The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Worms: Armageddon => General discussion => Topic started by: Mablak on December 02, 2011, 07:48 AM
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If used with notching, people can gain a bit of an advantage in BnG (and other schemes) by placing markings on/under their monitors, I even did it for a little while myself, and a number of people seem to currently do this. It's especially helpful for 4 second full power shots, petrol, etc, so you can know exactly where they'll land.
This subject is iffy, but I think we shouldn't allow any kind of visual aids for the game, no matter how small or inconspicuous they might be. It's just one of those things that would look very amateur in a live setting, and to me, playing as if someone else is watching is the standard we should adhere to.
Lack of enforceablility doesn't matter much to me; unlike notching, this is at least something we could enforce in a live setting.
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it's so f@#!ing lame.....
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Ye,it's kinda lame :-[
Just one question: let's say that this stuff will be forbidden,how can you know if someone actually uses it,or not ? :)
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Gj Mablak, now people who didn't know this trick will use it for sure ;D And I suggest them to don't use marks, it's lame, better scratch a screen, works 100% :D
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I voted yes because purely from an enforcability point of view. There is simply no way to be sure anyone is using this technique, if it is banned it's either going to cause problems or do nothing.
What do you mean a live setting? You mean a lan game? When does this ever happen in worms?
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All these techniques: notching, using markers, putting your finger on the screen to remember angles etc, they are all used to make shooting easier.
Q - Why would anyone want to make shooting easier?
Because missing is boring? To improve the chance of winning the game?
Some people gain more happiness from playing a game if they win than if they lose. That is for sure. I think being a bad loser is something that can affect anyone. Even the most pleasant and noble people. It's just that feeling of utter sadness that falls upon someone if they lose a game. A bad loser is likely to use these techniques to save them the emotional distress of losing.
On the flip side, I think some people feel a bit dirty using nerfing techniques. Even if they win the game they don't actually feel very good about it so they would never notch or use markers. They'd rather lose the game than win it cheaply.
Whether markers should be legal depends a lot on the person and their own sense of pride.
It can't be denied that these techniques make shooting easier....and should this game be nerfed?
Hmmm :<
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:< is more appropriate than ever 8)
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I know Anubis used to have markings on his monitor a couple years ago. It wasn't that big of a deal to me to be honest.. I consider it cheap tho, that's why I voted "no". As a casual notcher I'm kinda proud that I don't have to rely on markings, it's all in my head lol.
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del
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Well, if BnG is a war, then blaming some1 in notching/marking is like blaming USA in using better weapons/technologies than some african country ;D The Law of the Jungle!
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Impossible to enforce, making creating such a rule a complete waste of time. You can say it's not okay all you want but you won't be able to stop anybody from doing it.
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Impossible to enforce, making creating such a rule a complete waste of time. You can say it's not okay all you want but you won't be able to stop anybody from doing it.
Which is why BnG 'purists' are always going to have issues playing their favorite scheme online. If they want a 100% clean game they are never going to get it, unless they play selected opponents who feel the same way as them. This was part of the reason I stopped caring a lot about BnG many years ago.
I remember this one BnG game which frustrated me greatly because I felt I was beaten by totally cheap tactics which I could do nothing about from a very popular and respected player. I knew then it was time to move on from BnG and concentrate on schemes which wouldn't frustrate me so much.
Competitive BnG is a bit tricky these days :<
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I used to have a clan mate on wwp who used marks on his laptop's screen which he made by pressing it with his finger nail. Always seemed a bit nerdy to me and i still think so. :) Anyway, there is just no way to detect if someone uses marks on his display, so i think the discussion whether to allow it or not is quite obsolete...
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waiting for the update that ruins full power shots. the power bar should go back down after hitting full power, making it difficult to shoot full power shots every time. this feature should be in bng/elite/hysteria/team17/etc.
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waiting for the update that ruins full power shots. the power bar should go back down after hitting full power, making it difficult to shoot full power shots every time. this feature should be in bng/elite/hysteria/team17/etc.
It exists with rubberworm. You have to write /alp in the chat before the game
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thats bullshit
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A rule regarding this would not be pointless. We already have rules that are important, but still unenforceable, namely regarding the use of external programs and macros. People really shouldn't vote yes just because it can't be enforced; there would still be an effect on honest players who want to play by the rules (and people can still change their votes btw).
By labeling markings as illegal, that would mean players using them are actually cheating, not just doing something 'lame'. 'Lame' isn't a deterrent for players like me, I only care about the rules, and using every legal advantage I can. This poll will at the very least affect whether I use markings or not, I wouldn't have started it if I was content using them and keeping it to myself.
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'Lame' isn't a deterrent for players like me, I only care about the rules, and using every legal advantage I can.
My problem with BnG and my attitude towards my games condensed :)
I voted "no" as a principle thing, however, if one has more fun resorting to that then what can you do?
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A rule regarding this would not be pointless. We already have rules that are important, but still unenforceable, namely regarding the use of external programs and macros. People really shouldn't vote yes just because it can't be enforced; there would still be an effect on honest players who want to play by the rules (and people can still change their votes btw).
By labeling markings as illegal, that would mean players using them are actually cheating, not just doing something 'lame'. 'Lame' isn't a deterrent for players like me, I only care about the rules, and using every legal advantage I can. This poll will at the very least affect whether I use markings or not, I wouldn't have started it if I was content using them and keeping it to myself.
How will you detect people marking their display?
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Do people even read my posts when they're more than 2 sentences long?
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Do people even read my posts when they're more than 2 sentences long?
its called the "komo syndrome"
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Do people even read my posts when they're more than 2 sentences long?
its called the "komo syndrome"
Both not reading them as well as writing them is under the same syndrome XD
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What's the point in setting up a rule when you can't confirm that someone was breaking that rule... you give the use of cheat tools as an example, probably referring to SnipeR using AHK, getting banned for that. Well, MI must have had sure proof for him using that tool otherwise he wouldn't have gotten banned. Or at least he must've thought he has sure proof. ;)
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I have taken notice of this as well, and was kind of waiting for this to come up. The amazing, magnificant 100% accurate (literally) throws with petrol to block players hiding darn well and so on durin games in elite (scheme) has increased HEAVINGLY. I might sound like a jealous guy saying this, as I am and always have been a pretty rotten bng player, but some of this is just so plain obvious.. CPU-1 and his mates would even go and cry in the corner.
It`s like you go up for an exam and score a 100% test (its too good to be true!!), after normally having tested at an average of 70-75% just few months ahead. I find it pathetic to cheat in Worms to be honest, we are a small community with a genuine interest and if you chose to cheat in a way like this, your life has got to be pretty sad. What I can say though is that I`ve lost some, if not all, respect to the opponents I`ve been seeing doing this. Is losing face punishment enough in itself? Not for everyone. For me, I value respect over skill, but I don`t think everyone follow this pattern. So maybe we should not allow it ;O
I also believe that if this was enforced as a rule, some of those players who are using it would go back to not using it, because they as Mablak says would want to play the game in a legal and fair way.
Edit: By cheat I mean lame and vice versa, so yes, I consider it cheating.
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Lets see if anyone got the guts to come forward and just admit it and speak openly about it. THAT would be one of the most admirable things I`ve seen anyone do in this community. Franz still leads this by far, having taken one hell of a tough decision by ruining both his name and reputation, instead of taking the easy way out and just leave the game. Look at him now, he`s a more respected player then he`s ever been. Maybe I`m being too serious about this but things like this just really pisses me off, and I will to be honest consider leaving the game myself if no rule against it will be enforced.
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What's the point in setting up a rule when you can't confirm that someone was breaking that rule... you give the use of cheat tools as an example, probably referring to SnipeR using AHK, getting banned for that. Well, MI must have had sure proof for him using that tool otherwise he wouldn't have gotten banned. Or at least he must've thought he has sure proof. ;)
Well, by this reasoning, using slow motion programs would be perfectly legal if Cybershadow and Deadcode weren't around, since without those two, we wouldn't be able to detect them.
In every video game there are important rules against cheating that can't be enforced. Let cheaters cheat, let honorable people play with dignity by not having game-ruining things allowed/encouraged.
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waiting for the update that ruins full power shots. the power bar should go back down after hitting full power, making it difficult to shoot full power shots every time. this feature should be in bng/elite/hysteria/team17/etc.
whaaat? something like that is coming out?
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So who will (officially) decide if it's cheating or not? MonkeyIsland? ???
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No, it is a decision for the king, so if I find out any slave using this trick ill cut off finger by finger.
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Well, by this reasoning, using slow motion programs would be perfectly legal if Cybershadow and Deadcode weren't around, since without those two, we wouldn't be able to detect them.
The point is, when it comes to a complaint or a suspicious replay you just cannot proof that some1 has been marking his display. Same with using cheat programs, there was long discussion about SnipeR, finally he admitted he used some AHK script, but if that wouldn't have been the case, his ban would be well controversial as MonkeyIsland never really gave any exact information how they have detected him using the script. Now imagine a mass of complaints if you set up this rule without being able to prove it (especially in a scheme like bng where people spot laming and cheating all over the place). Pointless.
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Again, a single problem of people mentality.
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probably would have been a good idea not to open a thread about this... it cant be enforced so all this really is is a discussion thats putting ideas in some lame players heads
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I wouldn't make it legal, but anyway as chakk have said, there's no way to prove it, so... What can U do? U can only proclaim it lame here in this topic and that's all..
Komo have used his thumb all the time and we only know that because he told us so. Thumb is kinda same thing as monitor markings, so... What can U do?
The whole thing is too irrational to make a rule out of it. It's all kinda on a players personality..
And that's all rock n' roll.. ;x
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I don't like this and I think even though there's no way to detect this, we should make some boundaries and draw the line somewhere. But us drawing the line, will teach potential "lamers" to go there faster. There are very few people who do this, there will be more when they see it in the rules.
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I don't like this and I think even though there's no way to detect this, we should make some boundaries and draw the line somewhere. But us drawing the line, will teach potential "lamers" to go there faster. There are very few people who do this, there will be more when they see it in the rules.
But you realize, not having a rule against something means it's legal. It is currently okay to use markings, which is precisely why some people are using them. I'll be using markings if nothing comes of this thread, and I'll encourage other players to use them as well.
You could simply phrase it as no using 'visual aids', that term is general enough to not give people too many ideas.
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It's an unwritten law. Just because the rules don't specifically state it (yet) doesn't mean it isn't cheating.
You're engaging in unfair competition, on purpose.
You have a splendid reputation Mablak, and the respect of the whole community. But this makes you really no better than say... Zippo.
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What if i have scratches and markings all over the screen, do i have to buy a new one?
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It's an unwritten law. Just because the rules don't specifically state it (yet) doesn't mean it isn't cheating.
You're engaging in unfair competition, on purpose.
You have a splendid reputation Mablak, and the respect of the whole community. But this makes you really no better than say... Zippo.
Unwritten laws are pointless in a league, we can't reasonably expect players to abide by them. Especially not new players, who would have no idea about such things.
BnG is an excellent example of how unwritten laws have gone wrong. Everyone has their own strange idea about what 'cheapness' entails. Some Brazillian once told me that you can't attempt the same type of shot twice in a row (though for him it was fine to do exact repeats every other shot), and some people now cry foul if you teleport near the middle of the map, even if you're a legal distance away.
Expecting people to follow unwritten laws has caused endless drama in BnG, because people are essentially playing with different sets of rules. I would say that encouraging the creation of unwritten laws is the source of much of the unfair competition in worms.
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What if i have scratches and markings all over the screen, do i have to buy a new one?
Only if you couldn't resist using them to aim, and you couldn't get rid of them or cover them up somehow. I mean if someone can have markings and avoid using them, that's fine, though that wouldn't fly in the 2015 televised TUS playoffs.
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Now seriously - ive said it many times, BnG (and anything thats related i.e throwings in Elite) is too sensitive for abuses and theres literally nothing we can do about it in this simple 2D game besides pointing out whats right and what is not, the rest is up to players and their playing style. For me markings on the screen are not right, on the other hand poiting your previous aim with a finger is kinda different - its the same as looking at ingame sprites to measure it, id say someone is deceiving himself for not using it.
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But you realize, not having a rule against something means it's legal.
Perhaps, but it doesn't neccesarily make it moral. Which is why some people don't use markers, even though they could.
If you think it would be good to have such rule, heck, you got my vote, why not. A rule like that is as effective as bad consciousness (for certain people completely ineffective) :)
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Now seriously - ive said it many times, BnG (and anything thats related i.e throwings in Elite) is too sensitive for abuses and theres literally nothing we can do about it in this simple 2D game besides pointing out whats right and what is not, the rest is up to players and their playing style. For me markings on the screen are not right, on the other hand poiting your previous aim with a finger is kinda different - its the same as looking at ingame sprites to measure it, id say someone is deceiving himself for not using it.
Well yeah, 'pointing out' means making a rule for it.
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But what do U do with the rule that cannot be controlled or judged? It's set there just to suit our moral criteria? ???
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BnG is an excellent example of how unwritten laws have gone wrong. Everyone has their own strange idea about what 'cheapness' entails. Some Brazillian once told me that you can't attempt the same type of shot twice in a row (though for him it was fine to do exact repeats every other shot), and some people now cry foul if you teleport near the middle of the map, even if you're a legal distance away.
I like to think there's a difference between the unwritten laws not to cheap too much in BnG's and using all kinds of programs or measuring devices to make a perfect shot time after time.
But yeah, the 'cheapness' rules killed BnG. If it were up to me we'd replace BnG with randomsteria or something of that kind.
Heck, if I were to start a new league I'd kick out half of the schemes we have now and replace them with something straightforward and diverse (not purist BnG, purist rope (RR) or that abomination called WxW).
Expecting people to follow unwritten laws has caused endless drama in BnG, because people are essentially playing with different sets of rules. I would say that encouraging the creation of unwritten laws is the source of much of the unfair competition in worms.
Hm. What are you pleading for? BnG with all cheapness and cheats allowed? Or a bunch of rules that cannot be possibly enforced but only give people bad ideas?
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Something like 'No using external visual aids' is all I'm asking for, I don't think that would give people too many ideas. I suppose people rarely check the rules, but at least it would be there if the subject came up.
But I do play BnG now with no regard for cheapness, that's the way it should be. Last clanner I played that way had no drama at all, hallelujah. I'd also like to replace BnG with something else, though this marking discussion applies to other schemes as well.
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What do you think about /reaim feature in RubberWorm? It resets aim every turn. Since everyone who plays classic/free league has rubberworm installed now, that shouldn't make a problem. And that would be more fair I think (also to note that RubberWorm is already included in the upcoming beta update).
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Steps, its not like every player wants secondary programs/modules to play the league, im guessing a lot of people would be pissed if they had to, including me, so slow down please with all those PX/Rubber for everyone. Also reaim isnt the problem.
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hm from the metaphysical pov i cant see much sense creating a rule which cant be accomplished.
following the rule would only depend on the peoples morale, so kinda the same as having no rule.
i would feel total stupid doing marks on my screen or using my thumb. on the other hand how to draw the line? lacoste says using marks sucks but using thumb is ok, although the sense of both methods is the same.i think it will only cause trouble when we try to make rules for something which doesnt belong to the game itself.
why not banning all players with an iq over 100 from playing leagues? its definitly lame they are using their full potential while others are limited.
maybe we all should stop hang on to the romantic idea of non cheap playing in leagues. you dont see footballplayer doin crazy tricks all the time in a league mtach. they also fall down by the weakest contact in the pnealty area just to gain advantage.
when it comes about ranks and points people will always try to increase their chances of winning, lets be happy we dont got a huge problem with cheaters and forget about marks on the screen, and all this other stuff. aslong as people dont use programms directly affecting the game, all is ok for me.
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lacoste says using marks sucks but using thumb is ok, although the sense of both methods is the same.
Well, ill try to explain how different it is. In most of the cases you have some bit of terrain infront of crosshair (no matter if its some object like tree or ground theme), so you set your aim, remember it, throw grenade, grenade misses and on the next turn you make a correction to your crosshair by x pixels. Depending on how good you are and if you are not pushed, you will either hit or miss next turn, but its still nothing sure (same thing is with your finger, even if it sucks, still you have terrain sprites to measure it most of the time, which would be deceiving to not to use it as i said). However if you mark every full power shot on your screen, you have 100% chance of hitting on every first try, its like having coordinates and all you have to do is press space and hold it. It wont work all the time on BnG coz you are anchored, but elite is screwed.
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ty lacoste, so you dont have a problem with using a specific technique to remember shots. you just think this mark method is to powerful.
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Yes, i cant find how easier reaiming can win you a game vs equal/better player.
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Komo have used his thumb all the time and we only know that because he told us so. Thumb is kinda same thing as monitor markings, so... What can U do?
Wtf ?! Is that true ? o0
BnG (and anything thats related i.e throwings in Elite) is too sensitive for abuses and theres literally nothing we can do about it
Yeah, except stop playing it.
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Steps, its not like every player wants secondary programs/modules to play the league, im guessing a lot of people would be pissed if they had to, including me, so slow down please with all those PX/Rubber for everyone. Also reaim isnt the problem.
but it's officially included in the upcoming beta update :P so it's not an external tool anymore
PS: and you do say, but Free league includes Kaos as well. ;)
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Whats 3.6.33.2 coz im not following?
Free league is optional and it differs a lot than classics
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Free league is optional and it differs a lot than classics
ok
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so, does "no visual aids" also include a usual piece of paper to aim with shotgun?
tbh: I dont really like this kind of rule. I would prefer making it more public, cause visual aids definetly increase the possibilities ingame.
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Well of course, you wouldn't be able to use paper to aim. Think about how lame using paper or markings would look to someone watching you play in real life, it's just not how high level gaming should work.
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Well of course, you wouldn't be able to use paper to aim. Think about how lame using paper or markings would look to someone watching you play in real life, it's just not how high level gaming should work.
about as lame as it would look just playing worms period, comparing apples and oranges there
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LAN ftw ?
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WORMSCON IS COMING!!!
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WORMSCON IS COMING!!!
Colon just sent me my plane tickets in the mail the other day. I'm excited!
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Well of course, you wouldn't be able to use paper to aim. Think about how lame using paper or markings would look to someone watching you play in real life, it's just not how high level gaming should work.
That's true. True gaming would be the environment which players play on a big screen like a cinema and people watching them. You can't even use your thumb or anything like that there. It would be just you, keyboard and the big screen. Based on that, no visual aids, no programs, nothing would be possible.
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So.. glasses are "visual aids" too? ???
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So.. glasses are "visual aids" too? ???
That's right stat, you really just have to accept the way you were made, no eyesight cheating.
But here's something else to consider, a person could simply write down every BnG shot applicable to a certain distance, and merely look at it every turn. If the worm were 800 pixels away, you could just look at your list of shots and choose one based on how easy it is and how much angle you have. Maybe it's a stretch to call that a 'visual aid' but it's some kind of aid at least.
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ITT Mablak reveals why he's so good at bng :'(
Well of course, you wouldn't be able to use paper to aim. Think about how lame using paper or markings would look to someone watching you play in real life, it's just not how high level gaming should work.
about as lame as it would look just playing worms period, comparing apples and oranges there
ye it's pretty shameful init :'(
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But here's something else to consider, a person could simply write down every BnG shot applicable to a certain distance, and merely look at it every turn. If the worm were 800 pixels away, you could just look at your list of shots and choose one based on how easy it is and how much angle you have. Maybe it's a stretch to call that a 'visual aid' but it's some kind of aid at least.
Glad you said that, that list/table of shots is a very good aid. Now on the next level, what if someone learn it by heart? You know like math multiply table. That makes it OK?
I myself would love to learn such table. I find my BnG skills needs warming like roping. I need to play a bit to get the hang of my shots. But with such "table of shots" I can play BnG anytime, even when I'm not in the mood.
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if people can just write down all the shots, why have a scheme like that in a league? there's no skill there. What if you could program the best and fastest way for your worm to rope through a rr map by magic? why would we have a ttrr scheme then? same thing, except people can actually do that lame shit with bng
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Legalize every non software based aid!
I dont see how you guys think that using a piece of paper will take away any skill in this game. I would make some tutorials for some easy visual aids for those who dont know yet.
I really dont like taking away that many possibilities.
Regarding the "writing down shots in bng"-discussion: I wanted to do this at one point, but I was simply too lazy to do it, cause its really a lot of work if you wanna have a good table.
I think there's nothing wrong to write down such a table if you wanna do it. Everyone could do it, so its no unfair advantage at all.
Imo, nearly every player in the top20 tel standings has some visual aid for kamikaze. It just makes playing more accurate and the quality of the games is better.
You don't need to know everything, you just gotta know where its written down.
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it isn't as much work as you think. Just look at how many people have learned how to notch. Anyone can figure out how to test that stuff offline and write it down. I mean, it doesn't really reflect skill when any scrub can do that
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it isn't as much work as you think. Just look at how many people have learned how to notch. Anyone can figure out how to test that stuff offline and write it down. I mean, it doesn't really reflect skill when any scrub can do that
why noone did it then?
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it isn't as much work as you think. Just look at how many people have learned how to notch. Anyone can figure out how to test that stuff offline and write it down. I mean, it doesn't really reflect skill when any scrub can do that
why noone did it then?
people have done it before... and besides, it doesn't matter if just a small minority have done it, doesn't make it any less lame in theory. Like Mab said, if it were against the rules, at least that would prevent the law abiders from doing it... if a rule implementation only made one person stop, it's a success as opposed to having that one more person still doing that shit
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one thing keeps me from doing any of these cheating methods - laziness. I can't be assed to figure any of this shit out, but if someone wants to send me a modded monitor im cool with that. ;D
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i tried to put in some marks but i really failed.
(http://i-cdn.apartmenttherapy.com/uimages/unplggd/121809_rg_BrokenScreen_01.jpg)
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Most monitors have something written under the screen, I know that my old screen hat weird painting under the screen where I just related the color to the distance, if the worm was standing near "blue" I knew that it's a straight up full power Zook with 1 strength to the left. Since it was a symmetrical it applied to both wind sides.
Later on I just extended that by making additional markings since it made sense to me, never felt like cheating to me tbh. I actually thought it is smart, lol. :D
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Regarding the "writing down shots in bng"-discussion: I wanted to do this at one point, but I was simply too lazy to do it, cause its really a lot of work if you wanna have a good table.
Easier to notch, right ?
Anyway, I'm gonna draw on a layer the worms position (1) + every shots angle & power (2).
So I'll just have to put it on my screen and crop my worm with (1) and the aim with (2).
It's not a prog, just some "help".
Since everybody does it, I'll too. Except I tell you I'll do.
PS: I'm glad to have fairly beaten many of those cheaters. :)
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bah
I think notching and marking shots (or just middling them with some stuff) are really lame.
But lamentably we cannot do anything against this, cause we cannot see througout the screen :D
So I think this time this talking is really senseless.
Its out of moral of each one, if they do it, or no ::)
And I remember that I used to middle some shots at BnG (when used to play offline)
and I made a lot of maths and stuff about shots winds and things. That copybook went to the landfill thanks to my mother. xD
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Imo, nearly every player in the top20 tel standings has some visual aid for kamikaze. It just makes playing more accurate and the quality of the games is better.
What you call quality of the games is only higher if you assume that the person watching the replay is clueless about how those impressively accurate moves are being done. Once he learns that the top players use visual aids to gain an advantage, such a spectator will likely think less of Worms Armageddon's potential for competitive gaming, simply because it allows something like that. All discussion about enforceability aside, I don't think you can form a reasonable argument explaining how using a cheat sheet is objectively more skillful than developing a feel for the behaviour of any weapon in the game.
Without exception, doing the same thing in your head, without the cheat sheet or ruler or whatever, is more impressive, meaning that in scenarios where these things can be enforced, the overall capacity for skill is higher if you don't allow external aids. Can we agree on that, at least?
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Well said KRD, I`d give you an applaud for that post.
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Sure, its more impressive if you remember all things instead of looking them up.
But imo using paper for worms games is like using formulary for math tests. You simply have more time for the important stuff, e.g. tactical behaviour in Elite.
Dario for example has written down a lot of distances, flying behaviour of worms, maximum angles for certain situations, etc. I dont see why you shouldnt use those things.
The only scheme where this would make sense is bng imo, because its a very technical scheme.
In Intermediate for example it makes a HUGE difference (for me) if I play with writing down things (opponents worms' names, used weaps) or not...
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If there is more important thing than aiming at Worms, then we didn't play the same game.
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so you win your elite games only with your aiming skills? its nice how you pick up a special part of randoms post and generalize it to something where he looks stupid. well atleast it shows you know how propaganda works.
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markings/paper which show/make almost perfect shot... if thats allowed and bot not. whats the huge difference between?? lol
when i started to play elite i had kami marks for a little time. its dämn cheating, nothing else.
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If my aiming skills were perfect, I would won every Elite, yeah.
PS: You call putting the meaning of his sentence to his right place "generalizing" ?
He generalized what I answered. Just so it doesn't look as dumb as it is.
And I just pointed out the dumb part.
Now if you want to counter me, you'll have to use your brain.
In addition, don't point a specific scheme (elite there), 'cause this problem involves every schemes.
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Most monitors have something written under the screen, I know that my old screen hat weird painting under the screen where I just related the color to the distance, if the worm was standing near "blue" I knew that it's a straight up full power Zook with 1 strength to the left. Since it was a symmetrical it applied to both wind sides.
Later on I just extended that by making additional markings since it made sense to me, never felt like cheating to me tbh. I actually thought it is smart, lol. :D
I think it's fine to use buttons or things that are part of your monitor to help you aim, because it's not like there are any monitors out there that come with gridlines, not much danger of abuse. I think we should just disallow further markings because they basically allow you to not even have to use your memory for shots.
I mean people complain that BnG becomes entirely a game of memory once you start notching, but with markings or written down shots, even that's taken away. You should at the very least have to remember notches and their distances. If someone gave a newbie a master list of shots and taught them how to notch (and they used visual aids), they would be a pro in a matter of weeks.
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1 thing that worries me is why people after so many years playing this game would use help to determine kami explosion? Its no big deal for anyone paying minimum attention to detail and knowing how it works. Same goes for every distance/trajectory, its what you should learn over the time, not make the sheet of paper to play for you. Also, when you find time to pick paper, place it on the screen and then drop it in lets say Elite, that requires a lot skills to me if you have 20 sec to run and execute a move :D Honestly, id lol at this if i saw someone doing it offline.
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Sure, its more impressive if you remember all things instead of looking them up.
But imo using paper for worms games is like using formulary for math tests. You simply have more time for the important stuff, e.g. tactical behaviour in Elite.
Dario for example has written down a lot of distances, flying behaviour of worms, maximum angles for certain situations, etc. I dont see why you shouldnt use those things.
The only scheme where this would make sense is bng imo, because its a very technical scheme.
In Intermediate for example it makes a HUGE difference (for me) if I play with writing down things (opponents worms' names, used weaps) or not...
Dario doesn't have those things written down, he's simply committed them to memory, like most intermediate players; he also frowns on the use of paper to aim straight. Also, most people including myself use their finger as a kami ruler, and there's nothing wrong with that, since the length is still prone to error.
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I just tested, my finger is exactly the length of a kami. Good to know. ^^
Oh and, I agree with what random said. Even with lots of markings there are things to consider, since different depth / height of the worm and the target make the aiming different too. Sure it's an advantage so imo it should be accessible to everyone. With the exception of live events there is no such tool to detect if someone is using markings etc., makes it senseless to make a rule against it so by my logic it's just smarter to give everyone the same chances.
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Once again, a rule about this is just as 'senseless' as a rule about macros, which are also undetectable. It's very important that people aren't allowed to use macros for aiming, mine drops, roping, and various other things. Just like macros, allowing visual aids and memory aids simply cheapens the skill of WA itself, and makes aspects of it such as BnG not worth playing.
By allowing visual aids and memory aids (and along those lines you would have to make macros legal as well), some current players and potential future players will be turned off from the game when they hear about them, isn't that a good enough reason to make them illegal?
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I like the whole idea of 'what would you do in a live match'.
If you find yourself using tactics and guides which you probably wouldn't use in a live match then you know its time to stop using those tactics.
No one would feel cool about putting their finger on a screen to remember a shot. How to lose all your gaming kudos! Like Lacoste said, use the terrain to your advantage.
Its only natural for a community obsessed with a game to test out different ways to enhance accuracy and improve performance but if you're winning using methods you'd actually be embarrassed to use in public then simply stop because being a genuinely cool person is better than winning without style.
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But imo using paper for worms games is like using formulary for math tests. You simply have more time for the important stuff, e.g. tactical behaviour in Elite.
If you bring i.e. a table of derivatives to a math test and your teacher allows it, it's because the concept of derivatives has already been tested in previous tests. What's important for your teacher is not to test that specific knowledge, but something else you can apply it to.
Your analogy is read like this: the fact that you are able to damage a worm is something given, something that is not part of the skills that are tested in competitive gameplay. And that's where it's wrong.
If your paper guarantees you attacking success, and you can "have more time for the important stuff", what you really are doing is bypassing the problem of having to hit a worm in the first place. And this problem is in fact one of the key aspects of default schemes.
Moreso in competitive games, where it's not just a matter of playing by the book, because there are other external factors like pressure, urgencies, adversity, etc. A paper (or markings or other) that guarantees you attacking success takes all of that out of the question.
In short, you're bringing a derivatives table to a derivatives test, not to an integrals test. Can your teacher allow that to happen?
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In short, you're bringing a derivatives table to a derivatives test, not to an integrals test. Can your teacher allow that to happen?
you're reducing a whole Elite game to 1 turn of this game where you attack with kamikaze (cause at the moment, thats the only visual aid I use in Elite). And even there you need to figure out how to reach the spot where you can launch the kami.
I think there's a big difference between that.
If my aiming skills were perfect, I would won every Elite, yeah.
there's a slight difference between having perfect aiming skills and using visual aids. Correct me if I'm wrong.
He generalized what I answered. Just so it doesn't look as dumb as it is.
I didnt refer to your post, so I dont think I generalized anything you said.
If there is more important thing than aiming at Worms, then we didn't play the same game.
We probably didnt play the same game then. It surely depends on the scheme, skill of players, etc. how important technical and tactical components are.
I have one question there: What exactly do you mean by "aiming"?
If you mean every aspect of technical mastering a weapon, then I have to admit that this is the most important thing in almost every single worms game.
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you're reducing a whole Elite game to 1 turn of this game where you attack with kamikaze (cause at the moment, thats the only visual aid I use in Elite).
And notching ?
there's a slight difference between having perfect aiming skills and using visual aids. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Nop, is the same if well done.
I didnt refer to your post, so I dont think I generalized anything you said.
I refered to your post, and detailled it.
So "you generalized" what I said.
If there is more important thing than aiming at Worms, then we didn't play the same game.
We probably didnt play the same game then. It surely depends on the scheme, skill of players, etc. how important technical and tactical components are.
I have one question there: What exactly do you mean by "aiming"?
If you mean every aspect of technical mastering a weapon, then I have to admit that this is the most important thing in almost every single worms game.
On every scheme, with every players, etc.. You have to kill your opponent. Which is done by aiming and shooting.
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And notching ?
You can notch without any visual aid. I know that you dont like notching, but this discussion is about visual aids, so lets focus on this, ok?
there's a slight difference between having perfect aiming skills and using visual aids. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Nop, is the same if well done.
I find it pretty obvious that its not the same. There are tons of example where you obviously can't be (a lot) better with some visual aid such as a paper: flying a supersheep, missile, airstrike/napalm, even every nade, zook shot that is not full power... basically: almost every shot possible. You can improve certain aspects of various weapons, but there are just very few weapons where you gain perfection by simply using some visual aid (kamikaze is the only one I can think of at the moment).
On every scheme, with every players, etc.. You have to kill your opponent. Which is done by aiming and shooting.
We're not talking on the same level here. If you're a lot better in tactical aspects (for example in Elite) than your opponent, you can easily beat him, even if he's slightly better in technical aspects (e.g. tossing nades/dyna drops/missile launching/etc).
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You can notch without any visual aid. I know that you dont like notching, but this discussion is about visual aids, so lets focus on this, ok?
Ok, seems fair.
I find it pretty obvious that its not the same. There are tons of example where you obviously can't be (a lot) better with some visual aid such as a paper: flying a supersheep, missile, airstrike/napalm, even every nade, zook shot that is not full power... basically: almost every shot possible. You can improve certain aspects of various weapons, but there are just very few weapons where you gain perfection by simply using some visual aid (kamikaze is the only one I can think of at the moment).
If I get some time to lose, I'll draw you a perfect way to 100% succeed your nade shots.
In addition, we were taking about aiming and visual aids (so half of your text is senseless there); or we don't have the same meaning of "aiming".
We're not talking on the same level here. If you're a lot better in tactical aspects (for example in Elite) than your opponent, you can easily beat him, even if he's slightly better in technical aspects (e.g. tossing nades/dyna drops/missile launching/etc).
A lot better means your opponent is near 0 strategy, which is pretty rare.
With your elite skills, against a decent player + 100% shots succeed, you'll lose: Anyway.
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sorry, i just meant the next beta. I don't know where the numbers arrived from in my head :-[
I've had talks with Deadcode and he said that he already implemented RubberWorm into WA (without graphical interface yet), except black hole and the Kawoosh's new features. A few days later, we've brought him the source code of rubber worm. He didn't look at it yet, but he will as soon as possible.
Sorry
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Then let's agree to disagree, Abnaxus. Since its just a theoretical experiment, noone of us is able to get some proof, so I think its best to stop this Elite discussion ^^
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Nicely said. ;)
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Imo, nearly every player in the top20 tel standings has some visual aid for kamikaze. It just makes playing more accurate and the quality of the games is better.
I don't, I use my menory and experience and sometimes i miss, sometimes I hit a kami for 56 damage... but then again.. Im not in the top 20 tel.. :p
It would be lame to get some kind of paper with markings on and line up before your kami shot.
WORMSCON IS COMING!!!
Colon just sent me my plane tickets in the mail the other day. I'm excited!
lmao!
But what do U do with the rule that cannot be controlled or judged? It's set there just to suit our moral criteria? ???
I kinda agree, even having the rule there, people will still abuse the system. But those that do abide the law will think twice about using visual aids.
KRD also sums up everything nicely.
And it comes down to the different personalities as Cueshark pointed out. The majority of people will not use visual aids or will not notch. Thats enough to keep me playing..
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I wish there were more votes, but most people seem to think markings should be illegal; not just 'lame', but illegal. And some who voted yes just did so because it's unenforceable, but might still follow it if it's a rule.
There hasn't really been a good argument for allowing this stuff other than unenforceability, but once again, no one seems to be arguing that due to that, we should allow macros. We just need a short sentence in the rules:
*No using any kind of external aids while playing (for example, using a ruler to help you aim).
That covers pretty much all the crap we've been talking about, kami rulers, markings... audio CDs you recorded of yourself listing BnG distances. As afraid as some people are that this will give noobs evil ideas (although hardly anyone fully reads the rules), a lot of them will surely take it to heart and not even think about 'clever' ways to aim, knowing they're illegal.
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WORMSCON IS COMING!!!
Colon just sent me my plane tickets in the mail the other day. I'm excited!
lmao!
I'm glad one person still here that actually remembers! +1 chicken
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I voted yes simply because their are markings nonetheless. (mine says Samsung all over the lower middle).
It's like forbidding people to remap their keys because they have a bad keyboard / keylock. Might sound exaggerated but if someone wants to legally use markings he/she will just get a monitor that is old, some even have important notes attached to the monitor, same thing as a visual aid by that definition. And since there is no rule against any form of hardware it's pretty obvious the rule is unremarkable.
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I voted yes simply because their are markings nonetheless. (mine says Samsung all over the lower middle).
It's like forbidding people to remap their keys because they have a bad keyboard / keylock. Might sound exaggerated but if someone wants to legally use markings he/she will just get a monitor that is old, some even have important notes attached to the monitor, same thing as a visual aid by that definition. And since there is no rule against any form of hardware it's pretty obvious the rule is unremarkable.
Pretty much every monitor has buttons or a logo near the middle, using those are perfectly fine. I really don't think there are any monitors in existence that come with grids on them or anything too excessive. Just look at the google image search for computer monitors.
Of course, it's possible for such a monitor to exist. But I think the community would choose to disallow it at that point, as they should, since it takes away a fair bit of skill. This is similar to the subject of padding your spacebar, except in that case, some people might already start with sensitive kbs; with monitors, there's no way any wormer has started with a gridded one.
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So what's the difference in measuring shots with letters / signs of your monitor instead of ones you made yourself? The result is the same, a visual aid. Your logic fails to me.
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I agree with Anu there. :o
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So what's the difference in measuring shots with letters / signs of your monitor instead of ones you made yourself? The result is the same, a visual aid. Your logic fails to me.
Because it's a natural limit where everyone is basically on equal ground, since there are no particularly special monitors out there. And because buttons/logos aren't markings that are tailor-made for WA, so the advantage you get is only so high.
But yeah, we could ask that people who use those existing markings cover them up or simply avoid using them. I mean, that would make more sense than essentially requiring that everyone have a marking system pasted onto the bottom of their monitor. Yeah why not, let's say buttons and logos are visual aids too.
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What about "stealing" angles? I mean when I watch my oppenent's angle/power I can copycat it and modify if necessary. I think a player should look at his screen only when it is his turn, otherwise he can use another players' angles as "visual aids". Also first 5 seconds of a turn a player must randomly push up/down arrows with closed eyes. That's will be fair enough.
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Ghost ne1 ?
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What about "stealing" angles? I mean when I watch my oppenent's angle/power I can copycat it and modify if necessary. I think a player should look at his screen only when it is his turn, otherwise he can use another players' angles as "visual aids". Also first 5 seconds of a turn a player must randomly push up/down arrows with closed eyes. That's will be fair enough.
That isn't all that easy to do man, but if it helps you a lot, might as well keep doing it. With notching though, there's not much point in trying to copy an angle, it's faster to just know it.
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What about "stealing" angles? I mean when I watch my oppenent's angle/power I can copycat it and modify if necessary. I think a player should look at his screen only when it is his turn, otherwise he can use another players' angles as "visual aids". Also first 5 seconds of a turn a player must randomly push up/down arrows with closed eyes. That's will be fair enough.
Now that you mention it, if you master counting the weapon movement fast enough you can at least get a very good idea where the shot lands if your opponent hits you. I think this thread exploits more than it helps. xD
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I think this thread exploits more than it helps. xD
^^'
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What about terrain patterns or map objects as a visual aid? I.e. U know that U need to move your aim just a tiny bit to the i.e. strawberry object on a fruit map to hit the perfect hit.. Are U kindly gonna ask ppl not to do that too? ;x It's tricky..
Anyway, I understand what U wanna Mab, I've had similar situation few years ago when I wanted to add "no-notching" rule in bng here... I knew that it was complicated and that someone can hardly prove if someone was notching or not, and that it would bring too much bitching if anyone wanted to judge that even, but I still just wanted that rule to be stated. Just as a criteria.. as a standard..
It's the same with this visual aid thing, U can add the rule, but that's all U can do, ppl who use papers, monitor buttons, CD cases, self-made aids or w/e will still use it.. Because they can. Because no one sees them..
And btw, votes on poll are on your side, so just add the rule and stop giving away new ideas to youngsters how to cheat! ;x
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someone can hardly prove if someone was notching or not
Just watch, it's very easy to see.
But I noticed many people didn't know what notching is.
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What about terrain patterns or map objects as a visual aid? I.e. U know that U need to move your aim just a tiny bit to the i.e. strawberry object on a fruit map to hit the perfect hit.. Are U kindly gonna ask ppl not to do that too? ;x It's tricky..
Anyway, I understand what U wanna Mab, I've had similar situation few years ago when I wanted to add "no-notching" rule in bng here... I knew that it was complicated and that someone can hardly prove if someone was notching or not, and that it would bring too much bitching if anyone wanted to judge that even, but I still just wanted that rule to be stated. Just as a criteria.. as a standard..
It's the same with this visual aid thing, U can add the rule, but that's all U can do, ppl who use papers, monitor buttons, CD cases, self-made aids or w/e will still use it.. Because they can. Because no one sees them..
And btw, votes on poll are on your side, so just add the rule and stop giving away new ideas to youngsters how to cheat! ;x
No, not everyone would continue to use that stuff. But yeah, things like notching and measuring via objects in the game, those aren't even preventable in a live setting, they're perfectly okay. The only 'aid' I would say is okay is using your hands to judge distances/remember angles.
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I'll be adding this rule (just something visual aids) just for those who are looking to play as fair as possible. Not as something we can catch people with it since it's impossible.
I'll be monitoring this thread instead someone comes with a good reason not to.
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And btw, votes on poll are on your side, so just add the rule and stop giving away new ideas to youngsters how to cheat! ;x
+1 imo this topic probably did more damage then it helped
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And btw, votes on poll are on your side, so just add the rule and stop giving away new ideas to youngsters how to cheat! ;x
+1 imo this topic probably did more damage then it helped
yep, I think this thread is a waste of time, since you can't prevent it anyway, so let it go. If the buddy does that, he is responsible for what he does, for his monitor, etc. No need to discuss this any further.
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Considering the number of people who voted, I don't think this thread will reach that many people's eyes. And it's definitely important enough to talk about, since there was plenty of disagreement on the subject, and it impacts the game.
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Considering the number of people who voted, I don't think this thread will reach that many people's eyes. And it's definitely important enough to talk about, since there was plenty of disagreement on the subject, and it impacts the game.
you may disagree as much as you want. But cheaters will cheat. And you can't do anything about this. This is life.
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Disapprobation is at least a mild deterrent StepS. However the goal here was to define what qualifies as cheating, for the honest players.