Shy, mistakes in ropers are very common, and they decide the game way more than crates (the replays don't lie, go look at any of them).  I've never denied that crates do affect every game in some way. My point has always been that in the end the best player that game wins just about every time anyway.

So all arguments that the roper scheme is flawed or maps these days are flawed, or this and that are flawed... just look at any roper replay and realize that the loser's gameplay was flawed in some way, and they should blame themself the most.

I'm repeating myself so much that my posts are turning into hyperlinks to all my previous points  

Edit: I'll reply here to your comments edited in about that angus/HHC game.  Tough crates are not an excuse to play less than your best.  That isn't the mindset you should have if you really want to win because then you are just playing the victim role.  This does nothing but hurt your chances, so don't just automatically give up on a turn just because there is a bad crate.  Try to hustle and return to the best hide, and show your opponent that you are working hard even though a bad crate comes.  Even that can impress your opponent sometimes and make them nervous.  Find the positive in the negative 

Quote from: Crazy on December 27, 2010, 01:34 AM
Crate rape? Take a look at this game:[attachment=1]

angus missed a few full damage turns, like 0:27, 4:28, 6:10, 12:16 just to name some.  his biggest weakness though was his hiding.  when a hard crate came, you should still hustle and grab the crate so that you can hide back where you started, but he just slowly grabs them and hides in weaker spots.  if he improved those missed turns and the hiding, he could have a great chance at winning.

hmm, I don't deny, that was a really nice run.. but I asked specifically about the starting area rules well before I got too far into attempting this map, and dulek said to start on the horizontal part of the start.. not the little spike.  ;/

avi, even with the randomness of crates, the probability of those crates happening like that is close to zero.  so unless you have a replay of this  

anyway, I've never denied that crates do affect every game in some way.  here are my words back on July27 during the w2rope discussion:

Quote from: franz on July 27, 2010, 11:32 PM
because in the end the best player that game wins just about every time anyway.

I agree that it would be nice to have a roper scheme that doesn't let the game engine dictate even a single turn, so only 100% skill is involved, but what would that look like?  Would it even be fun?

a roper scheme truly without luck would be one without health crates entirely.  you could just go w2w every turn so that way every turn is treated equal.  would this really be fun?

now if only there was a way to randomly pick a map from such a huge library 

lol Madden

darkone, love your one-liner, emphasized with "Period."  it's like you ended the whole argument single handedly with awesome proof and authority  

sorry for the derail, go ahead with the awards if you all like! cheers again

Quote from: Koras on December 26, 2010, 10:35 PM
Dario is a pawn 
Kilo is real boss of NNN, like a godfather 

ahhh 

So since two people playing mistake-free almost never happens, I can't argue that mistakes determine games waaay more than crates ever do?

I know you didn't say equally bad, but it doesn't matter.. equally 'anything' good/bad/whatever, if it isn't your best, you can only blame yourself.

Quote from: Komito on December 26, 2010, 10:00 PM
no one can never make mistakes in anything, this is called being human, I really don't agree with your defense, after playing this game for 10+ years people still make mistakes in every single scheme, so if that is the only defense you have, then I rest my case because either way, crates can still decide the outcome lol.

you say you don't agree with my defense, but your first comment means you misunderstood my argument. you talking about mistakes makes me think you can understand my point about mistakes determining games way more than crates.

true "no one can never make mistakes in anything, this is called being human" but there is another thing that is called being human ->  not taking responsibility for your own actions.  So you lost a game?  It can be human nature to blame forces outside yourself (hello crate rape!), but take responsibility for your own gameplay, play your best, and make it your goal to play mistake-free (just because it almost never happens doesn't mean you can't make it a goal).  cheers

Quote from: Komito on December 26, 2010, 09:49 PM
2 players playing there best, never miss and 1 bad crate - crate rape and can cost a game.

^ this basically never happens.  nearly every single game has some form of mistake in it, and I'll believe this until you show me replays proving otherwise.

Quote from: Komito on December 26, 2010, 09:49 PM
2 players playing equal, no matter how and 1 bad crate at the end - crate rape and can cost the game.

again, playing equally bad as someone is no excuse, even if 1 bad crate at the end breaks the equal balance. you only have yourself to blame for playing bad in the first place.

I definitely hear you and what you're saying, just realize that "both players playing equal" and "both players playing their best" are completely different things.  sure, if they are both playing equally mediocre, then one bad crate can make one player ahead, but in the end, you can only blame yourself for playing mediocre in the first place.  even playing "good" often doesn't cut it, you have to play your best if you want the best chance to win.

Quote from: Kilobyte on December 26, 2010, 08:52 PM
I afraid you misunderstood me. NNN and TUS lives well stand alone, it was just a question if you TUS like it or not (this question isn't mine, not even an NNN guy ). Or what is your opinion. But so far, only we NNNs was asked about it, and TUS haven't. And this affect the whole WA community - that's why me and MI won't do it off our own bat.

And yes, I'm the creator/maintainer of NNN system.

sorry for the misunderstanding, it sounds clear now that you're just asking how the TUS community would react and/or welcome this.

Komito says it well, that although some of the community may not play normal, they can respect the hard work that you guys do for the normal community. HHC though seems to bring up the challenges though.. but maybe you've already thought about those in private with MI?  If none of those are issues, then I can only see good coming out of the idea.

komo, I'm not really that close minded, you should know this about me ;p  like you, I am willing to argue, so try not to mix up the two.

again, you've "seen so many games", well then show me one?  someone like you who likes to prove a point shouldn't have much trouble finding at least one game, right?

one thing I notice people doing is only focusing on that one bad crate at the end of the game, when really you have to view the game as a whole.  sometimes the result of a match can be traced all the way back to many turns in the beginning when everything didn't quite work out.  so don't automatically assume it's just a single crate's fault at the end of a game  

Quote from: lacoste on December 26, 2010, 08:34 PM

Quote from: franz on December 26, 2010, 08:20 PM
You must be the main person who runs NNN?  if not, isn't that Dario?  shouldn't he be asking this, or do you have his permission?

This might be a better conversation in private between MonkeyIsland and whoever is in charge at NNN.  send him a pm or find him on msn maybe

Do you really think they didnt discuss it inhouse before announcing it here?

And another thing is, that case has around 1 year now and MI and other NNN's know the situation, the question is sent to TUS community.

sorry, the tone of the post made it sound like this was the first time it was brought up ;d

Quote from: Kilobyte on December 26, 2010, 08:11 PM
The question is: you TUS, how would you accept that? Do you think it worth it? Uneccessary, a must, superfluous, feel sick? Can it bring the big community together, complete with an intermediate scheme which has almost 6000 games/years - or will it create inner problems?

from someone who doesn't really play normal/NNN, I still don't see it causing any problems or making people 'feel sick'.  go for it

You must be the main person who runs NNN?  if not, isn't that Dario?  shouldn't he be asking this, or do you have his permission?

This might be a better conversation in private between MonkeyIsland and whoever is in charge at NNN.  send him a pm or find him on msn maybe