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Too many leagues for the size of WA

Started by Chicken23, June 19, 2024, 10:22 PM

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Korydex

Quote from: TheWalrus on June 20, 2024, 04:36 PM
These posts are kinda hilarious, at worst the extra leagues are extraneous and irrelevant.  The onl players don't want to play trl, the kaos league players don't want to play tus classic, ect.  Eliminating them is not going to make these people want to play elite, bng, and ttrr.  At best there is some small activity.  Nonissue.
+100. Also after moving from classic to allround activity hasn't improved for a long time. I think the problem is that oldies are too bored and busy and newbies are not even interested. Atleast leagues are still going and we even have playoffs. Maybe someday rankings will happen again x)

Impossible

Quote from: Camper on June 20, 2024, 04:55 PM
Its a good choice.

Players from gold/main league can't play versus silver/qualification league.

this is hilarious. a topic about reducing the number of leagues ended up with the idea to add another league as a lower division xD

Camper

Quote from: Impossible on June 21, 2024, 10:34 AM
Quote from: Camper on June 20, 2024, 04:55 PM
Its a good choice.

Players from gold/main league can't play versus silver/qualification league.

this is hilarious. a topic about reducing the number of leagues ended up with the idea to add another league as a lower division xD

in my math, two is less than 3 or 4 :D

TheKomodo

I disagree with Korydex and TheWalrus.

I do not find extra leagues valueless and/or irrelevant.

They would be irrelevant if nobody was using them, anything else is delusional to deny.

nino

Well i really dunno if split the league with div1 / div2 or putos pro and putos wannabe would be good but thats something to think about cos maybe this would bring more competition specially for those who want to become on top and leave div2 to go to div1 lol well thats what i thought 20 years ago when playing div2 then became div1 and then i could hahiuahuiahiua at div2 noobs cos king!!!
You Are Losing Time Reading my Signature.

Kradie

Everyone would have to start at qualification league (QL), and get enough points to enter Pro League (PL). After X amount of days the score would just reset.

This is just a theory : The theory Is that I think some people may not feel comfortable playing schemes that are out of their comfort zones such as Kaos, Shopper, and Mole. Yes the argument by a few or many or none can go like ''Kaos? Shopper? Pfft no problem!'' But these are schemes for the new guys, to get them into the league. The new guy would not probably want to play TTRR and BnG because these are top class schemes that is out of their league, or just that they don't like them.. Although they could be encouraged to play them once they pass the QL.

I am just saying that the league should probably be tailored to the new guy not the established? Sure it has worked fine and perhaps we even got a new player now and then but was that really enough? Was that really the goal?

Hell.. Maybe just make a league just for the new guys? With the popular schemes that is hosted by HostingBuddy.. And keep everything as is for the old schoolers.  Although this new league should be more prominent and in your face when you visit TUS. Perhaps something like this could be established in TUS 2.0.

I think the ultimate problem with the current league and its configuration is convenience. Nowadays people are less Inclined to visit a site outside of WA just to report their wins. It is a cumbersome exercise for most people and as a result a turn off for plenty of new people. Of course it isn't for us who are used to this. Games like Counter Strike and Rocket League, their advantage is that the league system is built into the game. I find myself play more competitive on Rocket League (when the mood strikes) than here simply because of convenience.

In the end I do not think any changes would help but I could be wrong of course. Sure let's say we have QL and PL now. What would you do? Ask the new guy? I don't think so, sorry. My best is that you would just play with the known player or spam AG for a game. Most people in AG don't even know what TUS means. So I think if people like league, and burn for it, they should probably start playing casual games with the average guy on WA and gradually promote TUS and its league. But that's not going to happen either I guess..
Global Wormin' - A Friendly Discord Worms Server
https://discord.gg/zvFwZuAKQB

Someone is using my name on WormNET. If you are under suspicion if you aren't with the real Kradie, then pelase confirm my real ID here on TUS or discord @Kradie.

Schemes I mostly play: Big RRz and Roperz.

https://worms2d.info/People/Kradie

TheWalrus

Quote from: TheKomodo on June 21, 2024, 05:22 PM
I disagree with Korydex and TheWalrus.

I do not find extra leagues valueless and/or irrelevant.

They would be irrelevant if nobody was using them, anything else is delusional to deny.
i said "at worst, irrelevant" meaning, they dont need to be removed because some people use them.  worst case scenario no one does and it doesn't hurt anything.  you are disagreeing with the people supporting your point.  ;)

Free

Quote from: nino on June 21, 2024, 06:28 PM
Well i really dunno if split the league with div1 / div2 or putos pro and putos wannabe would be good but thats something to think about cos maybe this would bring more competition specially for those who want to become on top and leave div2 to go to div1 lol well thats what i thought 20 years ago when playing div2 then became div1 and then i could hahiuahuiahiua at div2 noobs cos king!!!

ae puto u dont even play


Chicken23

#24
ok.

I want to try and clarify what i'm saying. I wrote it on discord the other night but to go into more detail.

I believe that due to such a small player pool we are dividing all our efforts of competitive games across too many leagues, cups and tournaments. In an ideal world, EVERY competitive game of WA would go into 1 global ladder/league.

I don't know what MI has planned for TUS 3.0 but first try to imagine a system similar to this.

Instead of having TUS allround, TTL, ONL and TRL. There was one larger ladder. Opponents HAVE to agree picks before they start the first game to avoid playing a scheme your not interested in playing. I say this because there is nothing wrong with agreeing picks before the first game starts and agreeing the games you want to play. It should be encouraged to stop lame tactics of second game picks happening after game one because if you win game 1 which was your opponents pick, and then pick game 2 you are bias of trying to go 2-0 easily, but if you lost you are biased of trying to go for 1-1. This happens a lot when players don't pick before game 1 starts, this would have to be a rule that is enforced. Also this rule is good for time poor wormers because personally I would not play an opponent in the ladder who wanted to wxw or big rr. I'm time poor with WA and I only want to play schemes I enjoy. However, going back to my original vision for this ladder, just because i'm focused on a reduced number of schemes, doesn't mean those games I play can't go into an overall global ladder or ranking.


So if TUS allround, TTL, TRL and ONL are merged you have 1 global standing. There would be playoffs for EACH scheme if the criteria for those schemes were met - we can decide how many games are needed to try a scheme only playoff to occur in that scheme and how many PO spots. But lets just say  at least 20 games per player, 80 in total and 4 spots.

You then still have the allrounder playoffs for the main ladder, but players can decide to opt out of the allround playoffs if they want to. There would be an option to toggle a box if they want to opt out of playoffs. This would also be available for scheme specialist playoffs, maybe i ended up playing over 20 ropers while i was happy playing bngs, t17s and elite as i decided i was ok playing my opponents pick, (sometimes i enjoy roping!) some how i got into the roper playoffs but dibz, mablak and sock are also qualified, I opt out and give my place to someone else (this is probably rare) - Maybe Deadcode plays all his t17 games but wins everyone and has a high enough overall rank to make the allround playoffs, he's not interested because he only plays t17 and decides to opt out of the allround playoffs and a spot goes to the next seed.

This system would in theory mean that all the TRL, ONL, TTL games end up becoming apart of the main global worms ladder. We'd have to work with the league admins of ONL to agree merging into a global ladder. But in theory nothing would change as all the inter players just play inter and still get inter playoffs, but those standings might look a little different.


I also think that CUP games on tus should be added into the main ladder, you can still run a cup and have cup winners but the game gets duplicated and features into the global ladder, it still calculates points based on ratings etc. - This helps the health of the global ladder.

Playoffs could be a bit different, the games wouldn't count in the ladder because Playoffs would fall outside of it, but they should certainly effect your rating.

Advantages


  • More competitive worms games going into 1 global ladder would show more activity, this would hopefully attract more players and keep players interested. Then the same number of league games that the current community is playing would count towards the main ladder and activity would look much higher. This increase in activity may then encourage more league play and a positive snowball.
  • bigger player pool
  • No duplicating scheme ratings, instead of two t17 ranks in two leagues, all my t17 games are now 1 rating. Same with inter.
  • scheme specialists can still have their scheme specialists playoffs and championship - it might encourage more activity for a roper, bng, elite etc and new season champions in specific schemes
  • The system would encourage players doing a bit more cross play and trying other schemes and developing their skill, at their choice!
  • A flexible system where you can still play competitive worms but only take part in playoffs you were interested in
  • More recognition for most popular schemes.


Disadvantages

Potentially more moderation for playoffs - we'd need strict rules about playing games on time and moderators who are happy to remove someone who didn't show enough effort. Screenshots of direct messages and pm's with mods cc'd in are recommended to show players trying to arrange.

Some people may feel there are too many trophies to keep up with but in theory it's just the same as having a winner for ONL, TTL and TRL right?

Challenges

Finding a layout which is nice and shows allround ladder but can easily see the ladders for the other popular schemes like inter and t17

Getting ONL to stop ONL and become a part of something bigger.



Let's take some examples.

KRD only enjoys playing island t17, he can still play this scheme against opponents who also like this scheme, he has no problems finding matches. But now int he t17 ladder, the games of players like free who t17s in tus allround are also in the scheme ladder. Free might play 20 t17s over a season and he might decide to opt into the t17 playoffs, KRD makes the playoffs too, but his position in the overall ladder is just based on his t17 wins and he opts out of the allround ladder.

KRD struggles to find a game of t17, but stills someone is searching for tus. That player is a defaulter, its free. Free fancies playing elite that evening, t17 asks if he's ok doing t17 for KRDs pick. They both play and now the activity of worms is slightly increasing because all the t17 games for league are in one place.



*************


There is just all blue sky thinking but personally i think it would be a better solution to what we have now where all our ladders are separate and we are splitting limited activity across too many leagues.


TheKomodo

I think Chicken is right but I need to read it properly later I've just woke up so will double check later but I think he's right.

MonkeyIsland

#26
@Chicken23, The planned idea for the new league is more or less like your idea. We'll be having one main league supporting all schemes. This is based of what Komo/M3ntal had suggested before.

*any* scheme is playable and if that scheme gets enough activity, it will open up its own playoffs. The moderators job would be to mark very similar schemes into one "class" to avoid possible duplicates. For example marking TTRR scheme with dynamite and TTRR scheme2 with banana as same scheme for TTRR ladder.

I'll probably mark some schemes as "main" so that the new match making system has something to offer for undecided players. Not every player is picky about their scheme. Maybe even offering more points if the players allow the match making system to pick the scheme for them. (even more points if they allow it to pick the match maps)

Another idea is that each season we could hand pick the two most popular scheme played and add it to the main suggested schemes for the match making system. (and drop least favorite two from the current list)

Due to massive misunderstandings: MonkeyIsland refers to an island not a monkey. I would be a monkey, if my name was IslandMonkey meaning a monkey who is or lives on an island. MonkeyIsland is an island which is related to monkeys. Also there's been a legend around saying MonkeyIsland is a game. So please, think of me as an island or a game.


TheWalrus

Quote from: MonkeyIsland on June 23, 2024, 03:47 PM
@Chicken23, The planned idea for the new league is more or less like your idea. We'll be having one main league supporting all schemes. This is based of what Komo/M3ntal had suggested before.

*any* scheme is playable and if that scheme gets enough activity, it will open up its own playoffs. The moderators job would be to mark very similar schemes into one "class" to avoid possible duplicates. For example marking TTRR scheme with dynamite and TTRR scheme2 with banana as same scheme for TTRR ladder.

I'll probably mark some schemes as "main" so that the new match making system has something to offer for undecided players. Not every player is picky about their scheme. Maybe even offering more points if the players allow the match making system to pick the scheme for them. (even more points if they allow it to pick the match maps)

Another idea is that each season we could hand pick the two most popular scheme played and add it to the main suggested schemes for the match making system. (and drop least favorite two from the current list)
excited for this - people's choice, love it