Challenges
May 03, 2024, 03:04 PM

NdSC #42

Challenge #892, Viewed 1441 Time(s)

Basic Information
Rate challenge
5 / 5
Total Members Voted: 3
Name: NdSC #42
Type: Misc
Moderator: Turkey Triad

Started: April 21, 2024, 10:08 AM
Expire time: April 28, 2024, 10:30 AM

EXPIRED
You can still submit your time. But you won't recieve the 4 points as it is not the current challenge anymore.

Challenge maps:
Scheme File(s): scheme Darts

Description:
Welcome to new dS challenge #42 hosted by




Get the highest score with 1 team of 8 worms.

If you're not sure about general rules and gameplay of darts, click here, there's also a description of how to score spiked and rebounded worms.



Special Rules for this map:

Teleport your worms to start. Then:
  • Attach rope to wall to the left.
  • Rattle your worm between walls next to start and fly to lower right wall.
  • Use first bounce to fly to upper left wall.
  • Again, use first bounce, and fly to upper right wall.
  • Swoosh to the target on your first bounce.

Gif Demo:




Maximum possible score: 120



NdSC List & Ladder: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/ds-ds-challenges/ndsc-list-ladder-27138/



Gl, hf, and may the darts be with you!
Name: Horror by XanKriegor
Best Record: 117 by TheKomodo
Pending times: 0
Number of members participated: 4
Number of Records: 9

Download Map:
Downloaded 372 time(s)
Recorded Country Player Recorded Groups Record Replay Map Points Posted Overall Points Overall Rate Info
1st United Kingdom TheKomodo ICB a2a dS 117pts
p:00:11
20 April 24, 2024, 06:30 PM 1,727 Fairly Competent
2nd Ukraine Shtaket ICB tr rrX 111pts
p:00:00
15 April 22, 2024, 08:53 PM 6,101 Elite
2nd Turkey Triad UC dS AbC 111pts
p:0:00
15 April 24, 2024, 04:55 PM 2,562 Elite
3rd Russian Federation kirill470 24pts
p:00:00
10 April 21, 2024, 10:24 AM 2,328 Field Marshall

Statistics of this challenge

Points Overall Points Overall Rate
United Kingdom TheKomodo 25 1,727
Turkey Triad 20 2,562
Ukraine Shtaket 20 6,101
Russian Federation kirill470 15 2,328

Author Topic: Challenge #892, NdSC #42  (Read 1578 times)

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Offline Masta

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #15 on: April 22, 2024, 06:42 PM »
By my definition, the last frame you see the actual rope is what counts.
That's not how the game works, you are wrong.
The last rope angle rendered before releasing the rope is never the same as the angle at which the next rope will be shot, unless the rope is perfectly still when released. This is because the rope internally undergoes a frame worth of motion before being released.

Offline TheKomodo

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2024, 07:12 PM »
That's not how the game works, you are wrong.

What do you mean that's not how the game works you just literally quoted Deadcode saying that's HOW the game works!

I am not debating how it works with the rope never being the same angle at which the next rope will be shot. I'm saying what I've always regarded as a swoosh and it's not what Shtaket did here. The frame that Triad showed, if you release the drill ON THAT FRAME, it is not a swoosh because the last frame of the rope that you saw is actually extending outwards from the middle to the left. If it was a swoosh it would be extending from the middle to the right AS you press the spacebar/enter button.

It is not just the angle the rope shoots that dictates what a swoosh is, it's also the position of the rope as you shoot. It is not a proper swoosh, period.


Offline Masta

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #17 on: April 22, 2024, 07:41 PM »
Here is a video of the swoosh at the slowest playback speed. You can see this for yourself by pressing Shift + 0 + 9

Offline Triad

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #18 on: April 22, 2024, 07:53 PM »
Here is a video of the swoosh at the slowest playback speed. You can see this for yourself by pressing Shift + 0 + 9

Wow, didn't know "Shift + 0 + 9" could render the hidden frames like that.

@Triad & Shtaket - Decided to play for 20 minutes just to tie. :P
Haha, it would be fun if we end this with three gold medalists, it is something that has never happened in a Darts challenge before.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2024, 07:55 PM by Triad »



Offline TheKomodo

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2024, 08:04 PM »
Ok, for starters, showing hidden frames doesn't count, you don't see that with normal speed frame by frame, that's like sub frame or something??

But the picture that Triad showed, and the game I was asked to check, if you released the drill on THAT frame, it would NOT be a swoosh:

These are the 2 pictures frame by frame in order:

Frame 1:


Frame 2:


There is NO in between! It is NOT a swoosh!

The rope is on the LEFT side as the drill is fired, it's NOT a swoosh!

If you fired a rope instead of a drill, the rope DOES shoot out to the right, but it's still not a genuine swoosh because the rope was extending outwards the wrong direction.

As I said before, it's something PERFECTLY in the middle of an arch/mexi and a swoosh.

It is released at the last point of being an arch/mexi, but connects like a swoosh, so it's like a mexican swoosh.

Offline FoxHound

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Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2024, 01:34 AM »
:
So I went with rope directions personally since then. But it is true that there are no official descriptions for many tricks. Maybe creating a rope tricks section on WKB with the help of the freestyle/trick community might solve this ambiguity for some tricks (and more importantly, it would be a great resource for newbies).

I'm looking for a roper (player) to help me on this task for years. Nobody ever accepted the idea. It is a lot of work and complicated, sure. But, if I had more knowledge about the tricks I would do this myself long time ago. Even with my limited knowledge I always think about starting the idea and see how people react to fix the article if needed. At least the very basic tricks. If a roper be available and want to work on this project, let me know. I can do the stuff myself, I just need someone to correct me and some orientation on how it should be done better.



Honestly I wonder if in all those 13000 posts Komodo has, he ever admitted he is wrong. I mean, sometimes saying you are wrong or accepting what people say is more important than winning the discussion, or to be always right. I know that it is a grey area situation, but sometimes I think the discussions are endless and the strategy is to never admit things to make them longer, to post more until the other person that has less free time to occupy its had with these discussions give up reading dozens of walls to argument in vain.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2024, 01:58 AM by FoxHound »
I doubt you see this link moving below (you will have to zoom in. If you click at it, you will have maden the impossible):
'

Offline XanKriegor

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2024, 02:46 AM »
How about this?



Since the target board at Swoosh It! is way lower than farer in relation with the rope bend point, I always thought you should start drilling when your worm is at less than 45° angle to hit it.


Offline Gabriel

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Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2024, 02:56 AM »
i always thought mexi was over a chunk of terrain, and arch was over a pole or something  ???
Mole shopper is the worst thing in the world.

Offline Masta

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2024, 09:58 AM »
If that picture is where he activates drill then it's not a swoosh it's an arch.

If he's going ------------------>
You either wrote this with the assumption that Triad's views on what constitutes a swoosh is the same as yours, which is an incorrect assumption otherwise the score would not have been changed back to 99. Or you didn't know when writing this that the rope undergoes 1 frame of motion internally before being released and you wrote something wrong based on a lack of knowledge of how the game works.

Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.
Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.
You were wrong about the angle, it is in fact at an angle that is sloping slightly to the right.

Offline TheKomodo

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2024, 12:56 PM »
You either wrote this with the assumption that Triad's views on what constitutes a swoosh is the same as yours, which is an incorrect assumption otherwise the score would not have been changed back to 99. Or you didn't know when writing this that the rope undergoes 1 frame of motion internally before being released and you wrote something wrong based on a lack of knowledge of how the game works.

It is not an incorrect assumption.

That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!

Triad changed it to a swoosh because when I used TA if I released rope ON THAT FRAME it shot right even though the rope was facing left.

I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh. So I assume he changed it.

If the score has been changed back then its because after further conversation about what is and isn't an actual swoosh we've came to the conclusion that it is indeed NOT a swoosh.

Conversation over.

Quote
You were wrong about the angle, it is in fact at an angle that is sloping slightly to the right.

I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle

It also is possible for the rope to be perfectly vertical, albeit you can't be moving from side to side only up and down.

Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant anyway since it's still not a swoosh either way because the last frame you see the rope it's on the left not the right.

The point wasn't so much that the rope WOULD be totally vertical, but that it's not a swoosh because the rope disappears before the point of ACTUALLY BEING vertical... Had you released drill on that frame it's the last frame you would see the rope therefore "at the best it would be vertical" meaning that you simply wouldn't see the rope on the right side.

Sure I was wrong about the rope being actually vertical but that wasn't really what I was getting at anyway lol.



Also, at foxhound, I've admitted to being wrong thousands of times in my life, usually on stream or in person mostly. On forums I usually do my research BEFORE posting so it's rarer to be wrong on forums than in person. It had happened plenty though...

You have an unhealthy obsession with my word/post count... I've said countless times to countless people when I've been wrong and that I actually LOVE being wrong when it's proven because everything I know I was taught by other people anyway and when I'm wrong and someone shows me the truth, I'm growing as a person and that's a good feeling.

Though everytime you say this shit foxhound... Sigh... It's as if you want me to just say I'm wrong all the time for no reason. Like you want me to be a pushover, an absolute wimp who doesn't have the courage to defend his beliefs... F that.

If I believe I am right then I take it as far as possible until someone has proof I'm wrong and then I'll probably thank them for taking the time to teach me and share with me.

Forums are but a fraction of my life, stop worrying about me being right or wrong and just focus on the truth whether IT is right or wrong because that's more important than me anyway.

It would be nice if you joined in the discussion and only spoke about the discussion and stop babbling on about another person's post count or whatever, that's not important, the truth is.

If my posts are too long and you are too lazy or not interested enough to read them entirely, then I honestly don't give a f.

Deal with it.



So yeah, when it comes to rope tricks and stuff...

We base it on what we can see not hidden frames and things that haven't been rendered yet. Or, at least, I always have and always will anyway because it makes more sense and is easier to check and see for all without needed TA or knowledge about how the game renders stuff.




Offline FoxHound

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Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2024, 02:24 PM »
Also, at foxhound, I've admitted to being wrong thousands of times in my life.
I was just wondering. Thanks for the answer. Still, usually you admit you are wrong in minor details, but the major point of the discussion you go endlessly, and you don't seem to change your point of view. Usually the discussion doesn't end, people just stop replying your posts.

You have an unhealthy obsession with my word/post count...
I think you have more obsession on this than me. I'm not the only one complaining here publicly that your posts are often exhaustive/excessive. I usually participate the discussions and argument, specially when is a subject that I have interest or that I have knowledge about. You never seen me discussing about keyboards for example.

everytime you say this shit foxhound... Sigh... It's as if you want me to just say I'm wrong all the time for no reason.
You know I agree with many of your thoughts and opinions. You are not wrong all the time. And I admire your love to this game and all the dedication you have here in TUS and in WA community. I like your streams, I like you. I like your laughs during your streams.

F that. [...] honestly don't give a f.
Ok, but you should know your behavior may cause conflicts and problems socially speaking, no matter if you cares about it or not.
I doubt you see this link moving below (you will have to zoom in. If you click at it, you will have maden the impossible):
'

Offline Triad

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2024, 02:53 PM »
Triad changed it to a swoosh because when I used TA if I released rope ON THAT FRAME it shot right even though the rope was facing left.

I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh. So I assume he changed it.
Yeah. Personally, rope direction is my only requirement for a swoosh. My though process was as follows:
  • Swoosh is a rope trick.
  • Let's assume we are playing Trick Race, and the next trick is a swoosh. Realistically speaking, you cannot see the exact pre-release rope angle during the game; if the post-release firing angle is to the right direction, then you assume it should be a swoosh, and not an arch.
    • Even if this is not a real swoosh, I believe swooshes should be retconned as such. Otherwise, will we check every suspicious swoosh at Trick Races, just as we check for possible sitters at BnG?
  • Since you activate drill at Darts, and not shoot rope again, I decided to check rope angle, but now I realize that rope angles are not really trustworthy due to hidden frames.
  • Thanks to TA, I was able to see the potential rope angle, and I believe it should be the only requirement.
    • Swooshes on Darts maps are a remix of the original swoosh. And as I said, while we're playing any roping scheme. we'd only check the shooting angle, so that's why I also applied this principle to Darts.
    • Even at Darts, you wouldn't pay attention to pre-release rope angle if the swoosh WAS NOT THE LAST TRICK BEFORE THE DRILL. For example, if it was Swoosh to Deviation, you'd only pay attention to post-release firing angle.
Tbh, it doesn't really matter anymore; Shtaket already improved his run anyways.

I'm looking for a roper (player) to help me on this task for years. Nobody ever accepted the idea. It is a lot of work and complicated, sure. But, if I had more knowledge about the tricks I would do this myself long time ago. Even with my limited knowledge I always think about starting the idea and see how people react to fix the article if needed. At least the very basic tricks. If a roper be available and want to work on this project, let me know. I can do the stuff myself, I just need someone to correct me and some orientation on how it should be done better.
Maybe I can help with some stuff. Indeed, it would be better to start with the core tricks first, then you would be able to explain the more complex ones easier. For example, if you know what Spikes and Shadows are, it'd be easier to understand Wizards, because a Wizard is essentially a Spike+Shadow. And if you understand Wizards, then you can understand Warlocks, because a Warlock is a Swing+Wizard.

Speaking of WKB articles, we (probably me and Komo) also need to improve the Darts article.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2024, 03:18 PM by Triad »



Offline TheKomodo

Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2024, 04:07 PM »
    I was just wondering. Thanks for the answer. Still, usually you admit you are wrong in minor details, but the major point of the discussion you go endlessly, and you don't seem to change your point of view. Usually the discussion doesn't end, people just stop replying your posts.

    Well yeah, often we all get minor details wrong... It's like you're trying to tell me the sky is blue right now, that humans need oxygen to survive and that 2 + 2 = 4.

    Yes, of course I go on endlessly, I like to talk and debate... Do you think I'm the only one though? I mean think about it... If I am going on "endlessly" then surely it takes 2 to tango right?

    So why do you blame ME alone, when there are so many other people who also go "endlessly" with me, because I obviously don't do it alone... Why is it ok for other people to "go on endlessly" WITH ME but for me it's such a problem to do it back to them lol?

    Your logic is flawed FoxHound.

    I think you have more obsession on this than me. I'm not the only one complaining here publicly that your posts are often exhaustive/excessive. I usually participate the discussions and argument, specially when is a subject that I have interest or that I have knowledge about. You never seen me discussing about keyboards for example.

    Nah, I'm perfectly fine, it doesn't take long to write or read my posts at all. You say it the most recently though, it's pretty funny.



    Let's do some math though... When I look at the "Members" there are 252 pages, 30 members per page, on the last page there is only 4 so 7560 minus 26 is that's 7534.

    Out of 7534 people who have signed up to TUS, minus let's say, 100 of those accounts that are probably Sir-J.

    7434 people who have signed up to TUS.

    Now, it's always the same 2-10 people who complain about the size of my posts, at the very most, I'd say about 30 or 40 people unique players over the entire span of TUS timeframe have ever complained about the length of my posts.

    If we just say 40 though(keep in mind this is being generous), that's 0.538068335% of TUS users have complained about my posts being "exhaustive/excessive".

    Now that we know it's a VERY SMALL minority of users who actually have an issue with my posts and openly speak out about it.

    I'm not going to get my knickers in a twist over 0.5% of TUS players who complain about the way I write. Not to mention that the majority of that 0.5% are people I don't even consider friends or friendly so I'm pretty happy here.

    Now, obviously all those TUS accounts, probably half of them are inactive...

    Even if 25% of people didn't like my posts, it still wouldn't be enough to be a problem.

    So clearly the problem is you, and the rest of the minority that have the issue, after all, it's your issue, not mine.

    :P

    Ok, but you should know your behavior may cause conflicts and problems socially speaking, no matter if you cares about it or not.

    Don't worry about me, I fully understand the butterfly effect.

    • Since you activate drill at Darts, and not shoot rope again, I decided to check rope angle, but now I realize that rope angles are not really trustworthy due to hidden frames.
    • Thanks to TA, I was able to see the potential rope angle, and I believe it should be the only requirement.
      • Swooshes on Darts maps are a remix of the original swoosh. And as I said, while we're playing any roping scheme. we'd only check the shooting angle, so that's why I also applied this principle to Darts.
      • Even at Darts, you wouldn't pay attention to pre-release rope angle if the swoosh WAS NOT THE LAST TRICK BEFORE THE DRILL. For example, if it was Swoosh to Deviation, you'd only pay attention to post-release firing angle.

    As I've said multiple times already, this is neither an arch, a mexi or a swoosh, it's something new entirely.

    I'm just calling it a mexican swoosh because it's perfectly in the middle of being both while being neither.

    Personally speaking, I'd still void that turn though, the rope has to be on the direction you're actually doing the swoosh for it to be a genuine swoosh, not the opposite side. When I made the first Darts map to use a swoosh, that's what I had in mind at least.

    If the entire community and game developers decide otherwise, then fair enough, I'll have to accept that is is their choice to agree on that but I'll still say it's not a genuine swoosh whenever it's my decision.

    However, this is Triads challenge, he decides.[/list]

    Offline Masta

    Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
    « Reply #28 on: April 23, 2024, 04:11 PM »
    It is not an incorrect assumption.
    It is an incorrect assumption, you and Triad did not and still do not have the same view of what a swoosh is. To you it looks like an arch so you have the opinion that it isn't a swoosh, for Triad it is enough that the rope shoots to the right if even if it looks like it would be an arch on the last frame the rope is visible. (03:40.60 in the replay)

    That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!
    You yourself wrote earlier in this thread that what is and isn't a trick is a matter of opinion, so why are you stating it as a fact that it's not a swoosh?
    It looks like an arch because the rope undergoes a frame of internal motion before being released.

    I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh.
    In the context of this challenge that is what constitutes as a swoosh, here in this challenge that is in fact a swoosh.

    I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle
    That isn't the angle we were discussing. We were discussing the angle of the rope on the frame after the last frame the rope is rendered (03:40.62 in the replay). You said that angle would be at best totally vertical, but it is actually sloped slightly to the right.

    Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant
    It's relevant to determine a correct result in the context of this challenge, where if the rope shoots to the right after release even if it looks like an arch it's considered a swoosh.

    Offline TheKomodo

    Re: Challenge #892, NdSC #42
    « Reply #29 on: April 23, 2024, 04:38 PM »
    It is not an incorrect assumption.
    It is an incorrect assumption, you and Triad did not and still do not have the same view of what a swoosh is. To you it looks like an arch so you have the opinion that it isn't a swoosh, for Triad it is enough that the rope shoots to the right if even if it looks like it would be an arch on the last frame the rope is visible. (03:40.60 in the replay)

    What are we even talking about now?

    I am saying that me saying it's not a swoosh, was not an incorrect assumption.

    It was not a proper swoosh, so therefore it was not an incorrect assumption, Triad hasn't even got anything to do with this specific point.


    That picture, it's not a swoosh it's an arch!
    You yourself wrote earlier in this thread that what is and isn't a trick is a matter of opinion, so why are you stating it as a fact that it's not a swoosh?
    It looks like an arch because the rope undergoes a frame of internal motion before being released.

    I'm stating it as a fact that my opinion is a swoosh, the opinion itself isn't a fact other than the fact itself being that the fact IS an opinion.

    As in, the fact of the matter is that it's an opinion.

    Also, internal motion doesn't count... It's what we SEE that counts. And it's not a swoosh.



    Trust me, I understand exactly what you are saying.

    It still doesn't make it a swoosh if you don't SEE the rope actually ON the right side!

    That's why when you explain to someone HOW to actually do a swoosh you say "Up and over and down" or "Up and release PAST the vertical point".

    As in you release the rope AFTER the point, not before it.

    You can clearly see in the picture above that it was released BEFORE you can see the rope on the right side.

    If you want this to change, then tell Deadcode to make the frames properly visible, then we'll talk, until then, it's not a proper swoosh by the definition of a swoosh I've always been told, taught and lead to believe otherwise. This goes back BEFORE TA even existed.


    I said if the only requirement to be a swoosh is to fire rope right then sure its a swoosh.
    In the context of this challenge that is what constitutes as a swoosh, here in this challenge that is in fact a swoosh.

    I can't argue with that!

    If you guys want to label this as a swoosh, even if it doesn't actually meet all the traditional requirements of what people assumed a swoosh actually is historically, even if I don't like it, I've got no choice but to accept that so that's fair enough.

    I am not wrong about the angle you can see in the picture that the rope is going left from the middle
    That isn't the angle we were discussing. We were discussing the angle of the rope on the frame after the last frame the rope is rendered (03:40.62 in the replay). You said that angle would be at best totally vertical, but it is actually sloped slightly to the right.

    I see what the problem is now:

    Unfortunately that's not how the ninja rope works, there's quirk with the rope making it so it should be released 1 frame earlier than what the rendered frame is showing.

    Yeah but at best it would be totally vertical, and still not a swoosh.

    Yeah I was wrong about that, thinking about 2 different things at the same time.

    So yeah, ignore that, yes I said that but it's bullshit and not what I actually wanted to say. I corrected it in the last time I addressed you.

    Though yes, I'll admit I temporary forgot about the pre-frame thing. Which is irrelevant
    It's relevant to determine a correct result in the context of this challenge, where if the rope shoots to the right after release even if it looks like an arch it's considered a swoosh.

    It's irrelevant because it doesn't matter anymore, Triad added it, then deleted it, then added it again, but Shtaket went ahead and got a better score anyway so it's irrelevant now.

    Yes, it's relevant to this challenge to all agree on what IS a swoosh in the event that happens, but irrevelant to the original point I was trying to make which is that it SHOULDN'T count because it's not a genuine swoosh!

    If the last frame you see of the rope, is sticking up to the left, while you're travelling right to do a swoosh, then it's not a swoosh because the rope HAS TO BE VISIBLE on the right to actually be a swoosh.

    I don't even care if Triad or you don't agree with me, that's what I've always believed a swoosh is, and what I will always continue to believe.

    If anything though, I'm glad we've had this little discussion because we've actually discovered a new move, the mexican swoosh! That's the most exciting thing I got from this entire escapade!

    It's not a mexi, it's not a swoosh, it's a mexican swoosh! :D