Leagues
April 27, 2024, 07:53 AM

Game #240517, reported by Sensei, Viewed 307 Time(s)

Default #29, Allround #28
Singles
February 09, 2024, 12:39 AM
Winner
Sensei
Croatia HCP alCo
Novice 1324 in BnG before the game. Gained 33|29 points more
Loser
KoreanRedDragon
Slovenia SfX REM b2b
Beginner 1079 in BnG before the game. Lost 25|29 points more
  

Information Game scheme: BnG
Scheme pick: Winner's pick
Watch The Game Replay(s):
Downloaded 26 time(s).
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Game Map(s)

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Game Chat(s)
[NogardDerNaerok] H'funs.
[Sensei`hcp] aaah no left :(
[Sensei`hcp] hf
[NogardDerNaerok] I wasn't really sure.
[NogardDerNaerok] Seems like more terrain on the right.
[Sensei`hcp] i don't even look at hides.. just go left whenever i can choose
[NogardDerNaerok] Way too hard.
[NogardDerNaerok] That's funny.
[NogardDerNaerok] I'm pretty sure I prefer left too.
[NogardDerNaerok] But never figured out why.
[Sensei`hcp] ok, first game in 10 days.. gimme few mins haha
[Sensei`hcp] ljubljana was nice!
[NogardDerNaerok] Dammit.
[Sensei`hcp] nt
[NogardDerNaerok] Glad you enjoyed it!
[NogardDerNaerok] How many of you were there?
[NogardDerNaerok] Ow, nice.
[Sensei`hcp] just me and 1 female
[NogardDerNaerok] Spicy.
[Sensei`hcp] close!
[NogardDerNaerok] You stayed for two days total?
[NogardDerNaerok] Augh, got me.
[Sensei`hcp] it was just 1 day trip
[NogardDerNaerok] Ah, got it.
[Sensei`hcp] too bad we didn't meet for a beer. next time
[NogardDerNaerok] Yeah, next time.
[NogardDerNaerok] I'm still not feeling great. This virus or whatever has been awful.
[NogardDerNaerok] Damn, nice.
[Sensei`hcp] thx!
[Sensei`hcp] was it corona maybe?
[NogardDerNaerok] I don't think so, my test was negative.
[NogardDerNaerok] But I guess there's a bunch of variants out there now.
[NogardDerNaerok] Phew.
[Sensei`hcp] damn
[Sensei`hcp] Yeah, that did last a long time. Good it's gone now
[Sensei`hcp] nt
[NogardDerNaerok] 5 secs near-sitter and it's there!
[Sensei`hcp] lol
[NogardDerNaerok] Well, maybe not...
[Sensei`hcp] always like these tries
[NogardDerNaerok] You're hide's so beefy.
[NogardDerNaerok] I should have hit and pushed you early.
[NogardDerNaerok] That was the whole game plan.
[Sensei`hcp] i'd go for 5s lg if i were you
[NogardDerNaerok] I tried.
[NogardDerNaerok] Uh oh.
[Sensei`hcp] i never played on bng that looks like this.. Your hide is totally unnatural to judge the fuse, since you're way down haha
[Sensei`hcp] can't say this map is not nice, though.
[Sensei`hcp] challenging!
[NogardDerNaerok] That's the idea!
[NogardDerNaerok] Phew, close.
[Sensei`hcp] time to hit!
[NogardDerNaerok] I really, really hated how BnG became such a notchfest.
[NogardDerNaerok] On the flat maps.
[NogardDerNaerok] But then I hated it even more than no league could figure out that all they needed to fix it was to not allow the flat maps.
[NogardDerNaerok] Okay, let's try this...
[NogardDerNaerok] Crap.
[NogardDerNaerok] Wow.
[NogardDerNaerok] Perfect.
[Sensei`hcp] yeah, after doing some league matches.. you notice that people start using lame tactics just to get points.. when they're behind they'll notch every shot to get you.. if they don't know how to notch they'll start rolling and full powering
[Sensei`hcp] thx!
[Sensei`hcp] anyway.. bng on tus is interesting, until one point.. and then you go on hiatus for couple of years..
[NogardDerNaerok] Well, rolling and full powering I'm totally fine with. But that too is solved by better maps.
[NogardDerNaerok] Just, maybe we'd need a new map format first, with new map shapes (and maybe sizes) before that would be easy.
[NogardDerNaerok] Ow.
[NogardDerNaerok] Maybe a different way for the objects to spawn. But that's a whole big discussion.
[Sensei`hcp] map isn't the problem imo.. Rules are, atm. A2B league had much strict and lot more competitive rules than TUS
[NogardDerNaerok] Meh, I didn't like those rules either.,
[Sensei`hcp] MI should really think about applying them for starters..
[NogardDerNaerok] You could still do all the "bad" things there.
[Sensei`hcp] And then we can talk into the details about maps etc
[NogardDerNaerok] I think maps just solve it a lot more elegantly.
[NogardDerNaerok] And then if we see that the scheme still needs fixing, loot at rules.
[NogardDerNaerok] Jeez.
[Sensei`hcp] damn, unlucky
[NogardDerNaerok] Look at rules, rather.
[NogardDerNaerok] Cold fingers, can't type.
[Sensei`hcp] i really like you not trying to roll a 4s there whole game. Respect :)
[NogardDerNaerok] There wasn't a good one!
[NogardDerNaerok] I do find that's quite often the case, btw.
[NogardDerNaerok] Dayum.
[NogardDerNaerok] Where to hide, where to hide...
[Sensei`hcp] I'll find you KRD!!!
[NogardDerNaerok] There.
[NogardDerNaerok] You'll never find me there.
[NogardDerNaerok] Yessss.
[NogardDerNaerok] Could work.
[Sensei`hcp] after this we could do some non-league aerial if you'd want
[Sensei`hcp] you might like it if you didn't play
[NogardDerNaerok] We should do another one of these first. :D
[NogardDerNaerok] So I can get a hit in.
[Sensei`hcp] lol!
[Sensei`hcp] daamn
[NogardDerNaerok] !!
[Sensei`hcp] thought so
[NogardDerNaerok] No way!
[Sensei`hcp] i'll do 2 more tries!
[Sensei`hcp] if you don't push me
[NogardDerNaerok] Push!
[Sensei`hcp] -.-
[Sensei`hcp] nice one!
[NogardDerNaerok] Good timing too, with the wind.
[NogardDerNaerok] Ah, no way that works.
[Sensei`hcp] yeeeah.. need like 9sec nade :)
[Sensei`hcp] almost
[NogardDerNaerok] Diggin'.
[NogardDerNaerok] Huh, that was weird.
NogardDerNaerok ducks.
[Sensei`hcp] lol
[NogardDerNaerok] ÆÈFDlgg.
[NogardDerNaerok] Alright, die.
[NogardDerNaerok] Oh no.
[NogardDerNaerok] So much phew.
[Sensei`hcp] thought that's on point
[NogardDerNaerok] Stop getting nice wind.
[NogardDerNaerok] Phew.
[Sensei`hcp] haha
[Sensei`hcp] I'll lg every into nowhere, don't worry.
[Sensei`hcp] hmm i can 3s
[NogardDerNaerok] Stahp!
[Sensei`hcp] asdfasopifjasdpo
[NogardDerNaerok] They're kinda close.
[NogardDerNaerok] I can't hit my power.
[Sensei`hcp] that's not even gonna be close, even if i hit that part
[Sensei`hcp] nvm, gonna 3!
[Sensei`hcp] clooose
[NogardDerNaerok] Bring it.
[Sensei`hcp] knew it's a notch upwards!
[NogardDerNaerok] If only I'd ralised this worked earlier...
[NogardDerNaerok] There.
[Sensei`hcp] awesome!
[NogardDerNaerok] Hooray.
[NogardDerNaerok] Now the real work begins.
[Sensei`hcp] let's go
[NogardDerNaerok] Gonna need more tea.
[NogardDerNaerok] Digdigdig.
[Sensei`hcp] uuuh nice !
[NogardDerNaerok] I don't think that can ever plop you.
[NogardDerNaerok] But it's nice to dream.
[NogardDerNaerok] If only I were there.
[Sensei`hcp] i can get plopped!
[Sensei`hcp] easily with nade!
[Sensei`hcp] huuuh
[NogardDerNaerok] Oh yeah, with nade sure.
[NogardDerNaerok] Oh god.
[Sensei`hcp] !
[NogardDerNaerok] I'm ded.
[Sensei`hcp] haha
[NogardDerNaerok] G'game. :D
[Sensei`hcp] almost plop
[Sensei`hcp] gg man!

Author Topic: Game #240517, reported by Sensei  (Read 313 times)

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Offline TheKomodo

Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« on: February 09, 2024, 01:31 AM »
Nice to see KRD doing TUS BnG! 8)

[NogardDerNaerok] I really, really hated how BnG became such a notchfest.
[NogardDerNaerok] On the flat maps.
[NogardDerNaerok] But then I hated it even more than no league could figure out that all they needed to fix it was to not allow the flat maps.

That's funny because the same shots work on any style of map lol. I've thought about this a lot, obviously who would have guessed lol.

As in, what you call a "notchfest" will happen on any kind of BnG map because it's the player you're up against that does it, not the map.

(You've seen my shot on my Twitch channel right? When someone follows?)

Watch at 3:17 - Apparently this forum doesn't work with timecode urls from YT:



That's BnG in an elite map, that one was counted out, that's what notchers can do on the maps you think are more against it lol.

No map is entirely flat because every map adapts as the match goes on.

I've seen maps like this become flat within 10 minutes depending how accurate players are and where they hide.

I've seen -forest maps which you consider flat ending up with massive differences in height by the end of the match.

It's possible to make good BnG maps with any terrain, the main reason -forest became so popular is because it's the easiest and fastest to make a BnG map with good hides on both sides. Many of the other terrains need more tweaking, or more luck with reseeding.

I'm surprised to hear that from KRD though, the physics of BnG doesn't change on different map types, people who calculate their shots with rulers and counting out notches will still do the exact same thing on other maps, and they have!

In fact, you'd be at an even larger disadavantage against those players on this map specifically because it's more unfamiliar to you playing with instinct, as opposed to them, who from the very start know where to teleport to hit wherever you are.

Unless, you're at the level of BnG that exceeds what's possible with players who can't play instinctually at all and rely on "notching/counting/math".

It's also smoother, which makes it more predictable to play on as regards to bounces banks and transfers. That's why -forest is a more popular choice as it's more challenging to play on for TUS rules where you can't expect people to play a2b style.

You can also just test this for yourself it only takes 5-10 minutes playing a few games offline with sdet on to realize, if you're accurate enough with rollers.

There's just more jagged parts and pixels on grassy terrains, especially -forest.

Fruit is considered the 2nd most popular as well, I guess because it has those rough green top parts of the fruit which are good for cover and make it more challenging to bounce on, and like -forest it has a really good object spread to produce nice maps with little effort, with a flat surface or very squiggly surface.





Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2024, 01:54 AM »
Oh, I didn't really mean the top 1% of the top 1% of BnG players who can just notch any shot on any map there; those deserve to win everything anyway, they've put in the effort! My issue isn't even with notching play styles winning more often than they "should" or anything like that, it's just the lack of variety when the game is played that way by players who know only a few of the shots, and only ever go for those. And then the obvious counter is to try and roller them from insanely tight hides, knowing their attempts at the notched shots aren't going to dig to you. Just makes it so every league BnG I watch plays out the same way. Meh.

Sure, playing on maps that are squiggly and have relevant height differences and lots of different types of hides (some with overhangs above them) at the start of the match already isn't perfect in every way either. Sometimes you do run out of hides, but I'm totally okay with that being an option. And you're right, any type of map develops over the course of a match too, including in terms of height differences. Still, it's just really obvious to me that literally all of the common complaints regarding the scheme are at least partially resolved by playing on these (OBJECTIVELY, FITE ME) more interesting maps. They have more room to develop into more different endgames, and the early push gambles feel more strategic on them because unlike on the flat -Forest maps, at least you often get the choice between hides that are more or less vulnerable to pushing. Again, not perfect. But I think genuinely an improvement, and that's the thing that makes me sad, so many other people who would potentially be interested in really getting into the scheme... just not really seeing it. And then choosing instead not to get into BnG at all. Agh.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 02:01 AM by KoreanRedDragon »

Offline TheKomodo

Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2024, 02:11 AM »
Just makes it so every league BnG I watch plays out the same way. Meh.

Can you elaborate on this? Can you give me specific examples?


Still, it's just really obvious to me that literally all of the common complaints regarding the scheme are at least partially resolved by playing on these (OBJECTIVELY, FITE ME) more interesting maps.

Well, that's specifically why I avoid the kind of maps you play because to me they are too easy to win from a strictly playing to win perspective.

Though, what's more interesting is definitely subjective to each person and you know it! :D

They have more room to develop into more different endgames, and the early push gambles feel more strategic on them because unlike on the flat -Forest maps, at least you often get the choice between hides that are more or less vulnerable to pushing. Again, not perfect. But I think genuinely an improvement, and that's the thing that makes me sad, so many other people who would potentially be interested in really getting into the scheme... just not really seeing it. And then choosing not to get into BnG. Agh.

I mean, they literally don't when you delete 20% of the map underneath lol. :P

It also really does depend who you're playing against though.

The better player you play against, there's no such thing as an endgame because the game would be over within 10-15 minutes max.

The point I'm trying to make anyway, BnG is kind of like high school, there are different groups, notchers, tricksters, league players, casuals, hardcore ftw, forced.

Forced means they only play it if someone else picks it.

Anyway, depending on who you play is the kind of experience you'll get, regardless of what map you play. You could play on cavern and probably get the same thing lol.

You put too much blame on maps, you always have, when all along it's always been the type of player not the type of map.

Offline TheWalrus

Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2024, 05:26 AM »
theres not many people that complain about the nature of BnG, just those that dislike the scheme

KRD stuck in 2011 I think lol, which i can understand

No one really notches anymore, at least no active players I know of

Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2024, 10:53 PM »
Well yeah, 'cause everyone who would actually play BnG to win has stopped playing it, for exactly these reasons, i.e. because they thought the scheme didn't really have the potential for true competitive play. But I maintain that they're wrong to think so! If that's a 2011 world view, it's because nothing any league has tried since then has helped reverse the scheme being seen in this way, as essentially unworthy of playing unless it's among friends, all cuddly wuddly.

But so anyway, now instead we just have us old farts enjoying gentlemanly BnG where we specifically avoid going for the shot we think is most likely to hit like 80% of the time, with maaaybe two or three exceptions at any one time of players who do play to win, then get shit for it behind their backs, instead of respect for taking the game seriously like they would with every other scheme. That's the thing that ultimately needs fixing, but of course it's hard because the mentality is so deeply ingrained.

I have kinda given up on these discussions regarding BnG in particular, though, to be frank. I'll still happily explain my views when people go out of their way to ask me, but it's been basically 10 years now since I've recognised that proselytising my ideas for how to fix the scheme isn't ever going to change enough minds to have any real, lasting effect. Maybe once we start looking into new ways for the game to generate random maps, shape and size wise. Or in terms of object seeding as well, hmmm. Maybe that's when it'll become easier to see just how much effect map choice has on BnG, but again, clearly the divide between how I see this and how most of you guys do is still significant. That's no reason not to get some games in, though!

Offline Sbaffo

Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2024, 11:08 PM »
Wow is this a walls of text war

Offline TheKomodo

Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2024, 11:09 PM »
Wow is this a walls of text war

Yep and your little comments are the cement inbetween the bricks lol.

Offline Sbaffo

Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2024, 11:11 PM »
Nah im more like the city pidgeon that shits on it and then flies away

Offline TheKomodo

Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2024, 11:12 PM »
Nah im more like the city pidgeon that shits on it and then flies away

Nice of you to acknowledge that all you contribute is shit. :D

Offline Sbaffo

Re: Game #240517, reported by Sensei
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2024, 11:39 PM »
You’re welcome