English
Main Menu
My panel

  • Welcome to The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon. Please log in or sign up.
Active chat preview

This box automatically views your last visited chat.
Menu

Show posts

This section allows you to view all posts made by this member. Note that you can only see posts made in areas you currently have access to.

Show posts Menu

Messages - ShyGuy

#61
Quote from: DarkOne on February 22, 2013, 05:15 PM
I don't think turn order abuse should be eliminated entirely. I mean, it's even a valid tactic in elite. It would be silly to remove it from hysteria.
But at this point, I'd say we could give a lot of things a try in cups (oslt).


This is true; however, elite is not burdened with 1 second turn time where rotation rape is often uncountered and pulled off with ease.  A scheme like Aerial, 3 second turn time, keeps the craziness of hysteria while still allowing the option of rotation rape but gives the defender a better chance at countering it
#62
My argument has always been early game and mid game in hysteria is absolutely meaningless... The last time there was a big hysteria thread, I told people to look at Komo's recent hysteria replays, and my point was proven... No matter what you do early and mid game, you gain very little, if not any, advantage... doesn't that seem whack for a scheme that's supposed to be "strategic" and "skillful?"  Look at the majority of hysteria games, it's almost always a 1v1... For a scheme where the goal is to KILL the enemy team's worms, how come in hysteria there's no benefit and sometimes a disadvantage to killing the first 3 worms?  There's no advantage to killing your opponents worms... in a scheme where the goal is to kill your opponents worms. 

My other point from the old hysteria thread - the 1 second turn time highly limits creativity and move choice... there's only so much you can do in 1 second, which is why the game usually turns into a 1v1 bng fest because what else are you going to do? The 1 second turn time also restricts you from protecting your own worms, which is why rotation rape can be abused...

The scheme basically forces behavior and limits creativity... if it didn't, why do so many hysterias play out the same way?? Answer me that.  Think about it.  If your opponent kills his own worm, it's now 3v4... Here are your options:
1. You can kill one of your own worms next time to prevent him from dealing mass amounts of damage over a course of turns through rotation rape. 
2. You can try to move all your worms close together for protection, although mathematically if he were to still pile you, he'd come out on top in terms of damage dealt.
3. You can choose to just go with the flow and not really make any counter move, but if you do this, you'll get rotation raped.

Those are your three options; of course very special and unique options may arise occasionally.  But look, the enemy lost a worm, the goal is to eliminate all his worms, so how come something that's supposed to build towards a goal just creates a disadvantage for yourself?

Let's look at option 3.  When playing hysteria casually, this is the option most people take, and that's why hysteria being played more casually and for fun would be a better place for it. As soon as a worm dies, you don't see people starting to knock their own worms off or pile close in one little area of the map for the entire game... they just stay put and try to do fun stuff.  The scheme doesn't force your behavior when you play it casually with nothing at stake.

Bottom line: When you're playing hysteria as a high stakes games, everyone's moves are forced because of they don't react in the traditional way, they are just going to take tons of damage and lose.  DO NOT MISTAKE THIS AS BEING A TACTICAL ASPECT OF THE GAME.  Remember, an enemy worm died (an event that is supposed to push you to victory because it works towards the goal of killing all their worms) but it forces your hand, if not you get raped... that's a clear sign of a broken scheme, I don't know how much clearer it can get.

Think about it like you were just creating the hysteria scheme.  What are your goals for a scheme that has 1 second turn time?  Why is it called hysteria? The goals are to kill all the enemy team worms, it's called hysteria because it's supposed to be hectic and crazy because you only have 1 second to attack... does anyone dispute that?  The goal is to kill enemy worms, but there's no incentive to actually do that; it's called hysteria because it's supposed to be crazy, but all the games play out the same way, with the exact couple of tactics used every time with no creativity or thought... The goals of the scheme have not been met, IT'S NOT WORTHY OF BEING PLAYED COMPETITIVELY... Take worms and hysteria out of the picture and just look at game design philosophically - Your game goals you had in mind are not being met and/or are being met with negative, unintentional repercussions.

Yes, it's true that hysteria has some strategy; HOWEVER, it's a problem when you HAVE to use the SAME strategy every time or else you'll simply lose.  It leaves no room for variety, and I don't know how anyone can argue this - the proof is in thousands of hysteria replays where the same shit happens every game.

It basically boils down to a 1v1 pussy fest where you can win simply by a fluke lucky shot; after all, you only get 1 second to aim, a lot of the times it's going to be a luckyshotGG nade or petrol that wins you the game... don't deny it, it's happened to damn near everyone probably more than once... is that what we really want as a competitive league scheme? Because to me, that sounds very uncreative, very low skill cap, boring, and unreliable to determine who is best at the game.  A scheme like Aerial (a balanced Aerial scheme), which I believe had the same intended game design goals as hysteria, is a much better demonstrator of a scheme that fixes everything wrong with competitive hysteria and turns it into a dynamic, strategic, and skillful scheme worthy of the classic league.


.
#63
sigh
#64
Quote from: Komito on February 21, 2013, 09:15 PM
Ok for starters shy, "you guys don't like hysteria the way it is" IS A FACT, it's the reason you are posting here in the 1st place... However:


Holy shit, you really can't go one post without your cocky this-is-the-way-it-is attitude, can you?

"you guys don't like hysteria the way it is" IS A FACT"' - It's not a fact, you're actually dead wrong... if it were a fact, I'd be making suggestions to change the scheme, not remove it from classic league and into the free league WHICH I'VE ACTIVELY PLAYED IN BEFORE.  I've said I've enjoyed playing hysteria before.. that's always been my stance; I can just recognize what schemes are classic league worthy... IT IS POSSIBLE to like hysteria and still want it removed. 

" it's the reason you are posting here in the 1st place..."  Once again, you're bullying the conversation by implying you know something to be true, and you know what, it's really f@#!ing annoying when you do that and talk for others like you just did.  The "reason" you think I'm posting is false, first of all, but to outright claim my motivations with such confidence is extremely arrogant.  I'm posting because I believe hysteria belongs in the free league, not because you think I don't like the scheme.  You're constantly shoving your inaccurate 'truths' down other people's throats.  You're downright toxic to any form of legitimate debate and if I were a mod you'd be muted by now...

Can't any mod see how Komo constantly bullies people with his 'matter of fact' assumptions and statements?  I've quoted like 6 of them in my last 2 posts... Can the mods not think for themselves and just realize Komo is just spouting bullshit and ban him from the thread already?  Jesus christ, I don't even care about the hysteria topic anymore, someone just needs to remove Komo because he can't for the life of him perpetuate healthy communication... In any other workplace scenario, someone like him would not be tolerated to speak if he's just going to put words in everyone's mouth EVERY GOD DAMN POST
#65
Quote from: Doubletime on February 21, 2013, 08:20 PM
You are right Shyguy. But even if you analize hysteria in a discussion and explain why it sucks it is stila subjective statement..Even if it is obvius..You need to deal with absolutes in order for it to be "Objective " which would carry more weight..


You must have missed the thread where math was used to prove that hysteria was broken.

Quote from: Komito on February 21, 2013, 08:31 PM

You guys don't like Hysteria the way it is, we love it the way it is, you would lose more interest by changing it, than leaving it the way it is.

Also, if this League was run the way you guys wanted it, it'd be the most boring League ever created...


This is what I'm talking about.  This is why you drive people crazy in "debates."   You provide ungrounded statements and present them as an argument. 

"You guys don't like Hysteria the way it is"  - That's your opinion that you're presenting as fact, has nothing to do with anything we've said, and is actually false.  We like hysteria as a scheme outside of the classic like, like boom race and mine madness.

"We love it the way it is." - Again, doesn't provide anything insightful to the discussion, just another pointless opinion

"You would lose more interest by changing it" - 1. No? 2. Where is your proof? 3. If this statement is true, why does that even matter to the discussion?  Just another opinion statement you deliver as truth.  You can't even possibly prove that your statement is true unless we did change things, so for now it's just another pointless opinion piece.

"Also, if this League was run the way you guys wanted it, it'd be the most boring League ever created..."  - Another opinion that you state as fact, another ungrounded statement, another sentence you can't prove AT ALL, so again, why do you say such things that don't matter at all and present them as an argument?  Even if that statement were true, it has nothing to do with the topic of hysteria. 
#66
Quote from: Doubletime on February 21, 2013, 07:58 PM
We should select the top 19 players who love the game the most/are best at it and then let them vote..

We could base it on results from the classic leauge...

Just because you love something and you're good at it doesn't mean everything you say is infallible toward the subject... If people could objectively look at the schemes and analyze them without bias and use science and reason, that would be best
#67
I dismissed the point of making sure there are equal scheme types in the league when someone else made that point in the thread. 
#68
Quote from: Komito on February 21, 2013, 05:32 PM

Hence why I said take away Elite and replace with Intermediate because they share alot of similarities, if you added Intermediate and took away Hysteria, then the "strategic" thinkers would be at an advantage with the picking system.



Why does that even matter when playing in a league that is supposed to show who the best overall wormer is?  It doesn't... I dismissed this point a while back, please stop using it.

I haven't fully read every new post to this thread.  Komo said the league is already so unbalanced so we shouldn't bother trying to fix it... Komo should not be allowed in serious discussions with a comment like that lol
#69
Walrus, I'm sorry your positions on everything are objectively wrong.  I am always right and you are always wrong.  That's just the way it goes.  Get good, kid. Jk, hahaha
#70
TUS Discussion / Re: Tired of taner in the shoutbox?
February 18, 2013, 06:30 PM
Quote from: Asbest on February 18, 2013, 04:36 PM

Any questions, Walrus? No? Then back to swim.

Yeah, Walrus, get back in the f@#!in' water!
#71
TUS Discussion / Re: Tired of taner in the shoutbox?
February 17, 2013, 10:23 PM
lol
#72
Quote from: zippeurfou on February 14, 2013, 06:36 PM
Quote from: Komito on February 14, 2013, 05:57 PM
ShyGuy, sorry but "game mechanics" has nothing to do with what TuS represents, if people don't like it, I suggest making a seperate league for the players who wish to play "flawless" schemes.

Exactly, TuS the the league to everyone, noob included ! Not for the 2% top players.

I'm not sure if this was sarcasm (both Komo and zip's post).  Let's make some things clear regarding you guys who love the "flaws" in schemes and like how funny they can be or whatever:

1. You have the option to go on wormnet and host any kind of scheme you want with any rules and play with anyone you want for fun.
2. You have the option to play in the free league dedicated to fun, unbalanced schemes.
3. You guys have the rotated league that may appeal to those who feel they couldn't make it in the classic league and gives them a chance to focus on one scheme without having to play other schemes they suck at.


With those points in mind, I don't see how moving hysteria to the free-league and adding a more proven scheme such as aerial into the classic league is molding TuS to be a league that caters to the "top 2%".  You traditionalists already have a monopoly over this game; have you noticed every time someone wants to make a minor change to make things more competitive, it is the same people that come out and vehemently oppose it?  For f@#! sake, it was you people who argued against a new policy in ttrr that would simply ensure the faster wormer in a RACE wins... So don't start implying that those who want to play competitively ( a large number, too) are trying to mold TuS to fit our needs only, because it's pretty f@#!in clear what group of players have been the completely selfish ones.

Quote from: Komito on February 14, 2013, 05:57 PM

How can you sit there and complain about a "flawed scheme" when humans never have been and never will be perfect themselves?



I never said the word "perfect" in any of my posts referring to modifying schemes. Ever.  This statement completely misses any point I've tried to make.. not even going to bother responding to this in detail even though the implications are pretty stupid.


Quote from: Komito on February 14, 2013, 05:57 PM
ShyGuy, sorry but "game mechanics" has nothing to do with what TuS represents, if people don't like it, I suggest making a seperate league for the players who wish to play "flawless" schemes.


And on the flip-side, I suggest those who want to play unbalanced schemes and schemes with unnecessary, fixable flaws host casual games on wormnet, play in the free league, play in the rotated league, and actively oppose improvements to the one league that is supposed to determine who the best players are... Oh wait, you guys already do all four of those things.

Quote from: Komito on February 14, 2013, 05:57 PM


Every single arguement and point anyone has ever made against Hysteria has been countered by people like myself, MonkeyIsland, DarkOne, Casso, Chelsea etc.



In your mind you might think this is true.  Anecdotal evidence and personal opinions do not counter the scientific method or empirical evidence.  Because of the 1 second turn time, there is too much to be abused in hysteria that completely defy what a competitive game should be... this has already been mathematically and logically proven in other threads... I don't care how many games you've won... Unless you put forth science against science, I don't care about your stories...
#73
Quote from: Kaleu on February 14, 2013, 03:11 PM

But before doing such thing, we need to think in a replace for hysteria, there's 4 rope schemes and 4 default schemes I think we can't just delete hysteria...



But first you need to argue why evening out rope and default schemes is necessary, because honestly I don't see how that is relevant at all.  A lot of people use that approach (myself included I'm sure), but we've never bothered to ask WHY evening out the schemes is so important. It's really not, but I forget that this is TUS and it doesn't favor competitive play. 

If the schemes are 4 to 3, roping to default, people would say those who suck at roping have a disadvantage... Well if your weak spot is in roping, how the f@#! is making sure there are just enough default schemes as roping schemes going to actually help you?  It's not, it's just catering to noobs (once again).  It shouldn't matter if there are 100 roping schemes in the league and 3 defaults... it's the all-around skill league, if you're not going to get better in the other schemes, then you don't deserve to win seasons, it's that simple.  It's fine if you can make it to the top of the ladder by playing a couple of your niche schemes, but when it comes to playoff times, you're going to lose and that's not our problem. 

SO many of these arguments for hysteria are just bonkers... can we not look at the scheme mechanics objectively without accusing people of disliking it or sucking at it or how it will affect other things THAT ARE IRRELEVANT TO THE TOPIC.  If someone thoroughly explains how the rewards and risks system is completely flawed in the scheme, you CANNOT counter that by saying "but it's a popular scheme, activity will go down". You cannot have a debate about the logistics of a scheme by asking one opinion driven poll question, either.



#74
40% disapproving of the scheme is still a major population...  If you asked about the other schemes being league-worthy, I don't think there would be such a high disapproval percent.  Of course, only 98 people have voted in the poll... Worms is way more active than 98 players, so you're never going to properly gather data about the scheme by just posting an optional poll question...

If you're really serious about gathering data, you'd force people to answer a short survey on hysteria or else their tus account will be banned... Give them a reasonable time to do the survey, then analyze those results.  I know it sounds harsh forcing people to do the survey, but if you want real stuff to work with, you need to be ambitious about it like in the real world...
#75
Promotion Project / Re: organizing commentators
February 02, 2013, 12:13 AM
I'll commentate with anyone, but I can't really make promises to commentate specific things, it's just whenever I get on and it is convenient for me to commentate (no one in my room talking, don't have to be somewhere, etc).  I pretty much talk about the game like complete noobs are watching, don't know if that's what you're looking for... I try to explain everything, some of the stuff is painfully obvious