Quote from: Lupastic on September 21, 2021, 08:32 PM
and Syc, I think you are the one whom I have seen somewhere doing a... weapon tracker module? really you really want to make this game as dumb as possible
how more committed you could be.

Nope, you're incorrect -- I made a separate program for weapon tracking, not a module. And I don't think any of us said that we would use this module in a competitive context without it being explicitly allowed. You need to get your facts straight and stop being so condescending, it makes you look petty.

Quote from: Lupastic on September 21, 2021, 06:08 PM
you just ruined the whole online gaming a bit nizikawa, and you also managed to put oldtimer and newbie players in a situation in which they are seriously thinking of rather not even playing any games anymore other than races (or schemes where you play with 1-2 worms)
thanks bro 'priciate it

the community got even thinner by this. but hey, at least you don't need to waste too much paper and pen at your home anymore

hero of 2021 <3

Wow what a cynical and unnecessary thing to say -- what makes you the authority on what's "ruining online gaming"? It seems to me that nizikawa has been trying to work with the community to make things better, and even though releasing some modules prematurely may seem naive, you really won't please everyone when making new modules. If anything I think it's a good motivator for competitive WA to get more serious about what's considered cheating and to shed some light on some issues surrounding modules in general. How about instead of you just complaining about the situation, try to come up with and suggest solutions to the arguably bigger problem of the ease of cheating on w:a in general.

You can also view your opponents, but it adds a chat message saying you've enabled it.

Quote from: Chicken23 on September 19, 2021, 10:13 PM
I've shared my thoughts in discord on this matter.

Its massively cheating and a total shame this module has been released. Frankly wreckless to the competitive league scene for worms.

Using your memory is a key skill of this game. There is a big difference between using paper and pen aids to support you, which are prone to human error and take some attention away from the turn/game. Having a tool that automates this for you, gives you enemy worm order, or even your own on screen is a massive advantage and creates an uneven playing field.

Worms is a turn based strategic game, this module is cheating in the same degree as an aimbot. Because aiming is all about memory too.

I personally feel anyone using this module in any leagues should be banned and games voided.

I don't think it's so cut and dry Chicken -- while I agree that one side having this information and the other not is a huge advantage and shouldn't be allowed in league games generally, I do think it's worth discussing the actual value of worm order memorization. As mentioned in this thread there's a lot of minutiae with regards to worm order. Players can create almost indistinguishable worm names where only they know the difference at a glance.. having to figure out what the difference is and straining your eyes to figure out what a worms name is is not my idea of fun or strategically interesting. It's also pretty common for players to keep notes on frequent opponents' worm names and to keep notes while playing on turn order and weapon usage. Isn't it sort of an unfair advantage to have a built-up repository of opponents' worm orders? Should we all be creating new teams every time we play competitively to mix up our opponents? It just seems super tedious and lame to me that the game comes down to keeping notes and trying to confuse opponents with new teams.

That being said, I do like the memorization aspects of worms, so I wonder if there could be some changes to the game itself that could remove the tedium while keeping the fun parts. What if there was a scheme option that forced all worms to have random, readable names at the beginning of a game? That way neither player has the advantage of knowing the worm order from the start and there's more strategy involved in hiding the order using selects. That same scheme option could force all worm names to be "Worm {N}" so that both players know both teams' worm orders. You may think that takes away from the game, but I actually think it has the potential to add depth when it's clear that both players know the order, especially at the lower-mid skill levels. It lowers the barrier for players with less experience being able to make more strategic decisions.

Awesome, this will be very helpful to practice deathmatch speedruns! I don't think it should be allowed in the runs themselves, but super helpful for people like me that need to memorize the teams orders. Much more fun to do it in-game as opposed to reading off a spreadsheet.

Quote from: TheWalrus on September 11, 2021, 12:38 AM

Quote from: Syc on September 10, 2021, 07:38 AM
Just used some of your methods and I managed a 422 messing up in a few places. Let's go for that sub 400!

that fall in the hole up top was hilarious, you could have had a very low 400s time, nice run

Yeah.. I didn't know that was possible.. derp

Just used some of your methods and I managed a 422 messing up in a few places. Let's go for that sub 400!

Wow nice 405 -- I need to give it another go. I have a better replay but it's using an alpha so I need to have DC decrypt it I guess.

I should clarify my last point in that I don't think knowing which worm is up next is a boring part of the game.. just that knowing the worm team order itself is. Knowing which worm just went and which one is next based on worms alive is much more interesting. Those are aspects of the game that are lost on the majority of players *because* of how boring memorizing or writing down a team's worm order is.

Quote from: Komito on September 10, 2021, 12:58 AM
The big deal is many people tend to think only in the moment, they don't contemplate what these decisions could lead to in the future.

Once we've reached a precipice, and the flood gates are open, things could get out of hand exponentially, which is why I personally think it would be best for Team17 to officially manage wormkit modules in future, if at all possible.

T17 isn't going to get involved in any way, they don't care about W:A. Deadcode may want to intervene and I suppose I would be fine with that. The main downside is that he would probably need to make changes to the game to make it harder to use approved wormkit modules, and that's precious time that could be spent working on other cool features!

Quote from: Komito on September 10, 2021, 12:58 AM
Using blank names is not allowed in TUS, correct me if i'm wrong though i'm sure it's not allowed in CWT or ONL either.

Even if blank names aren't allowed, you can just make names that are sufficiently difficult to distinguish.. it's just an obnoxious part of the game. I hardly ever see people abuse it, but I would also welcome the ability to disable opponents' customizations.

Quote from: Komito on September 10, 2021, 12:58 AM
Although that is a subjective opinion, to be fair, i'd rather people didn't do that if possible, though I feel it's a much better alternative to having the game automatically track your opponents teams and weapons.

We could put a poll out but I'm guessing I'm not the minority in thinking that managing worms turn order is kind of a tedious and lame part of the game, especially when you bring in hard-to-differentiate or offensive worm names.

Also, we really shouldn't be discouraging programmers who are interested in w:a to get involved by making modules or external tools unless it's going to really hurt the game. It's creative and talented people who have kept this community alive for so long!

I'm passionate about that fact because working on W:A community websites and tools when I was a kid was actually what got me excited about programming that ultimately led to my profession.

Historically W:A has mostly been a game of trust and good sportsmanship. It does seem like the use of wormkit modules could get out of hand, but honestly at this point the competitive scene of W:A is pretty casual, with only a few cups and tournaments even having prize pools at all. What's the big deal if someone goes through all the trouble to use a module that gives them a slight advantage? If it starts making the game less fun for people it should be addressed, but being overly principled about it doesn't really move the community forward. I think in general the benefits of wormkit modules being released at a rapid rate outweigh the cost currently. Some of them motivate features to be added to the core game and some of them are huge quality of life improvements. I personally only really use wkSuperFrontendHD right now and tend to prefer using officially supported features, but I don't really have a problem with opponents using modules that remap keys or show my team's worm order.

For the worm order one, the fact that players can (and do) make worm names that all render the same as an empty space in-game means that there should be an in-game option to disable user-set names. It would then default to Worm{1-8}, which effectively shows turn order. I really don't think that impacts the game negatively in any way. Writing worm order on a sheet of paper or having to memorize different teams you've played with before is a lame "skill" that really just gets in the way of everyone enjoying the deeper strategy involved.

I think we're doing a pretty job getting our games in -- I think we're on pace for going to knockouts relatively soon!

I believe "won rounds" is computed incorrectly. I think it's adding up both players' won rounds instead of just considering them a team. Check it out on the current T17 cup:



Maybe in this case the Won column should be "1/2" for blitzed/Aladdin? And if the bo3 had been 2:1 instead, then it would be "0/1" for Mablak/dario?

I agree with Albus that knowing worms order makes the game more interesting and competitive, not less so. The "skill" of memorizing your opponents turn order by their chosen names is pretty boring, and with so many ways to try and throw people off with garbage names it's just a lame part of the game. I agree that if only some people have access to the turn order then it's lame.. so it should just be part of the game

If I'm reading this correctly though, this module doesn't give you access to opponents' turn order right?