Are you going to try to fix the problem or perhaps read any of the 20 times I mentioned randomsteria, ShyGuy?
You just posted a post that would put Komo to shame and did nothing but reiterate what problem you have. We get it. The sooner you realise we are actually making propositions in this very thread for at least 10 pages, the sooner things can actually change.

Or did you just propose putting aerial in the classic league? Bit too drastic if you ask me.

Some people still don't believe anything is wrong with hysteria as Komo just proved with his last post.

I used to be in favor of randomsteria, DarkOne, but the more I think about it, the less I like it.  I don't want to completely remove rotation advantage from the game, just make it more risk for the reward.  I don't like the idea of random turn order because:
1. You can still try rotation rape, which is good; however, you'd be relying on the random turn order for whether or not it will work out... You can't control the random turn order, so I don't like the idea of being countered or allowed a certain strat based off of a random factor you can't control, do you understand what I'm saying?  If I decide to telepile, the risk does go up because of random turn order, but if it does thwart me, it's not like the enemy team did anything to counter me, they just got fortunate with the turn order... there was no special move or skill they had to do, the turn order just happened to be in their favor. I hope I'm explaining this well enough. 
2. Random turn order makes it harder for you to organize moves within your own team because you don't know the order of your own team.  If you're setting stuff up, it's highly reliant on getting a good turn order.  It would be interesting if you could see your turn order but the enemy can't, but that's a discussion for another day.


Adding random turn order still doesn't fix the fundamental problem with hysteria, which is the 1 second turn time that breaks the scheme and allows for abuse in the scheme.  It's the 1 second turn time that makes the game design goals of hysteria not work.  So yes, Darkone, like I've pushed for before, I would like to see a 3 second hysteria variant like Aerial to replace the scheme.

You say it comes down to a 1v1 sillyfest? I've seen Elites come down to 1v1 fest waiting for opponent to make a mistake or manage to get a "lucky" grenade in or something. T17 comes down to 1v1 and "let's hope we get SD weapon in a crate", but same as Hysteria, waiting for opponent to make a mistake, or go for the shot if you have a chance.

Why does it matter how many different strategies there are available for a scheme? There is only 1 for TTRR - Finish faster than your opponent. There is only 1 for BnG - Kill your opponent before he kills you, there isn't anything special you can do in those schemes, so why is this such a problem? If those schemes only have 1 strategy, and they are both highly competitive and skilled, so is Hysteria. The same logic of a "lucky shot" can win a BnG or an Elite or a T17, or even a Shopper or a WxW if it manages to plop or put on a mine by accident... These are acceptable, why not Hysteria?

The fact that you're now placing my argument for other schemes shows you just don't understand or comprehend what I'm talking about.  I specifically said why the game mechanics of HYSTERIA run contrary to the game design goals of HYSTERIA.  My points will then obviously not apply to the other schemes. 

hysteria is supposed to be a default schemes where you use a variety of weapons in a strategic manner to kill the enemy worms and win the game.  These goals aren't met currently.
ttrr is supposed to show pure skill and demonstrate who the faster roper is.  The goals of that scheme are currently met. 

I'm not going to explain the differences between hysteria and every scheme, you should be able to figure it out.. i'm tired of typing long ass explanations just for you

My argument has always been early game and mid game in hysteria is absolutely meaningless... The last time there was a big hysteria thread, I told people to look at Komo's recent hysteria replays, and my point was proven... No matter what you do early and mid game, you gain very little, if not any, advantage... doesn't that seem whack for a scheme that's supposed to be "strategic" and "skillful?"  Look at the majority of hysteria games, it's almost always a 1v1... For a scheme where the goal is to KILL the enemy team's worms, how come in hysteria there's no benefit and sometimes a disadvantage to killing the first 3 worms?  There's no advantage to killing your opponents worms... in a scheme where the goal is to kill your opponents worms. 

My other point from the old hysteria thread - the 1 second turn time highly limits creativity and move choice... there's only so much you can do in 1 second, which is why the game usually turns into a 1v1 bng fest because what else are you going to do? The 1 second turn time also restricts you from protecting your own worms, which is why rotation rape can be abused...

The scheme basically forces behavior and limits creativity... if it didn't, why do so many hysterias play out the same way?? Answer me that.  Think about it.  If your opponent kills his own worm, it's now 3v4... Here are your options:
1. You can kill one of your own worms next time to prevent him from dealing mass amounts of damage over a course of turns through rotation rape. 
2. You can try to move all your worms close together for protection, although mathematically if he were to still pile you, he'd come out on top in terms of damage dealt.
3. You can choose to just go with the flow and not really make any counter move, but if you do this, you'll get rotation raped.

Those are your three options; of course very special and unique options may arise occasionally.  But look, the enemy lost a worm, the goal is to eliminate all his worms, so how come something that's supposed to build towards a goal just creates a disadvantage for yourself?

Let's look at option 3.  When playing hysteria casually, this is the option most people take, and that's why hysteria being played more casually and for fun would be a better place for it. As soon as a worm dies, you don't see people starting to knock their own worms off or pile close in one little area of the map for the entire game... they just stay put and try to do fun stuff.  The scheme doesn't force your behavior when you play it casually with nothing at stake.

Bottom line: When you're playing hysteria as a high stakes games, everyone's moves are forced because of they don't react in the traditional way, they are just going to take tons of damage and lose.  DO NOT MISTAKE THIS AS BEING A TACTICAL ASPECT OF THE GAME.  Remember, an enemy worm died (an event that is supposed to push you to victory because it works towards the goal of killing all their worms) but it forces your hand, if not you get raped... that's a clear sign of a broken scheme, I don't know how much clearer it can get.

Think about it like you were just creating the hysteria scheme.  What are your goals for a scheme that has 1 second turn time?  Why is it called hysteria? The goals are to kill all the enemy team worms, it's called hysteria because it's supposed to be hectic and crazy because you only have 1 second to attack... does anyone dispute that?  The goal is to kill enemy worms, but there's no incentive to actually do that; it's called hysteria because it's supposed to be crazy, but all the games play out the same way, with the exact couple of tactics used every time with no creativity or thought... The goals of the scheme have not been met, IT'S NOT WORTHY OF BEING PLAYED COMPETITIVELY... Take worms and hysteria out of the picture and just look at game design philosophically - Your game goals you had in mind are not being met and/or are being met with negative, unintentional repercussions.

Yes, it's true that hysteria has some strategy; HOWEVER, it's a problem when you HAVE to use the SAME strategy every time or else you'll simply lose.  It leaves no room for variety, and I don't know how anyone can argue this - the proof is in thousands of hysteria replays where the same shit happens every game.

It basically boils down to a 1v1 pussy fest where you can win simply by a fluke lucky shot; after all, you only get 1 second to aim, a lot of the times it's going to be a luckyshotGG nade or petrol that wins you the game... don't deny it, it's happened to damn near everyone probably more than once... is that what we really want as a competitive league scheme? Because to me, that sounds very uncreative, very low skill cap, boring, and unreliable to determine who is best at the game.  A scheme like Aerial (a balanced Aerial scheme), which I believe had the same intended game design goals as hysteria, is a much better demonstrator of a scheme that fixes everything wrong with competitive hysteria and turns it into a dynamic, strategic, and skillful scheme worthy of the classic league.


.

Ok for starters shy, "you guys don't like hysteria the way it is" IS A FACT, it's the reason you are posting here in the 1st place... However:

Holy shit, you really can't go one post without your cocky this-is-the-way-it-is attitude, can you?

"you guys don't like hysteria the way it is" IS A FACT"' - It's not a fact, you're actually dead wrong... if it were a fact, I'd be making suggestions to change the scheme, not remove it from classic league and into the free league WHICH I'VE ACTIVELY PLAYED IN BEFORE.  I've said I've enjoyed playing hysteria before.. that's always been my stance; I can just recognize what schemes are classic league worthy... IT IS POSSIBLE to like hysteria and still want it removed. 

" it's the reason you are posting here in the 1st place..."  Once again, you're bullying the conversation by implying you know something to be true, and you know what, it's really f@#!ing annoying when you do that and talk for others like you just did.  The "reason" you think I'm posting is false, first of all, but to outright claim my motivations with such confidence is extremely arrogant.  I'm posting because I believe hysteria belongs in the free league, not because you think I don't like the scheme.  You're constantly shoving your inaccurate 'truths' down other people's throats.  You're downright toxic to any form of legitimate debate and if I were a mod you'd be muted by now...

Can't any mod see how Komo constantly bullies people with his 'matter of fact' assumptions and statements?  I've quoted like 6 of them in my last 2 posts... Can the mods not think for themselves and just realize Komo is just spouting bullshit and ban him from the thread already?  Jesus christ, I don't even care about the hysteria topic anymore, someone just needs to remove Komo because he can't for the life of him perpetuate healthy communication... In any other workplace scenario, someone like him would not be tolerated to speak if he's just going to put words in everyone's mouth EVERY GOD DAMN POST

We should select the top 19 players who love the game the most/are best at it and then let them vote..

We could base it on results from the classic leauge...

Just because you love something and you're good at it doesn't mean everything you say is infallible toward the subject... If people could objectively look at the schemes and analyze them without bias and use science and reason, that would be best

Hence why I said take away Elite and replace with Intermediate because they share alot of similarities, if you added Intermediate and took away Hysteria, then the "strategic" thinkers would be at an advantage with the picking system.

Why does that even matter when playing in a league that is supposed to show who the best overall wormer is?  It doesn't... I dismissed this point a while back, please stop using it.

I haven't fully read every new post to this thread.  Komo said the league is already so unbalanced so we shouldn't bother trying to fix it... Komo should not be allowed in serious discussions with a comment like that lol

Any questions, Walrus? No? Then back to swim.

Yeah, Walrus, get back in the f@#!in' water!

Quote from: Komito on February 14, 2013, 05:57 PM

ShyGuy, sorry but "game mechanics" has nothing to do with what TuS represents, if people don't like it, I suggest making a seperate league for the players who wish to play "flawless" schemes.

Exactly, TuS the the league to everyone, noob included ! Not for the 2% top players.

I'm not sure if this was sarcasm (both Komo and zip's post).  Let's make some things clear regarding you guys who love the "flaws" in schemes and like how funny they can be or whatever:

1. You have the option to go on wormnet and host any kind of scheme you want with any rules and play with anyone you want for fun.
2. You have the option to play in the free league dedicated to fun, unbalanced schemes.
3. You guys have the rotated league that may appeal to those who feel they couldn't make it in the classic league and gives them a chance to focus on one scheme without having to play other schemes they suck at.


With those points in mind, I don't see how moving hysteria to the free-league and adding a more proven scheme such as aerial into the classic league is molding TuS to be a league that caters to the "top 2%".  You traditionalists already have a monopoly over this game; have you noticed every time someone wants to make a minor change to make things more competitive, it is the same people that come out and vehemently oppose it?  For f@#! sake, it was you people who argued against a new policy in ttrr that would simply ensure the faster wormer in a RACE wins... So don't start implying that those who want to play competitively ( a large number, too) are trying to mold TuS to fit our needs only, because it's pretty f@#!in clear what group of players have been the completely selfish ones.

How can you sit there and complain about a "flawed scheme" when humans never have been and never will be perfect themselves?

 I never said the word "perfect" in any of my posts referring to modifying schemes. Ever.  This statement completely misses any point I've tried to make.. not even going to bother responding to this in detail even though the implications are pretty stupid.

ShyGuy, sorry but "game mechanics" has nothing to do with what TuS represents, if people don't like it, I suggest making a seperate league for the players who wish to play "flawless" schemes.

And on the flip-side, I suggest those who want to play unbalanced schemes and schemes with unnecessary, fixable flaws host casual games on wormnet, play in the free league, play in the rotated league, and actively oppose improvements to the one league that is supposed to determine who the best players are... Oh wait, you guys already do all four of those things.

Every single arguement and point anyone has ever made against Hysteria has been countered by people like myself, MonkeyIsland, DarkOne, Casso, Chelsea etc.

In your mind you might think this is true.  Anecdotal evidence and personal opinions do not counter the scientific method or empirical evidence.  Because of the 1 second turn time, there is too much to be abused in hysteria that completely defy what a competitive game should be... this has already been mathematically and logically proven in other threads... I don't care how many games you've won... Unless you put forth science against science, I don't care about your stories...