Anyone remember me? :( lol

[Y2JID]

y0 cue

[qp Magic]

Wally! the lil walrus sup bro and klepto

[SPW]

Americans coming back, yayle!

[j0e]

Holy hell, it's Magic! Welcome back dude. How long has it been? 7 years? 8?

[TheWalrus]

Wally! the lil walrus sup bro and klepto

Who were you again magic?  It's been awhile.....and i dont remember the ubersecret qp identities anymore other than Ryan and i forgot which one he was in qp even now.  I actually was thinking you were Ryan till I saw the USA flag, he likes to alias these days.

[qp Magic]

I think I was Pure when I was in your clan Wally.. honestly been too long. Read your "politics display" on the forums.
Socialism/higher taxes and the like are discussed often, but the amount of detailed dialogue intrigued me. I read almost all of it.
This is a very hot topic in the US. I'm a business owner and investor in Washington state, paying extremely
high taxes while making nothing(if not taking losses) And yes, It's confusing.
I personally am surprised to see the differ of opin, between Mablak and Wally and others. Given,
it was about 10 years ago that I had conversations with the two, but I would regard these
 individuals to have intellectual authority.  I remember Mablak explaining
 the Smashing pumpkins to me following which I purchased 4 albums. And many conversations. Smart kid. and heated debates with Wally when we started a clan with Anubis... so

Nonetheless people really need to get a better scope on why capitalism works. The problem is that people see money as a pie graph. they think that if one person gets wealthy he takes from the pie. but wealth is something that grows. the pie is always changing in size. I can remember believing, as a child, that if a few rich people had all the money, it left less for everyone else. Many people seem to continue to believe something like this well into adulthood. This fallacy is usually there in the background when you hear someone talking about how x percent of the population have y percent of the wealth. If you plan to start a startup, then whether you realize it or not, you're planning to disprove the Pie Fallacy.

What leads people astray here is the abstraction of money. Money is not wealth. It's just something we use to move wealth around. So although there may be, in certain specific moments (like your family, this month) a fixed amount of money available to trade with other people for things you want, there is not a fixed amount of wealth in the world. You can make more wealth. Wealth has been getting created and destroyed (but on balance, created) for all of human history.

Suppose you own a beat-up old car. Instead of sitting on your butt next summer, you could spend the time restoring your car to pristine condition. In doing so you create wealth. The world is-- and you specifically are-- one pristine old car the richer. And not just in some metaphorical way. If you sell your car, you'll get more for it.
In restoring your old car you have made yourself richer. You haven't made anyone else poorer. So there is obviously not a fixed pie. And in fact, when you look at it this way, you wonder why anyone would think there was.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The people most likely to grasp that wealth can be created are the ones who are good at making things, the craftsmen. Their hand-made objects become store-bought ones. But with the rise of industrialization there are fewer and fewer craftsmen. One of the biggest remaining groups is computer programmers.
A programmer can sit down in front of a computer and create wealth. A good piece of software is, in itself, a valuable thing. There is no manufacturing to confuse the issue. Those characters you type are a complete, finished product. If someone sat down and wrote a web browser that didn't suck (a fine idea, by the way), the world would be that much richer.

Ryan (myself) fits the category (craftsmen) I build and remodel homes. then I pay taxes for more than the value of the home I created.. so understanding how people that won't just make wealth for themselves seem to think rich people owe them something?.. No f@#!ing way. I don't give the US even a glimmer of hope in the same way I wouldn't give Greece one either.
Debt doesn't work. It's really that simple.
Wally if you're around we should chat. I'm not sure if I'm going to buy worms again :x
(sorry about the rant) for those who are easily offended

Joe, yes its been at least 8 years. I know cuz I broke my WA cd 8 yrs ago
Does our favorite little over-zealous computer gamer Alex still exist?

[Mablak]

I think I was Pure when I was in your clan Wally.. honestly been too long. Read your "politics display" on the forums.
Socialism/higher taxes and the like are discussed often, but the amount of detailed dialogue intrigued me. I read almost all of it.
This is a very hot topic in the US. I'm a business owner and investor in Washington state, paying extremely
high taxes while making nothing(if not taking losses) And yes, It's confusing.
I personally am surprised to see the differ of opin, between Mablak and Wally and others. Given,
it was about 10 years ago that I had conversations with the two, but I would regard these
 individuals to have intellectual authority.  I remember Mablak explaining
 the Smashing pumpkins to me following which I purchased 4 albums. And many conversations. Smart kid. and heated debates with Wally when we started a clan with Anubis... so

Nonetheless people really need to get a better scope on why capitalism works. The problem is that people see money as a pie graph. they think that if one person gets wealthy he takes from the pie. but wealth is something that grows. the pie is always changing in size. I can remember believing, as a child, that if a few rich people had all the money, it left less for everyone else. Many people seem to continue to believe something like this well into adulthood. This fallacy is usually there in the background when you hear someone talking about how x percent of the population have y percent of the wealth. If you plan to start a startup, then whether you realize it or not, you're planning to disprove the Pie Fallacy.

What leads people astray here is the abstraction of money. Money is not wealth. It's just something we use to move wealth around. So although there may be, in certain specific moments (like your family, this month) a fixed amount of money available to trade with other people for things you want, there is not a fixed amount of wealth in the world. You can make more wealth. Wealth has been getting created and destroyed (but on balance, created) for all of human history.

Suppose you own a beat-up old car. Instead of sitting on your butt next summer, you could spend the time restoring your car to pristine condition. In doing so you create wealth. The world is-- and you specifically are-- one pristine old car the richer. And not just in some metaphorical way. If you sell your car, you'll get more for it.
In restoring your old car you have made yourself richer. You haven't made anyone else poorer. So there is obviously not a fixed pie. And in fact, when you look at it this way, you wonder why anyone would think there was.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The people most likely to grasp that wealth can be created are the ones who are good at making things, the craftsmen. Their hand-made objects become store-bought ones. But with the rise of industrialization there are fewer and fewer craftsmen. One of the biggest remaining groups is computer programmers.
A programmer can sit down in front of a computer and create wealth. A good piece of software is, in itself, a valuable thing. There is no manufacturing to confuse the issue. Those characters you type are a complete, finished product. If someone sat down and wrote a web browser that didn't suck (a fine idea, by the way), the world would be that much richer.

Ryan (myself) fits the category (craftsmen) I build and remodel homes. then I pay taxes for more than the value of the home I created.. so understanding how people that won't just make wealth for themselves seem to think rich people owe them something?.. No f@#!ing way. I don't give the US even a glimmer of hope in the same way I wouldn't give Greece one either.
Debt doesn't work. It's really that simple.
Wally if you're around we should chat. I'm not sure if I'm going to buy worms again :x
(sorry about the rant) for those who are easily offended

Joe, yes its been at least 8 years. I know cuz I broke my WA cd 8 yrs ago
Does our favorite little over-zealous computer gamer Alex still exist?

Hah, what's up Pure? I thought you were one of those wormers who was lost forever! Glad to see WA and its denizens still haunt your memories. I remember the good old days when all that mattered in WA was roping, ahh so much fun back then, I was still learnin' ropes from the greats like yerself. It's awesome that you have your own business, and unfortunate that you're paying more taxes than you should. I'm just making music right now while I'm inbetween jobs, a bit entrepreneurial as well, though who knows if I can ever make a living off of it. I agree with you that money doesn't mean anything in itself, and I'd take what you say further, by replacing 'wealth' with happiness, or well-being, since that's really what makes wealth important in the end:

"What leads people astray here is the abstraction of money. Money is not happiness. It's just something we use to move happiness around. So although there may be, in certain specific moments (like your family, this month) a fixed amount of money available to trade with other people for things you want, there is not a fixed amount of happiness in the world. You can make more happiness. Happiness has been getting created and destroyed (but on balance, created) for all of human history."

So yeah, wealth, happiness, well-being, none of these are fixed, and we can engender greater levels of each by building a better society, it's not a fixed pie graph. But your argument doesn't imply that wealth, happiness, etc. can't or shouldn't be shared by people. The significance of the huge wealth gap we face today is not the fact that money is so unequal, but the fact that it directly implies that well-being is not being optimized for the majority of society. The point is that many people have the ability to alleviate suffering and increase the well-being of society at little cost to themselves, but fail to do so. Morally inefficient, you might call it. If this could be done voluntarily, and maybe one day it can, we would have no need for taxes, but as it stands, we need them to correct for our shortcomings.

[StepS]

I almost thought it was a wiki-like autospam 
but aren't you the one who made RR maps?

[TheWalrus]

I think I was Pure when I was in your clan Wally.. honestly been too long. Read your "politics display" on the forums.
Socialism/higher taxes and the like are discussed often, but the amount of detailed dialogue intrigued me. I read almost all of it.
This is a very hot topic in the US. I'm a business owner and investor in Washington state, paying extremely
high taxes while making nothing(if not taking losses) And yes, It's confusing.
I personally am surprised to see the differ of opin, between Mablak and Wally and others. Given,
it was about 10 years ago that I had conversations with the two, but I would regard these
 individuals to have intellectual authority.  I remember Mablak explaining
 the Smashing pumpkins to me following which I purchased 4 albums. And many conversations. Smart kid. and heated debates with Wally when we started a clan with Anubis... so

Nonetheless people really need to get a better scope on why capitalism works. The problem is that people see money as a pie graph. they think that if one person gets wealthy he takes from the pie. but wealth is something that grows. the pie is always changing in size. I can remember believing, as a child, that if a few rich people had all the money, it left less for everyone else. Many people seem to continue to believe something like this well into adulthood. This fallacy is usually there in the background when you hear someone talking about how x percent of the population have y percent of the wealth. If you plan to start a startup, then whether you realize it or not, you're planning to disprove the Pie Fallacy.

What leads people astray here is the abstraction of money. Money is not wealth. It's just something we use to move wealth around. So although there may be, in certain specific moments (like your family, this month) a fixed amount of money available to trade with other people for things you want, there is not a fixed amount of wealth in the world. You can make more wealth. Wealth has been getting created and destroyed (but on balance, created) for all of human history.

Suppose you own a beat-up old car. Instead of sitting on your butt next summer, you could spend the time restoring your car to pristine condition. In doing so you create wealth. The world is-- and you specifically are-- one pristine old car the richer. And not just in some metaphorical way. If you sell your car, you'll get more for it.
In restoring your old car you have made yourself richer. You haven't made anyone else poorer. So there is obviously not a fixed pie. And in fact, when you look at it this way, you wonder why anyone would think there was.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The people most likely to grasp that wealth can be created are the ones who are good at making things, the craftsmen. Their hand-made objects become store-bought ones. But with the rise of industrialization there are fewer and fewer craftsmen. One of the biggest remaining groups is computer programmers.
A programmer can sit down in front of a computer and create wealth. A good piece of software is, in itself, a valuable thing. There is no manufacturing to confuse the issue. Those characters you type are a complete, finished product. If someone sat down and wrote a web browser that didn't suck (a fine idea, by the way), the world would be that much richer.

Ryan (myself) fits the category (craftsmen) I build and remodel homes. then I pay taxes for more than the value of the home I created.. so understanding how people that won't just make wealth for themselves seem to think rich people owe them something?.. No f@#!ing way. I don't give the US even a glimmer of hope in the same way I wouldn't give Greece one either.
Debt doesn't work. It's really that simple.
Wally if you're around we should chat. I'm not sure if I'm going to buy worms again :x
(sorry about the rant) for those who are easily offended

Joe, yes its been at least 8 years. I know cuz I broke my WA cd 8 yrs ago
Does our favorite little over-zealous computer gamer Alex still exist?

Ahh, purem8.  i dont play worms so that wouldnt help you in getting in touch with me.  i did the msn thing for awhile but skype would probably be the best way to reach me.  i pm'ed you my address.

[Chicken23]

I think I was Pure when I was in your clan Wally.. honestly been too long. Read your "politics display" on the forums.
Socialism/higher taxes and the like are discussed often, but the amount of detailed dialogue intrigued me. I read almost all of it.
This is a very hot topic in the US. I'm a business owner and investor in Washington state, paying extremely
high taxes while making nothing(if not taking losses) And yes, It's confusing.
I personally am surprised to see the differ of opin, between Mablak and Wally and others. Given,
it was about 10 years ago that I had conversations with the two, but I would regard these
 individuals to have intellectual authority.  I remember Mablak explaining
 the Smashing pumpkins to me following which I purchased 4 albums. And many conversations. Smart kid. and heated debates with Wally when we started a clan with Anubis... so

Nonetheless people really need to get a better scope on why capitalism works. The problem is that people see money as a pie graph. they think that if one person gets wealthy he takes from the pie. but wealth is something that grows. the pie is always changing in size. I can remember believing, as a child, that if a few rich people had all the money, it left less for everyone else. Many people seem to continue to believe something like this well into adulthood. This fallacy is usually there in the background when you hear someone talking about how x percent of the population have y percent of the wealth. If you plan to start a startup, then whether you realize it or not, you're planning to disprove the Pie Fallacy.

What leads people astray here is the abstraction of money. Money is not wealth. It's just something we use to move wealth around. So although there may be, in certain specific moments (like your family, this month) a fixed amount of money available to trade with other people for things you want, there is not a fixed amount of wealth in the world. You can make more wealth. Wealth has been getting created and destroyed (but on balance, created) for all of human history.

Suppose you own a beat-up old car. Instead of sitting on your butt next summer, you could spend the time restoring your car to pristine condition. In doing so you create wealth. The world is-- and you specifically are-- one pristine old car the richer. And not just in some metaphorical way. If you sell your car, you'll get more for it.
In restoring your old car you have made yourself richer. You haven't made anyone else poorer. So there is obviously not a fixed pie. And in fact, when you look at it this way, you wonder why anyone would think there was.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The people most likely to grasp that wealth can be created are the ones who are good at making things, the craftsmen. Their hand-made objects become store-bought ones. But with the rise of industrialization there are fewer and fewer craftsmen. One of the biggest remaining groups is computer programmers.
A programmer can sit down in front of a computer and create wealth. A good piece of software is, in itself, a valuable thing. There is no manufacturing to confuse the issue. Those characters you type are a complete, finished product. If someone sat down and wrote a web browser that didn't suck (a fine idea, by the way), the world would be that much richer.

Ryan (myself) fits the category (craftsmen) I build and remodel homes. then I pay taxes for more than the value of the home I created.. so understanding how people that won't just make wealth for themselves seem to think rich people owe them something?.. No f@#!ing way. I don't give the US even a glimmer of hope in the same way I wouldn't give Greece one either.
Debt doesn't work. It's really that simple.
Wally if you're around we should chat. I'm not sure if I'm going to buy worms again :x
(sorry about the rant) for those who are easily offended

Joe, yes its been at least 8 years. I know cuz I broke my WA cd 8 yrs ago
Does our favorite little over-zealous computer gamer Alex still exist?

Hah, what's up Pure? I thought you were one of those wormers who was lost forever! Glad to see WA and its denizens still haunt your memories. I remember the good old days when all that mattered in WA was roping, ahh so much fun back then, I was still learnin' ropes from the greats like yerself. It's awesome that you have your own business, and unfortunate that you're paying more taxes than you should. I'm just making music right now while I'm inbetween jobs, a bit entrepreneurial as well, though who knows if I can ever make a living off of it. I agree with you that money doesn't mean anything in itself, and I'd take what you say further, by replacing 'wealth' with happiness, or well-being, since that's really what makes wealth important in the end:

"What leads people astray here is the abstraction of money. Money is not happiness. It's just something we use to move happiness around. So although there may be, in certain specific moments (like your family, this month) a fixed amount of money available to trade with other people for things you want, there is not a fixed amount of happiness in the world. You can make more happiness. Happiness has been getting created and destroyed (but on balance, created) for all of human history."

So yeah, wealth, happiness, well-being, none of these are fixed, and we can engender greater levels of each by building a better society, it's not a fixed pie graph. But your argument doesn't imply that wealth, happiness, etc. can't or shouldn't be shared by people. The significance of the huge wealth gap we face today is not the fact that money is so unequal, but the fact that it directly implies that well-being is not being optimized for the majority of society. The point is that many people have the ability to alleviate suffering and increase the well-being of society at little cost to themselves, but fail to do so. Morally inefficient, you might call it. If this could be done voluntarily, and maybe one day it can, we would have no need for taxes, but as it stands, we need them to correct for our shortcomings.

I haven't read your political debates in the forums you guys have but even the posts you make here are well written and have points.

As for voluntarily sharing and looking for some utopian collective socialist mindsets to create communitarianism on a national scheme, it just won't happen in my opinion. It's part of our human nature to be greedy, (im not saying everyone is, there total selfless mindsets out there too) some people want more than they need. I think its right for the state that govern nations to enforce taxes so that we can create welfare states to support those who are born into unfortuante situations.
The questions that i studied when i wrote my dissertation was the degree to how much we tax, how much we support, and how much we should leave to free market economics to supply the welfare people may require (at a cost  ).. Adam smith's invisible hand and keynesianism economics and all that