BnG darksiding rule and close teleport

[chakkman]

Well i see your definition and my definition of darksiding lie worlds apart... how many shots i must have tried to get a clean direct shot on you with a zook, neglecting that i would also have to wait for the perfect wind of course. There was a tiny tiny tiny little gap through which i must have shot to hit you directly. Anyway, all said from my side, i d rather have some1 external have a look on this.

[Mablak]

Darksiding has always been based on intentionally moving to a location where you can't hit your opponent. I think at some point it's been phrased 'when you can't hit your opponent and your opponent can't hit you', but the second part of that statement doesn't need to be included really, since there's no harm or annoyance to the other player if they can still hit you.

And that's the main purpose of the darksiding rule, to prevent an annoying tactic that delays the game. The rule has never been phrased exclusively in terms of your opponent being unable to hit you, because it might very well be their fault that they can't hit you. If they chose a hide with almost no angles available to them, and you move out of their reach, why should that be considered darksiding? If there is even one major problem with a rule, such as this example, it should be changed.

Alternatively, the only situation that would be a problem for Chicken's version of the rule is finding some cove on the side of the map, making a girder to hit your opponent, and being entirely unhittable without your opponent teleporting too close, but your map choice should prevent this kind of thing, as it does with those Team17-type maps. The rules are simply not very complete, and that's the only reason they're phrased as they are.

Nonetheless we're still planning on getting rid of the darksiding rule for FoW and just getting rid of girders / adding infinite teles, disallowing someone from going to a virtually unreachable spot and banking off a girder, and also allowing someone to get in prime position to take advantage of a darksiding opponent with no loss of teles to them, to name a couple reasons. Also removing the need for two rather convoluted rules about girder usage and darksiding.

[chakkman]

Why on earth would some1 choose intentionally a hide where he can't attack from? Excuse me but that makes no sense at all to me unless he wants to, as u posted, annoy his opponenty but you gain nothing from hiding in a spot you cant shoot from. Can't win a game by skipping your turns. And talking about annoyance, isn't it annoying when your opponent hides in a place where you are not able to shoot him or its v hard to attack?

Edit: Ok, i just watched the replay again, completely impossible to hit directly with a zook shot at the time you moved there, even for wormi who was nearer...

[Crazy]

Nonetheless we're still planning on getting rid of the darksiding rule for FoW and just getting rid of girders / adding infinite teles, disallowing someone from going to a virtually unreachable spot and banking off a girder, and also allowing someone to get in prime position to take advantage of a darksiding opponent with no loss of teles to them, to name a couple reasons. Also removing the need for two rather convoluted rules about girder usage and darksiding.

Mablak, you got to be joking? Is FoW still under construction?

PS: Would love to give a comment but I`m still struggling @ watching replays.

[Mablak]

You would intentionally hide in a spot where you couldn't attack from initially, so that you could attack after some tunneling; it would have to be something that gives you an advantage after one or more turns. Like on the side of a map, basically. And once again you shouldn't choose maps where incredible darksiding is even possible, that's really the only solution. The one you guys played on was fine, and Chicken was thoroughly hittable in his hide in any case.

And yeah crazy, certainly slow but still going.

[Resonance]

Mablak has really hit the nail on the head defining Darksiding.

I agree. Its stupid when i cant hit you from a hide. But i could hit you. You could not hit me easly and thats the point.

This is called using your noggin.

the rules are very subjective because players won't beleive they can hit when they can, they just dont know all the shots and its gonna cause problems.

Precisely, lack of skill/experience/vision leads to this.

Where are we coming to when people construe the rules so that they fit them the best

Both of your arguments could be interpreted in this manner. The written set of rules support your argument, this however does not represent how BnG has been played for the many many years WA has been around, and certainly not how I played it against the many skilled players of the time.

isn't it annoying when your opponent hides in a place where you are not able to shoot him or its v hard to attack?

These are the moments where you raise your game to hit your opponent.

i just watched the replay again, completely impossible to hit directly with a zook shot at the time you moved there, even for wormi who was nearer...

To re-iterate what Chicken said, someone without full knowledge of the shots they can play would come to this conclusion. I would not. In no way was Chicken unhittable or Darksiding in his position on the edge of the map. You proved this by hitting him.

I have to challenge another poor rule that's written into the BnG scheme on this site.

5 second Grenades are not allowed. 5 Second Grenades are only permitted in combination with Low Gravity and/or Maximum Bounce. The penalty for a 5 second Grenade is a Grenade or Bazooka to and from yourself in an attempt to cause the same damage you previously inflicted.

This kind of guff is bred by lack of ability. The true skill in BnG is the ability to explode a grenade on impact. Having it roll around in your opponent's face for a second or so is lame (though sometimes unavoidable, where were those half second fuse timers?) and an unnecessary overuse of fuse time. There are occasions when you might get a bounce off a lip after it passes over your opponent but this is usually intended.

There should be absolutely no restriction on the settings of the grenade as it's up to the player to decide what is required during that turn to make the grenade explode on impact of the opponent. These kind of rules dumb down BnG and I have never been a fan of this.

I wouldn't like to see Griders disappear in favour of infinite Teleports, I used to love the frustration of getting my Grider blown apart after setting it up for a bounce, and the elation of doing the same to my opponent.

[chakkman]

i just watched the replay again, completely impossible to hit directly with a zook shot at the time you moved there, even for wormi who was nearer...

To re-iterate what Chicken said, someone without full knowledge of the shots they can play would come to this conclusion. I would not. In no way was Chicken unhittable or Darksiding in his position on the edge of the map. You proved this by hitting him.

If you want to comment my posts you should at least take your time to read them properly... For the other stuff well... we didn't complain about him being darksiding, Chicken brought this thread up. My team mate asked ckc in game if that wasn't a darkside move after i have being accused of not being able to shoot properly by ckc, just wanted to make that clear as well. All in all i would say that was a lame hide and then they rly dont have to complain about lame bouncing shots when i cant hit them directly. Just wanted to make that clear too. Last word from me, this discussion kinda bores me.

[Resonance]

The topic isn't about you, it's about the rules of BnG in the league this community provides. Chicken is attempting to get them changed and used his game with you as an example of why this is required.

I have taken the time read this entire thread properly prior to posting. Your choices of shots were limited, however, you weren't entirely unable to hit Chicken. You also had the choice of hitting his team mate, moving yourself, destroying more of your hide so you had a wider angle of shots to play, the list goes on.

Nobody is forcing you to post here.

[chakkman]

Nobody is forcing you to post either, your not even personally involved . I am though as he took our clanner as an example like you said. The whole thing came up only because darksiding became a topic due to this game.

[Resonance]

i d rather have some1 external have a look on this.

I'm external.

your not even personally involved

I would disagree, BnG was a big part of my life for many years and I feel the need to preserve what was good about it, and not let it be watered down and restricted with unnecessary and incorrect rules.

[Chicken23]

So will the rule be tweaked? I think mine, mablak and reso's arguments were stronger than chakkman. What is needed a poll?

[MonkeyIsland]

Yes they will be, No need for poll.

I believe your hide wasn't darkside and chakkman proved it by hitting you there. A hide can be so hard and need a bit of 'luck' to hit, but that doesn't make it a darkside.

[Alex13]

@ point 2: thats already forbidden .

Didn't find that anywhere, can you give me a link?
P.S. lol crash

[chakkman]

The thing was discussed here: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/schemes-13/new-rules-for-bng/

Not sure now if they actually changed the rules now that way but i think so. No1 cares in league games though, just like no1 cares about darksiding as this thread shows .

[Ray]

People don't care about the scheme itself, not it's rules. I don't play the scheme since these cheap-playing people appeared in the leagues. I hate this scheme ever since.