Intermediate and Classic league

[Jakka]

The main idea behind bo3 is that both guys have the first turn of the round at least once. That sort of makes up bad for positions. Not always tho.

Under certain circumstanced bo1 inter is playable, too. Well, my vote is yes for any best of n.

[Husk]

I'm sorry, the whole foundation of Intermediate is driving me crazy the more I think about it.

How exactly does Bo3 even fix everything anyway?  Bo3 prolongs the same underlying issues over multiple games.  Has this ever been discussed before?

answer:
bo3 minimizes the effects of first luck. if it was bo1 and ur opponent starts and gains better chances to win because he started first, u r f@#!ed. but since it's bo3 u know u r gonna start that 2nd round, in 2nd round u might get a great chance for winning just because u started

Worm Placement luck and First luck aren't even eliminated by Bo3.  Awful placements don't disappear just because of Bo3, they can still happen, multiple times in a row.  And going First doesn't just get cancelled out due to Bo3, because someone still gets an advantage of going First twice.

answer:
the decider could be played in cavern, this minimizes the luck behind awful placements

Am I the only one who doesn't understand this about Intermediate?  There has to be something to make Bo1 Intermediate work.  Because I fail to see how Bo3 is the best solution.  It can't be.

that is what I understood

[franz]

both guys have the first turn of the round at least once. That sort of makes up bad for positions. Not always tho.

Someone still gets an advantage of Going First twice.  Bo3 can't be considered the best solution.  There must be some way to lessen the advantage of Going First to make Bo1 Intermediate work.


Husk says "he started first, u r f@#!ed" and "u r gonna start that 2nd round, in 2nd round u might get a great chance for winning just because u started"  -->  Why isn't there discussion to fix this underlying issue of starting first?  What is the point of prolonging this issue in a Bo3?  Whoever starts first gets to start twice, so you just go back to your first line "he started first (twice), u r f@#!ed".

I repeat, there must be some way to fix this huge flaw in the scheme.  Not with Bo3.


edit: Shouldn't the focus be on figuring out how to make Bo1 Intermediate work, not necessarily just defending Bo3 because it's tradition?

[lacoste]

The only differences between the way bo1 and bo3 are played are psychological factors, things like players getting warmed up after the first round, or getting used to someone's style, or having a strong urge to come back.

This and... your physical mood (maybe it sounds silly but it is a huge factor). Mistakes in Inter play huge role in winning a game. Having more games you simply have more chances to fail. The better player is also the one who can control the game at any time and longer. I for example can have 1 perfect round with very hard moves performed and the next game can be total diseaster - that doesnt apply to ie. Mablak as often, thats also (among other things) why hes at the top.

[Mablak]

I'm sorry, the whole foundation of Intermediate is driving me crazy the more I think about it.

How exactly does Bo3 even fix everything anyway?  Bo3 prolongs the same underlying issues over multiple games.  Has this ever been discussed before?

Worm Placement luck and First luck aren't even eliminated by Bo3.  Awful placements don't disappear just because of Bo3, they can still happen, multiple times in a row.  And going First doesn't just get cancelled out due to Bo3, because someone still gets an advantage of going First twice.


Am I the only one who doesn't understand this about Intermediate?  There has to be something to make Bo1 Intermediate work.  Because I fail to see how Bo3 is the best solution.  It can't be.

Franz, bo1 intermediate does work in my opinion, even though it's not as good as bo3. You simply have to gain a lot of skill to learn how to deal with poor placement, and know what kind of maps are best.

The reason bo3 adds more skill to the scheme is because of mental issues, you have to become more of a 'clutch player', winning rounds when you really need to. And of course, you have to know how to change how safe/risky your move choices are depending on how much you need to win a given round. Players like me, Dario, and Koras often have 60-90 bo3 wins and only a handful of losses in an NNNL season, partly because of this. And partly just because adding more rounds in any scheme means the more skillful players will come out on top more often.

But actually going-first-luck is evened out significantly with bo3, especially since a lot of bo3 games only last 2 rounds. Click on any NNNL player's name here: http://www.normalnonoobs.com/index2.php?func=profilesAll and you'll see that every player (with more than a few games played) will have started on caves and islands at a nearly equal percentage.

[Statik]

Well, I changed my mind. It can be bo1 during the season. There is a 50% chance to start first, so if you don't start first in the 1st game, you will probably do it next time. In 1000 games about ~500 times one will start first, but it doesn't mean all other games will be lost. For playoffs it should be bo3 or bo5 IMO, so both players/clans will have a chance to start first. But I still vote no haha

[Jakka]

Nah, If decided to accept bo1 inter then keep bo1 in play offs as well. Too bad it wasn't added to the current season for a probation period of three seasons or something. Afterwards you can still make another poll.

[Husk]

O= who starts first twice is not so big deal if the decider is played in cavern, usually the better player wins then

[Chicken23]

I voted yes. Remember pre match agreements? - If someone isn't willing to play your pick of inter which is bo3. Find another opponent who is and will accept before the start of the first game is played.

[Dub-c]

Tus classic needs less schemes. Not more.

Intermediate has never been a consistent part of leagues with lots of people playing it. Its a specialist scheme. In the overall community there is few that are really good at it. The scheme will have a HUGE advantage to the few that are good at it compared to the community. Added the scheme will screw up the whole league dynamic in my opinion.

[Dario]

Partial solutions:
-Instead of playing 1 round, always play 2 and report as separated games in the order they were played.
-Add extra in-game rules like "you can choose to restart the round before you move in your first turn".

Possible negative side effects of reducing the number of rounds to 2 or 1 per game:
-People might turn too careful with terrain choice: reduces the variability in the terrains played, reduces the variability of situations you'll have to face as a player (in the way I see intermediate, variability is the most outstanding attribute) . Might even turn the games into pure shotgun wars if the players start editing elite-like terrains to play in. Might end up playing only islands or only caves.
-Takes away the chance to check enemy team worms order and special weapon in first round and use it to your advantage in second round. Loses part of it's tactical side.

Luck will always be part of this and any scheme (even in a battle race the result can depend on sub-pixel alignment that is uncontrollable to the player). But keep in mind that a top intermediate player can (and usually does) achieve a >90% winning ratio (in rounds) against average players.

Hope this added something to the discussion.

[KoreanRedDragon]

-Instead of playing 1 round, always play 2 and report as separated games in the order they were played.

Best idea yet. Have Intermediate be a two round scheme in TUS, with an optional decider if both players agree to play it. This way starting-first luck will be even in a single duel as well as spread over the entire season, and you give players who want to play proper Bo3 matches an opportunity to do so as well.

Two rounds of Inter can take between 20 and 50 minutes, that's more or less comparable with BnG. Sounds good to me.

-People might turn too careful with terrain choice: reduces the variability in the terrains played, reduces the variability of situations you'll have to face as a player (in the way I see intermediate, variability is the most outstanding attribute) . Might even turn the games into pure shotgun wars if the players start editing elite-like terrains to play in. Might end up playing only islands or only caves.

Also yes, someone should do something about those ridiculous Elite maps.

[lacoste]

Also yes, someone should do something about those ridiculous Elite maps.

Elite is already poisoned to the bones. If someone would try to bring it into Intermediate on TUS id ban from internet if i could. So an additional rule would be welcom'd here - Use only randomly generated complex maps.

[NAiL]

inter just will not work as part of the classic league, thats all! As good as this discussion is, it just won't work, most classic players do not want to play intermediate, let alone 2 or 3 rounds. As much as I respect the scheme, it really does not belong to the classic league and I think the voting so far reflects this. Bring back TNL, merge ONL, just dont add it to the classic league as we tried it before and it didnt work and I dont see it working if we try again.

[Mablak]

Tus classic needs less schemes. Not more.

Intermediate has never been a consistent part of leagues with lots of people playing it. Its a specialist scheme. In the overall community there is few that are really good at it. The scheme will have a HUGE advantage to the few that are good at it compared to the community. Added the scheme will screw up the whole league dynamic in my opinion.

We do have too many schemes, which is why scheme classes would be a huge help. But for the time being, shoppa is hardly played and could easily be removed to make room for inter. To call it a specialist scheme in the same way the RR or SSing are specialist schemes is quite absurd though; inter contains most of the essence of the game, it's the height of default schemes, and default is what most people come to worms for.

Some people starting off having an advantage is no reason to keep it out of the league if it's a worthy scheme. I'll even avoid playing inter in clanners for a while if people want a more fair match. But most of NNNL won't bother coming over here, the majority of TUS players will be on equal footing.