players.
according to this numbers and the fact the poll is pretty even, your argument fails.
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Nail nails it though, a bo1 Multi-scheme league has no place for bo3 schemes. I voted Yes but tweaked (bo1).
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I dont think we went off topic at all, we went IN topic in great detail, it was 1v3 too x)
+ I did mention that peja
I dont assume people who play TUS won't vote, I know they dont because whenever there is a poll the number of votes NEVER adds up to the actual number of people who are playing tus (even in that one season).
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Oh, 1 more thing I see people discussing: first turn factor.
So here the numbers:
Average of 10% more chances of winning a round were you start. Non significative difference between islands and caves (I was surprised about this, was sure the effect would be significatively bigger on islands). 95% confidence intervall: 7%-13%
Sample used: top half ONL overall ranking players, that's 14 players with at least 200 rounds played each-
It's up to you to decide whether that is big or small advantage.
Edit: there was also a positive correlation (r=0,68; p=0,01) between the advantage a player gets from first turn in caves and the advantage the same player gets from first turn in islands; indicating "how much advantage you can get from first turn" as an ability that varies from player to player.
Thanks for taking the time to gather that info Dario. 10% is lower than I thought, and isn't much different from white vs black in chess. I'd like to see how elite compares, I imagine it's pretty similar.
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this is true, if given the option of going first in elite, I will always take it. there's likely a similar advantage there.
just add bo1 intermediate then. people were saying going first meant gg or 'ur f@#!ed', but if it isn't really as huge an issue as claimed by dario and mablak, then bring intermediate back to classic league, this time with bo1.
absolute last resort would be manual placement, but I'm guessing it won't be needed.
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KRD, I clearly stated my reasoning for not wanting inter in the classic league.
Right, but I find your reasoning weak and unconvincing.
Yes, TUS has attempted this before, but that was years ago, before CWT 2010 and 2011 happened, before we saw 2000 Russians watching a live stream of Intermediate being played competitively at the same time and loving it, prompting the creation of things like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PtaMXeFRm-s). Also, judging by how the number of rounds issue was never really addressed back then and by how little it took to take the scheme out of the classic league again, I daresay TUS (staff and players) wasn't really committed to making it work at that time.
The poll results are such as they are, but just as you might argue that half of the players don't want the scheme in, so you can argue that 50% are leaning toward yes, despite considerable anti-propaganda, despite the inherent fear of change that's always present on WA. Imagine if BnG or Hysteria or Shopper were taken out of the league all those years ago. Would the same sort of poll look as positive for them as it does for Intermediate right now? Hmm. In any case, MI clearly said in the opening post that this poll was not going to be the deciding factor, only one of the things for him to keep in mind when coming to a decision.
What this thread should really be about is the validity of Intermediate as a classic league scheme. In my opinion, it has already been proven by other leagues and competitions that it's plenty valid enough and that it likely fulfills more requirements for a classic league scheme than some of the others in there now. Finding solutions to the problems with it, for example how long playing two rounds would take or how wrong it would feel to lose a round to random placement is also being worked on; the Bo2 idea is on the table and the community at large is as ready for this step as it'll ever be. Sure, plenty of people will let their knee-jerk reactions get the better of them, but they would whatever the proposed change was and you know it. In the end, we're having this discussion to make sure that if TUS decides to go through with this, it does it in the best way possible. And actually, I feel this thread has done a pretty good job of that, in large part thanks to the contributions of people who are in favour of giving Inter another chance.
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I want to clear this now,
3 years ago, Intermediate was part of Classic league in first season. It even got played in PO (https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/classic-playoffs/?s=1). Intermediate got pretty much popular but mainly because ONL was down at the time. When ONL got back up, NNNs left for their own league and Intermediate activity dropped more than 50%. A poll was done and Intermediate got 50/50.
People who were left playing Intermediate weren't the kind that would mind playing Intermediate in Classic league or Free league. They just wanted to have fun with Intermediate with a flavor of seriousness. The rest of Classic league players didn't like Intermediate, for not wanting to learn a new scheme (mostly) or considering it a very lucky scheme (or both) so I moved Intermediate to Free league for the sake of TUS, struggling to fix its position in the small-looking community.
Back to current discussion,
I really don't get the "BIG FLAW" on bo3 games. I mean it, I really don't get it. (Help me understand this big picture please) I understand about game duration and how it could take more than other games. But I don't get why it is a huge factor. So a scheme takes more time than others. If the time factor is this much important, why not make TTRR bo5 to make it come close to other schemes? It is ridiculously shorter than other schemes. Why not give 8 worms to each team to raise the quality of turns/times? It's true that everyone wants to achieve more points in the shortest time but that's not all there is and shouldn't be the only thing considered in any league. A player must consider his strength in schemes and his chance of winning to achieve the fastest time for points.
The other idea I'd like to be discussed is the option of refusing once. (Only for Intermediate, or for any scheme, and not for PO).
This will partially solve the obsession people are having for the length of games, also it kind of reduces avoiding certain players. Avoiders would think they could refuse the scheme they think they get bashed in and some obvious flaw which I'm missing :)
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The other idea I'd like to be discussed is the option of refusing once. (Only for Intermediate, or for any scheme, and not for PO).
This will partially solve the obsession people are having for the length of games, also it kind of reduces avoiding certain players. Avoiders would think they could refuse the scheme they think they get bashed in and some obvious flaw which I'm missing :)
The Classic League is an overall league. When you start getting into refusing a scheme or two schemes or whatever the league becomes something different. I know many people havn't put so of their time and effort into getting good at a scheme just so that someone can legally refuse playing that scheme against them.
Solution to avoidance: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/tus-discussion/avoiding-rule/
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one sec
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Right, but I find your reasoning weak and unconvincing.
I really dont see how you can say this KRD.
My argument is based on my past experience and also the current results of the poll. As you said the poll is divided pretty much 50/50, so obviously there is a significant number of people who don't want inter in the classic league, my arguments represent the thoughts of those who have voted no, so they are not weak they are valid. Now you (and others) may not agree that these reasons alone are a good enough reason to dismiss intermediate completely, which is fine, but that does not detract from the validity of my argument. Just as there are reasons to add inter to the classic league there are reasons not to. It seems I am the only one fighting this corner (having to reply to 4 or 5 people saying the same thing), but we can see by the poll that the community is split, my opinions represent those that have voted no (although im the only one voicing them in detail), and they are valid.
3 years ago, Intermediate was part of Classic league in first season. It even got played in PO (https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/classic-playoffs/?s=1). Intermediate got pretty much popular but mainly because ONL was down at the time. When ONL got back up, NNNs left for their own league and Intermediate activity dropped more than 50%. A poll was done and Intermediate got 50/50.
...and the poll is 50/50 today, KRD, this is why I have the same views as I did after we tried it the first time round it wasnt successful.
I really don't get the "BIG FLAW" on bo3 games. I mean it, I really don't get it. (Help me understand this big picture please) I understand about game duration and how it could take more than other games. But I don't get why it is a huge factor. So a scheme takes more time than others. If the time factor is this much important, why not make TTRR bo5 to make it come close to other schemes? It is ridiculously shorter than other schemes. Why not give 8 worms to each team to raise the quality of turns/times?
Imagine if BnG or Hysteria or Shopper were taken out of the league all those years ago. Would the same sort of poll look as positive for them as it does for Intermediate right now?
We can't say. The main problem people are have with inter is the rounds situation, its a big thing for many players. Hyst, Shopper and BnG are bo1 schemes, so the "best of" problem is not an issue with these schemes.
To address you MI, the amount of time it takes to complete a bo3 a game is not a problem if you enjoy intermediate and are willing to play a bo3 game. Unfortunately as we learned from past experience and from current feelings, many league players are not willing to spend that amount of time on a scheme they don't like. I wish they were, but they aren't, nothing we can do about it, we must accept this reality and take it into consideration as the league must try to please the majority of its users.
Ill go back to the beginning of TUS, back when you refused to have anything to do with the site (KRD).
I hope you understand I love intermediate and have a great respect for the scheme and its players. It didn't take a live stream for me to appreciate the scheme, I appreciated it way before then. I played ONL for a bit and had a load of fun, when Intermediate was a pick for TUS classic in the start, I was THRILLED.
The thing is I dont just consider my own personal feelings when making a decison, I consider everyone else too. Like I said I was glad when Inter became a TUS classic scheme, but in actual application it caused lots of problems. I would pick Intermediate and people would refuse to play. Then there were those who wanted to play, but only wanted to play bo1 when I wanted to play bo3, then there were times when I'd want a quick game of TUS and my opponent would pick bo3 Intermediate and I would have to refuse because I wasn't in the mood for a long game.
Whether or not you, me, Monkeyisland, Mablak, the "Russians" or whoever else is more than happy to play a long game, we cannot ignore the fact that there are just as many people who do not want to play a long game and they are well within their right not too. In an ideal world we would all play bo3 and have a great time, id be happy to play bo3, you'd be happy to play bo3, but we cannot refute the fact that there are just as many players not willing to play bo3 or even bo2.
What this thread should really be about is the validity of Intermediate as a classic league scheme. In my opinion, it has already been proven by other leagues and competitions that it's plenty valid enough and that it likely fulfills more requirements for a classic league scheme than some of the others in there now.
...and that is what this thread HAS been about. Its what your posts are about, his posts are about, and MY posts are about. As I keep saying, I know how competitive Intermediate is, I know how creative and exciting it is, I know there is NO QUESTION as to it whether or not it is league worthy. The thing is in practise it none of this matters. What matters in practise, is firstly do the majority of players want it, and secondly are they willing to play it in its full and proper form. We are divided, there are those that want it, those that flat out dont want it, those that want it in its full form, those who want it tweaked, and those who would love to see it however cannot see it working due to the fact that we know many players do not want to play it as part of the classic league, I'm in that last category.
Let me clarify before people make me say the same stuff over again:
- I like Intermediate.
- I know its league worthy, my view is not that it isn't worthy of being a classic league scheme, moreover it wont work as a classic league scheme.
Big difference.
- My only issue is that of the number of rounds, which is everyone who has an issues issue.
- My point is that no matter what I or others feel, there are those who will not want to play, will refuse to play, and this will be annoying for everyone (as it was before).
After reading the thread more, especially looking at Dario's statistics, im beginning to think it may be possible to include Intermediate if we make it always bo1, but there is no option on the poll to vote for this, so ive had to stick with no. Make the poll more detailed and you'd get a better analysis of what people are feeling. Whether or not we make it bo1, tweak it, or whatever else, there are still going to be those who don't want it and we cannot just ignore those people. I take both sides into consideration, hopefully a compromise can be made, and hopefully it will be a sucess, lets see.
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The more I read your posts the less sense it makes that you vote "no". It's almost as if you are afraid of being proven wrong. Anyhow, alot was said in this thread. The only thing left is waiting for the final verdict of people in charge I guess.
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After reading the thread more, especially looking at Dario's statistics, im beginning to think it may be possible to include Intermediate if we make it always bo1, but there is no option on the poll to vote for this, so ive had to stick with no. Make the poll more detailed and you'd get a better analysis of what people are feeling.
Ultimately I don't see it working in classic thats why I voted no. I think it needs its own league, which it already has.
I said I would like to be proved wrong, not afraid of it at all, I would love to be proved wrong.
...but you are right, I did say I would like to see it tried again despite my concerns, so I've changed my vote to "yes but tweaked", meaning "yes but bo1"
+ but I dont really want to play bo1, Id rather play bo3, but I dont think bo3 will work thats why I voted no outright.
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if i have to play bo3 because people think this scheme is so special then my pick will also be bo3... and i might pick bng :)
every scheme has a first turn advantage, should we play t17 bo3 just because its possible that a couple of your worms get plopped on first turn?
and about the activity... if this is supposed to make tus more active, the only way i see it doing that is if the ONL players start playing classic, which i dont think will happen because they already have a league where they dont have to play any other scheme
and for the noobs i think it wont help activity either, the ones that arent narrow minded shortly start playing other schemes other then intermediate, and if they are that narrow minded they will just quit after getting owned in other schemes
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So, to advance this discussion, I think we should narrow down the possibilities of inter on TUS to either bo1 or bo2. Although bo2 is a strange idea, it gives a better representation of the scheme as a whole, having to keep your concentration up longer. Some people might complain about the length, but that should subside when people see that 2 rounds is shorter than most BnGs and Team17s. And far fewer will complain about luck if each side gets to start first once.
I think when it comes down to playing it, people who have rarely played the scheme will be much less afraid if it's 2 rounds, especially if they have concerns about going first or starting placements. I suppose 2-0 would just be a regular win, and 1-1 would give a bit to the lower ranked clan (and presumably a bit less to the higher clan). Of course, people would still be able to pick bo1 or bo3 if both sides agreed, we'd just be making bo2 the standard. And if it didn't work out, we could easily change it to bo1.
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I think I just found the correct average round time:
18 minutes, 19 seconds. 18,62% of the rounds end during SD, means that 18,62% of the rounds last more than 22 minutes.
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So how do you expect this to work exactly? Many people in the community are not familiar with the scheme and 50% don't want it. Do you think it should be forced upon the tus community and in to the league even without a majority wanting it? After 20 some seasons of tus, am I going to be forced to play a scheme I've never played before? Will my clan now start losing clanners because we are forced to play a scheme we are not familiar with?
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It's not any different than forcing hysteria or roper upon the community. So why not.
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It's not any different than forcing hysteria or roper upon the community. So why not.
Roper was around and the most played scheme even before w:a. Hysteria was here since day 1 of tus. I fail to see the logic in your response.
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intermediate is pretty much the default scheme of w:a.... so wheres ur logic dub??
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So how do you expect this to work exactly? Many people in the community are not familiar with the scheme and 50% don't want it. Do you think it should be forced upon the tus community and in to the league even without a majority wanting it? After 20 some seasons of tus, am I going to be forced to play a scheme I've never played before? Will my clan now start losing clanners because we are forced to play a scheme we are not familiar with?
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learning schemes is one of the funnest things about worms. there's no reason not to learn intermediate.
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It's not any different than forcing hysteria or roper upon the community. So why not.
roper wasn't forced upon the community, it made the community. same with bng. hysteria is way more popular than intermediate. im not seeing your logic.
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Intermediate into "Default-League". :)
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Maybe you are confused by the word "forced" which might sound a bit strong. I sort of copied it from Dub's statement. What I actually mean is that all three of those schemes have both: lovers and haters and the numbers for all schemes are around 50/50 percent of haters and lovers respectively, if all tus members vote. This makes intermediate as eligible of being in classic as the other two. And I don't know how this fails logically.
Let's be honest saying the one thing that was around longer has more rights is just a hell of a stupid argument that merely promotes ignorance, but fails to back up a statement. The 2nd main criteria a scheme should be judged by while picking for the classic league is its capability of providing a high level competitive gameplay. This means checking the scheme for things like: luck issues, balance issues, how much talent and time is needed to become top notch at it (I personally think the more the better), etc etc. Around those fundamental things you should build up your argument against it, not throwing in statements filled by fear of new things and losing. Sure, sure W:A is just a game to play and have fun, but let's face it you don't play classic league for fun only, you do it to feed your competitive demons. And you want to win the games with skill, not with luck. Once you really start to play inter you might see that there's less luck involved in inter than in at least 3 other schemes that already are in classic league. And I'm sorry I just don't see how "I don't play it, becasue I might lose." makes a valid argument.
The first main critaria is the popularity of the scheme btw. This poll says exactly 50/50 and it's almost a perfect number, because, and I repeat myself again, if seperate polls were created for every single scheme, then all of them would wind up around 50/50 with slight deviations to one or another side depending on the scheme.
Furthermore I want to seize the opportunity and advertise my intermediate cup. :D Sign ups are already open https://www.tus-wa.com/cups/cup-363/