Write leagues system from scratch

[franz]

But it's fairly redundant to take steps to make the seasonal ratings approximate the overall ratings, at a certain point they just become the overall ratings again. If you're looking for long-term accuracy, you might as well just look at the overall ratings. And I think incorporating any historical element would be harmful to activity, because certain people will start with advantages and disadvantages, which makes the prospect of a new season seem unappealing, since the whole concept is about getting a fresh start.

the point of the system isn't to predict how seasons will end with overall ratings.. but to properly distribute points according to skill level -> the rest is up to you.  every new season still starts fresh, and there's nothing unappealing about getting rewarded the appropriate amount of points. you say certain people will start with advantages and disadvantages?  care to explain what they are?

And your concern about people just playing a few games is valid, but because it's so few games, I don't think it can compromise the system greatly. The system would still be highly balanced if the majority of active pros play at least say, 15 or so games. In any case, I don't feel like the best players typically go a season with only a few games; when they know they can at least do the bare minimum to make it into playoffs, they often will, at least that's been the case in NNNL.

compromising the system greatly or not, I felt it was worth mentioning because it does bring at least some level of imbalance to the system. perhaps even comparable to the imbalance in the other system that comes from when a player's true skill isn't yet reflected in their overall rating. -> though that's a problem that time and more games can fix.

[Mablak]

But it's fairly redundant to take steps to make the seasonal ratings approximate the overall ratings, at a certain point they just become the overall ratings again. If you're looking for long-term accuracy, you might as well just look at the overall ratings. And I think incorporating any historical element would be harmful to activity, because certain people will start with advantages and disadvantages, which makes the prospect of a new season seem unappealing, since the whole concept is about getting a fresh start.

the point of the system isn't to predict how seasons will end with overall ratings.. but to properly distribute points according to skill level -> the rest is up to you.  every new season still starts fresh, and there's nothing unappealing about getting rewarded the appropriate amount of points. you say certain people will start with advantages and disadvantages?  care to explain what they are?

It seems like any form of 'properly distributing points' will keep things very close to the way they currently are on TUS. Which has the noticeable problem of discouraging high level players from playing once they have a high overall rating, because it necessarily gives them the seasonal disadvantage of getting much fewer points from most players. And we just don't have enough high level players for them to stick to playing amongst themselves as MI intended.

The biggest flaw I can think of in properly distributing points based on skill level is the very fact that people start with the same number of points in a season. The idea of properly distributing points is dependent on good players already having points; if they don't, then although we know them and recognize their skill level, their skill is not accurately represented by the system. The main reason the system treats a pro player as it does is because it expects them to have excess points, and if they don't, then the exchange formula is rather... pointless, pun intended.

Even if TUS was tweaked to allow such players to gain a bit more than they do now and not be at such a disadvantage, it would still be too much of a hindrance for people like me, who would prefer to make it as high up as possible. If the most competitive players are being denied the chance to compete to their best potential, it just kills activity.

[OldBeast]

But it's fairly redundant to take steps to make the seasonal ratings approximate the overall ratings, at a certain point they just become the overall ratings again. If you're looking for long-term accuracy, you might as well just look at the overall ratings. And I think incorporating any historical element would be harmful to activity, because certain people will start with advantages and disadvantages, which makes the prospect of a new season seem unappealing, since the whole concept is about getting a fresh start.

the point of the system isn't to predict how seasons will end with overall ratings.. but to properly distribute points according to skill level -> the rest is up to you.  every new season still starts fresh, and there's nothing unappealing about getting rewarded the appropriate amount of points. you say certain people will start with advantages and disadvantages?  care to explain what they are?

And your concern about people just playing a few games is valid, but because it's so few games, I don't think it can compromise the system greatly. The system would still be highly balanced if the majority of active pros play at least say, 15 or so games. In any case, I don't feel like the best players typically go a season with only a few games; when they know they can at least do the bare minimum to make it into playoffs, they often will, at least that's been the case in NNNL.

compromising the system greatly or not, I felt it was worth mentioning because it does bring at least some level of imbalance to the system. perhaps even comparable to the imbalance in the other system that comes from when a player's true skill isn't yet reflected in their overall rating. -> though that's a problem that time and more games can fix.

you could kinda achieve that by setting up some sort of elo system mixed with player Value Points,
player gets a higher or lower ValuePoint(good or bad) during the season and according to that u give either less or more points for a win or lose

you could also give a different VP rating for different schemes so its balanced any how,
like if ure good in RR u have high VP coz u won alot and end up getting less points for a win vs a low vp rating
but in BNG u suck and have a low vp coz u lost many, and get more points vs a high vp

and u can have a good view of which squads have more Higher vp's etc etc

*didnt read alot of posts on this topic so if it might been said before ignore this XD

[franz]

It seems like any form of 'properly distributing points' will keep things very close to the way they currently are on TUS. Which has the noticeable problem of discouraging high level players from playing once they have a high overall rating, because it necessarily gives them the seasonal disadvantage of getting much fewer points from most players. And we just don't have enough high level players for them to stick to playing amongst themselves as MI intended.

you have it wrong -> having a high overall rating doesn't hurt your own seasonal performance. you're confusing this way with how TUS currently is.. and that's the important difference. there is no 'seasonal disadvantage of getting fewer points from most players' -> you start at 1000 season rating like everyone else and gain/lose points according to other people's overall rating.  so no, you don't have to only stick to playing amongst other high level players -> you're even free to play 'noobs' if you want since losing won't hurt your seasonal rating as much compared to overall rating now and winning gets you more points compared to overall rating now.

The biggest flaw I can think of in properly distributing points based on skill level is the very fact that people start with the same number of points in a season. The idea of properly distributing points is dependent on good players already having points; if they don't, then although we know them and recognize their skill level, their skill is not accurately represented by the system. The main reason the system treats a pro player as it does is because it expects them to have excess points, and if they don't, then the exchange formula is rather... pointless, pun intended.

huh?  I fail to see the connection between the inability to properly distribute points based on skill level and the fact that people start with the same number of seasonal points in a season.  their skill is accurately represented by the system with their underlying overall rating ->  and their seasonal skill is accurately represented by their seasonal rating. your last sentence about 'excess points' didn't make any sense to me, so you can elaborate on that more if it's important.

Even if TUS was tweaked to allow such players to gain a bit more than they do now and not be at such a disadvantage, it would still be too much of a hindrance for people like me, who would prefer to make it as high up as possible. If the most competitive players are being denied the chance to compete to their best potential, it just kills activity.

again I fail to see how you're hindered with a high overall rating.. when it's other people's overall ratings that affect your seasonal rating going up and down.

[Ray]

[offtopic]I had the urge to start reading all this, understand it and form my own opinion, but with that effort I could read a good book. You guys will figure it out allright, I'm sure. [/offtopic]

[TheKomodo]

Yeah Ray, what is the point in this, NO ONE will ever agree to some new system, everyone thinks they have the answer and everyone else come out with reasons why it isn't such a good idea.

They all try to hard to make something not work, that we'll never have a chance lol.

[franz]

ray, I understand if HHC's big text, and then reading this whole thread looks like too much effort, but this isn't just about something unimportant. it's about the most important part of how the league runs. so if you do feel like you would want to have your opinion heard on such an important topic, I encourage you to put however much effort it takes to read this whole conversation. otherwise, if you really do just trust others to make the best decision, then you can just sit back, np 

komo, this conversation here is actually coming along well, and most everyone has posted really good opinions. you shouldn't just say 'there is no point in even doing this discussion' and that's it is because 'NO ONE will ever agree to some new system.' if that's the case, then what is the point in doing ANYTHING where not everyone agrees? this discussion exists to peacefully exchange ideas so that hopefully the best possible solution for the league gets used. no one here is strictly looking for failures in other people's ideas just to only prove that their idea is the best.. -> what's happening is we are looking for all possible pro's and con's so that the most informed decision can be made. cheers ;p

[TheKomodo]

franz, that's all very well said, but none of you can agree on anything, none of you realise that ALL these ideas are better than the current system, so just f@#!ing pick one and test it, if it fails, we try the next one the next again season, what's the big deal?

[franz]

komo, at least read MonkeyIsland's first post and understand that this discussion is going exactly how he wanted it to.. so try not to casually throw words around like "just f@#!ing pick one and test it." he wants this to continue until 23th February. no one is in a hurry here except you it seems. relax ;x

here's what he said:

There are 29 days left for the current classic/TEL leagues to finish and I'm trying to run the new leagues system straight after that. So, I'm putting every idea on the table.

I'll accept league plans till 23th February so that in the next remaining days I have time to code the ideas.

[TheKomodo]

Yeah I know mate, I ain't angry or anything, it's just the way I speak lol.

Every single one of your ideas are good, better than what we have, each of them have different flaws, but flaws that are nowhere near as bad as the current, they all seem good to me.

[mirux]

I do not understand but admire you people to take the time to read and post such long posts/texts to contribute to this game and community.

[MonkeyIsland]

No post here in a week. By the look of it, we have a full detailed of HHC plan and Mablak's suggestion for a system like NNN's.

[Chicken23]

I have been trying to read this thread for over a week now. Its been hard but i want to give my opinion on the matter. There are still methods to this new system that i am abit confused over.

First of all i agree that the tus system does need a change, but i agree due to different reasons. My opinions are similar to RoK. I agree that there is a massive advantage for players to gain seasonal points and to make PO spots easly and how players with a high overall ratings are discouraged from playing.
But we do have the number of games and winning precentages for a reason and thus RoKs first post of placing more focus on overall and viewing the standings differently was something i would of agreed with. I think its fair for players like zippo and random00 to keep making playoffs every season if they meet the requirements because they deserve these spots based on their great overall performances within the TUS league.

The problem that i see with tus for the players who have ratings which are not low so they cant gain easy seasonal points, but not the highest like random00 and zippo and struggle to make the top 4 overall points. The players who are between the top 25-10 overall ratings, it can be hard for them to make the seasonal points, and harder to get the top 4 overall.

Therefor i would of agreed with roks idea of changing the system to make more po spots for overall, and a couple of places for seasonal, however this would just minimc the FB system and that lost activity because people were tired of seeing the same top overall players making playoffs and noobs/not best allrounders felt they couldnt reach those top end of the overall ranking.




So i read HHCs plan with interested, i like how seasonal points are calculated and it seems like a fair enough way, but what i dont understand is that if no playoff spots are determined from an overall rating (because these are being kept to determine the seasonal points u gain) then how does having a high overall rating not become a disadvantage?

If you seasonal points are calculated with seasonal and overall, surely its a handicap to have a higher overall? It means your going to lose more points regardly because you are ranked higher than a noob, which is fair, but isnt it giving noobs and new players an advantage at the start of every new season when the seasonal points are reset back to 1000? I think i understand you can play enough games and you will catch up sesonally to your overall but im still confused.

I would like that explained.. i tried to find an answer but it still feels that way. I think having this system put in place is a good idea, it creates a solution to the seasonal points problem of the current ELO rating but i still think a couple of playoff spots should be assigned to your overall rank because i feel there is that disadvantage to anyone with an amazing overall they are going to gain less points? prehaps i have the run end of the stick?

[HHC]

If you seasonal points are calculated with seasonal and overall, surely its a handicap to have a higher overall? It means your going to lose more points regardly because you are ranked higher than a noob, which is fair, but isnt it giving noobs and new players an advantage at the start of every new season when the seasonal points are reset back to 1000? I think i understand you can play enough games and you will catch up sesonally to your overall but im still confused.

In my system it is not your own overall rating that is used to calculate how much points you get in a match, it's only your opponent's.

You gotta see it as a skill indicator, to see how strong one's opponent is (and thus how many points he's worth).

For example:
Random is worth 1456, Rocket is worth 1050, HHC is worth 875. (These are the overall ratings ).

At the start of the season everyone is at 1000. Both Chicken (overall rating 1030) and Csongi (rating 1400).

Only the opponent's overall rating is taken into consideration. Which means if you Tom win against Random you win for example 65 points. When Csongi wins against Random he will also win 65.
When you beat Rocket you gain 45, same as Csongi. And for HHC you both get 28 points.

Your overall rating doesn't influence the amount of points you win (or lose), only the skill level of your opponent matters. (And this skill level is determined by his overall ranking).


In my alternative version (which takes the average of the opponents overall and seasonal) the same applies. Your own overall rank isn't used for calculation, it's only your opponents performance both in this season and overall that matters.


I hope you understand now Chicken. The overall ranking here is only used to see how strong the opponents you beat are. That's it.

[Chicken23]

So if you have a high overall it won't effect the amount of points you gain or lose because you are only taking into account the overall of your opponent??

Could you in theory go pro hunting to just gain points off higher ranked overall players?

What are the point differences like if random00 loses games against players with a lower overall/season?

Shouldnt in theory i deserve to win more points off random than csongi because he is of a similar skill level (from his overall being closer to randoms)??