Shopper, default scheme or rope scheme?

[Aerox]

i run a clan, a community,

then you amongst all people should care.

[MonkeyIsland]

How exactly all of you agreed to discuss shopper on the condition of "Good map choice"? Is it a debate on how is shopper on "City Shopper"? Is that a standard shopper? With the huge variety of shopper maps nowadays, it is the map that decides shopper is a rope scheme or a default scheme.

[chakkman]

WxW is a roper scheme, because most of the time you don't think what to do with the weapon, you only think about roping fast enough so you have enough time to attack with the first weapon that comes to mind. In shopper, most of your turn is dedicated to deciding what to do with the weapons you have, and you use roping as a mean to achieve the attack.

Depends on the map really. On most w3w's or w4w's you have a lot of time to put up a strategy, at least for your next turns or for the turns after this as well. Actually i believe wxw and shopper is kinda the same thing apart from you have to additionally touch walls in wxw. On hard maps strategy is getting short and it depends more on what you would call typical rope stuff like being quick, being safe and so. But i dunno many guys who would host such a hard map that it mostly depends on who can do all walls and attack in the same turn (MonkeyIsland is one of those ), and that's not what it's about imo. Strategy plays a big role in wxw also as in most of the other schemes (apart from rr maybe but well... can be tactics also if you wanna go flatout or do a safe run).

Anyway, maybe set up a poll to determine if shopper is more of a default or more of a rope scheme. That would be the most righteous thing i guess.


Edit: Just saw this:

How exactly all of you agreed to discuss shopper on the condition of "Good map choice"? Is it a debate on how is shopper on "City Shopper"? Is that a standard shopper? With the huge variety of shopper maps nowadays, it is the map that decides shopper is a rope scheme or a default scheme.

Very good point.

[Korydex]

I think shopper can be played as with rope as without it. But nowadays only rope shopper is played and that would be really difficult to make people play shopper without rope and I dont see a real reason to make so radical changes. Maybe you wont be able to play it in leagues but you still can host shoppers without ropes, maybe someone will be interested in it. And also there's Team17 scheme where the crates are dropped each turn and there's only 1 rope. As for me it was always something like shopper without roping.

[Turko]

Shopper without the rope WOULD NOT WORK, FULL STOP. You wouldnt be able to reach crates that fell in certain places.

It doesn't work without weapons either, you wouldn't be able to kill anything. So it's not a valid point because it can be used both ways (in fact, it works better to defend my point)

Maybe but... Roper and WxW also doesnt work without weapons, so if we go to this way we must say the only rope scheme is rrtt.

I think shopper can be played as with rope as without it. But nowadays only rope shopper is played and that would be really difficult to make people play shopper without rope and I dont see a real reason to make so radical changes. Maybe you wont be able to play it in leagues but you still can host shoppers without ropes, maybe someone will be interested in it. And also there's Team17 scheme where the crates are dropped each turn and there's only 1 rope. As for me it was always something like shopper without roping.

The problem is that shopper without rope completely lost the sense, for example shopper with jetpack... I mean ropeknocking and the chance to fail, since it is impossible to fall from jetpack, so JP Shopper is 100% luck of crates.

[Peja]

ropa, what the hell does my post count have to do with how silly this debate is...

i run a clan, a community, and have a strong need to bicker with komo under any circumstance, of course my post count is high.

but that does not make a debate about if shoppa scheme is more default, or more roper...

its f@#!ing both, komo said it best.. i dunno about calling it a "hybrid" scheme hahaha but its a f@#!in good combination of both roping, and weapon use...

nail is right, u are a f@#!ing pussy!   

[Aerox]

How exactly all of you agreed to discuss shopper on the condition of "Good map choice"? Is it a debate on how is shopper on "City Shopper"? Is that a standard shopper? With the huge variety of shopper maps nowadays, it is the map that decides shopper is a rope scheme or a default scheme.

This is a valid point. When I theorycraft about schemes I always take into account that the best maps are always used.

[Peja]

why cant we agree that shopper is the rope scheme which is more comfortable to defaulters. even stats dont show the real skill in 100% u wont find defaulters when u look in the overall shopper top 10. they all are good rope players, i cant find any specialist ground players there but a lot of good allrounders.

[nino]

shoppa is a tranny scheme porra!!!

[NinjaCamel]

nino do u have cassette deck??

[Aerox]

why cant we agree that shopper is the rope scheme which is more comfortable to defaulters. even stats dont show the real skill in 100% u wont find defaulters when u look in the overall shopper top 10. they all are good rope players, i cant find any specialist ground players there but a lot of good allrounders.

compare the shopper top 10 to the team17 top10...

oh?

[TheKomodo]

I don't see why this is even a problem for Clanner Playoffs, Clans today consist of players skilled at different schemes, as an example, I am extremely good at BnG/Roper/Hysteria, pretty good at TTRR/Shopper/WxW, and around average at Elite/T17, other members are strong at schemes others are not, and usually cover all schemes for all clans.

When participating in PO all clans SHOULD have all members on standby as theres 8 legal schemes, so it shouldn't matter what rule there is for who picks what, I honestly feel that the most important thing about PO is who gets 1st pick, and the clan who put in most effort and played the best to win the Season deserves this.

[Peja]

why cant we agree that shopper is the rope scheme which is more comfortable to defaulters. even stats dont show the real skill in 100% u wont find defaulters when u look in the overall shopper top 10. they all are good rope players, i cant find any specialist ground players there but a lot of good allrounders.

compare the shopper top 10 to the team17 top10...

oh?

according to your theory dmitry should pawn Ray for example, whath i cant believe, but ok.

basicly its a matter of definition of a ropescheme.

Definition a)
A Ropescheme is a scheme where the better rope player wins against the defaulter.
(ropa) shoppa: no
Definition b) A Ropescheme is a scheme which is basicly played with the ninja rope.
(chakkman) shoppa. yes

ropa correct me pls if i misunderstood your point. (oops useless, you will correct me anyway)

Well Definition a) is  very unclear imo, cause:

-terms like better ropeplayer arent exact, and objective they are subjective attributions.
- usually the  most constant player wins a match. According to shopper,  more games  are decided by fails instead of weapon creativity.

Definition b) -maybe too easy
               

[Aerox]

 more games  are decided by fails instead of weapon creativity.

Let's do an effort and debate with order. It's really non issue if being a better roper is a matter of subjectivty, since the topic of discussion here is if it's fair to limit playoffs and scheme rating gain in such way. By having shopper as a roper scheme you penalize ropers because it's them who should be having a handicap when playing shopper, roper and WxW (hence a limitation so the handicap isn't abused) but in reality it's the defaulters who are getting a double handicap in their favour.
Because elite-shopper-other default scheme is a possible combo, in which the better defaulter wins three times whilst the better roper can only win a maximun of 2 games (in virtual theory) and that's only if he picks first.

I don't think I can present my argument in a more simplified way, so I hope my posture is clear.

[avirex]

shoppa is both a roping, and default scheme... as a roper, i feel confident in going into that scheme and coming out with a win, and im sure defaulters feel the same way...

so whats is your arguement exactly?? you want everyone to say its a default scheme? thats not going to happen..  its a good mixture of both. as komo already said.