Quote from: Random00 on July 04, 2012, 08:03 PM

@Flori's talk about start of a game or midgame.
Just compare it to rr where you do a great run, but knock your head 5 secs before finish. You still played better start and midgame, but lose the game, becauuse you dont finish.
The end of the game is always what matters in ANY scheme. The difference in hysteira is, that you call something a bad start which in fact is not a bad start. Shooting your own worms is far worse in other schemes than it is in hysteria. But also in Hysteria you can play bad at the start and have a disadvantage later (Playing bad is just defined different in hyst than in other schemes).

Its not start and mid game, its start and mid turn you are talking about in RR.
But even if it is for you, it's nothing like hyst, because if you fail your early and mid (turn then), you cant win by an only good end.
What you are saying after is true, hysteria ain't like other schemes, coz killing himself in this schemes is sometimes better than doing a 45 nade shot.
Of course the end of game is always what matters in ANY schemes, but the goal of every game SHOULD be to TRY to get an advantage early and mid game, so you have more chances to win at the end, right ?
But in hyst, someone getting advantage early and mid game dont have more chances to win at the end, because his opponent will just zook from below while you cant reach him.

EDIT : The idea of the topic was to remove t17 or hyst and shoppa from classic league and add big rr/inter.
I think we can say now there is no way we can remove hyst, so maybe we should try to focus on t17/shoppa/big rr/inter and stop talking about hyst on this topic^^.
Don't you think t17 and shoppa are not enough picked to be in classic ?  / Not enough skilled schemes ?
Don't you think inter and big rr should have a chance in classic league ? Inter can be interesting, it requires a lot of reflection, focus, and brainthinking to min and big rr is a lot played in normal and can make more people play the league.

Peja :I dont see the link with the rr. For me if a guy did the same second time in 1 game he deserves to have a chance to win on a 2nd game. Even if he is worse. Whats the link with hyst? I said in hyst a guy playing better whole early and mid game should have more chances at the end. With current rules, all the end of hyst games are same, doesnt bother if someone was better early and mid.
I never said hyst is for noobs

Quote from: Gabriel on July 04, 2012, 07:23 PM
hyst sucks  

I think even boomrace is more competitive xD
maybe ropa was right with that, nappy  

Said number 1 of hysteria in tus league.

ropa : yes its true about the elite thing. I used to hate elite coz i sucked, then i learned it coz i wanted to be good overall and started to like it, now i dislike it again because i suck. But I didn't get the link with hyst^^

Quote from: MonkeyIsland on July 04, 2012, 07:38 PM
*disclaimer* Below content is not pointing to anyone directly.

You want me change Classic league schemes based on your taste.
Master a scheme, then come here and tell me "hey I'm so good in this scheme but I say this scheme is flawed for Classic league". Bring Dario here and let him tell me that Intermediate does not suit Classic league.

All I see is your unwillingness to learn a new scheme. As a league admin, I did got involved with all the schemes here and I tried to get a grip on all. I see uniqueness in every scheme being there.

Team17 is a very advanced scheme. You call it lucky because your mind can't see passed the crates just like people who can't see passed Intermediate random placements and call that a noob scheme.

The only update in the list is to do something with broken BnG and insert Intermediate in.

Many of you have forgotten this is a community, we need people in order to survive. The shinny "quality league" of yours will die in its first month because 20 people will see themselves on the list and switch places. They will get bored before you know. A king needs his people in order to rule. There will be no kingdom if you remove all the normal people.

Man it's not about me. I gave u Rdm+Mab example and told all reasons why i think we have to remove these schemes.
I suck in elite and bng also, did i say i want to remove these schemes ?
I dont like hysteria yes, I gave the reasons why. You can do 0 good shots, just use TPs to pile (and next turn drop an easy attack) or to plop or to hide, and be at the end of the game with equal chances of winning the game, even if ur opponent used jetpack, lg, grenades, zooks, cocktails as a pro.
So yes, now i understood that we cant remove hysteria co its too much picked, coz without it the league wouldnt be active enough, but still we gotta do something so the guy playing very better than his opponent early and mid game has a lot more of chances to win at the end...

T17 and shoppa, is it possible to see the pourcentage of picks ? The league won't become inactive if we remove those schemes. As ropa said, some new people didn't like elite and now really enjoy it because they had to learn it, it'll do the same in intermediate i think. Maybe not, but doesnt it worth a try ? I suck more in Intermediate than in t17, be sure of this.
Remove shoppa and put big rr, for sure there'll be more games in the league. I see a lot of big rr hosts in wormnet, not so much shoppa. You were saying "Many of you have forgotten this is a community, we need people in order to survive." You'll get more people by putting big rr and removing shoppa.

Quote from: Ray on July 04, 2012, 06:42 PM
Hysteria is not going to be removed, because this is a democratic league, not a quality league and there are too many newbies out there who cannot play anything else and keep picking that scheme.

Well if you say so, there is no chance to remove it, I think all "pros" want to remove it and all "news" want to keep it.
So yes, democraticly, it should stay then.
What about adding rules as I said ? Honestly the game is rly better if u remove all plops, suicides, and zook from below and the most skill early and mid game will have real advatange at the end..

Quote from: Professor on July 04, 2012, 05:56 PM
Do u want to remove just the schemes what u arent so good, is it

I suck in every default, just look at my standings in those schemes...

I just think Classic League should be a Pro League and competitive and Hysteria/Shoppa/T17 are 2 schemes, on high lvl, that are not so pro. For example :
Mablak vs Random00 in RR/Roper/WxW(hard map) : Mab wins, he is faster and better roping player than Random00 (and Random00 has got a very good lvl), but in shoppa, They both play with a lot of reflection so the game won't be about who hide the best/who uses in the best way each weapon but only crates will decide who wins, because their level of roping is widely good enough to attack every turn. And this ain't normal because it's a roping schemes. It should reward the best roping player mostly.

In default : I think this is pretty much the same. Mab wins in Elite and BnG (even if Rdm00 is rly pro), but in hyst/t17, Rdm00 got chances because those schemes dont reward enough the best defaulter.

In summary, what i mean is that hyst/t17/shoppa, in high lvl, are too much lucky schemes, and don't deserve to be in Classic, but in Free League.

An other example : eS doing 2-3 vs mm in PO, winning t17 and hysteria, when mm got 50X their lvl.

This is like there is a roof of maximum of skills in t17+shoppa schemes and if both teams get to the roof, only luck will decide who win.
In hysteria it's not really luck, but its like having too much chances to come back on a game by using tactics as ploping worms, killing worms by a fall, using zook by below. Its like early and mid game are not at all important, only the end, and its stupid because for me a guy doing nice shots by lg, jetpack+lg (grenade or zook or anything) should get advantage compare to an other guy. But no, the other will just telecow, plop, or kill himself by fall, and have all chances to win in the end by zook from below. This is not winning by better skill...

Edit : I was just thinking: If we add some rules like : u cant suicide ur worms on purpose, u cant hide right and left to zook, then it would be interesting and the most skilled guy would win. The league is about who got the best skills, and getting an advantage by playing better early and mid game should have a consequence to the end of the game. Currently there is not at all.

Ok. A lot of people gonna hate me I think BUT i hope a lof of people will agree also.
These are the 8 Classic League Schemes :
Elite Team17 Hysteria and BnG as default schemes
TTRR Roper Wxw Shoppa as Rope schemes

50% default, 50% rope, this is fair and done on purpose i guess.

Lets look at defaults.
Elite known as the best default schemes. Lets keep it.
Bng : Ok full of notcher but still one of the principal default schemes and we keep it of course.
T17 : Always have been in the principal defaults games also but I think between pro t17 players luck decides A LOT on who will win
Hysteria : FUN schemes, fun concept, but f@#!ing boring when the end starts and can last 1 hour if both team are playing their LIFE with zook from below. Honestly this is the kind of schemes u can win even if your opponent played 500X better than you whole early and mid game, because of the tactics of the schemes. Telecow, suicide on someone, plop ur worm, zook from below, etc etc (i dont know every lame tactic of the schemes).
So yes i know people will disagree saying, this is not lame, this is the hysteria tactic etc etc, but really, someone that is doing greats lg+jetpack zookshoots, or great nade/zook shots only, nice lg cows, in early and mid game can lose because the other guy just hide 1 worm and zook from below, or gonna use the other tactics i quoted before.
This is like : "The one winning hysteria is the one that got borred the last". Every game of hyst would last 1 hour if both player never get bored and want to win absolutly. In elite, t17n bng, you dont have this.

IN ROPE GAMES :
TTRR : everyone know i'm fan, its recognized as the less lucky rope schemes, and the best roping win almost in every case.
Roper : Some would say its luck, look some really good roper players, they never fall, are fast, and attacks with crates some other players couldnt. Thats also a schemes that reward the best roping player (in most of cases..).
WxW : In some easy map, i agree to say that cr8s can do the differenc between 2 decent players, but on hard maps, its really often that the best roping team wins.
SHOPPA : its a rope schemes, but its not at all a roping fight because everyone can catch the cr8 by 30secs and attack, its more about who get the best hides, who is using weapons better than the other, and also who got the BEST crates.

SO, i propose, to balance default and rope schemes, that we delete shoppa of the list, because it doesnt reward the best roping team at all, and put BIG rr instead. This is not an old schemes, but not so new that it was, its been now a few years, there is a LOOOT of big rr maps, and its a good roping fight that reward the best roping team. So that would make 4 rope schemes that all reward the best roping team/player.
And about hysteria/t17, i propose to remove one of these 2, which I think don't reward the best player most of cases, and put Intermediate instead.
I know a lot of people pick hysteria so I don't think there is a chance to change it by intermediate, even if i'd prefer elite/bng/t17/intermediate than elite/bng/hyst/intermediate because t17 needs more skill than hyst. Hyst for me is more a fun schemes for Free League and doesn't deserve to be in Classic Leagues where only the most skilled and less lucky schemes should be.

That's it

Hf counting 0.02*X by pressing S in the replay, in some map u win around 2 sec by a kick, and u want to count it.
Wow what a loss of time.

Quote from: franz on July 04, 2012, 02:58 PM
hmm well I suppose the default ruling should be how it currently is, but there are definitely enough people who want to use exact times, so MonkeyIsland can we include this in the rules?  If both sides agree before the game, they can use exact times.

No need to write it in rules. You always have been able to use exact times if both sides want it. Nobody gonna complain^^.

I find it disrespecting when someone pick hysteria.

NOOBS

AHAHAHAA
YOU f@#!ING FAILED YOUR f@#!ING BET TO f@#!ING HAVE 50 f@#!ING WIN IN A f@#!ING ROW EVEN AS f@#!ING PLAYING AGAINST ONLY f@#!ING NOOBS !

PS : Sry MI had to do it.

damn 48 is f@#!ing hard to beat without a pump at left or a kick to end time before reaching finish.

Why u wanna add clan tags in singles oO
I like the way it is now.. When it is a clanner we see both tag teams and all 4 players nick, when its a single we see only nicks.
It'll be confusing to see the clan tag in single games i think.. And we won't see clanners games directly. When you look at recent games currently ou find clanner games kinda fast.

Quote from: Statik on June 28, 2012, 07:48 AM
Maybe these guys need replays indeed

HAhaha i'm so laughing as hell
This has to happen after the topic with replays in rr that i'm totally against XD

very nice pump to draw there frank

Its not the same feeling at all playing 3 rr when there was a draw on the 2 1st game and when u just play 3 different games not connected.
Sure i prefer to play 3 games than 1, i like a lot more playing 1 game after 2 draws.
But you got a nice idea i'll ask all fans of rr to do bo3/5 in tus/trl. :d

Quote from: Komito on June 28, 2012, 05:48 AM
Why is it you guys are saying it bothers you so much to check a replay for milliseconds, yet you would be happy enough to go checking through a replay if there was a possible cow on a crucial turn of a game, for example, a grenade done a sitter in a BnG for 0.26s or 0.24s but the rules account only for 0.25s.

In a WxW for example, the recent WxW Tournament I done which was Masta Vs guuuria, and it was guuurias turn, she didn't technically touch the far wall, because checking it in the slowest framerate in the replay, you can see the worm touched the roof, not the wall, the sound did not activate until the roof was touched, but because some of the worms sprite was layering over the wall, MonkeyIsland allowed it and guuuria got the win, everyone was happy to check this and wait, and it took around 6 minutes or something to come to a decision.

You guys are being kinda, innocently hypocritical I think, like, you already do similar stuff but don't realise the similarities.

TTRR should be MS for both 1v1/2v2.

We should be thinking "Specifically, did they win or not?" Not, "Well, they were close enough let's just allow it..."

You don't know me well komo because i'd NEVER look the time of a sit or looking replay if the guy hit the roof or did a knock on ground. Its fine for me its involuntary and i accept mistakes like that.

I repeat myself but last rr vs daina for example :
https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-115729/
2 draws.
1st game. I draw on last worm im damn f@#!ing happy.
2st game. She draws on last worm she is f@#!ing happy AND i think something like "damn what a bitch i wanna own her so hard on 3rd game"
I always prefer 1-2 or more draws in rr than 1 game. This add so much excitation and fun.
Damn it i prefer 100 times a game (any schemes) not usual and exciting even if i lose it at the end than winning a basic game.
An other example : In roper if i lose in sd by after 10 turns because it was damn hard to do the w2w and my opponent was better than me at this, i had a lot of fun and excitation on this fight and i prefer this than winning in 5 minutes because my opponent sucked.
I understand you can think this is not right, that by the law of physics you shouldn't risk to lose the game whereas u had a better time on 1st game, but for me the feeling i have when me or opponent draw on last worm is so good that we shouldnt take it off by changing the rule...It'll break somehow the fun of the schemes.

Anyway, im sure there is more players that prefer keep the usual rule 1v1 (about 2v2 i can understand a little modification) than changing to milliseconds.
We could just do a vote tho, i feel like we can do 10 more pages in the topic and not advance.