An online guide would be good, the thing is most new players dont even know there is a worms league, or in fact any worms related websites. If it were implemented into the help channel on AG that would be good.

*just read your post properly, yeh if it was implemented in the update this would be good. An introduction video would be even better http://wormtube.worms2d.info/81/wa_beta_showdown like the one cue made about the updates, but instead explaining the ways of worms online (rules, schemes, websites, etiquette, etc).

Quote from: Komito on April 08, 2012, 10:15 AM

Quote from: Lex on April 08, 2012, 09:26 AMthe weak English skill degrades much of the humor for me.  It's very distracting.

Lol, the weak English is the whole point xD

indeed, also its realise/criticise, dont use that nasty american spelling stay true to traditional english xd

aww

hyst is as competitive as any other league scheme, its probably one of the least luck dependant schemes out there especially when we all agree its accuracy that wins the game.

@ peja: sorry m8, thread has been well and truly hijacked however there are 2 or 3 other threads with regards to league changes right now, not that you need to stop posting in this one either.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 10:17 PM
You genuinely didn't get what I meant with that? I trust a roper that has never had any experience with petrol beyond knowing what it does to be able to block a worm on a cave or "room", but I'm sure that in your experience playing shoppers you're aware that petrol blocking can happen in a bunch of non obvious places.

Yes I got what you meant by that, regardless as to whether or not the petrol block is obvious, its dropping a weapon from a rope, the physicality is the same as an "obvious" petrol drop. Sure, the better defaulter may spot a "non obvious" petrol block whilst his non-experienced-in-default counterpart may not, however this is such a small detail, and a such a rare occurrence that it is not a relevant supporting point to the argument; "the better defaulter wins in shopper". "Non obvious" petrol blocks are not something you associate with general shopper play. A non obvious petrol block is attributed to creativity, I didn't deny creativity existed in shopper I said that creativity is minimal in shopper.

Like I keep saying, you do not win most shoper games because of minor discrepancies like "non obvious petrol blocks", most shopper games, in fact the overwhelming majority of shopper games are won due to the loser falling from rope during his turn, failing to attack or failing to hide.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 10:17 PM
Roping skill is not Roper skill. Roping skill existed before Ropers. RR requires roping skill but they're definitely not the same skills required to play Roper.

What I said was rope knocking is a roping skill. Its a roping skill, defaults require roping skill, yet this is not a default specific skill. This is a skill shared between the two, yet it is a roping skill.

In the days you talked about playing shopper, when would you rope knock in a default scheme for the league? You wouldnt beacause you dont rope knock in elite or Team17. Its only in the last half decade in which Intermediate has taken off that a link between rope knocking in default schemes and shopper can be drawn.

Yes, you are right to say rope knocking is also a default skill, however this is one of FEW default skills linking shopper and defaults. This is my argument; that default skills found in both shopper and defaults are few and far between, they are minimal.

Its funny how in your attempt to explain why you think the better defaulter is the better shopper player, the best examples of default skills found in shopper are "non obvious petrol blocks" and rope knocking. Its funny because in your "day" (the days when you played shopper in Ce) rope knocking was not even a skill associated with default schemes at all because the only default scheme that incorporates rope knocking (intermediate), was not played in your day, at least not at a competitive level.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 10:17 PM
That is not definite data is it? It could be explained by many factors, like that many people learn the game by playing Shoppers, it's many people's first "wormnet" scheme and that. But even if you could somehow draw a definite connection between that and my theory not being true the data would still be somewhat invalid because we're assuming, when debating, the hypothetical that the maps used meet our criteria of league standards, and this is not happening right now in TUS, at least not constantly, so ultimately there are too many variables in play to be able to judge based on TUS ratings. At least, this particular case.

EXACTLY.

Like you said, people start by playing shoppers, they learn how to use the weapons by playing shoppers, they learn how to rope knock in shoppers, they learn all the necessary skills required to win a game of shopper against a player of any skill level.... IN SHOPPERS! Aside from the rare (so rare that they are irrelevant) details like "non obvious petrol blocks", a shopper player needs no default experience to beat another player in that scheme. In fact, seeing as "non obvious petrol blocks" (and ALL other details) are possible in shopper if the map allows, it makes sense that the shopper only player will also discover these things in due course and ascertain the same attention to detail in shopper as the defaulter, without having to have played years worth of default schemes.

The fact that there is no correlation proving that the better defaulter will win the shopper supports this view. Its not like a scheme like Team17, where the better defaulter will generally beat the shopper player and there is a trend to support this.

Your original argument was that shopper was identical to Team17 bar a few differences, then I think you accepted that shopper is way off being on a parr with Team17 in terms of the amount of defaulting knowledge and skill required, and now you're saying that default knowledge is prominent and also relevant in shopper so long as the map is properly designed.

I would agree that Shopper, out of all the roping schemes requires the most "default" knowledge, however it is not the sort of knowledge that can only be discovered with years of default playing. To simplify, you can learn everything you need to know about shopper (in order to beat any player), by just playing shopper alone. There are no skills that you could not learn from just playing shopper alone as opposed to playing both schemes.

I stand by the fact that shopper is a scheme primarily based on consistent roping and hiding coupled with "common sense" attacks in the vast majority of games. You still have not said anything about the original point you made about shopper being "extremely similar to Team17 bar a few differences" and I am wondering why, when I feel I have explained in more than enough detail why the similarities between Shopper, Team17 and other default schemes are minimal.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 09:52 PM
There's probably more total rope knocks in any regular intermediate scheme than there is on a roper. In intermediate, like in Shopper, it's a creative skill, it facilitates kills sometimes. In roper it's much more of just touching the worm because you want him to get out of a hard hide or whatever, were he falls is hardly relevant since all you want is to attack. This is why piling is a much more demanding skill in default (intermediate) and in shopper.

I forgot about inter, I edited my post before you replied. I still dont think that this is relevant to your argument especially when in the days you talk about playing shopper with chicken (Ce etc), intermediate was played at nowhere near the level of skill it is played at today, it was hardly played competitively at all, if at all.

Where the worm ends up after you knock IS relevant in roper if you are going for fall damage, yes knocks need to be more precise and are more frequent in shopper, yet this is a roping skill, a roping skill found in defaults, yet a roping skill nonetheless.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 09:52 PM
If you're hiding in a drill hole.

Drill holes do not exist on indestructible maps.

Quote from: NAiL on April 15, 2012, 09:52 PM
There is no trend on TUS that shows the better defaulters win against the worse defaulters in shopper, if there was a trend then you would have a point, however there is no trend.

Any thoughts about that?

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
What about the thousand examples where FD does actually make the difference? FD is the difference between a 3 turn and a 4 turn kill with balanced shopper weapons. Because 48x3 is still < 150.

Even if it is the difference, the point is additional fall damage is one of the only default skills directly translated into shopper (point I was making). If you think about it, doing extra fall damage with weapons from the rope is a skill directly translated from roper, not defaults. "Ropers" know how to deal fall damage as its a big part of roper/wxw.

Even if you do additional fall damage, fall damage doesnt win you the game 99% of times. Your opponent falling from rope, failing to hide, missing a shot, or collecting worse weapons than you is what wins you 99% of shopper games.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
It's only game changing if you know how to properly use it. Don't

Your posts seem to give the impression you assume "ropers" dont have any BASIC weapon knowledge. Dropping a petrol bomb or using a flamethrower is not an advacned default skill, go watch NNN replays to see advanced default skill. Shopper is NOT the scheme for advanced default skill. I believe you are confusing you're terminology here, you seem to be confusing the word "roper" for "noob". Noobs dont know how to use weapons properly, ropers know how to use weapons properly, defaulters know how to use weapons properly and a whole f@#! load more when playing DEFAULT schemes.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
This doesn't even make sense to me, what does the amount of times you manage to attack per turn have anything to do with creativity? There's a huge difference between doing 55 damage with a grenade and tossing it in a way that the worm is launched to a spot you can kill him afterwards taking advantage of piling and turn advantage. Not everyone does a display of creativity every turn, doesn't mean it's not there.

Sure its there, in tiny doses. Its less creativity, more accuracy, its hard to be creative with indestructible terrain. Sure, you may need to be creative in shopper sometimes, but these situations are few and far between, compared to default schemes, compared to Team17.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
It's a bad map for leagues because some people have mastered in stupid amounts. But I think you underestimate the depth of this map.

"Mastered" the map? Exactly how can you master dogma city shopping? Sure you can be aware of "risk/reward" hides as you say, yet most players (whether default playing or not) can scan a map at a glance and tell instantly were the "risk/reward" hides are, its not like its a big secret, or something you only discover after years of playing the same map, you can tell instantly whats gong on in a map just by looking at it.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
There are actually a couple of risk reward hides that require very precise knocks and can also allow perfect pixel blocks. Dogma City is a map were a good shopper can really shine against a not so good now, again, by abusing little map gimmicks that aren't good suited for league play.

I wont deny that, (although city shopping is still a very basic/boring map). Rope knocks are a default skill? I consider rope knocks to be a roping skill, rope knocks are most apparent in... again, roper, more so than any default scheme. Sure you rope knock in intermediate , but not rope rope rope rope rope knock (full power rope).

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 08:44 PM
You seem to assume the roper can just as easily petrol block or use a full damage flamethrower as the defaulter.

Yes I do. There is nothing hard about dropping a petrol bomb to block a worm, or firing up a worm against a wall with the flamethrower, again, this is basic worms knowledge that you learn in your first months of play. These are not default specific skills, these are basic general skills.

There is no trend on TUS that shows the better defaulters win against the worse defaulters in shopper, if there was a trend then you would have a point, however there is no trend.

My point is you claimed that the better defaulter will beat the worse defaulter in shopper, when there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE to support this. Like I said its 50/50 assuming both players have their BASIC knowledge of how to use weapons down.

Still waiting for an answer to my question, if you dont answer in the next post ill assume you are saying that you admit you were wrong to say shopper and team17 are extremely identical "bar a few differences". Thats ok, we all make mistakes.

Quote from: ropa on April 15, 2012, 07:38 PM
Who do you think would win in a shopper game, Dario or someone who is only good at ropers?
And who would win a WxW (assuming a hard map) the good roper, or the good defaulter?

I think it's a way to look at it that also shows which schemes require similar skillsets.

Its 50/50. Look at the played shopper games on TUS, there is absolutely no visible trend in the better defaulter winning the over the better roper, neither is their a trend towards the opposite.

Shopper has to be the most luck based scheme, without doubt. The only game changing default skill involved in shopper is that of doing as much damage as possible with each weapon (assuming we take things like piling, or the rare accurate plop shot/drop for granted). Even still fall damage is of little relevance. Most league players can deal maximum damage with a weapon in shopper (whether defaulter or not), its not hard to drop a weapon on a worms head in an open map with 30 seconds of time), the only way to deal more damage is by creating extra fall damage. Most players are aware of this and will hide in such a way to avoid additional fall damage. Even if they dont, fall damage doesnt even make that much difference, take this example:

A worm has 150hp in shopper. You pick up a sheep, drop it correctly and deal say 70 damage (without additional fall damage), you then need to deal another 80 points worth of damage in order to kill that worm. Even if you deal 80 damage with the sheep, you'll still need another two turns to kill that worm with normal powered weapons, unless you have the LUCK of picking up a high power weapon like dynamite.

A game changing weapon in shopper is the petrol bomb. Petrol bomb in effect acts as a girder (if the enemy worm is positioned correctly), in fact its worse than a girder seeing as there is no escape. If you have the LUCK of picking up 3 petrol bombs, just like the luck of collecting higher powered weapons than your opponent then it can win you the game.

Now im not saying that shopper is solely a luck scheme, not at all. Shopper is a game of consistency, if you think about it its probably the most "consistently good play" demanding scheme. Due to the nature of shopper you really cannot afford to mess up one turn. Creativity is minimal in shopper (due to the fact of being pretty much ALWAYS able to attack your opponent in any given turn). In a scheme like Team17 creativity has a huge role as you can avoid being attacked by blocking and taking the high ground. You cannot avoid being attacked in shopper, thus crate luck plays a ridiculously HUGE part in deciding the game assuming both players play sensibly.

If played on a good map, by good I mean a tight map with ample hides, hides that you can really HIDE in and avoid maximum damage, then shopper becomes a far more interesting scheme. Take fatal fanatic and old bloopy maps for example, these allow for far more interesting games than say... a map like dogma city shopping. What!? How can you knock dogmas famous map? As handsome as that map is, its terrible for gameplay. You can attack without fail easily every turn, there are no hides that actually make it significantly harder for you to be attacked by the enemy and the map is open as hell. Its sad that most shopper maps bare more resemblance to dogma city shopping, and less to old bloopy and fatal fanatic maps.

Like you said ropa, if shopper was played on more intricate maps all of the time, the scheme would be far more intensive, and far more enjoyable. However, even on intricate maps, default skills ARE NOT the deciding factor when it comes to winning. CONSISTENT ROPING is the deciding factor in shopper, along with getting good weapons as opposed to shit ones. Note I did not say good roping, consistent roping, sensible attacks and consistent roping to hides after you attack.

So yeh its 50/50, assuming both players are at decent level, the better defaulter has no greater advantage in shopper than the better roper as MOST of the default skills you learn in defaults are NOT translated into shopper, MINIMAL similarities in default skills are shared between defaults and shopper. Falling from your rope during a turn is game changing, picking up a flamethrower instead of a dynamite is game changing, starting first or second is game changing. Shopper does not require as many default skills as you seem to believe.

Quote from: Ramone on April 14, 2012, 10:51 PM



xD

ROFL, nice xd

thats made everything worthwhile xD

You appear as a guest (or hidden) when viewing topics, true fact. Look at the forums home page, your name never appears on the recent user list (not that this is any crime).

You asked HHC to answer one question in the other thread, so I ask you one question now.

Were you wrong to say that Team17 and Shopper are extremely similar schemes that require the same set of skills "bar a few differences", when I clearly pointed out that the similarities are minimal and the differences maximal.

Were you wrong yes or no?

Answer me like you demand others to answer you.

+ the name calling started because of the way you choose to address, and the ways you have chosen to address people throughout the years on worms forums. Whenever you pop up on TUS you make sweeping statements that often bare no truth to how things actually are. Remember before when you were making up all that rubbish about "tus propaganda", and the trolling of tus before that, I put you right both times yet you still dont seem to have learned not to do it, maybe now you will learn.

Quote from: ropa on April 14, 2012, 08:16 PM
I thought that by making you believe you owned me you would shut up. I was wrong. On that.

edit: only on that.

Just because I didn't reply to your ownage post were your verbally destroy me to death using your clearly superior knowledge it doesn't mean you're right or anything, I mean, you might be but all it means is that I can't be bothered with someone like you. I'd be wasting my time.

I hope that settles it between you and me, you can continue calling me names and stuff just don't expect me to get into that game, I do it many times, mainly because I'm not very good at picking my battles, but not this time. You can feel proud, or the complete opposite.

Nice edit of post, fortunately I quoted your original post word for word so everyone can see you admitted you were wrong, mug. Be gracious in defeat, now go crawling back under your bridge and dont come out for another year. When you come out I will be waiting for you and you will be owned again.

+ stop viewing as a guest

Quote from: ropa on April 14, 2012, 08:16 PM
I was wrong.

good, apology accepted.

Quote from: ropa on April 14, 2012, 12:07 PM
And just to clarify before I go have fondue.

I don't have an agenda, I'm not trying to impose a system based on my personal taste. MI raised the idea of changing the league and I'm proposing ideas that are a result of weeks of debating, I am by no means asking MI or anyone in the staff here to put them in practice. I'd be happy enough if they understood the concepts behind those systems and why they make sense to guarantee a high level of all around competition. If I can get them to see that and they can come up with systems of their own that guarantee said concepts to shape up then I'd be happy enough. And if not, well, I tried even if that's against your will.

hi fassy.

dude you get your girlfriend involved in worms squabbles haha, sad

See in that other thread you're telling HHC to admit he contradicted himself, yeh? Look back on page 1 of this thread and admit you contradicted yourself and got owned by me hard.

bye

Darkone I said that today, (in jest) AFTER what I said in this thread, YESTERDAY, so dont quote that because its completely irrelevant.

What you just quoted was said AFTER you told me to take a break, so seriously cut that bullshit out please its annoying when you do things like that. I did nothing wrong here, ropa said team17 and shoppa are the near identical schemes, I corrected him. I made valid point in this thread, valid points relevant to an argument that had been made against me as komo also pointed out to you.

You better realise you had no right to tell me I "need a break". seriously overall I like you but you have an annoying habit of patronising fellow wormers when THE DISCUSSION DOESNT EVEN INVOLVE YOU.

You couldnt come back to me yesterday cos U realised that this HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU, and so TODAY you quote me from a thread I posted in TODAY and use it to justify something you said YESTERDAY.

WHAT DID THAT OTHER THREAD HAVE TO DO WITH THIS THREAD? NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL.

Everyone can see thats just BS so apologise to me now and dont do it again. Seriously you're in the wrong here not me, I am not the sort of person to rant about things when im wrong, I ONLY MAKE THESE SORTS OF POSTS when the truth is SO OBVIOUS, SO OBVIOUS, that I have to use this format to highlight just how OBVIOUSLY WRONG YOU ARE.

Learn when to keep your nose out of things that  do not concern you, the argument was constructive. Ropa said shoppa and Team17 are near identical schemes, I corrected him, that is all. No input from you was required, yet you felt the need to tell me and ropa we both need a break from worms. GTFO with you're patronising attitude, its not the first time its happened and I doubt it will be the last, unless you learn now and become a better person because of it, which I hope you do.