I see a lot of interesting points in this... needlessly large wall of text.
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
In Mole, you can take your time to advance carefully and even to set up ambushes, which I'm pretty sure it's something you don't really get to see in these more technical schemes (I might be wrong, but I highly doubt it considering the overall look of the schemes and since that ambushes are organized attacks that require certain elements and time to be prepared, hence naturally occupying a bigger spot in the long-term strategy side). Mole Shopper is much more about strategy, planning than performing the best possible attacks. I do understand the concept of "strategic".
Capture the flag is the first thing that comes to my mind. Intermediates has that factor too; specially at the end (SD) and/or cavern maps.
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
You can't really say they "share all that" because they're very distinct from Mole. Just the fact that the worms start exposed already prevents you from doing many moves and tactics you'd do in Mole.
The thing is that the technical aspect of these schemes is more predominant, so this consequently ends up removing room for the strategic aspect, making it become secondary. It works like a scale (at least as far as WA goes); if you add too much technical aspect, the strategic aspect ends up being reduced and vice versa. You might not know, but killing the worms as fast/efficient as possible in Mole games has nothing to do with being good at it; it's totally different from Intermediate, in which you gain advantage by simply looking for the most effective attacks possible on a regular basis. I know Intermediate has more than just that, such as putting worms to safety and other things, but the fast flow of the scheme granted by the exposure of your worms that forces you to fight right away already makes it more technical than strategic, whereas Mole is the very opposite.
Isn't that a strategy, too? Everyone uses it because it seems to give the best results, but it's strategy nonetheless.
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
As I already explained, crate luck is a minor aspect in Mole Shopper, and like you said, you have to adapt to any situation. If you're unlucky with crates in Mole, you have infinite amount of girders to play defensively until you feel ready to decide to risk your worms' safety for a counter-attack. Also, having less worms or less HP doesn't necessarily mean you're losing.
Adapting to any situation applies to Intermediate, Elite, T17, Mole Shopper and a lot of ground schemes. Having less worms doesn't necessarily mean you are losing in Hysteria, Aerial, Elite... nothing related to these matters actually make Mole any more complex than the mentioned.
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
And it's not because there are no crates in Intermediate that it automatically becomes more luck-based. The luck you might have in positions in Intermediate, on the other hand, is much more crucial than crates luck in Mole.
Fallacy until any real proof. I'm surprised you can go and say that freely then say this:
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM:
Even if I lose a game due to my own mistakes, I never ever go with arguments like "ah, he had banana and that's why he won", because I know I'd have had my chance if I hadn't failed a move during the match. Noobs in Mole should be forbidden from talking about luck in crates until they actually understand the game as grandmasters, and by that I mean being capable of explaining their own reasoning for their move choice. Like I already said, the scheme is so rich in strategy and tricks that the biggest spread in the matches are granted much more from to the strategy utilized than from the luck on crates.
That also applies to starting positions on Intermediate. You shouldn't talk about Luck in Intermediate either, unless you are a Grandmaster (can't see your badge).
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
Well, I have beaten players who play ages before I even started. Being a newer player or not, it doesn't make a difference. What makes the difference is the efficiency of the strategy you use. Some players learn faster than others, and there are also different playing styles among the players in Mole Shopper. Some are more aggressive, some are more defensive, some go more for crates etc; it all depends on the style that feels more convenient for them to play, and this is one of the aspects I like the most in Mole; it makes the game scenarios become even more variable and consequently enriches the scheme.
yes
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
QuoteI also fail to understand how or why Mole supposedly requires a greater degree of tactical OR technical skill than any other scheme. Knowing when to hide, knowing how to chute, knowing how to best utilize a weapon and when, knowing how to darkside, etc.... these are all competencies shared by many other schemes. Mole isn't unique in this regard by any means.
If you're so sure about that, then why don't you bring your best Intermediate player to face the best Mole Shopper Player in Mole Shopper? That would be a way to confirm if what you're saying is true or not.
And the other way around? Mole is surely not the least tactical scheme ever created, but being the most?... You'd have to play quite an amount of all schemes to understand the depth of the "mole is the most tactical scheme around".
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
Hahaha... funny contradiction of yours here when you say you don't understand how I can dismiss the overall luck factor right after saying "I can, in my head, understand how the game will play". The answer is simple: you simply can't! You can't because you haven't got the slightest idea of how the strategy in that game plays like. It's just like getting a chess variant of which you only know the rules and start saying you know everything that is possible and what is not, how it will play etc...
Even more than that! If you haven't played the scheme extensively, you probably haven't found all the strategies or tactics there are. Until you play
all the schemes you can't make that affirmation. Want to make it worse? If you wanted to grandmaster a scheme, you'd have to play against enthusiasts like you or there are chances you miss counter strategies.
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
I have won many games in which my arsenal was x3 smaller than my opponent's. The crate access might be random, but the victory access at the end of the day is not. Again, you might have the weapons, but you might not be able to use them. It's no surprise that the terrain is all enclosed and there are unlimited girders. This scheme is indeed a masterpiece.
Would you have won against a Magnus (speaking of strategy, skill and the what level) with that weapon distribution?
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
(rant about skunk3 talk)
yes
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
Many times during a match you'll prefer using the simple Mole Bomb instead of a stronger weapon, even if you have a Banana Bomb, kinda like why Snake wields a knife along with his handgun in MGS3.
ok congratulations
Quote from: Magnus on July 11, 2018, 04:19 AM
QuoteI was only attempting to argue that Mole isn't nearly as hardcore as some of you clearly think it is.
But it's only logical that the ones who play it daily know infinitely more about it than someone like you who never plays it. What made you believe you could know more in the first place? It's like you're a plumber arguing with a doctor about medicine.
Your own argument fails here for the reasons explained above. If you are saying it's the
most tactical scheme, it's like if you claimed to have the longest weenie. You'd have to compare yourself with
every single male and since you haven't you have no right to say it.
Dude it's not about saying whether mole shopper is luck based or not
and nobody cares out of the mole shopping community, it's about having the arrogance to say it's the
most.
