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Author Topic: WormNET Service Updates  (Read 16811 times)

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Offline j0e

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Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2020, 09:41 PM »
This is huge news!!! Being able to host any 3.8 scheme with HB now. Should start seeing popularity of new schemes rising and more innovation, more new schemes. Thanks so much for your hard work everybody involved.

Offline StepS

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2021, 04:07 PM »
The most massive HostingBuddy schemes update has just occurred.
The following schemes have been updated to accommodate the current play styles and make maximum use of v3.8 features:
  • Battle Race
  • Big BnA
  • Big Rope Race - 1 worm, antisink, no teleport, 40s turn, 0s automatic retreat
  • BnA - balance update
  • BnG - circular crosshair and cycled power.
  • Boom Race - multishot and phased teams now enabled. New: weapons can go through teammates but still damage them.
  • Bungee Race
  • Bungee Shopper - handpicked TestStuff features for balance.
  • Burning Girders - more fire on the map allowed.
  • Darts - Low Gravity is now permanently enabled and thus removed from the scheme. All worms and weapons fully phased.
  • Elite - always no knocking.
  • Fort - auto-place by ally optionally available.
  • Ghost Knocking - always yes knocking.
  • Golf - retreat removed.
  • Hysteria - random worm order.
  • Jetpack Race - scheme was totally broken. Now 25s turn + 5s grenade retreat.
  • Kaos Normal - 52s, 3s hotseat, 5s automatic retreat, no invisibility/crateshower (kaosmod3)
  • Mine Madness
  • Parachute Race - wind is now unbiased and does not depend on a worm's location on the map.
  • Plop War
  • Rope Race - wind removed, antisink on. (including all other Race schemes except Parachute Race)
  • Shopper (including all its variants) - balance update
  • Solid testing
  • Super Sheep Race
  • Surf Shopper - handpicked TestStuff features for balance.
  • TTRR
  • Team17 - WormsLeague scheme with glitches disabled.
  • Testing
  • Tower Rope Race - now in sync with Big RR
  • Warmer - maximum keep control and SWAT enabled.
  • Wascar
Four brand-new schemes have been added:
  • Aerial SD
  • Kaos Pro - 45s, 5s hotseat, 5s automatic retreat, no damagex2/crateshower (kaosmod4), no french sheep strike
  • Power Prodder
  • Black Hole BnG (Rubber BnG)
You can download the schemes for private use under this post. Please report any irregularities you see with any of the schemes after this update.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 04:09 PM by StepS »
Dec 30 2013 23:59:44 <StepS> windowed mode isn't the only thing you need about frontend
Dec 30 2013 23:59:49 <StepS> you need it to be actually bigger
Dec 31 2013 00:00:13 <StepS> it actually is very small on my 15-inch full HD screen
Dec 31 2013 00:00:25 <StepS> while running at 640x480 or stretched mode makes it fuzzy
Dec 31 2013 00:00:44 <StepS> this problem has been around since the Worms Armageddon's release and no one has even tried to beat it
[...]

Offline Chicken23

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2021, 04:59 PM »
Hi Steps

without opening a can of worms. How was the BnG scheme determined?

With all agreed schemes in HB, can the next step be ranks on 4.0 for the different schemes?

Offline TheKomodo

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2021, 05:20 PM »
What the f...

You just murdered BnG you fools!  :D

Not that any good BnG player will use HB anyway lol.

Where the hell was this all decided lol.

Offline StepS

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2021, 09:37 PM »
Players had 48 hours to submit their feedback through the Discord server.

There is no automatic reaiming or resetting of the angle in BnG. The two other options were long overdue and increase the skill ceiling while not "killing" the scheme. Welcome to test the changes in a live game before forming your opinion.
Dec 30 2013 23:59:44 <StepS> windowed mode isn't the only thing you need about frontend
Dec 30 2013 23:59:49 <StepS> you need it to be actually bigger
Dec 31 2013 00:00:13 <StepS> it actually is very small on my 15-inch full HD screen
Dec 31 2013 00:00:25 <StepS> while running at 640x480 or stretched mode makes it fuzzy
Dec 31 2013 00:00:44 <StepS> this problem has been around since the Worms Armageddon's release and no one has even tried to beat it
[...]

Offline TheKomodo

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2021, 10:03 PM »
Players had 48 hours to submit their feedback through the Discord server.

I left that server after seeing racism & homophobic slurs met with a simple warning, that was the last straw for me.

I've played with those settings a long time ago, as they have been around for a long time, bit disappointed you would think I haven't tried those yet considering how actually stupidly addicted I was to BnG.

But it's only HostingBuddy, HostingBuddy is not mandatory or official and BnG is pretty dead anyway, which makes me wonder why the hell i'm even talking about this. :D

I guess i'd personally feel better if there was an official body in an official place doing stuff like this, it would feel much better to accept changes we don't like.


Offline StepS

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2021, 10:15 PM »
I left that server after seeing racism & homophobic slurs met with a simple warning, that was the last straw for me.
There was one message from skunk3 that was overlooked, and was then quickly removed after your complaint. I'm afraid you are extrapolating from that single incident.

BnG is pretty dead anyway
Right, so you can't "kill" something more than it already has been.
This is why I think we need something fresh to revitalize the scheme. Extended fuse delays (or even a fractional fuse with a future update) could be interesting too. It could also be worth revisiting some of the old rules and make amendments.

Not all change is good, and if you have any concerns please list them in detail and we will rethink some updates. It is actually thanks to that feedback from you and others that the auto-reaiming was not enabled. More updates for HB schemes and more new HB schemes are planned, there is always time to revisit them again.

I would also like more feedback on other schemes rather than just BnG.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 10:19 PM by StepS »
Dec 30 2013 23:59:44 <StepS> windowed mode isn't the only thing you need about frontend
Dec 30 2013 23:59:49 <StepS> you need it to be actually bigger
Dec 31 2013 00:00:13 <StepS> it actually is very small on my 15-inch full HD screen
Dec 31 2013 00:00:25 <StepS> while running at 640x480 or stretched mode makes it fuzzy
Dec 31 2013 00:00:44 <StepS> this problem has been around since the Worms Armageddon's release and no one has even tried to beat it
[...]

Offline Chicken23

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2021, 11:04 PM »
I left that server after seeing racism & homophobic slurs met with a simple warning, that was the last straw for me.
There was one message from skunk3 that was overlooked, and was then quickly removed after your complaint. I'm afraid you are extrapolating from that single incident.

BnG is pretty dead anyway
Right, so you can't "kill" something more than it already has been.
This is why I think we need something fresh to revitalize the scheme. Extended fuse delays (or even a fractional fuse with a future update) could be interesting too. It could also be worth revisiting some of the old rules and make amendments.

Not all change is good, and if you have any concerns please list them in detail and we will rethink some updates. It is actually thanks to that feedback from you and others that the auto-reaiming was not enabled. More updates for HB schemes and more new HB schemes are planned, there is always time to revisit them again.

I would also like more feedback on other schemes rather than just BnG.

Even though BnG is 'dead', it's really important to get the HB schemes correct and as good as the whole community wants them to be because I heard HB would be the basis for 4.0 ranking. I think 48 hours notice in that discover service is a bit short notice.

However like you said they are not permanent fixes. I'd be really interested in trying the scheme, I also wonder if DC could hardcode 'rules' into the scheme to prevent straight zooks, sitters, close teleports etc?

Offline StepS

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2021, 11:37 PM »
I'd be really interested in trying the scheme, I also wonder if DC could hardcode 'rules' into the scheme to prevent straight zooks, sitters, close teleports etc?

Yes, more scheme rules are planned to become options for the future. Anti-sitters is a no brainier that I'm pretty sure no one would be against. Also better placement in "auto place by ally" mode.

Senator pointed out to me (with links to relevant discussions) that anti-lock power was attempted in the past for BnG and decided to be removed after a test period. This is the kind of feedback I want, not a "this kills the scheme".

I'm planning to do another update for schemes next week, please keep suggestions coming.
Dec 30 2013 23:59:44 <StepS> windowed mode isn't the only thing you need about frontend
Dec 30 2013 23:59:49 <StepS> you need it to be actually bigger
Dec 31 2013 00:00:13 <StepS> it actually is very small on my 15-inch full HD screen
Dec 31 2013 00:00:25 <StepS> while running at 640x480 or stretched mode makes it fuzzy
Dec 31 2013 00:00:44 <StepS> this problem has been around since the Worms Armageddon's release and no one has even tried to beat it
[...]

Offline TheKomodo

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2021, 12:53 AM »
I'm afraid you are extrapolating from that single incident.

You're assuming, and your assumption is wrong.

Anyway, not here to debate that stuff, just informing you i'm not there anymore so I didn't know about this Discord poll, and the last reason why.

My 1st reply to this was actually just messing around hence the overuse of "lol" and the emoji, to be honest, it was a pretty stupid reply and I shouldn't even have made it.

But now you are asking for serious feedback, I should actually act mature.



I've had a little think now, and my only genuine concern actually, and this isn't just for BnG, I don't want people to confuse HostingBuddy rules with classic/league rules and schemes people are used to.

Just like how there are lots of people who say piling and teleport suicide moves in Hysteria are against the rules, which really bugs me because I 1st heard of the scheme as having no rules, that was the appeal to me. I don't want people to start becoming confused and arguing over the differences in rules.

Even if there was a disclaimer whenever someone joined a hosted game, something like, "These are not the official scheme settings & rules, these are the settings decided by a minority of members on the 'Worms Armageddon DoJo' Discord community."

I say minority because even though there are like 1500+ members, I assume(please correct me if I am wrong), far less than half actually bothered to vote or say something, in fact i'd imagine maybe around 100-250(being generous) people were involved with actual voting(or use of emoji's), and only 1 or 2 dozen people actually discussed things.

Anyway, i'd personally love to see a disclaimer that says these are HostingBuddy's version of rules and shouldn't be associated with classic settings and/or league settings.

Otherwise I actually feel like it's pretty lame for HostingBuddy to dictate and influence people like this, influencing a massive amount of people based on the opinions of a minority.

I'm surprised this poll wasn't advertised on other Worms related channels including TUS, I think a massive change to standard rules should have a longer process and polls for more people to submit their preferences.



Edit:

Hysteria - Random worm order? Really??? I actually do believe that change is extremely bad, personally speaking, that's a horrible change that ruins the entire vibe of the scheme in a competitive sense, it makes the scheme less strategic and greatly increases the luck factor from starting positions and who gets 1st turn, and there was a few discussions about this scheme recently explaining why. If you change Hysteria this way, you should actually rename it, because it's actually a MAJOR change.

https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-16/msg277063/#msg277063

It's selecsteria, but causes the same issues as random worm order by taking away planning ahead and the ability to control the game better regardless of how it started.

Plus, it discusses the reasons why some people want to change the scheme in the first place and arguing those, from one perspective, illogical reasons.

In fact, just call it Lucksteria now, seems more fitting in my opinion.  :D

Change the name of the scheme, i'd be happy, just how like ZaR Roper is different from normal Roper and W2 Roper, random turn order worms makes a massive difference, enough to be considered a different scheme in my opinion.

Even if when you hosted Hysteria, it asked you which variation you want, that would be cool. Actually, if I am not mistaken, didn't DarkOne or HHC actually make a Randomsteria scheme? That is exactly that, random worm order?

Rope Race - Makes sense, Big Rope Race should have wind removed as well.

Darts - Now I see why you were sending me PM's about Darts, did you ask others as well, I hope so as i'd hate to have influenced that decision alone, as much as I feel it makes sense lol.

Golf - Having retreat removed, I can see why that's applied.

BnG - I think it should have just been left the way it was until Deadcode tries to implement the changes to the game engine or whatever it was he said I can't remember exactly, but it would literally make notching impossible because set notching wouldn't work(at least not without macros or AI or something).

I just don't see the point in changing this, it seems completely biased to me, either this setting should be applied to every single scheme that uses ground fired weapons, or it shouldn't be used at all, i'm actually fine with either option.

Tower Race - I've been hosting a lot of Tower Race with 1 worm, antisink. I was getting a lot of praise for antisink, but a lot of complaints/suggestions about the lack of teleports, so I added infinite teleports instead and the scheme seems great now, the videos will be gone from my stream now but I streamed quite a bit 3-4 months ago.

Black Hole BnG - Lol, what's that? Need to have a blast of that!





Offline Senator

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2021, 05:53 PM »
@Hysteria/Randomsteria

Hysteria
Quote
4. What happened to random worm order in Hysteria? Has anyone ever tested it thoroughly in 1v1 matches (preferably with more than 4 worms a side) and what were their findings?

Randomsteria is really a good alternative to Hysteria because it makes inconvenient to suicide their worms and it is more difficult to play on the opponent's turns (you know telecow, jetpackcow) but the luck factor is much higher and WA doesn't like this word especially if it is played competitively. We should discuss more about this point because it's very important.

Luck factor really isn't higher with randomsteria - unless you try to pile your way to victory. Your worm positions simply all need to be good. If you have a worm in a useless position, then that worm truly becomes a reliability now.
Random turn order isn't completely random - if you have 4 worms, then the next 4 turns will be randomized, but all your worms get their turn. After that is completed, a new batch of turns is decided in exactly the same way - all worms get their turns, but the order in which this happens is randomized.

This means there's still a way to abuse turn order with certain success, but it takes more effort from the person wanting to employ it and can only be used when there's a big advantage in amount of worms (percentage wise). Therefore the importance of this tactic is much more downplayed, especially in the early game. Makes telecide a much less favourable tactic, too.

Random turn order isn't completely random - if you have 4 worms, then the next 4 turns will be randomized, but all your worms get their turn. After that is completed, a new batch of turns is decided in exactly the right way - all worms get their turns, but the order in which this happens is randomized.

I didn't know about it, I thought that worms were chosen at random each turn with the risk that some of them couldn't never attack, this is why I talked about luck. At this point I have nothing against this variant and I guess that we can try to play with this scheme if it helps to reduce the abuse of turn order.
Also, KRD, you mentioned you'd check out the cups I linked to, but appear to not have followed through on that :o

I held a poll afterwards about what people would prefer, I think it was half wanted to keep original, the others wanted random turn order. The people who generally oppose random turn order, I feel, didn't really understand how random turn order works, though. They keep saying it makes the scheme all luck, which certainly is not the case. It merely makes early suicide very unappealing, which was kind of the point of that experiment to begin with (and early suicide tactics is what makes a lot of people hate hysteria)

If I've understood right,
1 vs 2/3/4 = safe telecow
2 vs 4 = safe telecow
2 vs 3 = luck based telecow
3 vs 4 = luck based telecow

So random turn order doesn't eliminate telecow as a comeback mechanism completely. You just need to be more behind or have 1 worm left to use it reliably.

I was surprised about this sudden change because the idea has been just one among others (?).

@BnG

I would have expected the auto re-aim feature but not these changes. The "re-aim before every shot" rule needs to be implemented one way or another for the possible ranked channel - or you need to get rid of the rule. Auto re-aim is also good for newcomers who are not familiar with the rules.

Offline lolicon-guy

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Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2021, 06:01 PM »
Hm, yeah, I always wondered why telecow is a thing at all. Let alone getting a proper explanation on what is it. Thought Hysteria had no rules?

Offline Danger135

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Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2021, 07:13 PM »
Need reaim is totally useless thing. You can put finger on screen where is aim circle, then move it to way, and take it back to exactly position where it was. So in fact, you reaim, you wasted some time, and you aim at exactly same place as before.
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Offline TheKomodo

Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2021, 07:14 PM »
I held a poll afterwards about what people would prefer, I think it was half wanted to keep original, the others wanted random turn order. The people who generally oppose random turn order, I feel, didn't really understand how random turn order works, though. They keep saying it makes the scheme all luck, which certainly is not the case. It merely makes early suicide very unappealing, which was kind of the point of that experiment to begin with (and early suicide tactics is what makes a lot of people hate hysteria)

That paragraph actually makes me cringe...

Assuming we are talking about decent players and not, sorry to say, complete noobs and people who never really understood gaming in the first place, it's pretty lame to assume they don't understand such an incredibly simple concept as random turn order.

I, myself, have played a lot of Hysteria, it was one of my favourite League schemes of all time, selectsteria/randomsteria etc were extremely horrible variations to me.

The scheme, with no rules, and normal turn order, is completely fair, it doesn't even need changed. Almost all changes ever proposed for Hysteria are, I cannot stress this enough, entirely based on subjective and personal opinions.

Trying to change it is a perfect example of a group of people who personally want to improve the scheme more to their personal tastes, instead of actually improving the scheme.

I believe the requirements to change a scheme should be simple:

Add something without taking away something which lots of people feel is important.

Also, I spent about 20-30 hours one week playing random turn order and select worm Hysterias some years back when first proposed and personally I noticed a dramatic increase in luck based advantages and opportunities, which are the exact reasons I absolutely hate these proposed changes.

So random turn order doesn't eliminate telecow as a comeback mechanism completely. You just need to be more behind or have 1 worm left to use it reliably.

That's true, random turn order is better than select worms, i'll admit that, but it's still not nearly as good as the classic scheme we are used to, in my opinion.

Need reaim is totally useless thing. You can put finger on screen where is aim circle, then move it to way, and take it back to exactly position where it was. So in fact, you reaim, you wasted some time, and you aim at exactly same place as before.

You can still do this even with the auto re-aim function.

Offline Gabriel

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Re: WormNET Service Updates
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2021, 09:42 PM »
aren't changes supposed to be helpful? some of them are, of course, but others are just confusing

so far, i played hyst and golf, and people were:

-confused and complaining about random turn order (they didn't expect it?, not everyone uses discord maybe?)
-golf with no retreat time was a mess, people had to constantly knock others away from shooting spots

i don't really understand some of these changes, in my opinion they should be focused on fixing problems, and not changing the mechanics

i wonder how many times will people just hit themselves trying to do a full power bahaha

hysteria talk

I have always disliked notching and telecow, but do you know what? I think changes are supposed to help people in general, and not just the league players; these changes are highly oriented to avoid telecows -which are common in league games-, but most of the community doesn't actively play leagues, and telecows are self-regulated (people just don't do them, this might be biased but i haven't seen a single person do telecows in a funner in years).

Why would you make your average player play schemes based on league players preferences? I don't get it
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 09:45 PM by Gabriel »
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