Long topic but interresting if you ignore the "I am the best" part :-).
As ropa pointed out. Using sg is not a key factor in elite.
I'd say, in shopper you have to be able to rope. It requiere skills but it's not that hard to get it. Exactly like sg in elite. If you want to do 25 you have to get some skills. With good skills you'll always do 25. But if you use your brain and see that you can bat him to the water, no matters if you missed  a 25 hp shoot. As in elite, best players are the one who can do 25 hp shot and use their brain, in shopper that's the one who masterize rope knocking,blocking and the use of weapon.
After talking if roping is more important than the weapon.. I'd say you have to get a minimum skills of both.
Ropa, imagine volrin play against chicken in a  giant tight map volrin who masterized rope would have won.
In the other case, on dogma map chicken would have won.
I'd say most of the shoppa map are easy ropable so chicken would win most of the time. But for a wxw I wouldn't say the same

Quote from: ropa on July 24, 2011, 10:18 PM
Historically, you'll also find out that dedicated ropers struggled with shoppers whilst the dudes that used to play team17 and elite had no issues with it.
anyone would pick chicken over volrin in a shopper. anyone.

I think you completely miss the point when you minimize roping abilities on being able to rope quickly and safely. If Chicken is able to rope safely through a shoppa map and he's able to rope knock worms safely in tough, narrow hides, commonly found on most shopper maps, he has some good roping skills, as simple as that. Kind of the same difference between roper and rr, quite different kind of roping required for those. I don't find the tactics to be different from other roping schemes either... it's mostly about piling the right worm and stuff like that. Totally common stuff.

I gotta admit, Both nail and ropa make excellent points and they are both pretty much right, but, to me Shopper is the odd one out, it's a hybrid it's not a roping scheme and it's not a default scheme yet at the same time it's a roping scheme and a default scheme, it's a "Hybrid" scheme, I believe classic should have a balance of Rope schemes/Default schemes and a few Hybrids.

Plus: A very good Roper and a very good Eliter will BOTH get annihilated by a very good Hybrid player

And they actually only added Ninja Rope to Shopper to make it more "fun", if you played the previous Worms when Ninja Rope didn't exist, you would know that, so because of this fact, I agree with ropa, "Shopper" is the term used for collecting crates.

both ropa and NAiL made good points, I was kinda accepting shopper as default scheme, but then I read chakkman's post and now I can't decide!

Quote from: chakkman on July 24, 2011, 11:27 PM
it's mostly about piling the right worm and stuff like that. Totally common stuff.

Yup, totally common rope stuff. That's why it isn't a rope scheme, nor is elite.

I'm afraid the level of shopper is so low nowadays that people are unable to grasp the concept.
WxW is a roper scheme, because most of the time you don't think what to do with the weapon, you only think about roping fast enough so you have enough time to attack with the first weapon that comes to mind. In shopper, most of your turn is dedicated to deciding what to do with the weapons you have, and you use roping as a mean to achieve the attack.
We have agreed that you require more default skill to win, yet you insist in calling it a roper scheme because rope is used often.
Then I guess Roper is a chute scheme, right?

chakkman: roping safely around a shopper map and being able to do simple knocks does not make Chicken (using the example not talking in stone) a good roper, the same way being able to navigate and knock through the map in intermediate doesn't make you a good roper either, the only difference concerning the rope between intermediate and shopper is that in one you have limited ropes and in the other you use them every time, but the skill needed is almost identical.
Chicken will win because he will know when and were to use the weapons to maximize their potential, which is what wins shoppers for people, being a super fast good roper doesn't guarantee you the win, in fact, it really doesn't affect the outcome, on the other hand, ability to use weapons DOES affect the outcome.

This website has done a good job at letting go a lot of people that could add actual insight to this topic, and if the same modus operandis continues to be used I'm afraid it will only drag them more away.

Well, I totally agree with ropa exept a point.
In inter, you can win without using a single rope whereas in shoppa if your skills are null in rope you cannot win.
For me shoppa is a rope scheme. Why ?
1) if you cannot rope you can't attack
2) I will always think of shoppa as the noob roper school . Most of "new" people start with shoppa to learn roping.

Finally, if you're new to worms and know only the basic  weapon skills. You'll be able to play any default game (elite,inter...) but you won't be able to play shoppa because you won't be able to rope. If you know only rope, you still can manage to get the create and attack for like 2hp. Still 2hp is more than 0.

I understand ropa point of view. For you who is a good roper, roping in shoppa only use 5% of your skills but for someone new, the big deal is to rope to the crate and attack in 30 sec. So that's what make it a rope scheme for me

The dynamic of the game is more similar to roper and WxW then it is to other schemes in TUS classic (though it does have some similarities to hysteria concerning piling). The fact that roping well is not as much an issue here does not detract from that.

If you're going to look at the skills required, then you'll find that T17 doesn't really fit in the same group as BnG. Hysteria doesn't quite fit in with elite either. You'd need 8 separate categories for all these schemes (though WxW and roper are most similar in the bunch and wouldn't require a separate niche).
In the end, it comes down to what system is workable. It's not a perfect divide, but then I don't think there is one. But if you still want to continue this train of thought, then perhaps we should introduce the great divide between ropers and non-ropers in the discussion too; after all, the rope is just one weapon out of plenty more. Why should the rope be so important for playoffs?

The current system is a compromise, no doubt. It has its fault, just like any other system, but it's a package deal. Try a new system and people will complain about the downsides of that system.

Quote from: ropa on July 25, 2011, 11:59 AM
This website has done a good job at letting go a lot of people that could add actual insight to this topic, and if the same modus operandis continues to be used I'm afraid it will only drag them more away.

Not sure what to make of this. You're making it sound as if MI fired them, but that would mean he hired them first, doesn't it? People come and go as they please. Don't blame other people for it, it's their own choice.

Quote from: DarkOne on July 25, 2011, 05:07 PM
The dynamic of the game is more similar to roper and WxW then it is to other schemes in TUS classic (though it does have some similarities to hysteria concerning piling). The fact that roping well is not as much an issue here does not detract from that.

It is not fair to put limiations on rating gains, and apply limitations on PO setup based on "dynamic of the game", that doesn't make any sense to me, and I doubt it makes any for you.

Quote
If you're going to look at the skills required, then you'll find that T17 doesn't really fit in the same group as BnG. Hysteria doesn't quite fit in with elite either. You'd need 8 separate categories for all these schemes (though WxW and roper are most similar in the bunch and wouldn't require a separate niche).

I don't think you're trying to justfy this by saying "well, these other things are wrong too", but that's how it sounded D1. There's a division in 4 groups that makes infinitely more sense, in fact, I'm pretty sure you should be aware of it?

Quote
In the end, it comes down to what system is workable. It's not a perfect divide, but then I don't think there is one.

there might be no perfect divide, but there's others much better than the current so I don't understand what you're trying to tell me with this.

Quote
But if you still want to continue this train of thought, then perhaps we should introduce the great divide between ropers and non-ropers in the discussion too; after all, the rope is just one weapon out of plenty more. Why should the rope be so important for playoffs?

because there's three schemes that majoritarily rely on the rope skill.

Quote
The current system is a compromise, no doubt. It has its fault, just like any other system, but it's a package deal. Try a new system and people will complain about the downsides of that system.

yes but I don't really care about "In practice" since I'm not running a league, I'm only highlighting what I think is wrong here, and it's up to the staff to listen or ask for feedback.

Quote from: ropa on July 25, 2011, 11:59 AM
This website has done a good job at letting go a lot of people that could add actual insight to this topic, and if the same modus operandis continues to be used I'm afraid it will only drag them more away.

Quote
Not sure what to make of this. You're making it sound as if MI fired them, but that would mean he hired them first, doesn't it? People come and go as they please. Don't blame other people for it, it's their own choice.

I didn't mean that, what I meant is that I believe that if you don't enforce a minimun quality of posting (and encourage it) eventually the more insightful members will leave, good job on the shout box though, it's like forums but for the special members. Don't want to generalize but I think that's mostly the case. Because if those people were still here adding to the discussion then it would probably be easier for sense to expand, since I wouldn't be alone, and quite frankly, we all know how many people are going to automaticly disagree with me just because they're jealous of by bigger dick.

who f@#!ing cares

Quote from: avirex on July 25, 2011, 05:35 PM
who f@#!ing cares

Quote from: DarkOne on July 25, 2011, 05:07 PM
after all, the rope is just one weapon out of plenty more. Why should the rope be so important for playoffs?

What's the difference between t17 and shopper? The rope. You're the ones giving it such importance, not me. In fact, I'm trying to convince people that rope skill is as important in shopper as the ability to throw grenades in elite, you can't win without it, but elite is not bng, and shopper is not roper.

"In the Classic League, the first four games must include two rope based schemes (Rope Race, Roper, WxW, Shopper) and two normal schemes (BnG, Team17, Elite, Hysteria). The last game is picked by the higher ranked player and can be any of these schemes."

who decided on this rule anyway? it being there isn't even worth all this discussion on which schemes qualify under ROPE or DEFAULT. I'd just get rid of the rule and hope for the best.

only the top rated clans who often make the playoffs are affected anyway, so they could voice their opinion or maybe even vote on it.

I'm not a top rated player that would be affected by this rule for any singles, but I might be affected in clanner

In my opinion, going by playing experience and the 'best' shopper players, shopper is a default scheme if it has to be divided by rope/default classification.

I believe this because:

a) The better defaulter would make better use of the weapons and therefore would employ tactics that they wouldn't be able to achieve in roper (there are more than 3 attacking weapons, you don't know beforehand what weapon you will get). The roping element in shopper for any skilled player should also be a non-issue. It cannot be regarded as a skill to be able to collect a crate, and possibly knock in the given time limit. Roper scheme only allows half the time to achieve this and less worms to attack.

b)  The best shoppers are better defaulters. Yes, sounds like a generalisation, but how else can you categorise the scheme? This point is massive in a playoff. The better rope player would never want to pick shopper. More like, the better defaulter would be delighted to be 2-2 with shopper as last scheme.

If you are using default/rope style schemes for the aid of playoff choices, shopper must surely be a default

Quote from: Ryan on July 25, 2011, 06:31 PM
I'm not a top rated player that would be affected by this rule for any singles, but I might be affected in clanner

In my opinion, going by playing experience and the 'best' shopper players, shopper is a default scheme if it has to be divided by rope/default classification.

I believe this because:

a) The better defaulter would make better use of the weapons and therefore would employ tactics that they wouldn't be able to achieve in roper (there are more than 3 attacking weapons, you don't know beforehand what weapon you will get). The roping element in shopper for any skilled player should also be a non-issue. It cannot be regarded as a skill to be able to collect a crate, and possibly knock in the given time limit. Roper scheme only allows half the time to achieve this and less worms to attack.

b)  The best shoppers are better defaulters. Yes, sounds like a generalisation, but how else can you categorise the scheme? This point is massive in a playoff. The better rope player would never want to pick shopper. More like, the better defaulter would be delighted to be 2-2 with shopper as last scheme.

If you are using default/rope style schemes for the aid of playoff choices, shopper must surely be a default

welcome back Ryan

ropa, what the hell does my post count have to do with how silly this debate is...

i run a clan, a community, and have a strong need to bicker with komo under any circumstance, of course my post count is high.

but that does not make a debate about if shoppa scheme is more default, or more roper...

its f@#!ing both, komo said it best.. i dunno about calling it a "hybrid" scheme hahaha but its a f@#!in good combination of both roping, and weapon use...

nail is right, u are a f@#!ing pussy!