Author Topic: Challenge #595, TT Big RR #3 (Read 14126 times)

Sbaffo · « **Reply #60 on:** February 06, 2016, 09:09 AM »

Whatever you're a loss of time

TheKomodo · « **Reply #61 on:** February 06, 2016, 09:36 AM »

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 09:09 AM

Whatever you're a loss of time

Why, because I think you're a cheater lol? You are the one with an unfair advantage not me lol...

I've been playing WA since 1999, when people didn't do that kinda stuff, people had to practise for such a long time to master the 1 spacebar roping, 2 or more spacebars is just a lazy and unfair way of learning this faster and with advantage.

Adding ANY kind of extra advantage is cheating as far as i'm concerned, and 2 spaces IS without a doubt an advantage, especially in TTRR where it's all tight.

Like, in Formula One they have speed restrictions so it's fair for everyone, I feel like 2 spacebars is like breaking that restriction in a competitive enviroment.

It's ridiculous it's even allowed.

I highly doubt when they were making the Worms series they had people using multiple spacebars in mind...

The ONLY reason i've ever heard of, why 2 spacebars should be allowed is because a few keyboards with 2 spacebars exist out there somewhere, not good enough...

Oh and:

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 07:30 AM

Komo anyone can use fr with 2 spaces but it requires skillz too. It's not about advantage, i feel more comfortable with 2 spaces, so why shouldn't i use them?

Using 2 spacebars doesn't require as much skill and time as learning to use 1.

Sbaffo · « **Reply #62 on:** February 06, 2016, 09:51 AM »

I'll explain why you're a loss of time

EVERY ttrr player knows that ARROWS are more important than spaces, the advantage comes from there. I've been using 2 spaces for at least 4 years, and realized recently that it doesn't matter how much you tap because arrows makes the real difference, as a veteran you should know that, or you've never known it as you've never been good enough at this scheme? This is what i always recommened to anyone asked me to get better with rope. There are thousands of players that use 2 spaces but not many know HOW to use them. Also have you noticed that most of the top rr players use 1 finger? I'd accept this kind of reprimand only if you were good enough at ttrr.

Kradie · « **Reply #63 on:** February 06, 2016, 10:43 AM »

There are only opinions that has been stated so far. In order to end this debate, proof accompanied with facts needs to be documented and be brought forward. Otherwise, we will be trapped in an endless circle of disagreement

Someone eligible should put this task to the test. Is FR a cheat or not? Is it harder or easy to learn it? Should it be encouraged? Even allowed in league?
I am glad this with Runaway is settled, now let's finish this debate once and for all.

TheKomodo · « **Reply #64 on:** February 06, 2016, 10:56 AM »

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 09:51 AM

EVERY ttrr player knows that ARROWS are more important than spaces, the advantage comes from there.

No, every good ROPER knows arrows are more important than spaces, but that isn't what my point is.

Learning how to control Rope with arrows isn't an advantage when every single keyboard has arrows, not every single keyboard has multiple arrows.

This is why 2 or more spacebars is an advantage because not all keyboards have them and not every person knows about keychangers etc.

I told you this assuming you knew what the word advantage means, but apparently you didn't...

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 09:51 AM

I've been using 2 spaces for at least 4 years, and realized recently that it doesn't matter how much you tap because arrows makes the real difference, as a veteran you should know that, or you've never known it as you've never been good enough at this scheme?

So you've been cheating for at least 4 years, k...................

True, arrows make the real difference, but I would guess if you took 100 people and trained 50 with FR/Multiple spaces and 50 with Single spacebar no FR, the FR/Multiple spacebars would be better.

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 09:51 AM

This is what i always recommened to anyone asked me to get better with rope. There are thousands of players that use 2 spaces but not many know HOW to use them.

So you recommend people should cheat instead of learning how to play normally? That's lame...

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 09:51 AM

Also have you noticed that most of the top rr players use 1 finger? I'd accept this kind of reprimand only if you were good enough at ttrr.

The top players in any scheme are the top players because they have the most passion for the scheme, and have practised more, regardless of technique, with the exception imo of Anubis in Warmer because he's a cheater/modder and admitted it, which is why I don't consider him the best.

Also, this has nothing to do with my skill, or yours, at TTRR, I consider myself a very experienced Roper, but TTRR is just not a scheme I enjoy as much so I don't practise it to the extent that you do.

Quote from: Kradie on February 06, 2016, 10:43 AM

Someone eligible should put this task to the test. Is FR a cheat or not? Is it harder or easy to learn it? Should it be encouraged? Even allowed in league?

It's irrelevant, you can't detect it which is why people get away cheating this way

TheWalrus · « **Reply #65 on:** February 06, 2016, 10:59 AM »

Komo is right about it being an advantage, otherwise why would people do it? They wouldn't. Everyone would try it, and then stop using it. Lets just get that part in our collective heads, it IS something that gives a player the edge.

The extent of how much an advantage it is, is up for interpretation. I'd say only a slight advantage, and nothing game breaking. No different then the macros people use for hysteria, I've noticed it has been rampant since I came back to worms in 2011. TUS has looked the other way on that, and should certainly look the other way on this.

If this sort of thing should be outlawed, the ship sailed on that 6-7 years ago. It's been around for so long its part of worms now, if you guys haven't noticed this community is resistant to change of any kind.

XanKriegor · « **Reply #66 on:** February 06, 2016, 11:22 AM »

We are all kind of professional (cyber)athletes here. We are taking any possible advantage to win. FR, kb mods, remapping - its all like a steroids and shit in real life sports. Non-TUS ropers dont play for money, points or anything, they dont need to take steroids, they are "clean" sportsmen. They are like amaterur atletes. Pros and amateurs... different leagues that shouldnt be mixed. If a "clean" sportsman can beat "dirty" one - fame to him. But he should be aware who he gonna compete with.

Sbaffo · « **Reply #67 on:** February 06, 2016, 11:31 AM »

Komo wanna play bo/15 roper? I'll film my self while playing with 1 spacebar then to prove that you're wrong

TheKomodo · « **Reply #68 on:** February 06, 2016, 11:43 AM »

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 11:31 AM

Komo wanna play bo/15 roper? I'll film my self while playing with 1 spacebar then to prove that you're wrong

Prove me wrong about what?

And what is Bo15 Roper gonna prove?

You play Roper A LOT more than I do, so obviously you are gonna be warmer than me, maybe play someone who has played a lot of Roper recently?

It's not a very clever idea tbh... I don't understand what your point is either...

Sensei · « **Reply #69 on:** February 06, 2016, 12:01 PM »

Double space is not a problem in this game. Problem is that ppl will always look for smth just to give them edge above others. Especially in roping.

Let's talk about offline challenges. Couple of days ago, 1 wormer sent me his TT Big RR replay with time of 240 sec, and asked me can I see he's using cheat by naked eye. Ofc, I couldn't see it.. Asked him: what's the catch? How can you have time of 240 sec, when I know your best time should be between 300-350. Then he told me he used program that can slow down the pace of the game and help you rope without mistakes whole turn. He was playing on 40% speed, but in the replay - it was looking like every other normal turn.
Only guys like StepS, CS, Deadcode.. could see that's not legit.

I know best times in challies are done by ppl that proved theirselves as best ropers over the years, in million online games.. But, only the thought there is possibility to get even better just with turning on that "cheat" is what makes me angry.

So.. yeah.. there's million ways to pretend you're better then you really are, and I, personally, have pitty for that ppl. But it obviously can't be stopped. Double space is nothing compared to other stuff there. At least - nothing to worry about...

xSniperx · « **Reply #70 on:** February 06, 2016, 12:07 PM »

Okay because I'm only guy using one space my time is clearly the best, I'll take gold please.
Also komo play me bo 9000 bng and I'll beat you one game .

Sbaffo · « **Reply #71 on:** February 06, 2016, 12:14 PM »

I dom't play roper often, it's my worst roping scheme, i wanna prove you're totally wrong about the advantage shit. If i've been "cheating" all these years then i shouldn't be able to beat a veteran like you.

TheKomodo · « **Reply #72 on:** February 06, 2016, 01:00 PM »

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 12:14 PM

I dom't play roper often, it's my worst roping scheme, i wanna prove you're totally wrong about the advantage shit.

Sbaffo, you still aren't fully grasping the point I am making...

I said it's an advantage, I didn't say it was beatable or unbeatable...

People can have advantage in life like have rich parents, but still live a crap life...

Plus I am talking about Roping in general, not just 1 scheme.

Quote from: Sbaffo on February 06, 2016, 12:14 PM

If i've been "cheating" all these years then i shouldn't be able to beat a veteran like you.

If you win or if you lose doesn't prove anything lol, Phil Taylor is the greatest Darts player of all time but Gary Anderson beat him to win Championship...

And cheating doesn't automatically mean you never lose lol, people can cheat and still suck, but it's still cheating

Sbaffo · « **Reply #73 on:** February 06, 2016, 01:14 PM »

I knew i shouldn't have argued with you, you're just making so many fuss. Bye.

Sensei · « **Reply #74 on:** February 06, 2016, 01:29 PM »

Quote from: Komito on February 06, 2016, 01:00 PM

People can have advantage in life like have rich parents, but still live a crap life...

Plus I am talking about Roping in general, not just 1 scheme.

Lold

	Player	Recorded Groups	Record	Replay	Map Points	Posted	Overall Points	Info
1st	Shtaket		205.82s	p:04:04	20	February 15, 2024, 01:09 PM	6,116	Downloads Downloaded 40 time(s). 3 members and about 37 guests have downloaded this replay. Triad February 16, 2024, 11:21 AM Rocket February 16, 2024, 08:16 PM kirill470 February 17, 2024, 09:20 PM
	Shtaket	FAW`	221.88s	p:00:38	0	January 22, 2018, 05:24 PM	6,116
	Shtaket	FAW`	226.95s	p:01:07	0	December 05, 2017, 01:47 PM	6,116	Downloads Downloaded 307 time(s). 1 members and about 306 guests have downloaded this replay. kirill470 December 07, 2017, 04:11 PM
2nd	Masta	BRB	207.38s	p:00:00	15	January 29, 2016, 05:38 PM	8,415	Downloads Downloaded 467 time(s). 25 members and about 442 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei January 29, 2016, 06:36 PM xSniperx January 30, 2016, 01:28 PM TheKomodo January 30, 2016, 03:27 PM rUNaW4y January 30, 2016, 03:30 PM aik January 30, 2016, 08:09 PM pavlepavle January 31, 2016, 04:04 AM timo January 31, 2016, 08:01 AM Kemba January 31, 2016, 07:44 PM ieatwormz February 01, 2016, 11:34 PM Spoon_head February 05, 2016, 09:16 AM Xrayez February 05, 2016, 11:29 AM Kradie February 05, 2016, 11:01 PM piki1802 February 05, 2016, 11:51 PM vesuvio February 06, 2016, 12:20 AM MonkeyIsland February 06, 2016, 07:44 AM WTF-8 April 15, 2016, 11:50 PM mae April 16, 2016, 01:02 AM orbik August 29, 2016, 08:03 PM rokkudo December 29, 2018, 10:46 PM Saint May 23, 2019, 04:52 PM Bl4st3r July 18, 2019, 12:55 AM xnd January 29, 2022, 07:12 AM
3rd	Sbaffo	420	222.06s	p:7:12	10	January 23, 2016, 03:27 PM	1,957	Downloads Downloaded 517 time(s). 13 members and about 504 guests have downloaded this replay. ExZo January 23, 2016, 03:35 PM blitzed January 23, 2016, 04:34 PM Sensei January 23, 2016, 04:40 PM Vojske January 24, 2016, 02:39 PM h3oCharles January 24, 2016, 03:06 PM Doppeltod January 24, 2016, 03:42 PM aik January 24, 2016, 03:44 PM xnd January 25, 2016, 05:55 AM ieatwormz January 25, 2016, 07:42 PM rUNaW4y January 26, 2016, 10:07 AM Kemba January 26, 2016, 12:54 PM vesuvio February 06, 2016, 03:02 PM
4th	TheWalrus		226.86s	p:0:00	5	April 05, 2024, 03:19 AM	2,389	Downloads Downloaded 16 time(s). 1 members and about 15 guests have downloaded this replay. Triad April 05, 2024, 11:20 AM
5th	CoolMan89		229.06s	p:00:20	4	July 01, 2017, 03:04 PM	1,669	Downloads Downloaded 443 time(s). 2 members and about 441 guests have downloaded this replay. kirill470 July 02, 2017, 06:03 AM Dulek July 03, 2017, 07:36 PM
	CoolMan89		235.92s	p:00:00	0	February 05, 2016, 08:25 PM	1,669	Downloads Downloaded 440 time(s). 1 members and about 439 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 08:53 PM
6th	xnd		229.68s	p:00:00	3	February 01, 2016, 02:19 AM	1,015	Downloads Downloaded 525 time(s). 5 members and about 520 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 01, 2016, 04:38 AM xnd February 01, 2016, 04:49 AM MonkeyIsland February 02, 2016, 06:20 AM rUNaW4y February 02, 2016, 09:26 AM Senator February 05, 2016, 05:18 PM
7th	Kemba	FAW`	240.26s	p:08:36	2	February 01, 2016, 09:06 PM	1,161	Downloads Downloaded 496 time(s). 1 members and about 495 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 02, 2016, 08:19 PM
8th	RIP		247.74s	p:0:00	1	January 24, 2016, 01:37 AM	1,200	Downloads Downloaded 564 time(s). 3 members and about 561 guests have downloaded this replay. ExZo January 24, 2016, 06:46 AM Sensei January 24, 2016, 09:13 PM rUNaW4y January 26, 2016, 11:20 AM
9th	timo		262.42s	p:11:45	0	May 19, 2016, 08:20 AM	1,736	Downloads Downloaded 596 time(s). 1 members and about 595 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei May 19, 2016, 06:20 PM
10th	ExZo	FAW`	264.14s	p:0:00	0	January 24, 2016, 06:52 AM	1,052	Downloads Downloaded 639 time(s). 6 members and about 633 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei January 24, 2016, 09:14 PM rUNaW4y January 26, 2016, 11:19 AM Kemba February 07, 2016, 04:21 PM MonkeyIsland June 12, 2016, 04:46 AM Shtaket December 05, 2017, 01:48 PM Ryan July 27, 2019, 01:04 PM
	ExZo	FAW`	273.3s	p:0:00	0	January 23, 2016, 05:36 AM	1,052	Downloads Downloaded 628 time(s). 4 members and about 624 guests have downloaded this replay. spleen17 January 23, 2016, 02:54 PM Sensei January 23, 2016, 04:43 PM MonkeyIsland June 12, 2016, 04:46 AM
11th	spleen17		269.3s	p:0:00	0	January 23, 2016, 03:17 PM	1,485	Downloads Downloaded 584 time(s). 2 members and about 582 guests have downloaded this replay. ExZo January 23, 2016, 03:34 PM Sensei January 23, 2016, 04:41 PM
12th	Husk		273.78s	p:0:00	0	February 05, 2016, 04:58 PM	5,233	Downloads Downloaded 411 time(s). 1 members and about 410 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 05:03 PM
13th	Bl4st3r		275.78s	p:00:00	0	July 18, 2019, 01:26 AM	1,046	Downloads Downloaded 345 time(s). 3 members and about 342 guests have downloaded this replay. Triad July 18, 2019, 12:27 PM kirill470 July 20, 2019, 07:26 AM Bl4st3r July 27, 2019, 11:28 AM
14th	xSniperx		287.02s	p:0:00	0	February 05, 2016, 07:52 PM	1,354	Downloads Downloaded 538 time(s). 2 members and about 536 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 08:14 PM xSniperx August 29, 2016, 08:00 PM
	xSniperx		297.68s	p:0:00	0	February 04, 2016, 12:00 AM	1,354	Downloads Downloaded 523 time(s). 2 members and about 521 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 04, 2016, 11:04 AM xSniperx February 04, 2016, 03:25 PM
15th	Sensei		289.24s	p:00:00	0	February 05, 2016, 01:15 PM	1,232	Downloads Downloaded 474 time(s). 2 members and about 472 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 01:15 PM
16th	Xrayez		296.94s	p:0:00	0	February 05, 2016, 11:46 AM	1,901	Downloads Downloaded 658 time(s). 1 members and about 657 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 12:51 PM
17th	h3oCharles		497.2s	p:0:00	0	January 21, 2016, 05:14 PM	1,088	Downloads Downloaded 594 time(s). 4 members and about 590 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei January 21, 2016, 05:42 PM ExZo January 22, 2016, 06:13 PM h3oCharles January 22, 2016, 06:36 PM rUNaW4y January 26, 2016, 11:34 AM

	Player	Recorded Groups	Record	Replay	Map Points	Posted	Overall Points	Info
1st	Masta	BRB	207.38s	p:00:00	20	January 29, 2016, 05:38 PM	8,415	Downloads Downloaded 467 time(s). 25 members and about 442 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei January 29, 2016, 06:36 PM xSniperx January 30, 2016, 01:28 PM TheKomodo January 30, 2016, 03:27 PM rUNaW4y January 30, 2016, 03:30 PM aik January 30, 2016, 08:09 PM pavlepavle January 31, 2016, 04:04 AM timo January 31, 2016, 08:01 AM Kemba January 31, 2016, 07:44 PM ieatwormz February 01, 2016, 11:34 PM Spoon_head February 05, 2016, 09:16 AM Xrayez February 05, 2016, 11:29 AM Kradie February 05, 2016, 11:01 PM piki1802 February 05, 2016, 11:51 PM vesuvio February 06, 2016, 12:20 AM MonkeyIsland February 06, 2016, 07:44 AM WTF-8 April 15, 2016, 11:50 PM mae April 16, 2016, 01:02 AM orbik August 29, 2016, 08:03 PM rokkudo December 29, 2018, 10:46 PM Saint May 23, 2019, 04:52 PM Bl4st3r July 18, 2019, 12:55 AM xnd January 29, 2022, 07:12 AM
2nd	Sbaffo	420	222.06s	p:7:12	15	January 23, 2016, 03:27 PM	1,957	Downloads Downloaded 517 time(s). 13 members and about 504 guests have downloaded this replay. ExZo January 23, 2016, 03:35 PM blitzed January 23, 2016, 04:34 PM Sensei January 23, 2016, 04:40 PM Vojske January 24, 2016, 02:39 PM h3oCharles January 24, 2016, 03:06 PM Doppeltod January 24, 2016, 03:42 PM aik January 24, 2016, 03:44 PM xnd January 25, 2016, 05:55 AM ieatwormz January 25, 2016, 07:42 PM rUNaW4y January 26, 2016, 10:07 AM Kemba January 26, 2016, 12:54 PM vesuvio February 06, 2016, 03:02 PM
4th	CoolMan89		235.92s	p:00:00	5	February 05, 2016, 08:25 PM	1,669	Downloads Downloaded 440 time(s). 1 members and about 439 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 08:53 PM
3rd	xnd		229.68s	p:00:00	10	February 01, 2016, 02:19 AM	1,015	Downloads Downloaded 525 time(s). 5 members and about 520 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 01, 2016, 04:38 AM xnd February 01, 2016, 04:49 AM MonkeyIsland February 02, 2016, 06:20 AM rUNaW4y February 02, 2016, 09:26 AM Senator February 05, 2016, 05:18 PM
5th	Kemba	FAW`	240.26s	p:08:36	4	February 01, 2016, 09:06 PM	1,161	Downloads Downloaded 496 time(s). 1 members and about 495 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 02, 2016, 08:19 PM
6th	RIP		247.74s	p:0:00	3	January 24, 2016, 01:37 AM	1,200	Downloads Downloaded 564 time(s). 3 members and about 561 guests have downloaded this replay. ExZo January 24, 2016, 06:46 AM Sensei January 24, 2016, 09:13 PM rUNaW4y January 26, 2016, 11:20 AM
7th	ExZo	FAW`	264.14s	p:0:00	2	January 24, 2016, 06:52 AM	1,052	Downloads Downloaded 639 time(s). 6 members and about 633 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei January 24, 2016, 09:14 PM rUNaW4y January 26, 2016, 11:19 AM Kemba February 07, 2016, 04:21 PM MonkeyIsland June 12, 2016, 04:46 AM Shtaket December 05, 2017, 01:48 PM Ryan July 27, 2019, 01:04 PM
	ExZo	FAW`	273.3s	p:0:00	0	January 23, 2016, 05:36 AM	1,052	Downloads Downloaded 628 time(s). 4 members and about 624 guests have downloaded this replay. spleen17 January 23, 2016, 02:54 PM Sensei January 23, 2016, 04:43 PM MonkeyIsland June 12, 2016, 04:46 AM
8th	spleen17		269.3s	p:0:00	1	January 23, 2016, 03:17 PM	1,485	Downloads Downloaded 584 time(s). 2 members and about 582 guests have downloaded this replay. ExZo January 23, 2016, 03:34 PM Sensei January 23, 2016, 04:41 PM
9th	Husk		273.78s	p:0:00	0	February 05, 2016, 04:58 PM	5,233	Downloads Downloaded 411 time(s). 1 members and about 410 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 05:03 PM
10th	xSniperx		287.02s	p:0:00	0	February 05, 2016, 07:52 PM	1,354	Downloads Downloaded 538 time(s). 2 members and about 536 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 08:14 PM xSniperx August 29, 2016, 08:00 PM
	xSniperx		297.68s	p:0:00	0	February 04, 2016, 12:00 AM	1,354	Downloads Downloaded 523 time(s). 2 members and about 521 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 04, 2016, 11:04 AM xSniperx February 04, 2016, 03:25 PM
11th	Sensei		289.24s	p:00:00	0	February 05, 2016, 01:15 PM	1,232	Downloads Downloaded 474 time(s). 2 members and about 472 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 01:15 PM
12th	Xrayez		296.94s	p:0:00	0	February 05, 2016, 11:46 AM	1,901	Downloads Downloaded 658 time(s). 1 members and about 657 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei February 05, 2016, 12:51 PM
13th	h3oCharles		497.2s	p:0:00	0	January 21, 2016, 05:14 PM	1,088	Downloads Downloaded 594 time(s). 4 members and about 590 guests have downloaded this replay. Sensei January 21, 2016, 05:42 PM ExZo January 22, 2016, 06:13 PM h3oCharles January 22, 2016, 06:36 PM rUNaW4y January 26, 2016, 11:34 AM

	Points	Overall Points
Norway	25	8,893
Italy	20	3,135
Brazil	15	1,943
Russian Federation	15	22,460
United Kingdom	11	9,569
Bangladesh	10	1,678
Serbia	9	2,209
Croatia	5	2,136
Finland	5	6,395
Ukraine	5	8,090
Poland	5	7,492

	Points	Overall Points
BRB	25	1,977
420	20	1,712
FoS	20	3,728
tr	17	6,952
dS	16	12,060
FAW`	16	2,942
a2a	15	3,247
b3	13	1,089
sW	10	2,066
l3x	8	1,547
sK	7	1,347
ZaR	6	5,079
NBR	6	1,929
che	5	9,053
pH	5	2,721
bf	5	3,372
HCP	5	2,220
TdC	5	7,720

	Points	Overall Points
Masta	25	8,415
Sbaffo	20	1,957
xnd	15	1,015
CoolMan89	10	1,669
Kemba	9	1,161
RIP	8	1,200
ExZo	7	1,052
spleen17	6	1,485
Sensei	5	1,232
Husk	5	5,233
xSniperx	5	1,354
Xrayez	5	1,901
h3oCharles	5	1,088

TT Big RR #3

Challenge #595, Viewed 13903 Time(s)

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Statistics of this challenge

Author Topic: Challenge #595, TT Big RR #3 (Read 14126 times)