Current status of the League

[TheWalrus]

I wouldn't be worried about the system not giving enough incentive to play. 1) there's a minimum game limit that can be adjusted 2) there's a limited number of PO spots 3) top seeded players get probably an easier opponent 4) the higher ranked player has still the advantage of choosing 3 schemes, he just can't pick the same scheme type 3 times.

1.)  Minimum game limit was already adjusted, its 30 currently, makes sense since there is less activity

2.)  I don't think the playoff spots can be considered "limited", when total league activity amounts to 14 'active' players (more than 5 GP) fighting for 8 playoff spots.  In fact I would say that there was never a time in TUS allround/classic league where getting to PO's is any easier than it is now.  I actually laughed at the whole 'limited' thing a few times, the more I think about it the more I realize it is laughably the polar opposite. 

3.)  Top seeded players traditionally got an easier opponent, but that hasn't been true with diminished activity.  Seeding becomes more accurate with more games played, which isn't happening atm.  Top seeded players 1-4 should play a weaker opponent in theory, but in practice its different.  Last 2 allround PO's I was seed #1 and #4, respectively, and I got first round matchups of Daina, and Daina again.  Anecdotal, yes, but hardly a seeding advantage at present.

4.)  The larger issue you are missing is that if a player that isn't good at a particular scheme set, and has seed advantage, his final pick will be for the opponent, essentially.  They will be forced to pick a scheme in the deciding match that more or less, the opponent will have the advantage, unless they picked their worst scheme set first, which doesn't make any sense unto itself either.  Who wants to pick something they are shit at in the deciding game of a Bo5?

Again, these new rules are catering to the elite level allround players and risks alienating the playerbase which already isn't playing TUS.  One or two scheme specialists should be able to be competitive in this league, and be able to choose the schemes they are good at.  Players like xrayez, sensei, fad; many good players who might otherwise be interested would likely be turned off by this new system.  Also, non rope default players would be forced to choose rope for their last pick.  Hardly makes for an exciting, competitive Bo5.

I really don't like this idea, it makes sense in that if everyone loved allround and played all the schemes equally it makes for a greater competitive challenge.  But allround isn't being played as much, and the only new players TUS has gotten to the league are usually specialists who play one or two schemes in allround, not all of them.  There is close to zero new players who play all the schemes in allround over the past few years that have stuck around.  Feel free to give me an example if im wrong, but I see mostly old players coming back spiking the activity on a season to season basis.  The only goal of this league should be to gain new players, and elitist ideas like this are being proposed that only really satisfy who?  A few of the players what have been active that will be active regardless?  I don't get it.

[Senator]

if a player that isn't good at a particular scheme set, and has seed advantage, his final pick will be for the opponent, essentially.  They will be forced to pick a scheme in the deciding match that more or less, the opponent will have the advantage, unless they picked their worst scheme set first, which doesn't make any sense unto itself either.  Who wants to pick something they are shit at in the deciding game of a Bo5?

If you can only bng while your opponent is good at both roping and strategic schemes, then yes. We want that the best all-arounder wins the all-around league, don't we? What's the point in winning the title when everyone knows that it happened only because the system was flawed? You get no bragging rights.

Some of the schemes in different classes have some similarities. If you can only rope, you can pick Shopper as your 2nd pick and then a real rope scheme again as 3rd. If you can only bng, you can pick Elite. If you can only play strategic schemes, you can pick Aerial. You may need to leave your comfort zone but not be totally screwed.

Also, non rope default players would be forced to choose rope for their last pick. Hardly makes for an exciting, competitive Bo5.

You mean when you pick 2 x strategic scheme and your opponent picks 2 x artillery scheme? Playing 1 rope scheme out of 5 shouldn't be a big deal. When you play someone who can rope, you are forced to play a rope scheme twice.

the only new players TUS has gotten to the league are usually specialists who play one or two schemes in allround, not all of them.

These new players who play one or two schemes are not even close to getting in playoffs so...

This is about having a league that makes sense and where winning the title actually means something. Having such a league can boost activity. For scheme specialists we do have Default and Rope playoffs. There's no need to let a scheme specialist win the all-around league title and then pretend that he was the best all-arounder.

[TheKomodo]

These new players who play one or two schemes are not even close to getting in playoffs so...

Nope, when I 1st started playing TUS, all I ever picked was BnG, and I made the Playoffs, of course I opted out of them because I wasn't interested.

It's a tricky situation this by the way, I totally side with Senator in terms of making the picks reflect all-round skill seeing as it is an all-round league, but... We honestly don't have a big enough player base for that and agree with walrus when he says it's alienating players who don't care about all-round skills...

With the amount of players actively playing now, you could pretty much go straight to playoffs anyway lol.

[Chicken23]

Whats wrong with letting highest seed pick first, bo5 and all schemes in tus classic are available? I'd say the only schemes that should be grouped where you can't pick one if the other gets played would be big rr and ttrr? You could potentially pair hysteria and ariel but i know some new guys may feel they are very different?

I don't think we have an active enough league and player base to split hairs on this matter for the time being?

[sock]

The highest seed in each bracket traditionally goes against the lowest ranked seed.

[Senator]

Playoffs certainly need some review of the rules.

Whats wrong with letting highest seed pick first, bo5 and all schemes in tus classic are available?

I don't agree with the view that this rule would alienate non all-arounders. Firstly, a scheme specialist has a fair chance in Shopper/Elite/Aerial as I mentioned earlier. Secondly, this rule will more likely help scheme specialists because the opponent can't pick 3 x your biggest weakness. Players who play all the schemes are usually ranked higher and have the advantage of picking first.

[Chicken23]

Playoffs certainly need some review of the rules.

Whats wrong with letting highest seed pick first, bo5 and all schemes in tus classic are available?

I don't agree with the view that this rule would alienate non all-arounders. Firstly, a scheme specialist has a fair chance in Shopper/Elite/Aerial as I mentioned earlier. Secondly, this rule will more likely help scheme specialists because the opponent can't pick 3 x your biggest weakness. Players who play all the schemes are usually ranked higher and have the advantage of picking first.

I'm not sure exactly what we are debating as i can't remember previous PO rules. Please remind me

Then once remembering these rules, can think how they work with the new additional schemes.


Didn't we used to say no more than 3 roper schemes and wxw and shopper were in same group, if you picked shopper your opponent couldn't pick wxw? Or was that another league?

[Senator]

Ah now I understand Currently there are no rules at all. You can pick anything.

Shopper and WxW used to have a shared rating but they got separated in 2009. As WxW maps evolved, it was later grouped with Roper in "Allround league". There was a poll between two scheme class options and the one with Roper/WxW won over WxW/Shopper (see the picture below).

There was also a rule about scheme picks in playoffs but it was removed in 2011 I think.

In the Classic League, the first four games must include two rope based schemes (Rope Race, Roper, WxW/Shopper) and two normal schemes (BnG, Team17, Elite, Hysteria). The last game is picked by the higher ranked player and can be any of these schemes.

That rule was quite useless anyway. You could just pick WxW first and then TTRR + Roper.

[Chicken23]

Ah now I understand Currently there are no rules at all. You can pick anything.

Shopper and WxW used to have a shared rating but they got separated in 2009. As WxW maps evolved, it was later grouped with Roper in "Allround league". There was a poll between two scheme class options and the one with Roper/WxW won over WxW/Shopper (see the picture below).

There was also a rule about scheme picks in playoffs but it was removed in 2011 I think.

In the Classic League, the first four games must include two rope based schemes (Rope Race, Roper, WxW/Shopper) and two normal schemes (BnG, Team17, Elite, Hysteria). The last game is picked by the higher ranked player and can be any of these schemes.

That rule was quite useless anyway. You could just pick WxW first and then TTRR + Roper.

And whats your suggestion? What is the problem with the above? If highest seed player picks and has advantage to select 3 rope based schemes.. thats fair because they are the highest seeded player right?

[Chicken23]

Just changing the topic slightly.

The current system requirements at the mid way point have pretty much given us POs for tus singles. we have 30 days for 1 more active person to get a 50% winning ratio.

What about clanners?! i'm seeing some games being played...

[TheWalrus]

Just changing the topic slightly.

The current system requirements at the mid way point have pretty much given us POs for tus singles. we have 30 days for 1 more active person to get a 50% winning ratio.

What about clanners?! i'm seeing some games being played...

I think 50% win ratio should be waived with this few people in the league.  There isn't a big pool of people and there is deserving players like chicken23 and oldsock that would be otherwise penalized for playing an inordinate amount of games against the top players in the league. 

50% win ratio is pointless with the current ELO system tus uses, the points already balance out the good players from the bad players.

[Senator]

And whats your suggestion? What is the problem with the above? If highest seed player picks and has advantage to select 3 rope based schemes.. thats fair because they are the highest seeded player right?

It might be fair but it's against the idea of an all-around league.

Playoffs should represent the league in miniature and tell which player masters a set of different kind of schemes the best. We can accomplish that by having every scheme type played in a PO series.

Players can pick
2 of BnG, Hysteria, Aerial
2 of Elite, Intermediate, Team17, Shopper
2 of TTRR, Roper, WxW, Big RR

For example, if you pick Elite and your opponent picks Shopper, you can't pick Intermediate or Team17 anymore.

We have roughly 3 different scheme types in the league - roping, artillery and strategic. "Max 2 picks per scheme type" makes sure that all the scheme types get played. To win a PO series, you need to show all-around skills and beat the opponent at least in 2 different scheme types. The higher ranked player would still have an advantage but not as huge as currently.

[Chicken23]

Players can pick
2 of BnG, Hysteria, Aerial
2 of Elite, Intermediate, Team17, Shopper
2 of TTRR, Roper, WxW, Big RR

For example, if you pick Elite and your opponent picks Shopper, you can't pick Intermediate or Team17 anymore.

I think it has to either be this system you propose.. or first seed picks first and bo5 out of all available schemes.

My only disagreement with your scheme pool is that shopper isn't anywhere near as strategic as elite, inter and t17. Shopper is a rope based scheme in my opinion that requires pure consistency and attacking every turn with knowledge of a mix of weapons to win. Against a good shopper player you both players never miss a turn.. also shopper shouldn't have unlimited zooks and should no bullshit cr8s like fp or db..

however, a lot of strong ropers would hate that because a good default player could pick shopper on purpose to use up a 'rope based' pick and stop opponent picking wxw, rr and roper..

thats actually what i used to do in single playoffs in some leagues!