w2rope scheme ***please read***

[beer]

no, im saing even if the poll has 500 yes (truth votes) to 50, it woundnt be a reason to change.. we are trying to change something that was alwys like that and evryone have enjoyed. thats the point here, u cant just change it, even if its has lots of lucky or not.. roper is roper and it has CBA, otherwise u can call it a roper.

[ShyGuy]

Call it roper, call it an alternate to roper, call it a new scheme for all I care... It is league worthy, people agree... 500-50 would be a reason to change, it is just another scheme in the league... make the the stats separate from roper... it doesn't matter... a lot of people want this scheme in the league, that's what matters

[franz]

franz, even if people need to keep their cool and composure when getting a hard crate, why should they accept a scheme that allows the game engine dictate even a single turn in the game?

because in the end the best player that game wins just about every time anyway.

I agree that it would be nice to have a roper scheme that doesn't let the game engine dictate even a single turn, so only 100% skill is involved, but what would that look like?  Would it even be fun?  Does w2rope really achieve that goal?  Isn't it still possible for one player to get extremely lucky with a crate next to him every turn of the game?  To me that still looks like the game engine dictating turns of the game.

a roper scheme truly without luck would be one without health crates entirely.  you could just go w2w every turn so that way every turn is treated equal.  would this really be fun?

[ShyGuy]

"I agree that it would be nice to have a roper scheme that doesn't let the game engine dictate even a single turn, so only 100% skill is involved, but what would that look like?  Would it even be fun?  Does w2rope really achieve that goal?  Isn't it still possible for one player to get extremely lucky with a crate next to him every turn of the game?  To me that still looks like the game engine dictating turns of the game."

check out the thread avi made a few days ago... it has a replay of him and I playing w2roper... he also wrote down the crate stats... he got like 10 impossible crates as opposed to mine 5 or something, and the game was still very close because avi used some tactics... watch the replay or something :p

"you could just go w2w every turn so that way every turn is treated equal.  would this really be fun?"

The roper scheme now is more closely related to what you described there than anything... In roper, you fetch crates, use a mine, and hide in the same hiding spots all game... really monotonous. 

The replay avi posted, we are all over the map doing tactics.. it is really interesting

[avirex]

i had 13 impossible, shyguy had 5...    franz, please watch the replay b4 u continue... and maybe try the scheme some if u have not already

[franz]

check out the thread avi made a few days ago... it has a replay of him and I playing w2roper... he also wrote down the crate stats... he got like 10 impossible crates as opposed to mine 5 or something, and the game was still very close because avi used some tactics... watch the replay or something :p

ok I watched the replay, but I can't say it was pretty.  you both had quite a few mistakes and missed opportunities.  since you guys really seem to think this replay proves something, I have to say that it actually doesn't.  If you have a replay that isn't as messy as this one, I'd like to see it, but as for this one, I'll tell you why I don't like it.

I went through each turn and I tried to keep track of all the damage lost from mistakes and missed opportunities.  I also awarded +damage when you guys attacked higher than the average 47 attack.  what did I find? 

well, in avi's post about the replay, he mentions at 8 minutes that although he had more impossible crates, he was winning 262-209.  yes, that is all true, but tallying shyguy's mistakes, I had him at -328 in lost damage vs avi's -136 in lost damage.  that's the real reason why avi was leading here.

avi also mentions at 12 minutes he had 'a wopping 9 crates that were impossible, and 1 questionable, and shy still only 2-2... yet the score was just about tied, me having 172, and shyguy having 174.'  yet again shyguy's mistakes tallied him at -334 vs avi's -199.

avi ends by saying "by the end of the game i had 13 impossible, and 1 questionable.. and shy had 5 impossible and 2 questionable, it was not until i gave myself 20 FD second to last turn, and totally blew my last turn killing myself was the game over... there were plenty of cr8s on the map for me to retreive and hide, if i had not fallen there was plenty of possibility for me to have won... therefor shy was the better skilled player of this match, cr8s had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome."

until your last turn avi, shyguy had -357 in lost damage while you had only -220.  I argue that shyguy was NOT the better skilled player of this match, and that cr8s DEFINITELY had something to do with the outcome of keeping shyguy ahead.

do you have a better replay I can check? =\

[Dub-c]

i had 13 impossible, shyguy had 5...    franz, please watch the replay b4 u continue... and maybe try the scheme some if u have not already

The scheme sucks, its not w2 sets. Needs reworked.

[TheKomodo]

because in the end the best player that game wins just about every time anyway.

I totally disagree, it's my opinion, so i'll leave it at that

[Rok]

Let me add my 2 cents.

@avirex: About the popular vote saying 'yes' - it only says so because you and shyguy agitated for it heavily and no one bothered to agitate against it. Before that the poll went in favor of 'no', remember?

You say w2 scheme eliminates crate luck. You are WRONG. Crates still affect the game in a different way. Read what franz wrote and think about it, because I couldn't agree more with him.

And before you start calling me an idiot, note that I voted yes. I think it's a nice way of playing ropes with different strategy and as far as I'm concerned it can be another scheme in the league. But your bashing of regular roper scheme is silly. People lose because of mistakes and very rarely only because of bad crates. And when it happens, you're probably playing on a fabrousse map with no hides and 1 evil crate spot  

@beer: "classic" roper will not be changed in any way. w2rope would only be another scheme in the league, with separated rating (IF it will be added, of course).

[TheKomodo]

That's weird, because i've literally seen over a thousand games at least lost because of bad crates

Note, i've been playing for over 11 years, I am NOT exaggerating the number of games i've seen lost due to bad crates.

I personally voted no, not because I don't like it or anything, it's ok, I still prefer normal roper, even with the crate rape lol, the reason I still play this game, is because I like what I am used to, and the people I play with and if everything started changing, I wouldn't feel right.

The main reason I voted no, I wouldn't mind playing this 1on1, if someone else picked it, even though I don't play TuS anymore atm, but I couldn't stand having to play this scheme in a clanner, and if it DOES get voted in, and I am asked, i'll just point blank refuse, if everyone enjoys this that's cool, but I just don't think this is a solution, but it's a good start, at least some people are actually trying to get something done about it.

The w2w without health idea would be great, if it wasn't for the, who starts 1st problem.

I personally think roper should be left the way it is, because even with this scheme, it still doesn't fully solve the problem, and from what i've witnessed, there IS still quite a bit of crate rape.

This is my opinion, and if ANYONE disagrees, don't start mouthing off, just tell me you disagree, a detailed explanation why, and we will agree to disagree, otherwise it'll be another pointless, endless arguement because EVERY single one of us here is stubborn when it comes to online arguements.

[Rok]

That's weird, because i've literally seen over a thousand games at least lost because of bad crates

Note, i've been playing for over 11 years, I am NOT exaggerating the number of games i've seen lost due to bad crates.

And you played millions of others which you won/lose because the opponent was simply better/worse.
People have a thing called selective memory. You're much more likely to remember the crate rape which cost someone a win than your own fault or an average game where there were no evil crates. The percentage of games lost only coz of bad crates is still fairly low, and that's a fact.

[TheKomodo]

And you played millions of others which you won/lose because the opponent was simply better/worse.
People have a thing called selective memory. You're much more likely to remember the crate rape which cost someone a win than your own fault or an average game where there were no evil crates. The percentage of games lost only coz of bad crates is still fairly low, and that's a fact.

Yes, of course, but still, 80% of games i've played & seen, consist of alot of hard crates, especially on ridiculous maps that alot of people host with nowadays.

To me, and I am not lying, seriously, in the last 2 years, MOST games I play in, or watch in clanners, someone gets bad crates most of the game, now i'm not saying this always results in a loss, but when it comes down to like say, you have 54hp and opponent has 20hp, his turn, his crate is RIGHT next to you, he hits you for 47, you now have 7hp left, and he has 40hp, his hide is hittable with a mine on head without a knock, but guess what, you have played better the WHOLE game, and RIGHT at the last minute, when you really should deserve the win, you get a crate at the other side of the map tucked right under, you get the crate, perfect roping even get back fast, but not fast enough to make a hit, you toss a grenade in hope of a lucky hit, you get your good hide back, next turn, he gets a crate directly above, - GG you lose cuz of crates.

I have seen this happen at least a hundred times like this, and it's happened to me alot, but whatever, it's just a game lol, hence why I BnG so much, to me it's all skill, and that's my opinion

It's quite funny though, i'll play the map, complain but not seriously complain, just mention the fact it's going to turn out that 1 player will get crate raped, and 1 player ALWAYS does.

And it's not selective memory with me, it's a fact, I actually remember the games I lose more, because i've played bad. It is just more annoying when you are the better player for THAT game, and lose because your opponent gets crates right next to them, all game, and 90% of your crates, are on the other side of the map, and tucked in right under... It happens too much either way, but then again, that's what makes the game kind of fun, the hope you get good crates, or even better, EVERYONE gets good crates, and you just play better

[avirex]

check out the thread avi made a few days ago... it has a replay of him and I playing w2roper... he also wrote down the crate stats... he got like 10 impossible crates as opposed to mine 5 or something, and the game was still very close because avi used some tactics... watch the replay or something :p

ok I watched the replay, but I can't say it was pretty.  you both had quite a few mistakes and missed opportunities.  since you guys really seem to think this replay proves something, I have to say that it actually doesn't.  If you have a replay that isn't as messy as this one, I'd like to see it, but as for this one, I'll tell you why I don't like it.

I went through each turn and I tried to keep track of all the damage lost from mistakes and missed opportunities.  I also awarded +damage when you guys attacked higher than the average 47 attack.  what did I find?  

well, in avi's post about the replay, he mentions at 8 minutes that although he had more impossible crates, he was winning 262-209.  yes, that is all true, but tallying shyguy's mistakes, I had him at -328 in lost damage vs avi's -136 in lost damage.  that's the real reason why avi was leading here.

avi also mentions at 12 minutes he had 'a wopping 9 crates that were impossible, and 1 questionable, and shy still only 2-2... yet the score was just about tied, me having 172, and shyguy having 174.'  yet again shyguy's mistakes tallied him at -334 vs avi's -199.

avi ends by saying "by the end of the game i had 13 impossible, and 1 questionable.. and shy had 5 impossible and 2 questionable, it was not until i gave myself 20 FD second to last turn, and totally blew my last turn killing myself was the game over... there were plenty of cr8s on the map for me to retreive and hide, if i had not fallen there was plenty of possibility for me to have won... therefor shy was the better skilled player of this match, cr8s had absolutely nothing to do with the outcome."

until your last turn avi, shyguy had -357 in lost damage while you had only -220.  I argue that shyguy was NOT the better skilled player of this match, and that cr8s DEFINITELY had something to do with the outcome of keeping shyguy ahead.

do you have a better replay I can check? =\

franz, its good that u actually watched the replay b4 continued... thank you, at least that's a start!!  i would ask you to also try the scheme b4 you go on any further, but that may be pushing it...


now, there is no doubt mistakes had been made... but these mistakes were not do to "you have to go after a cr8 other side of the map"   thats the point... he took risks in the game trying to get cr8 + attack when he shouldnt have.. there were time with 2 cr8s on the map, and he would only get one trying to come back for an attack, miss attack and hurt himself... to me, it was poor choice and him being an idiot... (happy everyone? i called shyguy an idiot)

however, if were able to get his cr8 and return for an attack these situations it could have created a huge advantage for himself due to his skill...  sometimes in this scheme though u need to put your skill/pride aside and just do a smart play but nope, shy was being an idiot (called him an idiot twice hahaha..)

and franz, im not saying that the scheme is perfect, or it eliminates cr8 luck, cuz there will never be way to as far as i see... but like komo said (but still does not like the scheme lol) this is a good start.. and imo a very good start...   im open to any ideas to make this scheme better. and no dub, not put dyno's in it, and destructable land, but thnx.


edit: i can also remember a time i got hit.. -47 went to the middle of the map after getting 2 cr8s... +46 so im at -1 he came and made an attack -47  so now im at -48, and because i was in the middle of the map, he only had 13 seconds to get to me, he could not get his cr8 b4 attack, and just attcked me.... and.. HO HO HO retreat only 5 seconds, he could not get it on his retreat...    and now that i was already in the middle, his hard cr8, became my easy cr8...  i was able to get his, mine, and attack... putting me up 46 so now im at -2... and him down to -47....     and thats just one strategy i can remember, we both were using different strats

Let me add my 2 cents.

@avirex: About the popular vote saying 'yes' - it only says so because you and shyguy agitated for it heavily and no one bothered to agitate against it. Before that the poll went in favor of 'no', remember?

You say w2 scheme eliminates crate luck. You are WRONG. Crates still affect the game in a different way. Read what franz wrote and think about it, because I couldn't agree more with him.

And before you start calling me an idiot, note that I voted yes. I think it's a nice way of playing ropes with different strategy and as far as I'm concerned it can be another scheme in the league. But your bashing of regular roper scheme is silly. People lose because of mistakes and very rarely only because of bad crates. And when it happens, you're probably playing on a fabrousse map with no hides and 1 evil crate spot  

@beer: "classic" roper will not be changed in any way. w2rope would only be another scheme in the league, with separated rating (IF it will be added, of course).

well rok, monkeyisland told me he also likes the idea, and voted yes... but the way i was going about it, and just complaining on forums was getting me nowhere, he told me i have to advertise the scheme, and get people to play it in AG, and let them see the scheme for what its worth, and then hopefully they change their "NO's" to "YES's" and thats what me and shy did.. we got on the grind, and yes, MANY MANY people changed their no votes to yes's... and some that had not yet voted, voted yes...   you saying we agitated it almost seems like ur accusing us of rigging it too lol...  

me and shy are nothing more then a couple of idiot (i called us both idiot!) politicians campaigning our idea!!  



edit: u say "yes its a nice way of playing ropers with a diff strategy"   where does the different come in? seriously....    what is the strategy in current ropers???   fetch ur cr8, make an attack, and hide in that very hard hide that neither of have wanted to leave all game??  is that reallly a strategy??   just sayin

[Rok]

you saying we agitated it almost seems like ur accusing us of rigging it too lol...  
me and shy are nothing more then a couple of idiot (i called us both idiot!) politicians campaigning our idea!!  

I didn't say it's wrong, I only meant that the result of the vote would probably be tighter if someone was telling people to vote 'no'. Just saying, nevermind.

edit: u say "yes its a nice way of playing ropers with a diff strategy"   where does the different come in? seriously....    what is the strategy in current ropers???   fetch ur cr8, make an attack, and hide in that very hard hide that neither of have wanted to leave all game??  is that reallly a strategy??   just sayin

Fine, I'll rephrase: It's a nice way of playing ropers with some strategy Current roper scheme is about rope skills (and cr8 luck, you'd add), I don't think whoever invented it was thinking about strategic aspects. There are some in 2v2 games nonetheless.

[franz]

To me, and I am not lying, seriously, in the last 2 years, MOST games I play in, or watch in clanners, someone gets bad crates most of the game, now i'm not saying this always results in a loss, but when it comes down to like say, you have 54hp and opponent has 20hp, his turn, his crate is RIGHT next to you, he hits you for 47, you now have 7hp left, and he has 40hp, his hide is hittable with a mine on head without a knock, but guess what, you have played better the WHOLE game, and RIGHT at the last minute, when you really should deserve the win, you get a crate at the other side of the map tucked right under, you get the crate, perfect roping even get back fast, but not fast enough to make a hit, you toss a grenade in hope of a lucky hit, you get your good hide back, next turn, he gets a crate directly above, - GG you lose cuz of crates.

that's why everyone thinks there is crate rape.  they lose on the last turn, and they blame the crate instead of them self.. but did they really play their best game the whole game?  was it 100% the game's fault?

That's weird, because i've literally seen over a thousand games at least lost because of bad crates

Note, i've been playing for over 11 years, I am NOT exaggerating the number of games i've seen lost due to bad crates.

seriously, just find one game from your recent memory even here on the tus site and show it to us.  I still stand by my quote below.

well then I still say that if you can't show a single game where someone didn't make any mistakes and still lost due to crates -> it rarely ever happens.