A new type of League request

[TheKomodo]

Please read all this, this type of League will benefit everyone, every type of player there is.

So at this point, it's awesome to see TFL become active again, and for a moment I almost thought about playing, then realized how much some of the schemes there frustrate and bore me, preventing me from actually taking part.

In TUS Allround, out of the 11 schemes i'd only ever pick 8 to play, i'd completely avoid Intermediate and Team17, and although i'd never pick Shopper i'd accept playing it, because of this, there's no point in me playing as it's considered avoiding.

In TUS Free League, out of the 20 schemes available, i'd only ever pick 10, i'd avoid 9, i'd accept playing opponents pick with 1. Yet again, there's no point me playing this as it would be avoiding.



How many people don't participate in Leagues because the selection of schemes do not support the schemes they actually enjoy playing?

Why do we have play like this? Wouldn't it be better if we are free to play whatever we enjoy playing?



Last year while WR and WL were merging to create a new League(which ultimately failed), M3ntal and I were discussing creating a League of our own which would solve this problem of people avoiding certain schemes. M3ntal came up with this idea:

There is no "Allround", "TEL", "Free League", "Classic League", "Rotated League".

Instead, every single scheme that is uploaded in the database will have it's own Standings page, and yes, that includes all variations of the scheme.

So now people can focus on only the schemes THEY like to play.

Now here's the best part of M3ntals idea which I absolutely loved.

Instead of having "Allround" and "Free" etc, the website will have it's own filters for showing collections of schemes.

So say you want to see who is the best at Kaos, you can select just Kaos. If you want to see who is the best at Kaos, Sheep Racer, BnG, Intermediate and Darts, you can select those 5 schemes and TUS will match all those individual schemes to show you an allround rating for those schemes you just selected.

People can choose to play only the schemes they enjoy, and choose to view an absolute all round for everything that exists, as well as a mixture of any and all schemes they wish to view together. This way each individual player can see how they stack up against every other player in those schemes they enjoy playing. This would be a huge incentive for any competitive player!

So you don't have to enjoy all the same schemes as everyone else, yet everyone can see how they stack up against everyone else in their preferred schemes!

There would be pre-curated filter sets for the most popular schemes so you wouldn't have to, for example, manually select everyone's variations on a rope race to get a general standing of rope race type schemes. There might even be an option to request your new scheme gets added to one of these filter sets when you upload it, and a moderator could approve that.

Quite frankly, it's the best idea i've ever heard for a League, however ultimately M3ntal became very busy in life again, and I started doing CWT stuff so we didn't bother.

Please, PLEASE, consider making this a reality with the new version of TUS you are working on MonkeyIsland, it's much better than the system we already have!

[Kradie]

That's a good suggestion. But, in addition I would like to add something: The top 5 to 10 schemes that are being actively played could be accumulated into one league, ''Active Scheme League'' (ASL). Such league with its selection of scheme based on activity, would only last a season or so, until a new batch of active schemes are introduced to replace or stay in the next ASL.  So the more people play Intermediate, Shopper, & Kaos e.g, these schemes would have big chance to be included in ASL.

Maybe it was suggested but I didn't get it.

[FoxHound]

That's a very good idea, Komito. Everyone enjoys playing their own preferences of schemes. This game has lots and lots of schemes and new schemes are always being created. The way the leagues are now, limit too much the number of schemes available to be played and people often refuse to play other schemes, sometimes you have to play a scheme you don't like to play... Anyway I think this would be a revolution in TUS and I wonder how the matchmaking system would work in this possible change. Would it work for each scheme? Would it warn if a scheme has more players attempting to play? It would be much better.

[TheKomodo]

I'll go into a little bit more detail how this would work, so regarding how it would work for each scheme.

Schemes:

For example using the "Roper" scheme from "Rope/Classic/Allround" League schemes. Generally speaking changes such as changing Hotseat time, giving -/+ handicap for HP, changing the amount of health you receive when picking up a crate from like 10-25. These changes, at least in my opinion, are fine and don't change the actual scheme.

However if you use W2 Roper scheme the WR guys use, which has unrestricted rope(changes physics), and several different settings, or you use the ZaR Roper scheme, these are entirely different schemes with their own scheme page, so they will have their own standings page.

Big RR / Big ZaR RR / Tower Race would all have their own pages.

WxW / Fly Shopper / Surf Shopper would all have their own pages.

TTRR with milliseconds on/off would still count for the same scheme.

Hysteria with select worm is a completely different scheme(Selecsteria), and the other alternative versions I think DarkOne uploaded, would all have their own individual pages.

The actual changes allowed for the most popular schemes is something that would be up for debate or simply let us have faith in the TUS Staff to make the right decisions regarding this, which they usually always have. It's something I respect TUS Staff for, if they make a change you can appeal it, like what happened with the Anti-Lock BnG rule if you provide good reasoning.



Pre-Curated Filters:

The whole point of this League system is that no other League system will be required, ever again. It will also constantly favour the current popular schemes, and any time a new scheme is invented which people enjoy, such as 80hp, people can immediately start competing without having to go through the trial and error of TRL, Cups, Tournaments etc. You simply upload your scheme, and let people play it, if it's popular enough, the standings page will flourish.

NO MORE WAITING!

Each individual person registered on TUS can view the schemes they choose, and as mentioned before there will be pre-curated filters, for example:

• Racing Schemes - TTRR / Big RR / Big ZaR RR / Bungee Race / Jetpack Race / etc
• Strategic Schemes - Elite / Team17 / Intermediate / Abnormal / etc
• Artillery Schemes - Hysteria / BnG / Aerial / Selecsteria / Forts
• Top 10 - The 10 most played schemes
• Everything - All schemes on TUS database
• Rope Schemes - Roper / ZaR Roper / W2 Roper / TTRR / Tower Race / Big RR / etc

This is just an example of the pre-curated filters that can exist already, just to give players some popular grouping of schemes to see the standings.

Every scheme will have their own standings page, and as mentioned before, players can sit and mix'n'match any group of schemes they wish which will combine and show the standings for all of those together, you could have 3, 10, 30, 100, selected, it's entirely designed to give everyone both the optimal personal experience and optimal collective experience in competitive gameplay for the future of Worms Armageddon.



Playoffs:

It came to my attention we didn't discuss Playoffs.

We could either do away with Playoffs entirely or Playoffs could work in several different ways.

Every scheme could have their individual Playoffs, an alternative from mix'n'match style Playoffs, I like this idea personally although not sure how others would feel. Let me explain.

The tricky part would be how to organize Playoffs for a sort of allround collection of schemes if this is something many people look forward to. The thing to consider here is how much Worms Armageddon has evolved, is this style of Playoffs even suitable in modern times?

Which is why I think the better idea is Single Scheme Playoffs.

The benefit of single scheme Playoffs is you will still get to compete in all the schemes you enjoy if you play well enough against all the other players competing in those schemes, so you won't lose out on other schemes for Playoffs. It also means the actual PO will consist of people who specialize in those schemes and not just get trashed 3:0 because they reached Playoffs playing only one scheme. Personally I think this will make the overall skill level and intensity of these matches much higher and enjoyable.

[FoxHound]

[quotation from last Komito's post removed after Monkey Island's reply]

The more details I read, the more I like your idea. My question still remains: what about the matchmaking system?

I was thinking that TUS could have like a "Scheme Queues" board. This way you could see how many people are trying to find an opponent to a determined scheme. So, some schemes could find an opponent more easily than others. If the scheme you want to play is too underground and nobody is searching for a game using this scheme, maybe looking at other schemes queue the person finds a scheme he/she likes to play with more people searching for a game.

Or maybe the queues for matchmaking could be divided in groups of schemes: a queue for common schemes, queue for not-so-common schemes, queue for rarely-played schemes, queue for underground schemes (or new schemes).

[MonkeyIsland]

Please do not quote the exact previous posts. It is redundant.

I like the idea. I like the idea of allowing to report on every scheme but we should have regulated schemes. There are more than 4000 schemes on TUS. Many may be duplicate or have very tiny changes. Allowing to report on every scheme just creates duplicated/unnecessary standings. Instead we should regulate those schemes. A group of people reviewing the schemes and mark them as "league playable". So ZAR roper would be qualified and it would be a separated scheme from W2 roper or the official roper. (all 3 can be played obviously) But 2 versions of TTRR will minimal changes should be marked as one.

I don't like combining any scheme selection and TUS has to calculate a custom standing for you. Why should you be able to select BoomRace with Hysteria to see a standing? What's the point? Standings is a way to show how the competition is going on. Now every player can find a custom standing where they shine. It reduces the quality of the competition. (Pre-Curated Filters sounds OK)

Back to the main idea: If we take this rout, I would like to suggest a better system based on your ideas:

We set a period like 2-3 months for the league season. Only one league. Then we let players to play their favorite schemes. After the season is done, TUS system checks for top 8 played schemes based on number of participants. For example if 2 players play 100 Team17 matches, the popularity number for Team17 would be 2 but if 10 people play 50 BnG matches, the popularity number would be 10.  So after picking up the top 8 popular schemes, the playoffs would be set based on those.

The cool thing about this idea is that it allows any scheme to become popular. It's like schemes compete to be in playoffs. If in a season, WxW is played less but Darts becomes popular, Dart would be chosen to be in playoffs. If someone creates a new scheme and they are worried the scheme is not getting enough attention. Now they have a chance to play it in league and try to raise the popularity of the scheme to be in playoffs.

So far so good but there will be flaws. Will this system kill some oldschool schemes? TTRR requires lots of practice. Can TTRR hold popularity? Does this system drop TTRR?

[TheKomodo]

I like the idea. I like the idea of allowing to report on every scheme but we should have regulated schemes. There are more than 4000 schemes on TUS. Many may be duplicate or have very tiny changes. Allowing to report on every scheme just creates duplicated/unnecessary standings. Instead we should regulate those schemes. A group of people reviewing the schemes and mark them as "league playable". So ZAR roper would be qualified and it would be a separated scheme from W2 roper or the official roper. (all 3 can be played obviously) But 2 versions of TTRR will minimal changes should be marked as one.

4000, wow... I thought there were maybe 400 or something.

I'm more than happy to offer my services to trawl through checking schemes, even better if there were a team of competitive players happy to test schemes like this, sift through them all.

I don't like combining any scheme selection and TUS has to calculate a custom standing for you. Why should you be able to select BoomRace with Hysteria to see a standing? What's the point? Standings is a way to show how the competition is going on. Now every player can find a custom standing where they shine. It reduces the quality of the competition. (Pre-Curated Filters sounds OK)

The idea has to work as previously said with the custom filters and letting people use what schemes they want, or it isn't worth it, the whole point is to work exactly as mentioned above. I do think an acceptable compromise is trawling through all the schemes to narrow them down to make sure there aren't pointless copies like you said, everything else should remain as explained though.

I've answered your question "Why should you be able to select BoomRace with Hysteria to see a standing? What's the point?" already, although i'm happy to answer it again:

This game and it's playerbase have evolved to the point it's not simple to find 2 players who enjoy exactly the same schemes and only those schemes, even the Intermediate players in NNN have at some point or another dabbled in other schemes even if the main thing they want to play is Intermediate.

If you ask me, the current system is a joke and has been since day one, nothing has managed to cater to everyones individual tastes, forever people have had to accept what the popular people wanted.

This game is often compared to real life olympics, each "scheme" is compared to each "event". In real life, every individual event has professionals who specialize in that thing, often you have people who specialize in several different events, although never have I seen any athlete who trains and wins medals in all of them.

The entire point of the system exactly as I described it is to enable a League which caters to absolutely everyone. I'm very surprised you think it reduces the quality of the competition because the opposite is true from another perspective.

People can avoid the schemes they don't want to play, they can happily search for specific schemes in TUS without being laballed a noob, a coward, or far worse. The quality of competition will be much higher because you should be able to compete against the current best players for each individual scheme who is currently active.

Personally I think the current way the system works is not, nor has ever been a true reflection of all round skill because people always have and always will manipulate their games, for example when I started playing singles in TUS 75% of my games were BnG and I reached #1 for the Playoffs spot for that Season, and then pulled out because I didn't want to play Playoffs all that was interesting to me was BnG, since then i've realized it doesn't fit to play a single scheme in that system and ruins the allround standings.

Another example, while I think Random00 is a great allround player, in my eyes he is nowhere near as good as his standings made him look, he completely manipulated the system to reach the ridiculous rank he had, carefully paying attention to who was online when picking his matches, making sure to pick his opponents weakest schemes where he would gain the most points. After I beat him in BnG i'd never see him again for a rematch. There were plenty players who could beat him in every scheme yet he always found a way to play at optimal times picking optimal schemes to get the most points. There is nothing wrong with that, i'm just giving an example of how allround never is or never will be truly accurate for the simple fact that not everyone wants to play all the schemes.

Another example, for clanners, a lot of people will agree CF done the same thing in Clanners. In an ideal system everyone would play everyone at everything, however there just isn't the time, the playerbase or incentive for that.

Also, every player finding a custom standing where they shine is not as easy as you may think. If they want to create their own scheme nobody else plays just to be the best at that, let them! The most popular schemes will always have the highest skill for competition, therefor making it just as hard to reach the top in the popular schemes. The custom filters is a way to see how you stack up against everyone else in a mix'n'match of different schemes.

So a player can compare how they stack up against other players in specific rope schemes they enjoy, while ignoring others they don't, or they might want to see how they stack up in just 3-4 schemes. The fact that there are individual standings for every scheme make sure people don't have to play schemes they don't like, the most popular schemes will have the best standings pages and feel the competition the most, making them more rewarding and satisfying for players to achieve being the best at.

Back to the main idea: If we take this rout, I would like to suggest a better system based on your ideas:

We set a period like 2-3 months for the league season. Only one league. Then we let players to play their favorite schemes. After the season is done, TUS system checks for top 8 played schemes based on number of participants. For example if 2 players play 100 Team17 matches, the popularity number for Team17 would be 2 but if 10 people play 50 BnG matches, the popularity number would be 10.  So after picking up the top 8 popular schemes, the playoffs would be set based on those.

The cool thing about this idea is that it allows any scheme to become popular. It's like schemes compete to be in playoffs. If in a season, WxW is played less but Darts becomes popular, Dart would be chosen to be in playoffs. If someone creates a new scheme and they are worried the scheme is not getting enough attention. Now they have a chance to play it in league and try to raise the popularity of the scheme to be in playoffs.

So far so good but there will be flaws. Will this system kill some oldschool schemes? TTRR requires lots of practice. Can TTRR hold popularity? Does this system drop TTRR?

The idea already presented let's people play their favourite schemes anyway, not only that, your idea is limited and restricted. It has a time limit, it has an unnecessary point system, it makes things more complex.

Personally speaking, i'd rather just keep things the way they are if M3ntals idea is not adopted.

I would always rather let people play what they want, when they want, for as long as they want, regardless if it's 1 game per year or 100,000.

The suggested system means new schemes can be setup and activated almost instantly without waiting, without trials, just load it into TUS database and go.

A scheme can become incredibly popular within weeks, or it can slowly build up over time, so I personally don't like your idea sorry.

The only problem is, I never realized there are 4000 schemes lol, however i'm prepared to spend 1-2 months sifting through schemes to sort these out if it revolutionizes the way we compete in this game.

Also, about oldschool schemes, if those are killed in favour of new schemes, so be it, let it happen.

Those schemes had their glory, it's time to adapt and let the current generation dictate the current popular schemes and competition.

[FoxHound]

Wow. 4000 schemes! lol

Yeah there are also the "joke schemes" haha

For me Monkey Island's proposal seems better than what we have now, even though I would always prefer a system with more variety of schemes and freedom

I don't see severe flaws, since the popularity of the schemes always change with time. Now people are playing Kaos more than Super Sheep Race that has 5 pages of maps in WMDB. You have just to accept the reality. Those famous schemes that will not appear in playoffs anymore may still be played in the leagues, in Cups and in Tournaments. They will never die.

[MonkeyIsland]

My idea doesn't have any conflict with the original idea. It is only about the playoffs. To have playoffs, you need to make the league season-based. In each season, players play whatever scheme they want like the proposed idea. The playoffs picks most popular schemes out of those. That's it.

[TheKomodo]

My idea doesn't have any conflict with the original idea. It is only about the playoffs. To have playoffs, you need to make the league season-based. In each season, players play whatever scheme they want like the proposed idea. The playoffs picks most popular schemes out of those. That's it.

Ah!

Yes! I see what you mean, sorry!

I've misread a few words in your paragraph, i've read it again.

We set a period like 2-3 months for the league season. Only one league. Then we let players to play their favorite schemes. After the season is done, TUS system checks for top 8 played schemes based on number of participants. For example if 2 players play 100 Team17 matches, the popularity number for Team17 would be 2 but if 10 people play 50 BnG matches, the popularity number would be 10.  So after picking up the top 8 popular schemes, the playoffs would be set based on those.

The cool thing about this idea is that it allows any scheme to become popular. It's like schemes compete to be in playoffs. If in a season, WxW is played less but Darts becomes popular, Dart would be chosen to be in playoffs. If someone creates a new scheme and they are worried the scheme is not getting enough attention. Now they have a chance to play it in league and try to raise the popularity of the scheme to be in playoffs.

So far so good but there will be flaws. Will this system kill some oldschool schemes? TTRR requires lots of practice. Can TTRR hold popularity? Does this system drop TTRR?

Your idea makes sense now, I have questions:

What would the requirement be for reaching Playoffs?

Do you have to play the schemes you didn't actually compete in?

What if you played 4/8 of those schemes and had a great season, made the playoffs, although you refuse to play the other 4 schemes, does this mean you forfeit the Playoffs?

This is why I prefer the idea of having single scheme playoffs, even if it's only the Top 8 schemes involved, so long as you don't have to play the schemes you don't enjoy, i'm happy with that tbh.

[Xrayez]

As I recall, the only reason why I started playing TUS long time ago was Hysteria scheme. And for a good chunk of time, I've been picking Hysteria all the time. I did not like most of the schemes that people picked (other than those which share artillery aspects like BnG), and I was kind of forced to play those in the past. The absolute worst experience for me was to play TTRR. Unlike other schemes, most people who pick TTRR are extremely proficient in it.

So yeah, I confirm that nowadays, one of the reasons why I wouldn't want to play TUS is exactly because I'd also need to play other schemes I don't like. The only reason why I've become better at other schemes is because I had to play them, but I wouldn't say I like them, though what you hate initially tends to transform into what you like, but that's more like Stockholm syndrome rather than love, when you try to understand and justify why people find those schemes enjoyable in the first place.

What if you played 4/8 of those schemes and had a great season, made the playoffs, although you refuse to play the other 4 schemes, does this mean you forfeit the Playoffs?

Yeah, sounds like I'd have to actually learn to play new schemes if I've never played them before. If that's the case, that does take a lot of dedication and willingness watching replays to learn new schemes. I'm not necessarily against MI's idea, but you have to be aware of the fact that people nowadays can't even concentrate watching a YouTube video for longer than 5 minutes, or even shorter (see TikTok videos). 

[TheKomodo]

So yeah, I confirm that nowadays, one of the reasons why I wouldn't want to play TUS is exactly because I'd also need to play other schemes I don't like. The only reason why I've become better at other schemes is because I had to play them

That's actually an interesting side effect, when people get good at things they don't enjoy, simply because they had to do those things in order to do the things they do enjoy as well.

It's kinda like, having a job and working most of your week, so you can enjoy a little day or 2 doing the things you do actually like.

Although, most people are in that situation anyway, so they end up having chunks of their spare time spent playing schemes they don't enjoy just to enjoy the thrill of competing in the things they do enjoy.

Yeah, sounds like I'd have to actually learn to play new schemes if I've never played them before. If that's the case, that does take a lot of dedication and willingness watching replays to learn new schemes. I'm not necessarily against MI's idea, but you have to be aware of the fact that people nowadays can't even concentrate watching a YouTube video for longer than 5 minutes, or even shorter (see TikTok videos). 

Don't get me wrong, if a League was like 3 schemes, and I enjoyed 2 of them, i'd practise the third because it's manageable to focus on 3 schemes and compete at the highest level.

Now we have 11 schemes, seriously, who tf has time, or more importantly, the passion to actually master all 11 of those?

So yeah, for those few select and rare individuals who want to play 20-30 schemes, with this system, they can! Those who want to play just 1 scheme, they can!

TikTok though 

The way things are going with image and beauty being the most important thing to social media addicts, not to mention their lack of attention span, in the next 10-20 years kids are gonna be like:

[Xrayez]

Yeah, I'm talking from the standpoint of the newer generation of gamers, because they're basically the one who can proliferate TUS leagues, especially when TUS has to compete with modern games with great matchmaking capabilities. That said, TUS league in and of itself should accept the trends governed by modern society, even if TUS does not like to play those games as wanted by modern society, because that's their pick as well, so to speak. 

It's more or less socio/philosophical question, but that's probably the only realistic way to keep TUS alive (by making compromises). But all in all, I like the general idea behind this proposal.

[MonkeyIsland]

What if you played 4/8 of those schemes and had a great season, made the playoffs, although you refuse to play the other 4 schemes, does this mean you forfeit the Playoffs?

This is why I prefer the idea of having single scheme playoffs, even if it's only the Top 8 schemes involved, so long as you don't have to play the schemes you don't enjoy, i'm happy with that tbh.

This is up for debate. In my opinion playoffs is the summary of the season. Someone should wear the crown after the end of the season. We could run specific scheme playoffs. Maybe only when that scheme has enough games played but that is very different from marking one player as the champion of the season.

[TheKomodo]

What if you played 4/8 of those schemes and had a great season, made the playoffs, although you refuse to play the other 4 schemes, does this mean you forfeit the Playoffs?

This is why I prefer the idea of having single scheme playoffs, even if it's only the Top 8 schemes involved, so long as you don't have to play the schemes you don't enjoy, i'm happy with that tbh.

This is up for debate. In my opinion playoffs is the summary of the season. Someone should wear the crown after the end of the season. We could run specific scheme playoffs. Maybe only when that scheme has enough games played but that is very different from marking one player as the champion of the season.

How about both?

For single scheme playoffs, you could have it so they need to meet a certain requirement. Have a minimum of say 10/20/30/40 players or something, and a minimum collective average amount of games played shared between all the players active for that scheme, if there are enough players for that scheme, the scheme can have PO, otherwise, nothing happens.

To be quite honest though, i'd be happy enough just to have every scheme available as it's own standings, and being able to view, mix'n'match custom filter standings pages. Single scheme playoffs would be a cherry on top but i'm willing to let that slide personally lol.