Author Topic: [Classic] Elite Cup: Group Stages (IMPORTANT!) (Read 8615 times)

chakkman · « **Reply #30 on:** February 10, 2009, 05:02 PM »

I didnt rly smite you

Dario · « **Reply #31 on:** February 12, 2009, 01:51 PM »

constructive criticism:

Unique 2-1 pr
pr won 1 round against Unique, Pr and Unique played 3 rounds

Unique 2-0 f4st
f4st won 0 rounds against Unique, f4st and Unique played 2 rounds. How do you know that f4st wouldn't have won the third round?

In group stages with "best of" games and 1 round won = 1 point, some people end up playing more rounds than other people against some opponents. And it is logical to assume that someone who plays 3 rounds against a particular player (In this case Unique) has more chances of winning at least 1 round than someone who played only 2 rounds against the same particular player.

For these 1 round won = 1 point all vs all group stages, to keep things as fair as possible I think that the correct thing is to make each player play a defined and odd number of rounds against the other players. For example: 3 rounds.

Why not 2 rounds?:
Because you could get people with the same total number of rounds won (Wormer1 wins 6 rounds in total, Wormer2 wins 6 rounds in total) and that also have won and lost the same number of rounds against each other (Wormer1 1-1 Wormer2), a perfect tie*.
With 3 rounds played, one of the players will always win more rounds than the other one, so that if 2 are tied in the total number of rounds won, the one who won more rounds in the match between them has the lead (if Wormer1 has 6 points and Wormer2 has 6 points, but the result of their match was Wormer1 2-1 Wormer2, then Wormer1 will be above Wormer2 in the tables).

*A tie breaking stage after the group stage will have more or less the same result, although it might be slower. You know, if it is a tie breaking game and the one who loses doesn't get into the play-off, there is a good chance that both players will wait until they feel they are at their best level, slowing everything down (or at least giving the mods a nice headache). In contrast, making games of 3 rounds instead of "best of 3" shouldn't make the tournament go any slower (you can't say you don't have time for 3 rounds but you have time for a "best of 3" game, since the "best of 3" might last 3 rounds

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Rioter · « **Reply #32 on:** February 12, 2009, 04:43 PM »

That is a good comment, but then I could reword it to "first to two" then if you want it that way. I see what you mean.

Also, as TalkTalk's servers went down earlier this week, my internet has been directly affeceted, as in it's slowed down so bad I'm practically on dial up. This will probably affect me editing the tables for a few days, as it will take ages for the page to load (it takes 15 seconds to load the home page!) it would not be worth it. I will do an update in sixth form tomorrow.

Dario · « **Reply #33 on:** February 12, 2009, 06:07 PM »

Quote from: Rioter on February 12, 2009, 04:43 PM

I could reword it to "first to two" then if you want it that way

That wouldn't really fix what I think is wrong here: pr gets to play 3 rounds against Unique, f4st gets to play only 2. It is easier to win 1 round if you played 3 than if you played 2, therefore pr has a small advantage over f4st.
I think it would be more fair to give f4st a third round against Unique, unless you think that 0-1-0 is really different from 0-0-1 or 1-0-0 (I don't, in all the cases that is 1 out of 3).

twistah · « **Reply #34 on:** February 12, 2009, 08:56 PM »

Or just don't give any points for winning 1 round only, but the winner of the Bo3's, lols.

WookA · « **Reply #35 on:** February 13, 2009, 05:32 AM »

Quote from: twistah on February 12, 2009, 08:56 PM

Or just don't give any points for winning 1 round only, but the winner of the Bo3's, lols.

would probably be the best way

MonkeyIsland · « **Reply #36 on:** February 13, 2009, 06:22 AM »

I'm guessing it would be the best, People only play 2 rounds as Dario mentioned. We could give points for winner 2-0 (3 points), draw 1-1 (1 point to each), and 0 for lose, like FIFA world cup maybe.

darKz · « **Reply #37 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:07 AM »

Dario wasn't promoting 2 rounds but 3.

twistah · « **Reply #38 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:20 AM »

Points are pointless at all, tbh.

Player A wins all others in his group, player B wins also all but player A, A and B proceed to the next stage, case eaten.

Rioter · « **Reply #39 on:** February 13, 2009, 06:38 PM »

I'm suprised this wasn't picked up when there were cups on TuT.

Also, what about if someone wins 3-0. What happens then. :/

OK it's something to look at.

Rioter · « **Reply #40 on:** February 13, 2009, 07:01 PM »

Groups I and P have had no activity. I don't know if that is going to change over the weekend, but it's nice to get some start.

Dario · « **Reply #41 on:** February 14, 2009, 02:22 AM »

It's just a suggestion and just my opinion (although I tend to be insistent when I think something could be better

)

Quote from: twistah on February 13, 2009, 07:20 AM

Player A wins all others in his group, player B wins also all but player A, A and B proceed to the next stage, case eaten.

That's an easy one, but what about this:

Player A won all his games 2-1 (except a 0-2 vs C)
Player B won all his games 2-1 (except the 1-2 vs A)
Player C won all his games 2-0 (except the 1-2 vs B)
Player D lost all his games.

A, B and C won 3 games each, only 2 of them will make it to the group stage. The fairest way of modding such situation I can think of is to start counting who won more rounds (A=6, B=7, C=7). But A only played 2 rounds vs C and I have no idea what could have happened in a third round between A and C.
If the game B vs C (2-1) was C-B-B, and the game A vs C was C-C-?... Why not to find out what that "?" is?. What if that last round is played and it turns out to be a C-C-A? Does player A really deserve no credit at all for winning the third round while B gets credit for winning the first round?.

Quote from: Rioter on February 13, 2009, 06:38 PM

Also, what about if someone wins 3-0. What happens then. :/

3 round against every player of your group, 1 round won = 1 point. Therefore you get 3 points for a 3-0, 2 points for a 2-1, 1 point for a 1-2 and 0 points for a 0-3.

Quote from: MonkeyIsland on February 13, 2009, 06:22 AM

We could give points for winner 2-0 (3 points), draw 1-1 (1 point to each), and 0 for lose, like FIFA world cup maybe.

Player A = 9 points
Player B = 4 points
Player C = 4 points
Player D = 0 points

B vs C = 1-1. Who gets the second place in the group?. -> needs a tie breaker match that might bring more timekeeping problems (more headaches for moderators).
At this moment I don't see a difference between 2 rounds with the "2-0 = 3 points, 1-1 = 1 point" option and 2 rounds with the "2-0 = 2 points, 1-1 = 1 point" option.
So, no matter which one you choose, if you play an even number of rounds against the other wormers in your group (2, 4, 6, etc) this ties can happen. If the extra stage in the tournament (the tie breaker games stage) won't bring any timekeeping problems then I see it as an option as valid as playing an odd number of rounds (1, 3, 5, etc).

f4st · « **Reply #42 on:** February 14, 2009, 09:01 AM »

Why u use me for the example lol, im nub at elite ;(.
Btw i dont see wheres the problem since that Cup is bo3 (2-0 = fu).
If u lose 2 consecutive games against other, u sucks, so i dont see wheres the way in playing a 3rd round..

chakkman · « **Reply #43 on:** February 14, 2009, 12:24 PM »

Why you make this thing so damn complicated dario?

The thing is, Player A lost 0-2 one time. Player B won at least one round in his loss match, which means he has got one more win than Player A which puts him in front of him. Player C won 2 games 2-0, while Payer B has won 2 games 2-1 which means he has 2 more losses than Player C which puts Player C in front of him. If they would be tight in win-loss ratio i would say that the game those 2 players played vs each other counts. It has always been like that in football tourneys e.g. and i think its a pretty good system to take. Nothing unfair in it either, if you loose 2 rounds in succession you have been playing bad

.

Rok · « **Reply #44 on:** February 14, 2009, 01:57 PM »

Quote from: Rioter on February 13, 2009, 07:01 PM

Groups I and P have had no activity. I don't know if that is going to change over the weekend, but it's nice to get some start.

I don't know either.

I hereby appeal to my oponents to use this forum's personal messages for sending me ideas about the time we can play. It is what I will do, but not before monday. Thank You

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