[Discuss] Intermediate as Classic or Free Scheme

[darKz]

You know, I just lost to that Rafka guy at Intermediate (I know.. He's so pro it's not even funny) because I started the game with only 4.5 worms. A f@#!ing sheep killed 3 of my worms in turn 1 and severely injured a 4th one. That is, before I could even do a thing.
Of course I wasn't playing a perfect Intermediate after that because it was obvious there wasn't the slightest chance I could win after such a first turn. But yeah, that's clearly not the reason why I've lost.

This is for you Rafka:

03:30.14 <darKz`-> i just lost an intermediate to him because he killed 3.5 of my worms in turn 1
03:30.19 <darKz`-> and he thinks he's pro now
03:30.35 <darKz`-> he said "Dario would win 4.5 vs 8 situation"
03:31.36 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> I've won 3 vs 8 situations
03:31.41 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> very very special situations
03:31.51 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> where the enemy just ended up killing himself, so no credit for me
03:32.03 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> and if the map was bad, sorry dude, nothing you could have done that round.
03:32.08 <darKz`-> yeah i know.. but in intermediate, with all the ropes and the jetpack, wormselects, it's pretty much impossible
03:32.16 <Dario|WantMyNickBack> yep

My point is, I'd like to have Intermediate be a Free League scheme because there's just too much luck involved, it ruins your streak / rating / rank very randomly.
While I agree that the scheme requires a different type of skill than i.e. Elite does, I don't think it's possible to play best-of-one Intermediates in a league.

I'd like to hear opinions about this. And if Rafka shows up here please don't hesitate to click that [smite] button, he f@#!ing deserves it for the chat in those 2 games.

This is the said game if you'd like to have a look:
https://www.tus-wa.com/videos/replays/%5BPoD%5DRafka(1228703467).2008-12-08%2001.50.55%20%5BOnline%5D%20darKz%60b2b,%20@xRafka.WAgame

[Dario]

I don't like bo1 games, no matter which scheme, that is one of the reasons why I almost don't play in bo1 leagues or tournaments. I am also not sure if the kind-of-bad-luck-that-gives-you-absolutely-no-chance-to-win happens more often at Intermediate (with a decent map choice) than at T17 (with a decent map choice), wxw or shoppers (but what do I know, I don't play T17, wxw or shoppers). Also I can't really compare Inter vs Elite to say which one is better, because I think I've played a good number of both of them and I still can't do such "ranking", they are simply different.

So, to be honest,  extreme bad luck happens at Inter (so that if the map was bad, the placement was unfair and your opponent was good enough you will simply lose) I know it, but:
-I am not sure it happens more than at other schemes.
-This particular replay was not one of the cases of extreme bad luck and there was something Darkz could have done to even up the situation: http://nnnclan.freeforums.org/download.php?id=292

But I totally understand that someone who is not used to the sight of 3/8 worms plopped in the first turn gets frozen by anger and fails to see the counter attack. So it is quite true that people used only to elite and t17 gaming will not stand a chance against an experienced Intermediater in situations similar to this game (multiple kills in the first turn = "roll the worm" maps) in the same way an Intermediater used to "roll the worm" maps won't stand a chance against an experienced eliter in an elite game.

So, please, keep Intermediate as classic and make games best of 3 , in that way I assure you that a good player will almost never lose to a not-so-good player, I've seen it happen.

Last thing: where is the "streak" counter? I've failed to see it in the ranking.

[MonkeyIsland]

I think intermediate must be in classic league. As everything already said, I guess it must be bo3.

For league games play intermediate bo3 from now on, But report with 1 replay till I make it 3 replays upload.

EDIT :  darKz I watched the replay. I have to say it weren't like you didn't have a chance at all. I guess the main reason that you lost, was you didn't concentrate on the game enough because you were looking at Intermediate as a cheap scheme in the game time. (According to your chat)

[KinslayeR]

I agree, intermedialna is also v lucky scheme (for bo1), and in fight bo1, man who starts turn has 60-70 % win + if he has good positions and plop u 2-3 worms at start u can say just "gg" what happens in 50 % of my inter's games..
Bo3 for inter

[f4st]

I don't see what's the problem, i don't play intermediate, that's my solution, i always say that b4 opponent's pick, if he isn't agree then we don't play.
I'm agree in that's a 90% lucky game, that's why i don't play it, but too many NNN's to say nothing bad about intermediate lol..

[KinslayeR]

Yes, many good intermediate players and NNN will tell u that inter is not lucky, but for me it is more lucky than shoppa or t17, but it is just my opinion..  So Bo3 can make it more fair, but I dont think so if many ppl will have time to play 3 games about 1 win..

[darKz]

You missed the point Monkey, I already said I played shite. But I had Dario confirm that the situation was pretty much hopeless. Not impossible but very hopeless.

Why do you think Intermediate belongs to Classic anyway? It hasn't been a league core scheme for the last 9 years.

[MonkeyIsland]

Losing 3 worms and 20 HP at the beginning of the game sure is "hopeless". I'm not saying If I were in your place I would win the game or so. I'm saying losing that much at the very beginning messed your concentration up for the rest of the game, as I saw there were some chances you could do more damage to Rafka.

I didn't choose Intermediate to be in classic :
https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/index.php?topic=16.0 (It started first here, other than talking on messengers ...)

Why do you think Intermediate belongs to Classic anyway? It hasn't been a league core scheme for the last 9 years.

True, But is that enough reason to not include some new schemes? + thinking like that will block any new scheme that could have some potential imo.

[darKz]

True, But is that enough reason to not include some new schemes? + thinking like that will block any new scheme that could have some potential imo.

Not at all.
There's a) still NNN's Intermediate-league and b) still a fun-part in here, the Free League.
I would agree on having Battle Race or Fort in the Classic League (because it's been like that before) but certainly not Intermediate. This is gonna cause a lot of ruckus you know, I guess I'm not the only one with this opinion.
Where's the 'skill' in killing 3 worms in the very first round and before your opponent can do a single damn thing? You can't kill say 40% of your opponent's worms in round 1 in any other scheme (except in Team17 maybe, but there you still got a great chance of at least drawing).

[MonkeyIsland]

I see your point.

I think making normal bo3 could be some sort of solution here and it would decrease this "luck" in Intermediate that has gone on your nerves.

There's a) still NNN's Intermediate-league

So, please, keep Intermediate as classic and make games best of 3

Other than Dario's quote, I had heard that NNN had shut their league down for some reason, don't know how much it is true though ...

Anyway, aside of everyting been said, Feel free to start a poll in leagues ideas board, about Intermediate. If you get enough poll, It will be moved to the free league.

[Dario]

Let's do this, I start playing Inter here to best of whatever-you-want and if I am lucky I will manage to get a nice winning % that (if winning or losing is actually random) shouldn't go higher than 60-70%.

Yes, there is no current intermediate league because we lost our hosting ^^.

[Doubletime]

As  Bytor said. Playing elite is like flipping a coin, However starts winn.

Therefore the luckfactor in elite is 40 to 50 percent.

In intermidiate. you have 8 worms 3 ws and 2 teleports. Allso you have 8 worms so it isnt common on good maps(without to many easy plops)that you can ever get more than 2 kills per turn.)

Furthermore in elite that isnt elite yust some player who renamed it  to make it sound more hardcore. It is far to easy to darkside because of

Limited attack power

Limited attack time

No hotseat time.

Therefore less skilled player can easily wait and use the supersheep later on at sd. Allso sd is much earlier then in normal

I think intermidiate should ofc be played with a propper luckllesss scheme (no duds no crates basicly) Besides. Intermidiate is much harder than elite. Many people that are good in normal become great in elite ... but people good at elite can loose 4 0 in normal. In normal .There is rarely any hiding. You must etheir decimate or die but still have to think alot(especially in cavern game)

Besides. There is really no luck in normal. Except for starting possitions. But other populair classic leauges schemes are infested with luck. Like t17 for exampel. Crates every turn.

If we were to divide all the schemes into luck and non luck normal would make it into non luck(even though elite would to) and besides free schemes like wfw would allso get in. great i love wfw)

So in the end it is alot harder to contrll youre worms in normal than in elite. So instead of being forced to play normal as superior scheme play whatever you want.

Suggestion. I think we should remove shoppa from tus

[darKz]

Doubletime please, please cut your nonsense posts. Elite hasn't been named Elite by some random guy, there was an EliteLeague scheme included in every installation of Worms just like Intermediate. Both have been tweaked a little to suit leagues better.

It's obvious that neither you nor that other guy you're talking about have played Elite to the extent that I've played it (and many others). Placing first doesn't mean a damn thing, you're clearly underestimating the strategic factors of the scheme. If you've got a proper strategy (piling for example, to mention an easy one) you're very soon in an even situation, the game practically begins from there, not from placing first.

40-50% luck in Elite? Don't make me laugh.

Although I guess this also counts for Intermediate, I still don't think there's an equal chance of winning both schemes even if you've mastered whichever scheme you're playing.

[chakkman]

yes indeed, its just contraproductive to compare elite and intermediate and try to figure out which scheme contains more lucky moments. as already said i dont think you can win or loose any of those schemes by luck/bad luck.

dont wanna decide whether to keep intermediate or not also...i would say its a matter of how many ppl want to keep it or not, as we figured out now thats its not luck to win it

[darKz]

Okay to sum it up, after my talk with Dario I'm pretty much convinced that Intermediate can be played competitively and it's not as lucky as I first thought, however this only applies if you play it at least bo3.

If Intermediate is gonna be played bo3 in Classic I'll do as f4st recommended and tell people beforehand that I won't play Intermediate because to me it's nonsense to play 4 games for 2 wins if I can play 2 for 2.