Too many leagues for the size of WA

[Chicken23]

@MonkeyIsland

This is great to hear and I do have a few questions relating to the proposal for TUS 3.0

Timelines

When can we expect 3.0 to be launched? Is there point opening a new season of TTL or is TUS 3.0 only round the corner. I'm happy to wait for TUS 3.0 until I do singles again as this would encourage myself to be more active because i personally would search for t17s but also happy to do other defaults and would probably try to compete across multiple scheme ladders and maybe even the all round playoffs.

Scheme Variations
This concerned me as you gave an example of ttrr with banana and ttrr for dyno. Wouldn't it be best to have the core TUS schemes set which where standardised and the main scheme to use? Schemes do evolve over time but some variations can be dramatic and can argue you move away from the core scheme, imagine t17 with no griders, or t17 where you can see whats inside the cr8s, that wouldn't be t17, and a bunch of players reporting non standard schemes into the ladder seems like a recipe for diaster. I think some clear guidelines and rules around this are required.

Range Schemes
What schemes will be allowed in the global ladder? Are we talking everything? Is this the best approach because of the planned updates that Deadcode is working on? Will Free league also disappear and the ladder is across ALL schemes? Or are we just talking about classic schemes and the new popular variants like tower rr, big rr and grenade wars?

If ALL schemes are allowed, how is overall rank calculated? Its fairly straight forward to just add another rank into the algorithm that calculates overall? By adding more scheme specific ratings, does it make it harder for you to earn overall elite rating?

If there is a much bigger range of schemes, how will overall allrounder playoffs work? I'd argue that we should stick with the same classic schemes for allrounder playoffs because allowing someone to pick mole shopper or darts seems a bit weird, and they can still try and win the darts or grenade war playoffs if enough activity.

Ratings
Is there any opportunity to use a new rating system with the launch of TUS 3.0? Having seen some of the huge drops in such a small player pool, i'm not sure if the current rating system works for our activity? I could be wrong. Take me for example, my rating for TTL is quite low compared to others, but i only play the best players, i never really play others. I think it always surprises Deadcode when he faces me as my rank is much lower than his and he's built his up from playing a range of players. Yes i could try and improve my winning percentage, but i do feel I'm always playing top players. Will this issue become less of an issue because i'm finding more opponents for t17 in the new system? OR are we better off reviewing the different point rating systems of ELO, Glecko or whatever it is and finding a better version of what TUS uses now? I'd love KRD to comment here as know he has some ideas on rating schemes and what can work depending on player pools.

IF we did change anything, and when we do merge and make 1 ladder for 1 scheme - can we recalculate all the ratings and add in all the historical games to the new system?

Can playoffs and cup matches also change our rating? For example, after my t17 po victories my rating should change for the new season.

Match Making
It would be great if you could please explain how match making will work, especially if you are open to playing any scheme or not open to playing certain schemes. How does match making work when each opponent picks a scheme and when I have a right to not play big rr if i don't want to.

Free wins
We need to get out of the culture of reporting free wins and people thinking its fine to report these. People need to agree their picks before the first match begins and if you don't want to play your opponents pick before the first match begins that is fine, find another opponent or see if both players can agree something else. The only time a free win is mildly acceptable is when both picks have been agreed before the first match and second game is refused after that agreement.



There is probably more questions but it would be great to discuss the above!

ps. i don't think this should be a huge community decision as we'll never decide and agree on everything and you just have to build it and see if they come!

[MonkeyIsland]

TUS 3.0 is big. It will be released in 4-5 parts. The reason is we need a better base/core for TUS in order to pull off more advanced features.

Timelines
The first update part is just around the corner actually. I just need some free time to polish the end and release it. However the first part WILL NOT include any league updates. So if you want to go for another season of TTL until the new league system kicks in, then yes go for it.

Scheme Variations
The example about TTRR banana/dyno is different than your Team17 variations. Team17 with girders and the one where you can see the contents of crates are different schemes and won't be considered as the same scheme. In the TTRR example both banana or dyno were meant for retreat time and doesn't change the outcome of the match. By duplicate I meant two different scheme files but same outcome of the game.

Range Schemes
We will be having a set of preset/main schemes. As I said earlier, not every player insists on playing their own schemes. However *any* scheme will be allowed. At the moment if you make up a scheme, you can't report it as a league game. Your best bet is to host a cup/tournament with it. With the new system, you can play it in the leagues. If your new scheme shows to have potential, then it will reflect on the stats. It WON'T touch the preset/main schemes in the current ongoing season but:

1. If it brings enough activity, it will open up its own playoffs.
2. If its activity is high enough, in the next season it will join the preset/main schemes.

Think about it as a sports league ladder but for schemes. My idea is to advance popular schemes to preset/main schemes and relegate low activity ones from the preset/main ones. So each season we *may* see one or two new schemes join the main set and one/two drop. I'd like to mention that all leagues will be merging into one. So there will be no Free league. Only one league.

Ratings
I don't mind changing the current ELO system to a better one. If KRD or anyone else has something to propose I'm all ears. Please be clear in your proposal rather than sending me to investigate *insert name* concept on my own. I have tons on my plate and I don't want to go points-system hunting.

IF we did change anything, and when we do merge and make 1 ladder for 1 scheme - can we recalculate all the ratings and add in all the historical games to the new system?

Should we really touch history? Isn't it better to keep those history as an "era" and reset everything with the new system? Some players really worked for their statistic in the past, I don't think it would be fair to recalculate.

Can playoffs and cup matches also change our rating? For example, after my t17 po victories my rating should change for the new season.

No. I'd like to keep cups separate. We should have a separate section for members to breath. Some members are uncomfortable to take part in the main event (being leagues here) but won't mind to have a go in isolated competitions.

Match Making
I haven't done it because I was busy with the initial part of the update. So it can go however we want. My idea is to keep it simple like modern games: only one click to start searching for opponent. So the base search will look for opponents who are looking for default settings which is preset/main schemes. For players who insist of playing specific schemes, we could add some options. I'd like to encourage players to let the system pick the scheme/map for them so probably the system will reward more points if players let it to decide scheme/map for them.

Free wins
I don't like free wins myself but with the match making system, there WILL be free wins. When the match making system pairs you with some opponent, it will create a record in the database. A pending record that demands one/two matches to get played. Failing to fulfill that demand will cause a free win. The match making system also keeps track of players online status, so if one of them drops, it knows who dropped. It also keeps track of disconnection history of players. I'll be scanning all replays on TUS and get disconnection history of players.

[Sensei]

IF we did change anything, and when we do merge and make 1 ladder for 1 scheme - can we recalculate all the ratings and add in all the historical games to the new system?

Should we really touch history? Isn't it better to keep those history as an "era" and reset everything with the new system? Some players really worked for their statistic in the past, I don't think it would be fair to recalculate.

Agree. I personally decided to grind few schemes over the years and it would feel quite pointless to see all of that league work gone. Statistics are part of this site, part of the W:A history and this really shouldn't be touched. Lot more ppl accomplished lot more stuff, no reason to take this work away from anyone.

Match Making
I haven't done it because I was busy with the initial part of the update. So it can go however we want. My idea is to keep it simple like modern games: only one click to start searching for opponent. So the base search will look for opponents who are looking for default settings which is preset/main schemes. For players who insist of playing specific schemes, we could add some options. I'd like to encourage players to let the system pick the scheme/map for them so probably the system will reward more points if players let it to decide scheme/map for them.

Sounds great, sounds modern... Do it MI!


Thank you for keeping everything alive and all of us still interested! <3

[TheKomodo]

Sensei, Chicken and MonkeyIsland you absolute legends! And M3ntal, this wouldn't be possible without him!

[Sensei]

I'll teach you how to achieve that the same way I do

Thank you very much Komo, but I'll be refusing your offer and continue doing things my way. Though, I'm sure plenty of community members will be thrilled to learn from the master himself.

[FoxHound]

About the Matchmaking, what about a screen where the player has a list of schemes and he/she can check ✅ the checkboxes of the schemes this player likes to play. The system would try to find a match for this player based on the marked checkboxes of the other players. Maybe some of the checkboxes could be preset, with the main schemes, recommended for players that just want to play the most played ones and don't know the others. So, people could choose to uncheck some of the schemes preset.

When a match is found, the players won't be able to quit the match. They will have to play, otherwise the one who quit will loose points. For example if a player checked the box for T17, Hysteria and WxW and the other player for Hysteria, BnG and T17. The system could choose randomly or not T17 or Hysteria to be the scheme to be played. Or maybe the system could give players a time to decide the scheme, if the time pass, both can loose points. Or maybe players just decide one of these schemes in the lobby and the system will accept either T17 or Hysteria.

Just suggestions and thoughts. I trust Monkey Island's work. By the way yeah, history shouldn't be touched. No anachronism!

[Chicken23]

Hey @MonkeyIsland - any idea of when the next stage of TUS will happen and we can have the proposed league discussed above?

I really miss playing competitive wa in my favourite schemes but no point when the rating is divided across tus classic and TTL.

Be great if we could have the new league soon as I'd try to compete for single scheme playoffs in elite, t17 and bng, while still accepting some rope schemes and maybe play classic playoffs if I eve qualified. But could play t17 in a more active ladder than TTL

[MonkeyIsland]

Unfortunately I can't give out a date. I'm having RL problem and it has tangled my coding routine. I still code though but my timing is all messed up at the moment.

[TheWalrus]

Unfortunately I can't give out a date. I'm having RL problem and it has tangled my coding routine. I still code though but my timing is all messed up at the moment.

appreciate all your efforts, Al

[Chicken23]

Really appreciate it MI. I'm not sure if you see the potential impact this will have but it would be huge for the community as it would centralised a lot of competitive games into 1 master ladder instead of loads of micro leagues which has pretty much ruined competitive wa activity.

As ONL won't change their view point, could we also please remove intermediate from TUS so there is only 1 place to play inter in the WA community?

TUS can still be successful without it.

The whole aim of the league idea is only having 1 single rating per scheme, that should be limited to TUS but the whole wa community to help bring back some meaning.

I know I'm just speaking from my own personal wishes here but I strongly believe this would help activity across the whole community.

When for example you are able to find the time to code again and move this project forward. Could you reload all the trl and TTL, tel seasons into the master league so we all had an updated rating for our global scheme rankings?

[TheKomodo]

I absolutely hate Intermediate(as a player, but I don't even play singles anymore so who cares) but even I realize it still deserves to be here. They are different in how they are ranked so it's a different experience. Plus it's a great way for people interested in this scheme to find ONL/CWT.

Once we have the all-in-1 league it'll be great. You can play/filter any bunch of schemes you want whether it's one or 40 and see the standings. I just hope when this happens there's a complete reset of statistics.

[Chicken23]

Why reset the stats? Why not recalculate the stats based on all the tus games since the last global reset?

I disagree about inter as my vision is that there is only 1 rating per scheme. Even cwt matches would affect your rating. But the ONL guys are too stubborn to listen to any opinions; whereas MI is way more understanding and could see the logic in inter only being in 1 league. Like walrus and dibz did a bunch of inters in tus recently. Even if the game got reported in two leagues thst would be an improvement

[TheKomodo]

Why reset the stats? Why not recalculate the stats based on all the tus games since the last global reset?

It's a completely different era with a completely different system and there should be a fresh start, period.

I disagree about inter as my vision is that there is only 1 rating per scheme. Even cwt matches would affect your rating. But the ONL guys are too stubborn to listen to any opinions; whereas MI is way more understanding and could see the logic in inter only being in 1 league. Like walrus and dibz did a bunch of inters in tus recently. Even if the game got reported in two leagues thst would be an improvement

You're just as stubborn if not even more stubborn than the ONL guys, they have done absolutely nothing wrong, everything they are doing is great. They made their own thing from the ground up before TUS even existed so it's ridiculous you take it out on them or blame them for defending the thing they care about most.

I fully support the freedom that anyone can make their own league for the things they are interested in if they have the interest and participation to back it up. There are benefits to having TUS, ONL and CWT there. They all run in a different way with a different system so they are not the same thing, they are not the same quality, and they don't even all have the same participants.

Also, why in the hell would the same game get reported in 2 separate Leagues? Those 2 separate leagues exist separate for a reason, they have different systems, they are not the same thing, nobody treats them like the same thing, because again, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING... So why the f would they be treated as such?

Honestly, the day where one league has a monopoly on leagues so that no other league can exist is the day this game becomes a dictatorship and can go f@#! itself.

I'll keep my freedom, thanks.

P.S. You're a legend Tom, don't think I'm being hostile towards you, I just don't like the idea of a dictatorship/monopoly like this, that idea annoys me. The League update MI is working on is extremely flexible and people can choose what they compete in which is nice. We'd all love to see more players but banning other leagues from even existing and preventing people to have their own thing, that's just immoraly wrong.

[Chicken23]

My whole point is that the old system just doesn't work for the current size of the player base and that the overall community would benefit if we had fewer leagues and less choice. It would help us centralise all competitive games into one system and therefore increase activity. Currently the activity of competitive games is divided between multiple systems and leagues and competitions. If we had in game ranks, your rating would be global to whatver competition you played in. So to see a true reflection of who is the best in inter or team17 or whatever scheme, it would be more beneficial if all the games in that single scheme were calculated whenever it was played, regardless of in what league. Now I doubt we will get to the point where we have APIs between the league coders to do such a thing, so in my personal opinion it would be best for the community if we had few leagues. Hence the name of this thread.

No one is being forced to do anything, and it's great MI has recognised the league scheme would be improved by the proposed changes that have already been discussed. That will certainly help encourage a bit more activity.

But my point is... the community would be better off if there was just one single rating per scheme, after the updates to TUS there will still be two inter ratings. ONL or tus, would benefit from one of the other to stop so that ALL inter games were put into one ladder. So I believe TUS should drop intermediate or ONL should stop. ONL won't stop and they have ever right to continue. But TUS could easily take away inter which would benefit the community because of the limited activity we have.

Imagine we are a little village, there's 3 cinemas and they are all struggling to have enough customers. It would be better if there was just 1 cinema as it would stay in business and be more popular and more inviting to grow the village. The leagues just don't have the activity they used to have. I believe in freedom too, I'm not forcing change on anyone, I just think the community should look at this as a problem we are all in and think about what's best for everyone, instead of what's best for themselves and their little gang of 15 active players..

MIs plan is probably the last hope, well there is another but i really don't see the day of in game rankings so it's up the community to try to agree the best system.

[TheKomodo]

You're saying the community would be better off, but I don't agree with that.

What you're suggesting, maybe without even realizing it, is literally an evil dictatorship that wouldn't allow any other league//entity from having their own rules and standings for whatever reason. The only way that would happen would be to ban all other leagues from being able to exist.

That's downright evil, selfish, ridiculous and I will not support it. People should ALWAYS have the choice of being involved in multiple different leagues with different rulesets and communities if they desire.

Having only one place to play any scheme isn't going to change anything anyway, it's not going to magically make thousands of players appear out of thin air. It's not creating any incentive whatsoever.