The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon

As you know, the maintainers set a deadline of the end of the year to release v.3.8. Of course it could have been sooner if the maintainers thought it was ready. Obviously they don't think it's ready, but they will release it anyway, unfinished, December 31st. (Plus however long T17's process takes.)

I'm creating this poll so that they can receive some input from the community before they makes this decision.

I will be voting "no" and here is my explanation for why I will be voting this way:

Deadcode has reasons for why v3.8 hasn't been released yet. To throw these reasons away in order to comply with some arbitrary deadline will hurt Worms Armageddon according to Deadcode's own logic. Here are his reasons:

Quote from: Deadcode on October 10, 2017, 03:42 AM

Quote from: skunk3 on October 10, 2017, 12:17 AMif "almost everyone" agrees that it should have been released long ago (and therefore, presumably finished) then why hasn't it been released yet?

I'm sorry, I can't be specific. Basically, I feel it would hurt the long-term future of the game to release it at this point, with certain features unfinished. But whether or not I manage to finish these things, you will be getting a release by the end of the year.

After releasing 3.8, I want to go back to a much more frequent release schedule, like it used to be before 3.6.28.0.

Again, this argument doesn't follow. It'd be like Elon Musk saying he can't release the new Tesla because he believes people will die due to mechanical issues they still need to work on, but he will release it anyway on [Arbitrary Date Goes Here], even if these issues are not worked out.

People's lives should take precedence!

In the same way, if Deadcode believes W:A will be hurt by releasing 3.8 unfinished, then why release it anyway? (And if it will not be hurt, why wasn't it released sooner?)

I think it should be released as soon as the maintainers are confident W:A will not be hurt by the release; no sooner or later, and not by some arbitrary deadline.

We've already waited this long; if I am to choose between hurting the game I love and getting a new update now vs. waiting longer and giving this game the best chance at success, I will choose the latter.

We might be able to make a more informed decision if we knew the specifics, but since that's not possible, I, for one, trust Deadcode and his reasoning above, as he knows the situation.

It seems like the maintainers feel like the community is forcing them to keep a promise they made. I don't think we would want that if if means hurting the game in the long run, but with this poll we can find out.

Aren't that's what most of game company doing these days ? Releasing unfinished garbage fire ?

I agree with GeneralItchy, let at least one game be different  :D

I found out by accident that the next version is coming soon. I assumed to wait another few years for an update so I am happy with everything that is closer than that.

Too many fresh members make threads and seem more interested in game and incoming update than any of old TUS thugs. But then again, why would anyone make aliases and talk about that?

Quite intriguing.

Just release it as a beta update. You can create a public beta branch through Steam. Link for those that want to know more. (https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/application/branches)

another shitstorm inbound

There is quite simply no reason why this game should be still getting updates 17+ years after release.

Suspend your imminent need for 3.8 and let deadcode & cybershadow do as they will, they are a boon to this community, more than we deserve, quite frankly.

Don't poke the bear

No, there is nothing essential that needs fixing right now.

it's simple, ofc not... why release something that isn't finished o_O

Voted it should be released. Not that I think game needs any major updates as it is, but the fact that most of competitive scene left few months ago without wish to return is kinda frightening.

That 3.8 unfinished update won't bring anything bad to W:A, but it could bring at least some of the forgotten players to come back.. Maybe 1 game, maybe 1 week, maybe 1 month, not important. Important thing is to get that ppl back before the point of no return...

And if you tell someone he'll need to wait another few months/years for next update, I'm afraid that will be the end.

Maybe it's completely wrong way of thinking, but that's how I feel.

nah sens i understand ur point

*looks at poll results*

Well, it's settled. Update delayed until December 31, 2022. Pack it up, boys! I'm sure all 7 people still playing W:A by then will find the wait worthwhile.

Quotethe maintainers are confident W:A will not be hurt by the release

No. The entire idea that an "unfinished" release of a W:A update will "hurt" the game or community and is worth delaying the update indefinitely is Deadcode's and Deadcode's alone. Nobody else (who knows what this is exactly about) shares that opinion.

There is a reason why I practically stopped working on the game itself a long time ago.

Quote from: CyberShadow on December 30, 2017, 03:41 PM
*looks at poll results*

Well, it's settled. Update delayed until December 31, 2022. Pack it up, boys! I'm sure all 7 people still playing W:A by then will find the wait worthwhile.

Quotethe maintainers are confident W:A will not be hurt by the release

No. The entire idea that an "unfinished" release of a W:A update will "hurt" the game or community and is worth delaying the update indefinitely is Deadcode's and Deadcode's alone. Nobody else (who knows what this is exactly about) shares that opinion.

There is a reason why I practically stopped working on the game itself a long time ago.

I had a feeling it might be something like that. Will you continue working on the game when 3.8 is released? If so, I change my mind, unless Deadcode wants to come clean for why he thinks it will hurt the game to release now, since no one seems to know or understand why he doesn't want to share why.

at least fix the lag on WormNET plz

If something is buggy due to not being properly tested, yes, I can see the community leaving or being split between versions, but just make sure it's not buggy, eh?

I recommend you ask Team17 to release 3.8 first as a beta branch, as others have suggested in this thread.

Quote from: miketh2005 on December 31, 2017, 10:48 AM
If something is buggy due to not being properly tested, yes, I can see the community leaving or being split between versions, but just make sure it's not buggy, eh?

I recommend you ask Team17 to release 3.8 first as a beta branch, as others have suggested in this thread.

beta branch  :D

I see no reason to not release it. Many people have more than one version of W:A installed already, so it's not like it would be a huge issue. Having more people playing the new version would mean that more people are finding and addressing bugs and other issues. It would be beneficial to everyone to release 3.8 A.S.A.P..

While I do think that W:A is fine the way it is now, I can certainly think of tons of ways by which it can be improved. If I had an ounce of programming/coding skills, I would have tried to implement all kinds of things years ago.

That said, the game feels really inactive and lonely these days. I can't remember the last time I saw some people playing a clanner, or someone even spamming AG for a 1v1 ranked match. I'm just glad that W:A still gets a few new players here and there because I'll probably be playing this game until I'm in the grave. (With breaks, ofc)

There are some things I do not get about 3.8:

What are these 3.8 features people are eagerly waiting for? I cannot see any game breaking bug, the game is fine; is the game really worth patches at this point?

I mean, look at people on wormnet. Are they leaving because they are missing a feature? Are they interested in the incoming updates? Do you think the new updates will bring activity? In my opinion, that won't happen. I myself left because I have other things to do, but from experience (I can tell you, I spent a lot of time almost daily teaching people how to host, how to get their stuff going), the game isn't really attractive anymore. People's mindsets have changed, there are new games, more addicting; on top of that, this game gives people a harsh introduction. People expect to jump into a game, play a short tutorial then boooooom, go to multiplayer, grind and feel good about owning some other people in their rank. This is not as easy in Worms; you can go around and find specialists or people asking for rules. And I really doubt 3.8 will change anything of that, or will give the game any of its old popularity.

The same thing applies for leagues: even from my point of view... I don't know how many years I got playing this game, but I used to see Dibz and said damn, how would I beat this guy in a rope scheme if I ever played league? Now think about it from the new people's point. I would instantly give up. This game requires dedication to some extent, and it is a long term dedication.

Like I read somewhere, there are more important problems with wormnet (like lag itself, I haven't checked it myself but I heard there was some sort of lag going on during the 00 GMT evenings). This game is almost as old as I am, and there's no reason you guys should be itching Deadcode or anyone about updates. Apparently, you guys would be better if neither Deadcode or CS gave you any release date, so you wouldn't be coming up with these.

The patch, either if it got released today or in 10 years, won't affect the community. The community that plays WA and holds the boat floating is always the same. There have been some constant new players joining up lately (Xankriegor, to mention one, Sensei... I don't know), but I am sure these people would remain constant even if the 3.8 idea didn't even exist, even though they surely are really grateful.

While I played, I didn't expect any updates. I liked the game because it was fun, it was a place where I could have a nice time, and to be fair I probably missed a lot of features, but patches never really were an angular stone in it. In my opinion, they should just release it once it's finished.

Quote from: Gabriel on January 02, 2018, 08:14 AMWhat are these 3.8 features people are eagerly waiting for? I cannot see any game breaking bug, the game is fine; is the game really worth patches at this point?

I want to see continued updates for a sense of continuation. Updates mean a game hasn't been abandoned. An update is a sign of life.

Quote from: skunk3 on January 02, 2018, 07:36 AM
I see no reason to not release it. Many people have more than one version of W:A installed already, so it's not like it would be a huge issue. Having more people playing the new version would mean that more people are finding and addressing bugs and other issues. It would be beneficial to everyone to release 3.8 A.S.A.P..

While I do think that W:A is fine the way it is now, I can certainly think of tons of ways by which it can be improved. If I had an ounce of programming/coding skills, I would have tried to implement all kinds of things years ago.

That said, the game feels really inactive and lonely these days. I can't remember the last time I saw some people playing a clanner, or someone even spamming AG for a 1v1 ranked match. I'm just glad that W:A still gets a few new players here and there because I'll probably be playing this game until I'm in the grave. (With breaks, ofc)

+1

Devs should work on resuming the dropped game, instead of wasting time giving more make-up to features that are 100% bug proof.

Dont put the solving of your problems from your shoulders on the someone elses'  :D

Quote from: Gabriel on January 02, 2018, 08:14 AM
there are new games, more addicting

Blasphemy.

They should release it, as Worms Armageddon is slowly losing players. Then Again, Worms Armageddon 4.0 is probably using up all that valuable time, and that time could've been spent on the short-term 3.8.

Quote from: Ytrojan on January 02, 2018, 05:24 PM
They should release it, as Worms Armageddon is slowly losing players. Then Again, Worms Armageddon 4.0 is probably using up all that valuable time, and that time could've been spent on the short-term 3.8.

Last we asked, they said 4.0 hasn't even begun development.

-

What is it then, are we getting update in January or it's postponed?

Quote from: Sensei on January 03, 2018, 08:23 PM
What is it then, are we getting update in January or it's postponed?

it is posponed on 31 december 2035 I heard

(https://i.imgflip.com/222y0x.jpg)

I can only assume that Deadcode has given the 3.8 patch to Team17 and they have to verify some shit or whatever and make sure it's all good before "officially" releasing it. Not that Team17 has had anything to do with W:A in many years aside from re-releasing it on Steam to make a little money.

I do care about updates and patches and whatnot. W:A is my favorite game of all time and the Worms franchise is my favorite game franchise of all time. Nothing else really even comes close except maybe The Elder Scrolls, but that's a distant second. I know that this game is really old at this point and expecting updates is foolish, but that doesn't change the fact that I'd like to see them regardless. Ideally I would like to see continuous updates forever but Team17 certainly isn't going to invest any effort into that (they barely give a shit about their new games) and clearly CyberShadow hasn't done much of anything in years because of whatever reason(s). [edit: this is not true](Assuming he fundamentally disagrees with DC on many issues and has basically stopped trying.)

That basically leaves things up to Deadcode and perhaps a handful of other community members to improve the game, and they aren't getting paid for it and might not actually have the knowledge and skill to pull off what they would like to do. I gotta say that I'm not very optimistic about W:A's future these days. I generally don't have a problem finding a game to play when I log on, but finding older and/or skilled players can be really tough a lot of the time. What prompted so many people to quit at roughly the same time?

I know that I am going off-topic but eh, whatever. Keeping W:A fresh and active is really important to me because nothing else out there (in terms of games) is as addictive and fun. What's around today that can rival W:A in terms of replay value? I haven't been able to find anything even close. I might get burned out from time to time from playing and want to take short breaks, but I couldn't ever see myself retiring for good. At this point W:A has kinda become a part of my life in a sense. I've been playing it for basically half of my life.

I don't think that releasing 3.8 is really going to bring in any new people, and as far as enticing older players to become active again, who knows? That completely depends on what 3.8 entails in terms of updates and whether or not that person quit playing because of non-Worms-related issues.

I just wish that everyone would become active again and never stop playing. Furthermore, I see no reason to NOT release 3.8, and I also see no reason to be so quiet about what it entails. This game community is extremely small and loyal and lording information over others just seems pointless. I could understand keeping things quiet when it comes to a newer title, but FFS this game is almost old enough to vote. At this point, everything should be public knowledge - everything.

Quote from: skunk3 on January 03, 2018, 09:59 PMCyberShadow hasn't done much of anything in years because of whatever reason(s). (Assuming he fundamentally disagrees with DC on many issues and has basically stopped trying.)

That's not true at all. HostingBuddy and WormNAT have been the largest forces keeping Wormnet alive through the past several years. Cybershadow has been active making continual improvements to HB - adding TUS map support, improved map info, and various small new features. He also hosts these services at his own time and expense, and does not solicit donations. Also don't forget he made Wormkit - where would we be without that?

Trying not to sound like a douche here, but it would be better to thank them for their good intentions and still being around, instead of pointing blame or trivializing their efforts. None of us knows what goes on behind the scenes, and together they have made the game what it is today. I was unaware there was some level of disagreement between them and it's somewhat upsetting .. I really hope they can come to terms and continue working together.

It would be nice to know from Deadcode though if the patch should be expected any time soon (Q1 2018), or if there is some bigger problem that will take some indefinite extended period of time.

Quote from: j0e on January 03, 2018, 10:16 PM

Quote from: skunk3 on January 03, 2018, 09:59 PMCyberShadow hasn't done much of anything in years because of whatever reason(s). (Assuming he fundamentally disagrees with DC on many issues and has basically stopped trying.)

This is not true at all. HostingBuddy and WormNAT have been the largest forces keeping Wormnet alive through the past several years. Cybershadow has been active making continual improvements to HB - adding TUS map support, improved map info, and various small new features. He also hosts these services at his own time and expense, and does not solicit donations. Also don't forget he made Wormkit - where would we be without that?

Trying not to sound like a douche here, but it would be better to thank them for their good intentions and still being around, instead of pointing blame or trivializing their efforts. None of us knows what goes on behind the scenes, and together they have made the game what it is today. I was unaware there was some level of disagreement between them and it's somewhat upsetting .. I really hope they can come to terms and continue working together.

I was only going off of what CyberShadow said previously. Most of the stuff you mentioned is several years old by this point. It's not that I am not grateful for it (that couldn't be further from the truth) it's just that we haven't seen much new. I wasn't in any way demeaning CS's efforts or continued support.

Also, if there's stuff he's been doing more recently that I simply do not know about, that is very possible.

Quote from: skunk3 on January 03, 2018, 10:20 PM

Quote from: j0e on January 03, 2018, 10:16 PM

Quote from: skunk3 on January 03, 2018, 09:59 PMCyberShadow hasn't done much of anything in years because of whatever reason(s). (Assuming he fundamentally disagrees with DC on many issues and has basically stopped trying.)

This is not true at all. HostingBuddy and WormNAT have been the largest forces keeping Wormnet alive through the past several years. Cybershadow has been active making continual improvements to HB - adding TUS map support, improved map info, and various small new features. He also hosts these services at his own time and expense, and does not solicit donations. Also don't forget he made Wormkit - where would we be without that?

Trying not to sound like a douche here, but it would be better to thank them for their good intentions and still being around, instead of pointing blame or trivializing their efforts. None of us knows what goes on behind the scenes, and together they have made the game what it is today. I was unaware there was some level of disagreement between them and it's somewhat upsetting .. I really hope they can come to terms and continue working together.

I was only going off of what CyberShadow said previously. Most of the stuff you mentioned is several years old by this point. It's not that I am not grateful for it (that couldn't be further from the truth) it's just that we haven't seen much new. I wasn't in any way demeaning CS's efforts or continued support.

Cybershadow said he hasn't been working on the game itself, not that he has been doing nothing. He has made small updates to HB fairly recently (within the past year), and he had to do the whole server update/change when his host shit the bed. That didn't seem like an easy process, even though it took longer than we would have liked.

Yeah, I guess I misinterpreted what he meant by that. I definitely appreciate his efforts in a big way. I'm not as informed as some other people when it comes to who is doing what, or what is being done regarding W:A since I rarely check TUS.

Quote from: miketh2005 on December 30, 2017, 06:02 PMWill you continue working on the game when 3.8 is released?

Yes, of course.

It is really demotivating to implement a feature or even bugfix, then see it waste away for years in a row in secret alpha builds that only a few people see.

We are in agreement, though, that we need to get back to releasing updates frequently. Hopefully this can become reality instead of another "when it's done" deadlock :)

Quote from: TheMadCharles on December 31, 2017, 10:22 AMat least fix the lag on WormNET plz

Could you please be more specific?

Quote from: miketh2005 on December 31, 2017, 10:48 AMIf something is buggy due to not being properly tested, yes, I can see the community leaving or being split between versions, but just make sure it's not buggy, eh?

Bugs (potential or known) are not what is holding the release back.

Quote from: miketh2005 on December 31, 2017, 10:48 AMI recommend you

I recommend to not offer unsolicited advice, especially when you have access to less information on the subject than the party you're offering it to :)

Quote from: Gabriel on January 02, 2018, 08:14 AMWhat are these 3.8 features people are eagerly waiting for?

Check the support forums (esp. on Steam). Almost every thread is an actionable thing that could be fixed or improved. The worst part, though, is that many of them have been fixed years ago, just waiting to be released.

Quote from: Mega`Adnan on January 02, 2018, 01:53 PMDevs should work on resuming the dropped game,

Yeah, however it turns out it's a really hard problem.

Quote from: Ytrojan on January 02, 2018, 05:24 PMThen Again, Worms Armageddon 4.0 is probably using up all that valuable time, and that time could've been spent on the short-term 3.8.

Right now nobody is working on 4.0 stuff.

Quote from: Sensei on January 03, 2018, 08:23 PMWhat is it then, are we getting update in January or it's postponed?

We've contacted Team17, and are using the time to continue working on the game.

Quote from: skunk3 on January 03, 2018, 10:24 PMAlso, if there's stuff he's been doing more recently that I simply do not know about, that is very possible.

Lately, the division of labour has been mostly as follows:

• Deadcode works on the game itself (code that ends up in WA.exe)
• I work on everything else, i.e.:
  
  
  
  • Maintaining WormNET services, i.e. WormNAT2, HostingBuddy, SheriffBot
  • Maintaining the servers the above run on
  • WormNET moderation
  • Development tools (building, releasing, localization, documentation)
  • Development infrastructure (bug tracking, communication, source code repository)
  • Cheat countermeasures
  • Communication with Team17
  • Communication with the community, apparently
  • Setting arbitrary deadlines :)
  Of course, any of the things above are smaller than working the game itself. I might be wrong, but by my very rough estimate, the total amount of time we spend on W:A-related tasks lately ends up about the same.
  

This division occurred mainly by us doing the things we're better at. Deadcode has been working on the game's code since about 2002, and knows it inside and out. My experience is less focused and more widespread, which is why my time is better spent on all the support tooling.

Currently I'm working on an internal tool that will make it much easier for us to document and localize the changelog, at Deadcode's suggestion. This tool has an open-source component, you can follow its development here: https://github.com/CyberShadow/rtf2any/commits/master

Quote from: CyberShadow on January 04, 2018, 07:41 PM

• Communication with the community, apparently

I lol'd, but then I felt bad. :'(

Nice breakdown of your tasks in recent times and the reason behind it, btw. That's the sort of thing I think the more technically inclined people in any game's community love to read about!

@CyberShadow - So what is the reason why these improvements and bug fixes are not being released? I'd find that demotivational as well. Is it Team17's decision? Deadcode's? Knowing that there's numerous fixes and improvements that can be added to the game yet they aren't for some mysterious reason is irksome. There's absolutely no point in not rolling out updates as soon as they are available unless I'm missing something?

I'd love to hear an explanation for this because I can't think of any good reason why these updates/fixes shouldn't be released the moment they are ready. Who do you talk with at Team17 and what is the nature of your communication? How often do you communicate? (Just curious!)




Totally unrelated - does anyone know who/what "DataLate'irssi" is? That name is *always* in #AG and it clearly isn't a player because they don't join or host games, or communicate.

Why the entitlement?

Quote from: skunk3 on January 06, 2018, 07:32 AM
Totally unrelated - does anyone know who/what "DataLate'irssi" is? That name is *always* in #AG and it clearly isn't a player because they don't join or host games, or communicate.

Irssi is an IRC client. I would say they probably logged in from a server somewhere and never bothered to end the session.

Quote from: skunk3 on January 06, 2018, 07:32 AMSo what is the reason why these improvements and bug fixes are not being released?

I think the first page of this thread is as close to an answer as you'll probably get for now.

Quote from: skunk3 on January 06, 2018, 07:32 AMWho do you talk with at Team17 and what is the nature of your communication? How often do you communicate? (Just curious!)

Sorry, I don't know to which extent I can discuss our communication with Team17.

We should release a minor bugfix release for the 3.7 line ([/size]3.7.3.1), to prevent people from quitting because WA doesn't work. Mostly compatibility fixes, with some bug fixes.

Quote from: Ryan on January 06, 2018, 09:13 AM
Why the entitlement?

It's not entitlement per se... I just care. I've been playing W:A since launch and I still play it pretty much daily, and I find it annoying that according to everything I've heard, 3.8 has basically been finished for quite some time yet for some mysterious reason it hasn't been released and only a handful of testers have had the chance to see it. If there's an update out there that can possibly pull people out of retirement and entice them to actually play W:A again on a regular basis, I want to see it released.

Thanks for the info CS

Hehe there is no update and there never will be. It seems impossible to implement dc continue functions otherwise they wouldve implemented the shit decades ago. Nothing will come ever. But its no prob Worms is still working.

Hopefully the game is getting updated today because nobody can host anything on WormNET right now. HB is down and even people who have their ports forwarded can't host. It's a chatroom for now lol.

[edit] Some hosting is back now.

HB was down some days ago too, but only for half an hour.

Any news? CS, DC?
Is 3.8 happening anytime soon or it's postponed to indefinite date?

My guess is Team17 can't be contacted

Oh, there's a way to contact them.

Let's all buy wmd at same time and refund it immediately.
That should send them a msg..

here is thier discord:
https://discord.gg/ZTt7MAr

Quote from: Sensei on February 17, 2018, 11:24 PM
Oh, there's a way to contact them.

Let's all buy wmd at same time and refund it immediately.
That should send them a msg..

Ooo I like this idea a lot  ;D

Can we do it many times a day?  ;D

Can we get a lock on this thread, please?

Quote from: CyberShadow on January 04, 2018, 07:41 PM

Quote from: miketh2005 on December 30, 2017, 06:02 PMWill you continue working on the game when 3.8 is released?

Yes, of course.

It is really demotivating to implement a feature or even bugfix, then see it waste away for years in a row in secret alpha builds that only a few people see.

We are in agreement, though, that we need to get back to releasing updates frequently. Hopefully this can become reality instead of another "when it's done" deadlock :)

Quote from: TheMadCharles on December 31, 2017, 10:22 AMat least fix the lag on WormNET plz

Could you please be more specific?

Quote from: miketh2005 on December 31, 2017, 10:48 AMIf something is buggy due to not being properly tested, yes, I can see the community leaving or being split between versions, but just make sure it's not buggy, eh?

Bugs (potential or known) are not what is holding the release back.

Quote from: miketh2005 on December 31, 2017, 10:48 AMI recommend you

I recommend to not offer unsolicited advice, especially when you have access to less information on the subject than the party you're offering it to :)

Quote from: Gabriel on January 02, 2018, 08:14 AMWhat are these 3.8 features people are eagerly waiting for?

Check the support forums (esp. on Steam). Almost every thread is an actionable thing that could be fixed or improved. The worst part, though, is that many of them have been fixed years ago, just waiting to be released.

Quote from: Mega`Adnan on January 02, 2018, 01:53 PMDevs should work on resuming the dropped game,

Yeah, however it turns out it's a really hard problem.

Quote from: Ytrojan on January 02, 2018, 05:24 PMThen Again, Worms Armageddon 4.0 is probably using up all that valuable time, and that time could've been spent on the short-term 3.8.

Right now nobody is working on 4.0 stuff.

Quote from: Sensei on January 03, 2018, 08:23 PMWhat is it then, are we getting update in January or it's postponed?

We've contacted Team17, and are using the time to continue working on the game.

Quote from: skunk3 on January 03, 2018, 10:24 PMAlso, if there's stuff he's been doing more recently that I simply do not know about, that is very possible.

Lately, the division of labour has been mostly as follows:

• Deadcode works on the game itself (code that ends up in WA.exe)
• I work on everything else, i.e.:
  
  
  
  • Maintaining WormNET services, i.e. WormNAT2, HostingBuddy, SheriffBot
  • Maintaining the servers the above run on
  • WormNET moderation
  • Development tools (building, releasing, localization, documentation)
  • Development infrastructure (bug tracking, communication, source code repository)
  • Cheat countermeasures
  • Communication with Team17
  • Communication with the community, apparently
  • Setting arbitrary deadlines :)
  Of course, any of the things above are smaller than working the game itself. I might be wrong, but by my very rough estimate, the total amount of time we spend on W:A-related tasks lately ends up about the same.
  

This division occurred mainly by us doing the things we're better at. Deadcode has been working on the game's code since about 2002, and knows it inside and out. My experience is less focused and more widespread, which is why my time is better spent on all the support tooling.

Currently I'm working on an internal tool that will make it much easier for us to document and localize the changelog, at Deadcode's suggestion. This tool has an open-source component, you can follow its development here: https://github.com/CyberShadow/rtf2any/commits/master

Will be in W:A 40 full Unicode support?

Lets worry about 3.8 before we start talking about 4.0.

Any news? Team17 is still dragging their feet approving the update?

Devs provided us with bit of excitement and then gone silent for months.
Feels like DayZ :D

Haha, I'm so curious about this update. It's been five years since the last one, and recently I started playing with some old friends. Wish the game didn't appear on Steam, cos T17 seems to take their time reviewing the update or whatever...

Quote from: Crowe on March 18, 2018, 08:31 PM
Haha, I'm so curious about this update. It's been five years since the last one, and recently I started playing with some old friends. Wish the game didn't appear on Steam, cos T17 seems to take their time reviewing the update or whatever...

It's a great game without the update. There's tons of features and nothing is broken, except sometimes it needs some tweaking to work on Windows 10. No reason not to list it on Steam.

@CyberShadow - Is there any chance of unofficially releasing the update early for non-Steam users? I assume it's backwards compatible with the current version. You could label it as an alpha build and post it on worms2d.info along with a disclaimer. You guys said you want to do more frequent updates, and this would be a natural way to do it, as long as Team17 didn't file a lawsuit. With casual tiny "nightly" builds you won't feel pressure to include every last thing before releasing or seeking release approval, which I gather is a somewhat major obstacle. Is there a contractual requirement that the private alpha testing group has to be private?

Quote from: j0e on March 19, 2018, 02:57 AMThere's tons of features and nothing is broken, except sometimes it needs some tweaking to work on Windows 10.

Agree with you gameplay wise. Except realtime worms, there's nothing much left to add.
Tho these tweaks for win 10 are pain in the ass, not even minor problems. For example, my game won't load if not compatible with Win XP (which makes rope a bit strange than it was before).

Also, on 3.7.2.1. windowed module is causing vsync anomalies and framedrops. These things are about to get fixed in 3.8, if rumours are true.

Pretty big and meaningful update imo. Too bad everyone's gone.

QuotePretty big and meaningful update imo. Too bad everyone's gone.

There's lots of talented players left. Lots more will come back when the update is released.

Quote from: j0e on March 19, 2018, 05:20 PM
There's lots of talented players left. Lots more will come back when the update is released.

How do you actually know that? And what do you expect from this update other than some (obviously important but still) compatibility improvements and barely noticable bugfixes? I'm not saying this is all the patch has to offer but maybe you are painting way too much in your imagination. If (lots of) old players wanted to suddenly come back, they would be back; an update is cool and all but these people played that game in current and past state for years without complains then stopped playing because of personal reasons, lack of updates is the last thing that holds them off.

So what do you think this update will notably change in W:A or add to the game?  I'm curious.

Quote from: j0e on March 19, 2018, 02:57 AM

Quote from: Crowe on March 18, 2018, 08:31 PM
Haha, I'm so curious about this update. It's been five years since the last one, and recently I started playing with some old friends. Wish the game didn't appear on Steam, cos T17 seems to take their time reviewing the update or whatever...

It's a great game without the update. There's tons of features and nothing is broken, except sometimes it needs some tweaking to work on Windows 10. No reason not to list it on Steam.

Yeah, indeed the game is great as it is right now, but I'm saying that before Steam, updates got released immediately. And now they have to go through T17, until approval :/

I don't see how anyone who still plays the game would NOT want the update to come out, even if unfinished. It would be interesting and also greatly speed up bug reporting and playtesting. It would also likely bring in a lot of older players. Also, since there's basically no clan/league scene at all at the moment it doesn't really matter too much if there's some hiccups here and there. I don't see a down side to releasing it.

Yeah, the game is great now but it can always be improved; and if 3.8 is an improvement, I want to play it.

Quote from: skunk3 on March 22, 2018, 10:06 PM
I don't see how anyone who still plays the game would NOT want the update to come out, even if unfinished.

Not sharing too many similar opinions as Skunk3, but 100% agree with this sentence.

I fear that Team17 might actually be doing this as an indirect method of killing the game, so that they can kill the servers.






Either that, or Team17's approval staff are lazy.

Any news guys? The lack of info is killing me.

Probably talking to ghosts but who cares.

Any chance 3.8 (if it ever comes out) could implement WormNAT2 and pre-checked "load wormkit modules" box?
Every now and then there's new player(s) trying to figure out why host button not functioning properly.

Just now there was situation in #ag where 2 Polish guys tried host/join over and over again.
It's pretty demotivating for newcomers when they need to "hack" the game or even router just to play few funners with friends.

This can be easily avoided!(?)

Quote from: Sensei on May 03, 2018, 09:22 PM
Probably talking to ghosts but who cares.

Any chance 3.8 (if it ever comes out) could implement WormNAT2 and pre-checked "load wormkit modules" box?
Every now and then there's new player(s) trying to figure out why host button not functioning properly.

Just now there was situation in #ag where 2 Polish guys tried host/join over and over again.
It's pretty demotivating for newcomers when they need to "hack" the game or even router just to play few funners with friends.

This can be easily avoided!(?)

Yeah, it's like a similar problem on another game. They are implementing a minigame into the permanent feature set, but they're taking too long.


Worms Armageddon is no different

Quote from: Sensei on May 03, 2018, 09:22 PMAny chance 3.8 (if it ever comes out) could implement WormNAT2 and pre-checked "load wormkit modules" box?
Every now and then there's new player(s) trying to figure out why host button not functioning properly.

This is a legal, economic, and technical problem at the same time. If the option is included officially with the game, you become responsible for making sure it always works. Because it becomes part of the product that people paid money for.

Now, as you know, our developers do not receive any money from Steam purchases. In an ideal world, part of this money would be spent on supporting the WormNAT2 proxy. That is how game dev companies provide hosting for the players. But there's no income here, and as you know, the server is prone to go offline every now and then.
Needless to say Team17 themselves are not likely to give a damn about this. Otherwise we could perhaps see something like Steamworks-driven networking, and relay servers support (which what WormNAT2 essentially is).

I hope this clears some things up for you.

Got any news about the update StepS / anyone?

Is it correct that the completed 3.8 update was submitted to Team17 for approval months ago? Or are we experiencing delays in development?

Quote from: StepS on May 12, 2018, 05:19 PM
I hope this clears some things up for you.

Yeah, thx for your answer. Found one thing funny in all of that:

Quote from: StepS on May 12, 2018, 05:19 PM
This is a legal, economic, and technical problem at the same time. If the option is included officially with the game, you become responsible for making sure it always works. Because it becomes part of the product that people paid money for.

Host button never works for ppl that paid money for this game.. And I don't see T17 sweating about it last 20 years :D
Don't see how would they be against CS & DC implement longterm fix for mentioned problem. But yeah, I get your point anyways.
Keep us informed from time to time m8, you surely know more about update than us peasants. Take care ;)

Quote from: j0e on May 12, 2018, 05:42 PM
Got any news about the update StepS / anyone?

Nothing I can share atm.

Quote from: Sensei on May 12, 2018, 09:45 PM
Host button never works for ppl that paid money for this game

Just because people keep coming to #Help to report hosting issues doesn't mean it "never" works. People only speak when something doesn't work. But I have seen lots of newcomers silently host successful games with their partners in WormNET channels. So what you're saying is untrue.

The built-in hosting system implies that the network configuration is correct. It is taken care of by the user. Whether hosting works or not, depends on the connection type of the player. The issue is that there's no disclaimer for this, and no explanation when a "connection is failed". That is what should be improved in my opinion.

WormNAT2, on the other hand, implies that your game will be hosted no matter what. It is taken care of by the developers. That is different.
In any case the option should not be "enabled by default", even if implemented. Because hosting directly, rather than wasting community-hosted bandwidth, is always preferred especially if the user's network setup already allows that from the start. You get lower latency with direct hosting as well (which is not a concern in a turn-based game, but still). Remember the "Greetings" message? The point still stands. Routing traffic requires resources.

Also, if you think nothing is done to resolve the problem, you're wrong. In 3.6.29.0, UPnP forwarding was added, which accounts for many successfully hosted games these days, even though it doesn't work with all routers, and some networks are private.
HostingBuddy constantly pings every game hosted on WormNET. If there's a game that can't be joined, it will message the player when he comes back with further details on how to fix the problem. But of course many people will ignore the message.

Just happened upon this:

https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-05-08-team17-confirms-230-million-flotation-plans (https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2018-05-08-team17-confirms-230-million-flotation-plans)

Basically, Team17 is preparing to sell stock, which should give them more capital, and therefore more hiring power, bigger budgets, and a chance to grow. I wonder if the update is being held back until after the smoke clears?

Any news?

Quote from: j0e on June 09, 2018, 04:14 PM
Any news?

Not on the Worms front, but Team17 is now officially on the stock market.

https://www.google.com/search?q=LON:TM17&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1280&bih=797 (https://www.google.com/search?q=LON:TM17&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1280&bih=797)

As a result, the company is now valued at £217 million, with their gross profit from the offering being £107.5 million. Founder/CEO Debbie Bestwick intends to cash in £50 million of her personal £100 million stake.

https://www.prolificnorth.co.uk/news/digital/2018/05/wakefields-team17-raises-%C2%A3217m-stock-market-float (https://www.prolificnorth.co.uk/news/digital/2018/05/wakefields-team17-raises-%C2%A3217m-stock-market-float)

I feel like someone from TUS should buy at least a tenth of these stocks. Perhaps fund DC/CS's work with them?

Quote from: The Extremist on June 10, 2018, 11:47 AM

Quote from: j0e on June 09, 2018, 04:14 PM
Any news?

Not on the Worms front, but Team17 is now officially on the stock market.

https://www.google.com/search?q=LON:TM17&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1280&bih=797 (https://www.google.com/search?q=LON:TM17&e=4112296&tbm=fin&biw=1280&bih=797)

As a result, the company is now valued at £217 million, with their gross profit from the offering being £107.5 million. Founder/CEO Debbie Bestwick intends to cash in £50 million of her personal £100 million stake.

https://www.prolificnorth.co.uk/news/digital/2018/05/wakefields-team17-raises-%C2%A3217m-stock-market-float (https://www.prolificnorth.co.uk/news/digital/2018/05/wakefields-team17-raises-%C2%A3217m-stock-market-float)

Seriously, I see 3.8's release increasing Team17's stock, so that should convince you if returning old-timers won't.

we havn't even explored all the possibilities our current update has to offer... yet everyone is so much in hurry to get the new update lol

Quote from: Husk on June 10, 2018, 10:20 PM
we havn't even explored all the possibilities our current update has to offer... yet everyone is so much in hurry to get the new update lol

There's always an option to keep the old update, like I do with 3.6.31, because of Project X, which should really be updated.


Maybe in 3.8, we could see a successor to PX, even if it's primitive.

Why would it increase their stock?

Quote from: XanKriegor on June 11, 2018, 04:39 AM
Why would it increase their stock?

because people will come back to play WA, which means buying it.

unless they are pirates. YARR ARR FIDDLEEE DEEE

Ah yes, i forgot that games are not  for free  :D :D :D

Quote from: Ytrojan on June 10, 2018, 10:16 PM
Seriously, I see 3.8's release increasing Team17's stock

Excuse me for a moment























(https://i.imgur.com/VJjGtxL.gif)

@Cybershadow and Deadcode - Would there be any legal (or other) issue in posting unofficial alpha builds on the worms2d.info site? The time Team 17 is taking to vet the update is not reasonable, especially since you've stated you wish to release updates more frequently. I think they feel threatened because W:A outshines all their new games, and wish it never existed. However threatened I can't imagine them taking you to court over a 20 year old game, even if you straight up leaked their source code. Both of you live far outside UK jurisdiction. What judge would take them seriously anyway?

The only reason I visit this site anymore is for news about the update. I think we have, out of respect, been overly shy in probing for news, and this has come across to you as a lack of interest. I care about this update (and this game) a lot and I'm sure tons of other players do too even if they don't speak English well enough to say so. You both should know how much I appreciate your devotion but I don't feel like rehashing all that again during this dry spell. It kills me that months go by and you don't say anything..

Quote from: TheWalrus on June 11, 2018, 07:01 PM

Quote from: Ytrojan on June 10, 2018, 10:16 PM
Seriously, I see 3.8's release increasing Team17's stock

Excuse me for a moment























(https://i.imgur.com/VJjGtxL.gif)

Innocent youth is glorious. xD

Quote from: j0e on July 09, 2018, 12:53 AM
@Cybershadow and Deadcode - Would there be any legal (or other) issue in posting unofficial alpha builds on the worms2d.info site? The time Team 17 is taking to vet the update is not reasonable, especially since you've stated you wish to release updates more frequently. I think they feel threatened because W:A outshines all their new games, and wish it never existed. However threatened I can't imagine them taking you to court over a 20 year old game, even if you straight up leaked their source code. Both of you live far outside UK jurisdiction. What judge would take them seriously anyway?

Sue them? Why and for what advantage? Tbh at this point, T17 dug themselves a grave

Also +1

6 years already and people still hurry up the patch developers of WA! Come on now, take a rest with Sonic Mania or Epic Battle Fantasy 3/4/5. Kupo delivers a new game for you to play and you ignore him (pretty much like you ignored me, I had the same story).

f@#! da police, release the update

At this point, the lack of updates is hurting the game more than a simple update could ever hope to do.

Any news?

whyisthisguynotontusyet.png

Quote from: TheMadCharles on August 21, 2018, 07:44 AM
[attachment=1]

Lol that is my post. Anyone else got any news?

fake news

Quote from: j0e on August 22, 2018, 12:02 AM

Quote from: TheMadCharles on August 21, 2018, 07:44 AM
[attachment=1]

Lol that is my post. Anyone else got any news?

hold on hold on
you were obn3g0n?

i played with a canadian guy named obn3g0n for years
didnt know it was you

Don't remember playing that much with you, but if I didn't tell you it's probably because I didn't feel like talking. That's the beauty of using aliases. I'm pretty antisocial and mainly just like playing the game.

"whyisthisguynotontusyet.png"
"why is this guy not on tus yet?"

welp, there's my answer lol

How about a new target release date of Dec 31 2018?

Quote from: j0e on September 23, 2018, 07:39 PM
How about a new target release date of Dec 31 2018?

Yes, it's been over half a decade since Worms Armageddon's latest version got released.


We could use Halloween as a minor update slot to put out some of the bug fixes

Steam updated Worms Armageddon to version 3.7.2.2

Changelog:

Quotev3.7.2.2 Update (2018.09.11)

Fixes
[CB] Ensure main window is brought to the foreground whenever the video display is opened and when being maximised. This fixes a compatibility issue on Windows 10 where the game would minimise on boot and could not be maximised.

what about modules?

Just to clarify some things:

• This 3.7.2.2 update was not developed by Deadcode/CyberShadow. The single change was made by Charles Blessing (same as when 3.6.31.2b was suddenly released back in September 2012). There was no cooperation between DC/CS and Team17 on this release.
  
• This is not the same 3.7.2.2 update as the one that DC/CS internally developed a while ago.
  
• This is not the 3.8.0 update. It doesn't include all of 3.8.0's fixes, new features and other changes.
  
• The 3.8.0 update is awaiting some changes before it can be submitted to Team17 for release. This should hopefully happen as soon as possible.

Will it work under Windows XP too?

Someone from Team17 actually did something?! This must be an April fools joke. Any progress is good though so I'm happy about this. Thanks for the update StepS.

Quote from: StepS on September 24, 2018, 03:39 PM
Just to clarify some things:

• This 3.7.2.2 update was not developed by Deadcode/CyberShadow. The single change was made by Charles Blessing (same as when 3.6.31.2b was suddenly released back in September 2012). There was no cooperation between DC/CS and Team17 on this release.
  
• This is not the same 3.7.2.2 update as the one that DC/CS internally developed a while ago.
  
• This is not the 3.8.0 update. It doesn't include all of 3.8.0's fixes, new features and other changes.
  
• The 3.8.0 update is awaiting some changes before it can be submitted to Team17 for release. This should hopefully happen as soon as possible.
  

Quote from: j0e on September 24, 2018, 10:21 PMAny progress is good though

you suuuuure about that?

Quote from: http://steamcommunity.com/app/217200/discussions/0/1732087825003583868/#c1732087825004638263Seems like it broke wkKawooshKick and wkRubberWorm

Quote from: StepS on September 24, 2018, 03:39 PMThe 3.8.0 update is awaiting some changes before it can be submitted to Team17 for release. This should hopefully happen as soon as possible.

So we've come from "no later than 2017, ready or not (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/worms-armageddon/crates-and-weapons-delay-25124/msg261962/#msg261962)" to some unspecified point in time that "should" "hopefully" happen "soon"? Got it, thanks for the clarification.

what about rubberworm and kawoosh kick? errors pop up

Quote from: Asbest on September 25, 2018, 03:44 PM
what about rubberworm and kawoosh kick? errors pop up

That's because both kawoosh kick and rubberworm modules are developed independently by other developers, and has nothing to do with Worms Armageddon's updates.
So all of the present module that are available now, are likely to be incompatible with WA, and will have to be updated to the current and future version of WA by their respective developers.

Hopefully 3.8 will be out soon enough so they don't all have to do it twice

Quote from: Kradie on September 25, 2018, 07:09 PM

Quote from: Asbest on September 25, 2018, 03:44 PM
what about rubberworm and kawoosh kick? errors pop up

That's because both kawoosh kick and rubberworm modules are developed independently by other developers, and has nothing to do with Worms Armageddon's updates.
So all of the present module that are available now, are likely to be incompatible with WA, and will have to be updated to the current and future version of WA by their respective developers.

Not just RubberWorm and KawooshKick its ALL modules that were in 3.7.2.1

Just curious - did this update fix any problems people were actually experiencing?

Quote from: j0e on September 28, 2018, 11:51 PM
Just curious - did this update fix any problems people were actually experiencing?

I'm still avoiding update but could let it and test.
Since one of Win10 updates almost year ago, been forced to play WA using compatibility with XP. Don't know anyone with same problem.
Also curious did they fixed it or 3.7.2.2. will be marked down as biggest failure in recent Team17 history.

Any progress / news / rumours?

Quote from: j0e on October 30, 2018, 05:25 PM
Any progress / news / rumours?

(https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/66909896/soon-tm.jpg)

Who needs the 3.7.2.2 patch, if it is such a minority TBH? It only enhances Win10 compatiablity with Worms Armageddon, but does nothing else, like PX ports or new mechanics.

Quote from: Shadow-The-Worm on November 03, 2018, 03:21 PM
Who needs the 3.7.2.2 patch, if it is such a minority TBH? It only enhances Win10 compatiablity with Worms Armageddon, but does nothing else, like PX ports or new mechanics.

3.8 is being made by different people. It will be better.

I have lost hope. I don't think 3.8 will ever be released.

Quote from: Stressfish on November 07, 2018, 08:02 PM
I have lost hope. I don't think 3.8 will ever be released.

I haven't, but it'll be a while. If this struggle keeps going, Half Life 3 will be announced well before Worms Armageddon 3.8 gets released

It can atleast fix soundbanks patch missmatch. WA v3.6 have soundbanks in data\user\speech, and v3.7 in user\speech. If player use any soundbank which I have, but in different folder than player, it do not use it. It looks like it send full soundbank patch, not only name. It maybe fixed like it looks in defined folder, and if soundbank is not there, then it may look to old folder.

Dec 31st almost here ;)

Quote from: TheWalrus on December 17, 2018, 03:53 AM
Dec 31st almost here ;)

;)

Quote from: TheKomodo on December 17, 2018, 09:54 AM

Quote from: TheWalrus on December 17, 2018, 03:53 AM
Dec 31st almost here ;)

;)

and?

Quote from: Danger135 on December 17, 2018, 04:27 PM

Quote from: TheKomodo on December 17, 2018, 09:54 AM

Quote from: TheWalrus on December 17, 2018, 03:53 AM
Dec 31st almost here ;)

;)

and?

yes december 31 is close, but year 2030 is still far away...

Will be any surprise in dec. 31?
Did anybody noticed that we are 18 years away after that magic year 2000, but this future do not looks how it may?!  :o

Quote from: Danger135 on December 17, 2018, 04:43 PM
Will be any surprise in dec. 31?
Did anybody noticed that we are 18 years away after that magic year 2000, but this future do not looks how it may?!  :o

Look in the announcements