Write leagues system from scratch

[TheKomodo]

Why exactly do most people want the system changed?

The way I see it, the ELO system is very very effective and accurate where points are concerned, but some people are only bothered by the fact it's  too hard to make the Playoffs because of losing too many points even though your win % is really good, and some people just don't like losing alot of points regardless of Playoffs.

Can't you just change the requirements for reaching Playoffs? Instead of basing it on points, base it on Games played and % alone:

70 games - 65% of games won.

This way, it will be the players who are in best form that will make it to the Playoffs, you might be thinking, what if 20 players or more qualify how can you decide who makes the cut? Easy, just select in order the players who have played the most games with the highest win percentage.

You also might be thinking, what if someone just noob bashes their way to the Playoffs to get a high % of wins, again the answer is quite simple, just pass a rule they must play a variety of good players within their games played for that Season, I think the ea community is responsible and professional enough to decide how to handle that, perhaps even having respected and responsible Players we can trust decide for us and judge, I would chose from SPW, Franz, Random00, Mir, Free, and Mablak, we should be professional enough to implement some form of moderating noob bashers like this, I think a system like this could really be the answer.

I honestly believe it doesn't matter what point system we use, the problem to make Playoffs will always be part of Leagues on WA due to the vast difference of skill levels and good players stuck in the middle or close to the top, but not close enough to qualify with Overall because they keep losing the odd game to players with bad ratings.

People will still want to try and be in the "Top 10" Overall, so winning points is still an important part for Overall, while making Seasonal (basically only for Playoffs anyway) focus on players who actually deserve to be in the Playoffs.

I've been thinking about this idea for a few days now, and I actually think this could be the solution we have all been waiting for.

[DarkOne]

ELO wasn't designed for this sort of thing, it was a system devised to get a number that displays someone's skills. But it's designed as a continuous thing, meaning it takes a while to get to the top and it takes a while to get out of it.

And I don't think something arbitrary like that should be added to decide who makes it to the playoffs because there are plenty of options available that don't require this sort of thing.

[TheKomodo]

And I don't think something arbitrary like that should be added to decide who makes it to the playoffs because there are plenty of options available that don't require this sort of thing.

Like what? Every single thing discussed in this thread so far can, and will be abused because some players are just complete backstabbers.

We need referees that can check people are playing correctly, people we can trust, like I have just mentioned.

[Rok]

We need referees that can check people are playing correctly, people we can trust, like I have just mentioned.

I would chose from SPW, Franz, Random00, Mir, Free, and Mablak

Oh, but I would chose from: Darkmaul, chakkman, MonkeyIsland, DarkOne, C23, Leroy, Madden, Husk...

Can you see where this is going?

[TheKomodo]

Rok, hold a vote obviously...

[avirex]

i think u missed roks point completely

[TheKomodo]

I haven't avi, what's wrong with holding a vote?

It's like, when voting for a new President, or a Mayor/PrimeMinister, or a chairman/comittee/whatever,  putting your trust in people to run something.

[DarkOne]

I haven't avi

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here

It's like, when voting for a new President, or a Mayor/PrimeMinister, or a chairman/comittee/whatever,  putting your trust in people to run something.

Clearly, you put your trust in the people you'd vote for, but if you're going to put it up to a vote, and the majority votes for people you wouldn't put your trust in, that changes the deal, doesn't it?

And you're putting people in charge that are themselves eligible for the playoffs; therefore, you're letting them judge about themselves whether they qualify for playoffs and I'm not comfortable with that idea. This is also the reason why moderators don't interfere when they themselves or their clan have a complaint (Rok had one a while back for instance and he did not play a role in the decision for obvious reasons). Even though I trust every one of my fellow mods to make an honest decision, we should not allow this kind of possible bias.

And even if you don't acknowledge these problems, then there's the amount of work involved in selecting who qualifies. You'd have to sift through all their games to see who they were playing. You'd have to decide how high a percentage against top players is needed to qualify for the playoffs, You'd have to decide who is considered a top player in every respective scheme. Perhaps you need a minimum percentage of games won against those top players as well. How high is this number?

And these are just the first problems that come to mind when doing things the way you propose. I'm sure that I can find more problems with it if I really put my head to it.

There's no perfect system for deciding the playoffs. There will always be people abusing the system, though I hope we can minimise the opportunities for that. And even if they manage to abuse the system, there's always the playoffs to weed them out before the finals.

[TheKomodo]

Ok 1st off, yeah we will have to agree to disagree because it's obvious the point he was making is many people would have a different choice, hence why I said take a vote.

And if the people I voted for didn't win the vote, but someone else did, I am sure they would have a respectable amount of votes and I would be happy to have them judge the Playoffs, it's not like it's stopping anyone from playing is it?

Who said I was letting them judge themself? I didn't? But this point you make is easily avoided, hence why I suggested a variety of judges, so they can judge each other and not themselves, there is nothing bias about respectable people we trust making decisions for us(the most successful gaming leagues and sports IRL more than usually have a commitee of "moderators" or chairmen making the decisions, people others can trust, and it works), and if people think they done a poor job, which I doubt would happen, you could re-elect other players, the reason I voted for these players is because they have more knowledge of Elite and "good players" and sportsmanship than a vast amount of wormnet.

The amount of work required isn't actually as much as what you make it seem, it takes a few minutes to flick through 3-7 pages of played games checking who they have played, If 20 players had the Playoff requirements it shouldn't even take an hour, considering how important people are making Playoffs seem, I would expect them to put in a little effort to make sure things go over smoothly and fairly.

What you have mentioned are not exactly problems are they? It's more of a dis-agreement of opinion and putting trust in other people.

Now, instead of people like avi giving me crap and smiting me  just because I like to defend my ideas suggestions and opinions, why don't you take the time to realise I am trying my best here to give suggestions and ideas to help everyone out, and if you feel like you find flaws with this, just post them, with a level head, and I will reply with the same tone and try my very best to defend those accusations.

[DarkOne]

OK, the votes are in. The judges will be ShyGuy, avirex, crash, Mablak and titahemp. Not a lot of people voted, though.
Mablak unfortunately is very busy (needs to arrange his games to get them done already, so kind of cramped for time), so he can't do it.
The people you trust may not necessarily be the people someone else trusts. If the TUS awards have taught us anything, it's that.

Now, as for flicking through the results page taking only a couple of minutes, did you take anything into account about what I mentioned later on in the post? We'd need to judge on how varied the schemes have been they've played, how strong their opposition was, how good their results against these people were.

In fact, why don't you sift through Zippo's results and give me motivation on why he should qualify for the next classic league playoff (if at all). I want to hear criteria and numbers, because as you mentioned, playoffs are important and you should take qualification for it seriously. Then let me know how long it took you. Then take into account that you don't just check 8 people, since there's a general preselection of people who might be eligible, so you'd have to check through all of them individually to see who deserves it more. And you need to set them in order as well, to see who's ranked #1 for the playoffs, who's #2 etcetera.
I'm quite interested to see how you'd see the playoffs for season 17 for instance and why.
Next comes the question: how many playoff judges do you need to have to agree on eligibility? Do they all need to agree? Is 50% enough? What if 2 people seem to have equal credentials?

[TheKomodo]

My bad D1, I was talking about just TEL, that's why I mentioned players with vast knowledge of Elite.

You are completely right about TuS Classic, it would take much more time not to mention because of the different schemes harder to judge.

But talking about TEL alone, my idea is solid if people can have trust for judges, and if those judges even wanted to take the position and put a few hours in every 1-2 months checking results.

The same would work for TRL also but I would probably change my votes for the judges because it's a different scheme, so different knowledge needed.

Bearing in mind we don't really need the exact same system for every different league, this would work for TEL and TRL, it's 1 scheme each, so easy to moderate games played, the elo system of points, in my opinion is still great for overall standings, but like I said in my 1st post with this suggestion, the main thing people are concerned about is trying to make playoffs because the "point system" makes it too difficult for players close to the top, but lose a couple games, and have to win like 10+ to get those points back.

[deano]

I haven't avi, what's wrong with holding a vote?

It's like, when voting for a new President, or a Mayor/PrimeMinister, or a chairman/comittee/whatever,  putting your trust in people to run something.

The wrong people are voted into power all the time.

[MonkeyIsland]

Ok I'm starting with HHC's idea. Hold your breaths. If you have still any idea in the way, let me know since we're close to the new seasons.

[TheKomodo]

Good luck with HHC's idea.

Hi D haha, when you coming back to WA?!? Your comment is true in most politics because none of they are all useless anyway, but when it comes to smaller votes like this, I am sure there are people we can trust for this simple task.

[deano]

Hey Dave, I hope you're well.  I don't think I'll be returning, but I'll never say never.

I don't envy you MonkeyIsland, I wouldn't call this a simple task - the amount of coding required is vast, but I applaud your efforts in keeping this game alive and fresh.