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Messages - Masta

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1
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: Yesterday at 05:22 PM »
As long as a for example a trick race challenge replay can't be voided because a mexican swoosh was performed by accident instead of a swoosh (unless it is clearly stated in the description of the challenge that a mexican swoosh doesn't count as swoosh) I don't have an issue. We seem to have a fundamental disagreement about the importance how rope tricks look to determine what that trick is and that's fine. If I was abrasive, difficult or a smart ass at points in the discussion I apologize.

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Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: Yesterday at 04:19 PM »
I'm asking you to be on the latest version of the game, press Shift + 0 + 9 and take an extra 5-10 seconds to check rare edge cases. You are asking me to always be unsure if I actually did a trick and having to restart mid-game to check. You are asking a lot more of me than I am asking of you.

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Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: Yesterday at 03:41 PM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 24, 2024, 05:08 PM
I measure every move based on what you see with the normal frame by frame replay
In this case you can't see the grenade touching the wall. In your view does this mean the bounce doesn't count and that the red team didn't win the game? It looks like the grenade was repulsed by a magnetic force, perhaps you would like to say it was repulsed instead of bounced in this case? The replay is attached.


A scenario where two players are playing trick race:
Quote
*Player 1 does a swoosh after 10 minutes of trying*
Player 2: That was kind of close to the edge, let's close the game and look at the replay frame by frame to make sure it wasn't a mexican swoosh.
*Turns out it was a mexican swoosh*
Player 2: You must try to do it again, you didn't do a swoosh. Now let's start the game, teleport back to our old positions and resume playing.
This is unreasonable and cumbersome to me. This scenario is one practical reason for why I'm arguing against the notion that how it looks is what counts. It's so this doesn't become the way we have to do things, as you say f that.

4
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 24, 2024, 11:47 AM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 05:19 PM
This is why I absolutely LOVE getting into friendly forum confrontations with people!

You find out cool shit like this all the time!

Just discovered a new rope move, after so many years, not every day you get that!
I do recognize this trick as its own thing. For me it's more about the trick being executed on the first possible frame than how it looks. If a trick recognition system is ever implemented I think it would be cool if tricks that are executed on the first possible frame had some sort of distinction. It could have a different text color or be described as "Perfect", "Perfect Swoosh" for example. Other tricks could have a "Perfect" variant as well. For shadows it would be when the rope is only visible for one frame on the tap and for outlaws and spikes it would be when the rope is released on the first frame you bounce off a surface. Many other tricks may have a "Perfect" variant as well.

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Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 24, 2024, 09:57 AM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 04:38 PM
If anything though, I'm glad we've had this little discussion because we've actually discovered a new move, the mexican swoosh! That's the most exciting thing I got from this entire escapade!
Yes that's funny, as I've said that totally could be its own trick. I hope you take this away from the discussion too: you need to do testing before making claims. Even if you think you're 100% sure there may be a small detail about how the game works that you have forgotten. Be careful not to state your opinions as facts when it's critical that your own opinions don't come through as facts. That way when someone is asking for advice they can make their own informed decision.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 04:38 PM
If you want this to change, then tell Deadcode to make the frames properly visible
There's no technical reason for why there must be a 1 frame delay on the rope release in the first place, at least that I can think of. It should be possible keep track of a few variables and apply those variables on the frame the rope is actually released. That would make the ninja rope more responsive, fun and intuitive.

6
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 23, 2024, 04:11 PM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
It is not an incorrect assumption.
It is an incorrect assumption, you and Triad did not and still do not have the same view of what a swoosh is. To you it looks like an arch so you have the opinion that it isn't a swoosh, for Triad it is enough that the rope shoots to the right if even if it looks like it would be an arch on the last frame the rope is visible. (03:40.60 in the replay)

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!
You yourself wrote earlier in this thread that what is and isn't a trick is a matter of opinion, so why are you stating it as a fact that it's not a swoosh?
It looks like an arch because the rope undergoes a frame of internal motion before being released.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh.
In the context of this challenge that is what constitutes as a swoosh, here in this challenge that is in fact a swoosh.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle
That isn't the angle we were discussing. We were discussing the angle of the rope on the frame after the last frame the rope is rendered (03:40.62 in the replay). You said that angle would be at best totally vertical, but it is actually sloped slightly to the right.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM
Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant
It's relevant to determine a correct result in the context of this challenge, where if the rope shoots to the right after release even if it looks like an arch it's considered a swoosh.

7
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 23, 2024, 09:58 AM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 21, 2024, 06:32 PM
If that picture is where he activates drill then it's not a swoosh it's an arch.

If he's going ------------------>
You either wrote this with the assumption that Triad's views on what constitutes a swoosh is the same as yours, which is an incorrect assumption otherwise the score would not have been changed back to 99. Or you didn't know when writing this that the rope undergoes 1 frame of motion internally before being released and you wrote something wrong based on a lack of knowledge of how the game works.

Quote from: Masta on April 21, 2024, 08:46 PM
Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 21, 2024, 08:51 PM
Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
You were wrong about the angle, it is in fact at an angle that is sloping slightly to the right.

8
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 22, 2024, 07:41 PM »
Here is a video of the swoosh at the slowest playback speed. You can see this for yourself by pressing Shift + 0 + 9

9
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 22, 2024, 06:42 PM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 22, 2024, 06:24 PM
By my definition, the last frame you see the actual rope is what counts.
That's not how the game works, you are wrong.
Quote from: Deadcode on October 09, 2017, 03:14 AM
The last rope angle rendered before releasing the rope is never the same as the angle at which the next rope will be shot, unless the rope is perfectly still when released. This is because the rope internally undergoes a frame worth of motion before being released.

10
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 22, 2024, 05:52 PM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 22, 2024, 03:23 PM
there is no "official" way of doing any move on the rope, its basically what people agree on.
I agree, but that isn't what I'm disputing.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 21, 2024, 08:51 PM
Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 21, 2024, 10:46 PM
My definition of a swoosh though, is when the rope is past the perfect vertical point moving downwards

I found the rope attachment position and the worm position at the frame of rope release by looking at the game's memory values.
Rope attachment position: 3100.1880340576171875 pixels
Worm position:            3103.64398193359375   pixels

As you can see the the worm is more than 3 pixels further to the right than the rope attachment position.

What this means is that the rope can't be perfectly vertical, in fact it's angled slightly to the right. You should be able to see this for yourself using TA by not releasing the rope.
Even by your own definition it was a swoosh, and you were wrong to assume that the rope would not go past perfectly vertical.

11
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 22, 2024, 08:58 AM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 21, 2024, 10:46 PM
To be honest, I've never seen it actually written anywhere. My definition of a swoosh though, is when the rope is past the perfect vertical point moving downwards, basically, the image that Triad showed but the worm would be on the other side at the same point.

That's how I've known it for over 20 years personally.

For the Challenge, it's up to the moderator, so up to Triad really.
The looks-like-a-swoosh-quacks-like-a-swoosh-but-isn't-actually-a-swoosh could be a its own trick if someone wills it enough, I won't argue about that. I'll say this, you were wrong to advice with certainty based only on an assumption.

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Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 21, 2024, 09:59 PM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 21, 2024, 08:51 PM
totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
Um actually, when going to the right a swoosh is possible at 90° . ☝️🤓

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Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« on: April 21, 2024, 08:46 PM »
Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.
Quote from: Deadcode on October 09, 2017, 03:14 AM
The last rope angle rendered before releasing the rope is never the same as the angle at which the next rope will be shot, unless the rope is perfectly still when released. This is because the rope internally undergoes a frame worth of motion before being released.

14
Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #840, BiG RR Challenge Series #11
« on: April 09, 2024, 08:27 AM »
I'm glad we are on the same page about time investment. Playing on the same map for more than 90 min is usually enough for me to get bored and start to lose focus. I read what you said as indirectly suggesting that someone should try to do a sub 180 on this map, that's why I made the sub 190 suggestion to you. If you want to do a certain time on a map you should do so at your own discretion and because it's a goal you set for yourself, that's how I feel at least. My apologies if I misunderstood.

As for analogue keyboards I would feel bad for using one in combination with finger rolling. The tapping speed you gain with finger rolling and the additional tapping control needed feels balanced to me, but the nature of analogue switches kind of negates the finger control aspect. I'm also afraid I will lose the finger control I've built up over the years and become dependent on analogue switches.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 07, 2024, 10:54 PM
@Masta(or anyone else), if you watched the TA run I did, are there any parts you saw and think could be done more optimized to save some seconds?
Here are a couple of moves that could improve the run, it's just my intuition that it's faster so I can't guarantee a time save:

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Challenges Comments / Re: Challenge #840, BiG RR Challenge Series #11
« on: April 08, 2024, 11:41 AM »
Quote from: TheKomodo on April 07, 2024, 10:54 PM
Damn Masta... Very nice run! Impressive it was about 1 second to my original Save State replay run!
Thanks, it could have been faster without the fall so I'm a bit disappointed but there is still a bunch of time to save as you have shown.

Quote from: TheKomodo on April 08, 2024, 03:55 AM
It's stringing them all together that would make anyone who could pull it off, the greatest roper that has ever lived. :D
I don't agree with this or even care the only reason I would try to do it is if you did a sub 190 as my goal for this map is to be 10s faster than you.

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