Quote from: DeathInFire on December 12, 2011, 11:49 PM
I voted yes simply because their are markings nonetheless. (mine says Samsung all over the lower middle).
It's like forbidding people to remap their keys because they have a bad keyboard / keylock. Might sound exaggerated but if someone wants to legally use markings he/she will just get a monitor that is old, some even have important notes attached to the monitor, same thing as a visual aid by that definition. And since there is no rule against any form of hardware it's pretty obvious the rule is unremarkable.

Pretty much every monitor has buttons or a logo near the middle, using those are perfectly fine. I really don't think there are any monitors in existence that come with grids on them or anything too excessive. Just look at the google image search for computer monitors.

Of course, it's possible for such a monitor to exist. But I think the community would choose to disallow it at that point, as they should, since it takes away a fair bit of skill. This is similar to the subject of padding your spacebar, except in that case, some people might already start with sensitive kbs; with monitors, there's no way any wormer has started with a gridded one.

I wish there were more votes, but most people seem to think markings should be illegal; not just 'lame', but illegal. And some who voted yes just did so because it's unenforceable, but might still follow it if it's a rule.

There hasn't really been a good argument for allowing this stuff other than unenforceability, but once again, no one seems to be arguing that due to that, we should allow macros. We just need a short sentence in the rules:

*No using any kind of external aids while playing (for example, using a ruler to help you aim).

That covers pretty much all the crap we've been talking about, kami rulers, markings... audio CDs you recorded of yourself listing BnG distances. As afraid as some people are that this will give noobs evil ideas (although hardly anyone fully reads the rules), a lot of them will surely take it to heart and not even think about 'clever' ways to aim, knowing they're illegal.

Bravo Cue, magnifico. Must've taken a lot of work, can't believe how much content you put in there. But yeah it's really fun seeing which moves are most efficient when 3 worms are trying different things in the same spot, it's even educational. Good music too!

As doubletime would say, psychological warfare, it's the only way to win! I remember Chicken tried something like that on me in CWT last month, hehe.

Once again, a rule about this is just as 'senseless' as a rule about macros, which are also undetectable. It's very important that people aren't allowed to use macros for aiming, mine drops, roping, and various other things. Just like macros, allowing visual aids and memory aids simply cheapens the skill of WA itself, and makes aspects of it such as BnG not worth playing.

By allowing visual aids and memory aids (and along those lines you would have to make macros legal as well), some current players and potential future players will be turned off from the game when they hear about them, isn't that a good enough reason to make them illegal?

Quote from: Random00 on December 05, 2011, 07:11 PM
Sure, its more impressive if you remember all things instead of looking them up.

But imo using paper for worms games is like using formulary for math tests. You simply have more time for the important stuff, e.g. tactical behaviour in Elite.
Dario for example has written down a lot of distances, flying behaviour of worms, maximum angles for certain situations, etc. I dont see why you shouldnt use those things.

The only scheme where this would make sense is bng imo, because its a very technical scheme.

In Intermediate for example it makes a HUGE difference (for me) if I play with writing down things (opponents worms' names, used weaps) or not...

Dario doesn't have those things written down, he's simply committed them to memory, like most intermediate players; he also frowns on the use of paper to aim straight. Also, most people including myself use their finger as a kami ruler, and there's nothing wrong with that, since the length is still prone to error.

Quote from: DeathInFire on December 05, 2011, 04:44 PM
Most monitors have something written under the screen, I know that my old screen hat weird painting under the screen where I just related the color to the distance, if the worm was standing near "blue" I knew that it's a straight up full power Zook with 1 strength to the left. Since it was a symmetrical it applied to both wind sides.

Later on I just extended that by making additional markings since it made sense to me, never felt like cheating to me tbh. I actually thought it is smart, lol.

I think it's fine to use buttons or things that are part of your monitor to help you aim, because it's not like there are any monitors out there that come with gridlines, not much danger of abuse. I think we should just disallow further markings because they basically allow you to not even have to use your memory for shots.

I mean people complain that BnG becomes entirely a game of memory once you start notching, but with markings or written down shots, even that's taken away. You should at the very least have to remember notches and their distances. If someone gave a newbie a master list of shots and taught them how to notch (and they used visual aids), they would be a pro in a matter of weeks.

Quote from: Statik on December 05, 2011, 06:26 AM
So.. glasses are "visual aids" too?

That's right stat, you really just have to accept the way you were made, no eyesight cheating.

But here's something else to consider, a person could simply write down every BnG shot applicable to a certain distance, and merely look at it every turn. If the worm were 800 pixels away, you could just look at your list of shots and choose one based on how easy it is and how much angle you have. Maybe it's a stretch to call that a 'visual aid' but it's some kind of aid at least.

Well of course, you wouldn't be able to use paper to aim. Think about how lame using paper or markings would look to someone watching you play in real life, it's just not how high level gaming should work.

Something like 'No using external visual aids' is all I'm asking for, I don't think that would give people too many ideas. I suppose people rarely check the rules, but at least it would be there if the subject came up.

But I do play BnG now with no regard for cheapness, that's the way it should be. Last clanner I played that way had no drama at all, hallelujah. I'd also like to replace BnG with something else, though this marking discussion applies to other schemes as well.

Quote from: lacoste on December 03, 2011, 10:55 PM
Now seriously - ive said it many times, BnG (and anything thats related i.e throwings in Elite) is too sensitive for abuses and theres literally nothing we can do about it in this simple 2D game besides pointing out whats right and what is not, the rest is up to players and their playing style. For me markings on the screen are not right, on the other hand poiting your previous aim with a finger is kinda different - its the same as looking at ingame sprites to measure it, id say someone is deceiving himself for not using it.

Well yeah, 'pointing out' means making a rule for it.

Quote from: lacoste on December 03, 2011, 10:39 PM
What if i have scratches and markings all over the screen, do i have to buy a new one?

Only if you couldn't resist using them to aim, and you couldn't get rid of them or cover them up somehow. I mean if someone can have markings and avoid using them, that's fine, though that wouldn't fly in the 2015 televised TUS playoffs.

Quote from: HHC on December 03, 2011, 09:54 PM
It's an unwritten law. Just because the rules don't specifically state it (yet) doesn't mean it isn't cheating.

You're engaging in unfair competition, on purpose.

You have a splendid reputation Mablak, and the respect of the whole community. But this makes you really no better than say... Zippo.

Unwritten laws are pointless in a league, we can't reasonably expect players to abide by them. Especially not new players, who would have no idea about such things.

BnG is an excellent example of how unwritten laws have gone wrong. Everyone has their own strange idea about what 'cheapness' entails. Some Brazillian once told me that you can't attempt the same type of shot twice in a row (though for him it was fine to do exact repeats every other shot), and some people now cry foul if you teleport near the middle of the map, even if you're a legal distance away.

Expecting people to follow unwritten laws has caused endless drama in BnG, because people are essentially playing with different sets of rules. I would say that encouraging the creation of unwritten laws is the source of much of the unfair competition in worms.

Quote from: MonkeyIsland on December 03, 2011, 03:37 PM
I don't like this and I think even though there's no way to detect this, we should make some boundaries and draw the line somewhere. But us drawing the line, will teach potential "lamers" to go there faster. There are very few people who do this, there will be more when they see it in the rules.

But you realize, not having a rule against something means it's legal. It is currently okay to use markings, which is precisely why some people are using them. I'll be using markings if nothing comes of this thread, and I'll encourage other players to use them as well.

You could simply phrase it as no using 'visual aids', that term is general enough to not give people too many ideas.

Quote from: chakkman on December 03, 2011, 12:54 AM
What's the point in setting up a rule when you can't confirm that someone was breaking that rule... you give the use of cheat tools as an example, probably referring to SnipeR using AHK, getting banned for that. Well, MI must have had sure proof for him using that tool otherwise he wouldn't have gotten banned. Or at least he must've thought he has sure proof.

Well, by this reasoning, using slow motion programs would be perfectly legal if Cybershadow and Deadcode weren't around, since without those two, we wouldn't be able to detect them.

In every video game there are important rules against cheating that can't be enforced. Let cheaters cheat, let honorable people play with dignity by not having game-ruining things allowed/encouraged.