Changing Classic League Schemes

[TheKomodo]

Floris point was that early and mid game don't mean a shit, which defies the logic behind a scheme being competitive (not talking about your twisted definition of the word). You missed the point, in fact you haven't countered a single argument so far which makes that "next" at the end of your posts look pathetic to be honest.

Without no early and mid game there would be no end-game, you can use your early/mid turns to gain/destroy territory.

Next.

[Flori]

Without no early and mid game there would be no end-game

We learned something today. Without start there is no end.

you can use your early/mid turns to gain/destroy territory.

I got it now, the goal of early and mid hysteria game is to f@#! the map so end game you cant hide and its fair bng fight without cheated hide.

Next.

No comment.

[DarkOne]

Holy crap, guys! I started wading through this thread today and while I was reading, 3 more pages got added!
I've tried to put down the suggestions offered in this thread (the majority in the first 3 pages, after which, for some reason, it became more of a personal thing).

Elite

Team17
- Remove from classic league (nappy, Flori)
- Change the scheme (Chicken23)

Hysteria
- Hysteria should be in Free League. (Flori, darkz)
- Anti-suicide rule (Flori)
- Anti-darkside rule (Flori)
- Remove it from classic league (darkz, Free, Flori, ShyGuy)
- Change the scheme (Flori, MonkeyIsland)

BnG

TTRR
- checking times precisely as the standard rule (plenty of people)

Roper

WxW

Shopper
- Remove this from classic league (Free, Flori)
- Change the scheme (Professor, Chicken23)

Intermediate
- Put this in classic (Flori, Free, nappy, Random00, Mablak)
- Intermediate should have different point system, because it takes longer (Random00)

Big RR
- Put this in Classic League (Flori)

WFW
- Put this in classic league (nappy)

Aerial
- Put this in classic league (sm0k, fr4nk)

General
- Add TUS Default and Roper league in addition to classic league and remove the rotated league. (SPW)
- Agree on both picks before the first game is played (chicken23)
- Stop the pointless debating and actually put up with your scheme suggestion and do something with it (HHC)

about killing own worms:whats the problem? you also sacrifice your own units chess to create a trap.

It's not so much about killing your own worm - grave damage is a good weapon, kamikaze is used in elite as well. The difference is that a Monty Python sketch has become a valid tactic.
You mention chess as an example, but I can tell you that giving your opponent a piece is usually a very bad thing - it takes a certain position before sacrificing a piece gives you any sort of advantage.
As it stands now, turn order abuse is too powerful a weapon in hysteria.
You could call it out-of-the-box thinking, but if killing your own worm in any position is a good thing, you can't really speak of out-of-the-box thinking, can you?
It's also the main reason why hysteria turns into a 1on1 battle. If having more worms becomes less of a disadvantage (or *gasp* an advantage), then less games will turn into a 1on1 battle.

ShyGuy, you used the example of hysterias where avirex kills his worms at the start of the game. Have you ever tried a clan roper where your clan mate lags out/quits before the game starts? The same reasoning applies here - there are piles every turn and the 1 person team is probably more likely to win this round.

A couple of suggestions have been made with regards to changing the scheme to nerf turn order abuse in hysteria - random turn order, restricting teleports (though jetpacks could still make turn order abuse very much possible) and I'd like to add a suggestion from Darío on IRC: enable worm select.

Instead of talking, why not create the scheme you desire?

I'm fairly sure that if you manage to make it 'better' (as subjective as it may be) and host some tourneys/cups in it it will get approved sooner or later.

It's easy to blah-blah-blah, but it's hard to overcome laziness  

This really is the best way to get things done imo and not enough people do this.
Having 14 pages of discussion hasn't changed anything. It never has and it probably never will. Action is required - show us an alternative that works.

The shopper scheme of cl2k was dramatically changed in fb. Why? Because FFie made a shopper scheme of her own for wmdb and it was very balanced (and proven to be so in tournaments). The fb scheme was virtually a copy of that wmdb scheme (few small tweaks).

WFW was first made when we got colour maps by miner2049 and didn't get off the ground. What happened next? Wyv picked it up from the worms history bin, made a couple of maps. Spread the word through IRC, next thing, FFie hosts a couple of tournaments with it. It's not a popular game now, but there are now 30-40ish maps for WFW and still survives to this day (8 years after it was first made)

TTRR used to be 30 seconds RR - what happened? Dextah090 hosted a RRkit tourney where everybody had 90 seconds per turn (we didn't have infinite time like now yet) and had to finish the map as quickly as possible with all worms/get as far as possible if the map wasn't finishable in 90 seconds. The idea caught on, more tourneys were hosted and eventually, TTRR replaced regular RR.

Aerial. HHC made it this year and it's already gotten enough popularity to be picked in free league. Why? Cups, cups, cups.

The reason trick BnG exists is because a couple of people organised their own league with its own tournaments (a2b).

I don't think I have to explain how hysteria came to be, do I?

You can all have your own ideas about each of these schemes - you can love them, you can hate them, but this is how shit gets started. It starts with one (or a few) people who start something up and the rest will follow suit. Get your friends to play it. Host a tournament with your particular scheme. Host a cup with your particular scheme. Get it out there and not just in a forum thread with 300 different opinions where the thread topic is completely lost after 14 pages.
If the scheme is bollocks, then it will be discarded and forgotten.

[Flori]

Well done DarkOne
The Whole 14 pages weren't so useless, they made me change my ideas little by little by reading argumnts of each one.
This is how i see it now :

T17 : Remove from classic league if there is no changes.
Change the schemes is of course a better idea because this schemes could be really better. I used to enjoy a lot T17 years ago.

Hysteria : Change the scheme. (like 5sec sd, put select worm or something else).

Shopper : Same as t17. Remove it from Classic league of change the schemes.

Intermediate in Classic league. About point system as Rdm00 said, why not.

Big RR : Still think it should be 1 more schemes of classic league.

TTRR : Don't change anything.

Btw I don't see Komo in any proposition. Shows how useless his comments are.

I THINK EVERYONE INTERESTED ON THE TOPIC SHOULD DO A LIST LIKE THIS SO WE COULD KNOW WHAT MOST PEOPLE THINK.

[fr4nk]

T17 - edit scheme, too many weapons repeat and lots of games end without sd weapons
Elite
Hysteria - Remove and put Aerials instead, or edit scheme with only few teleports
Roper
TTRR
Shopper
WxW - remove some useless weapons (dragon ball etc)
BnG - (I better don't talk lol)

[Peja]

weeeeee creating a bitch list is fun:

hysteria: what about replacing the cow with a ss? people wont like a 1 vs 1 if ss is still there.

shopper: deleting all rules, people already complain about getting ground weapons, so wheres the sense for afr/afc? if you dont collect a crate, have fun attacking with the drill.

team 17: delete anti ropeknock. u only have 1 rope, if you knock you cant hide well. also it adds some creativity.

elite: delete anti ropeknock: similar to team 17. cows could be a nice weapon, would add some more options.


roper: scheme of avirex ftw, check the several topics for reasons.

bng: change to the scheme of komo, maybe adding retreat time.

[Casso]

Hysteria: This scheme is perfect
Elite: This scheme is perfect
WxW: This scheme is perfect
Team17: add some more sd weapons
Shopper: default scheme isn't bad but players can edit somethings before starting the game
TTRR: default scheme is OK but players can decide to count hundredths of a second if they both agree
Roper: default scheme is OK but players can decide to use the w2w rule when the crate is hard to collect
BnG: Infinite teleports and shotguns. Players can decide to deselect the anchorage mode if they both agree

Add Intermediate on Classic League with another system point based on the won rounds. Players can decide to play Bo1 if they both agree

[DarkOne]

Btw I don't see Komo in any proposition. Shows how useless his comments are.

That's not entirely fair, is it? If somebody suggests removing TTRR from the classic league and you defend TTRR, that would mean there's no suggestion coming from you - does that make your post useless? 

I wholeheartedly agree with getting rid of afr in shopper I've always found it a pointless rule

For general, I would like to add this suggestion: add draws.

[TheKomodo]

Flori, with that reasoning, 99% of entire posts from everyone on TUS are useless.

I have gave, already, more than enough reasoning, you just don't see it from my point of view.

Hysteria - It's fine as it is, but i'd like option of whoever picks chooses SD time.

Elite - Not bothered

WxW - Don't care

T17 - *yawn*

Shopper - Really don't givva f@#!

BnG - If notching is untracable, so either make a rule no repeats are allowed, or make it no rules unanchored.

TTRR - There should be no choice, it should be MS whether they like it or not, defying the laws of the universe is f@#!ing retarded.

Roper - The scheme is fine, drill it into peoples heads to stop using ridiculous zig zag maze from harry potter maps like dumbasses.

Intermediate/Kaos/Aerial should all be put into their own 3-way League.

[Flori]

roper: scheme of avirex ftw, check the several topics for reasons.

where can i find this schemes ?

[Peja]

https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-653/ this or this  https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-303/

[darKz]

For general, I would like to add this suggestion: add draws.

I like this, draws could happen a lot more in Elite if people could actually report them.

BnG - If notching is untracable, so either make a rule no repeats are allowed, or make it no rules unanchored.

As someone who knows how notching works you should realize that making it unanch would give notchers even more advantage.

[TheKomodo]

It does and it doesn't, it does in the sense you will own a complete noob, it doesn't in the sense trickery is more useful than notching if VERY good at it.

[ShyGuy]

ShyGuy, you used the example of hysterias where avirex kills his worms at the start of the game. Have you ever tried a clan roper where your clan mate lags out/quits before the game starts? The same reasoning applies here - there are piles every turn and the 1 person team is probably more likely to win this round.

Interesting that you mention that.  If someone lags out or quits before a roper game, then it is usually rehosted.  However, there is no way you can manually and legally kill off yourself in the first turns of roper.  Me and avi even tested once: I would do as much damage to myself as possible with crate firebombs and fall damage to kill myself quickly to see if he could 1v2 win.  It never worked.  We even tested it in clanners, and we got slaughtered because it takes too long for one to kill himself, and the other team is double ganging the other worm in the meantime.  So that's what separates that example from hysteria.

Hysteria - Replace hysteria with an Aerial variation with 3 seconds, limited teleports, a few added weapons (including one worm select).

Elite - Remove mines and oil for more fair worm placement opportunity for player 2.  I know this will never happen in this community and I don't intend to argue it, don't worry.  But I would like to see the power of moles increased so much that they would do at least as much damage as they do in mole shoppas.  Increase the power of Old Lady and Sheep Launcher to 4 stars and maybe they'll see more play.  I'd like to see more super weapons be used in elite.  Also allow rope knocking.

Wxw - Ugh, such a stale scheme with all those linear maps.  I'd rather see big RR replace this since big RR promotes pure consistency, which is the goal of wxw but without the attacking with crates.  This would also balance the roping schemes - 2 schemes where you fetch a crate and attack and 2 schemes where it is just pure rope without worrying about combat.

T17 - There should be a rule against attacking first turn since sometimes one player can be out 1 (in some rare cases 2) just because he got unlucky with placements and happened to go second.  T17 is already considered a pretty lucky scheme, this is a simple rule to eliminate some very extra bad luck that can happen.  Also, when 4.0 comes out, definitely remove magic bullet, bananas, army, and vase.  If I had to eliminate just one, it would be magic bullet - you can't protect against it and it's a point and click brainless game winner.  I've also wondered how games would play out if both teams started with a homing missile.  I think this would detract from one of the best things about t17, which is trying to guess and determine what weapons your opponent has.  I would say increase the chance of getting homing missiles in the crates slightly.  Also allow rope knocking

Shoppa - the Tus scheme is awful.  I've made a thread about it already.  Eliminate fire punch and dragonball because they just suck ass when you are forced to leave your rope for only 30 damage.  Reduce chances of getting a shotgun, because for some reason the tus scheme has them very high. Bats are also annoying.  Reduce power on flamethrower so it doesn't do 2x more damage than the 2nd most powerful weapon.  Add weapons like homing missile and low powered cows.  

Bng - I've still played no rules bng, so I dont know if that would be better.  The girder rules in bng right now are really silly, forcing someone to waste turns to destroy the girder.  There seems to be a lot of complaints in bng.  Haven't done enough testing on this scheme yet to come to a conclusion.

TTRR - If someone wants to use precise timing, they should be allowed to.  Everything else is fine with this scheme

Roper - I support w2roper.  Roper is the worst scheme in the league, imo.  Same hides all game, mindlessly fetching crates, ridiculous first turn zook rule, and being forced not to attack because the game engine gave you an impossible crate.  If I had to change things about roper, I would eliminate the zook first turn rule... there's just no need for it and it can make you waste a turn if you get bad situational wind.  

Intermediate - I'm for it entering the league in a bo2 or higher form.  It's more classic than any other scheme, and surely it would attract newer people to playing tus competitively.  

[Husk]

why is rope knocking illegal in t17 and elite, who came up with that shit?