The Ultimate Site of Worms Armageddon
Leagues => Leagues General => Topic started by: Flori on July 04, 2012, 05:32 PM
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Ok. A lot of people gonna hate me I think BUT i hope a lof of people will agree also.
These are the 8 Classic League Schemes :
Elite Team17 Hysteria and BnG as default schemes
TTRR Roper Wxw Shoppa as Rope schemes
50% default, 50% rope, this is fair and done on purpose i guess.
Lets look at defaults.
Elite known as the best default schemes. Lets keep it.
Bng : Ok full of notcher but still one of the principal default schemes and we keep it of course.
T17 : Always have been in the principal defaults games also but I think between pro t17 players luck decides A LOT on who will win
Hysteria : FUN schemes, fun concept, but f@#!ing boring when the end starts and can last 1 hour if both team are playing their LIFE with zook from below. Honestly this is the kind of schemes u can win even if your opponent played 500X better than you whole early and mid game, because of the tactics of the schemes. Telecow, suicide on someone, plop ur worm, zook from below, etc etc (i dont know every lame tactic of the schemes).
So yes i know people will disagree saying, this is not lame, this is the hysteria tactic etc etc, but really, someone that is doing greats lg+jetpack zookshoots, or great nade/zook shots only, nice lg cows, in early and mid game can lose because the other guy just hide 1 worm and zook from below, or gonna use the other tactics i quoted before.
This is like : "The one winning hysteria is the one that got borred the last". Every game of hyst would last 1 hour if both player never get bored and want to win absolutly. In elite, t17n bng, you dont have this.
IN ROPE GAMES :
TTRR : everyone know i'm fan, its recognized as the less lucky rope schemes, and the best roping win almost in every case.
Roper : Some would say its luck, look some really good roper players, they never fall, are fast, and attacks with crates some other players couldnt. Thats also a schemes that reward the best roping player (in most of cases..).
WxW : In some easy map, i agree to say that cr8s can do the differenc between 2 decent players, but on hard maps, its really often that the best roping team wins.
SHOPPA : its a rope schemes, but its not at all a roping fight because everyone can catch the cr8 by 30secs and attack, its more about who get the best hides, who is using weapons better than the other, and also who got the BEST crates.
SO, i propose, to balance default and rope schemes, that we delete shoppa of the list, because it doesnt reward the best roping team at all, and put BIG rr instead. This is not an old schemes, but not so new that it was, its been now a few years, there is a LOOOT of big rr maps, and its a good roping fight that reward the best roping team. So that would make 4 rope schemes that all reward the best roping team/player.
And about hysteria/t17, i propose to remove one of these 2, which I think don't reward the best player most of cases, and put Intermediate instead.
I know a lot of people pick hysteria so I don't think there is a chance to change it by intermediate, even if i'd prefer elite/bng/t17/intermediate than elite/bng/hyst/intermediate because t17 needs more skill than hyst. Hyst for me is more a fun schemes for Free League and doesn't deserve to be in Classic Leagues where only the most skilled and less lucky schemes should be.
That's it :D
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Remove Hysteria, perhaps Shopper too. Add Intermediate.
If this ain't noob-friendly enough, let us pr0s have a pr0 league.
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Do u want to remove just the schemes what u arent so good, is it? I didnt agree. All schemes have a luck percentage, some schemes have more luck (like Roper and t17), others less luck (Elite, TTRR).
TUS just needs to change the shopper scheme for now (imo). Even Hosting Buddy Shopper Scheme + !crate banana 0 + !fuse 3 is better than TUS Shopper scheme.
For the future, maybe SPW gave us a good idea about the TUS Leagues.
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Where is the thread Professor? The one where SPW gave ideas.
In my opinion Hysteria was added too "prematurely" to classic schemes because of the popularity. It's a fun scheme to play, but when you look at it as competitive scheme.. it just sucks. In what competitive scheme plopping your worms in the start could be beneficial other than Hysteria?
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Do u want to remove just the schemes what u arent so good, is it
I suck in every default, just look at my standings in those schemes...
I just think Classic League should be a Pro League and competitive and Hysteria/Shoppa/T17 are 2 schemes, on high lvl, that are not so pro. For example :
Mablak vs Random00 in RR/Roper/WxW(hard map) : Mab wins, he is faster and better roping player than Random00 (and Random00 has got a very good lvl), but in shoppa, They both play with a lot of reflection so the game won't be about who hide the best/who uses in the best way each weapon but only crates will decide who wins, because their level of roping is widely good enough to attack every turn. And this ain't normal because it's a roping schemes. It should reward the best roping player mostly.
In default : I think this is pretty much the same. Mab wins in Elite and BnG (even if Rdm00 is rly pro), but in hyst/t17, Rdm00 got chances because those schemes dont reward enough the best defaulter.
In summary, what i mean is that hyst/t17/shoppa, in high lvl, are too much lucky schemes, and don't deserve to be in Classic, but in Free League.
An other example : eS doing 2-3 vs mm in PO, winning t17 and hysteria, when mm got 50X their lvl.
This is like there is a roof of maximum of skills in t17+shoppa schemes and if both teams get to the roof, only luck will decide who win.
In hysteria it's not really luck, but its like having too much chances to come back on a game by using tactics as ploping worms, killing worms by a fall, using zook by below. Its like early and mid game are not at all important, only the end, and its stupid because for me a guy doing nice shots by lg, jetpack+lg (grenade or zook or anything) should get advantage compare to an other guy. But no, the other will just telecow, plop, or kill himself by fall, and have all chances to win in the end by zook from below. This is not winning by better skill...
Edit : I was just thinking: If we add some rules like : u cant suicide ur worms on purpose, u cant hide right and left to zook, then it would be interesting and the most skilled guy would win. The league is about who got the best skills, and getting an advantage by playing better early and mid game should have a consequence to the end of the game. Currently there is not at all.
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hey did you hear, rope and wxw are essentially the same scheme
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Where is the thread Professor? The one where SPW gave ideas.
In my opinion Hysteria was added too "prematurely" to classic schemes because of the popularity. It's a fun scheme to play, but when you look at it as competitive scheme.. it just sucks. In what competitive scheme plopping your worms in the start could be beneficial other than Hysteria?
Free, that's here:
TuS would be perfect with:
TUS-Default League [TDL] - (Elite, T17, BnG, Hysteria) - each one pick - Season: 1 month - Playofs Top 4 / 8 - Limit 30 / max. 4 games same opponent / Win-%: 50.
TUS-Roper League [TRL] - (TTRR, Roper, Shopper, WxW) - each one pick - Season: 1 month - Playofs Top 4 / 8 - Limit 30 / max. 4 games same opponent / Win-%: 50.
TUS-Champions League [TUS] - (Elite, TTRR, T17, Roper, BnG, Shopper, Hysteria, WxW) - each one pick - Season: 1 month - Playofs Top 8 - Limit 30 / max. 4 games same opponent / Win-%: 50.
TUS-Free League [TFL] - (with all schemes / modds in the world exept the "Top 8") - each one pick - Season: 3 or 4 month - Playoffs Top 4 or 8 - Limit 30 / max. 10 games same opponent / Win-%: 40
--> TUS-Rotated League: Cancelled.
System for all: Current one.
Thas my little shit for it. :)
=D
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3874528345th thread (partly) about Hysteria not suiting into classic league. When is it ever gonna be removed? :D
I agree btw. Changes to the classic league need to be done.
And I don't like SPWs idea, it's basically the same as right now but more leagues.
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3874528345th thread (partly) about Hysteria not suiting into classic league. When is it ever gonna be removed? :D
Eeeexactly.
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it's very popular amongst mods
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Hysteria is not going to be removed, because this is a democratic league, not a quality league and there are too many newbies out there who cannot play anything else and keep picking that scheme.
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T17 needed to be gotten rid off the classic league for a loooooong time. It's: a) lucky b) boring c) doesn't require any particular skills. Hysteria doesn't belong either, since it's basically a weird form of BnG with elements of really awkward and annoying gameplay (like the fact you put yourself in a disadvantage when you kill a worm, what the f@#!, seriously. Yeah, I know, the same applies to elite, but well :D).
Intermediate for sure must be brought in, but some kind of rule needs to be introduced to reduce potential wave of whining regarding game's nature to screw you with starting positions. It could be bo3 games (might take a lot of time, dunno how suitable is that), it could be "one restart" rule, it could be something else - some thinking is definitely required here.
Another potential scheme to be introduced to the classic league is WFW. While you can speculate about the map knowledge factor, this scheme for sure requires both strategic insight and various weapon skills. Why not a classic league material?
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Hysteria is not going to be removed, because this is a democratic league, not a quality league and there are too many newbies out there who cannot play anything else and keep picking that scheme.
Intermediate is just perfect fill for this gap, Ray.
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Intermediate is just perfect fill for this gap, Ray.
Or boomrace
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Or boomrace
Go bitch somewhere else, please.
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Hysteria is not going to be removed, because this is a democratic league, not a quality league and there are too many newbies out there who cannot play anything else and keep picking that scheme.
Well if you say so, there is no chance to remove it, I think all "pros" want to remove it and all "news" want to keep it.
So yes, democraticly, it should stay then.
What about adding rules as I said ? Honestly the game is rly better if u remove all plops, suicides, and zook from below and the most skill early and mid game will have real advatange at the end..
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Another potential scheme to be introduced to the classic league is WFW. While you can speculate about the map knowledge factor, this scheme for sure requires both strategic insight and various weapon skills. Why not a classic league material?
Not in its current shape (mainly maps and rules/penalties). It gets repetitive and biased if you dont know every map that doesnt have to be league-worthy. Hopefully some day we will see a proper random WFW map generator with some other sweet additions, then the scheme will be on top in competition and fun.
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a proper random WFW map generator
I like this. I wonder if I'll have time to take a try on this one, but it certainly sounds like something doable.
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Its already been done (http://worms2d.info/MapGEN), but wrong.
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the same player who supports the fact that the worse player can win a ttrr, is now crying about "undeserved wins" in other schemes?
i also dont like how you generalize all hysteria supporter as noobs, afaik almog and komo like this scheme.
since we already discussed hysteria 1323242443535 times its not worth talking about it again.
i would feel very sad if T 17 gets removed. imo its seems to be the only scheme which doesnt turn into some robotic gameplay. also u have to think a bit more as in other schemes.
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If you remove hysteria, ps will remove me lol
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if u remove team17, i ll be noob again :(
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hyst sucks ;D
I think even boomrace is more competitive xD
maybe ropa was right with that, nappy :P
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Or boomrace
Go bitch somewhere else, please.
Bitch about what? Isn't this a thread were everyone can give their random suggestions?
Flori, do you know what's the difference between a new player and an old player voting? The old player has the chance to vote based on experience and knowledge, the new player can only vote based on premature taste.
I understand the principle about democracy, but you people seem unable to comprehend the long term effects of allowing such a thing to take over the decision making. Most new players don't like Elite, because they don't understand it, if they were given a chance to vote between Elite and Hysteria they'll do without Elite. Now, do you realize how many new players have become very good elite players because they were introduced to the scheme by league competition? They were forced to learn it to compete and now they love it (I speak for many people who are active nowadays and used to be not more than ropers). Do you even understand what's at stake or you just want this league to enhance your personal enjoyment just because, including making contradictory statements all over the place regarding league logic?
If you follow this path of casualness, hhcness or whateverness, there will never be another Mablak
edit: MI can you fix the bug were when you press edit it erases the beginning of the post
edit2: I managed to recreate it, basically when you quote someone and then edit your own pots it will erase the begining of the text: [quot
so the post starts like e"]
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*disclaimer* Below content is not pointing to anyone directly.
You want me change Classic league schemes based on your taste.
Master a scheme, then come here and tell me "hey I'm so good in this scheme but I say this scheme is flawed for Classic league". Bring Dario here and let him tell me that Intermediate does not suit Classic league.
All I see is your unwillingness to learn a new scheme. As a league admin, I did got involved with all the schemes here and I tried to get a grip on all. I see uniqueness in every scheme being there.
Team17 is a very advanced scheme. You call it lucky because your mind can't see passed the crates just like people who can't see passed Intermediate random placements and call that a noob scheme.
The only update in the list is to do something with broken BnG and insert Intermediate in.
Many of you have forgotten this is a community, we need people in order to survive. The shinny "quality league" of yours will die in its first month because 20 people will see themselves on the list and switch places. They will get bored before you know. A king needs his people in order to rule. There will be no kingdom if you remove all the normal people.
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hey MI, what about the shopper scheme?
Man, this scheme is boring. The ammos are unbalanced and there are many useless weapons in the arsenal. Why we dont try change it?
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*disclaimer* Below content is not pointing to anyone directly.
You want me change Classic league schemes based on your taste.
Master a scheme, then come here and tell me "hey I'm so good in this scheme but I say this scheme is flawed for Classic league". Bring Dario here and let him tell me that Intermediate does not suit Classic league.
All I see is your unwillingness to learn a new scheme. As a league admin, I did got involved with all the schemes here and I tried to get a grip on all. I see uniqueness in every scheme being there.
Team17 is a very advanced scheme. You call it lucky because your mind can't see passed the crates just like people who can't see passed Intermediate random placements and call that a noob scheme.
I agree up to this point
Many of you have forgotten this is a community, we need people in order to survive. The shinny "quality league" of yours will die in its first month because 20 people will see themselves on the list and switch places. They will get bored before you know. A king needs his people in order to rule. There will be no kingdom if you remove all the normal people.
I don't understand what you mean with this. You obviously need people but you can't expect these people to make the best decisions for themselves all the time, because many times they won't. You need to listen to those that give argumentations for the good of the league and the competition and not those who vote based on personal enjoyment. What Freeman says has a lot of importance, it's not just about making the league elisits in where 20 people compete it's about maintaining a certain minimum of elitism. A league shouldn't be something anyone can jump in and compete, there's nothing wrong in requiring a player to learn certain schemes, because like I said, many of these schemes can only be really enjoyed once you fully understand them.
There's no reason why a thread couldn't pop up with a different flori asking for Elite to be removed because well, it's really hard and new players prefer other shit. Well, who cares? Force them to Elite. They will thank you in the long term.
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Peja :I dont see the link with the rr. For me if a guy did the same second time in 1 game he deserves to have a chance to win on a 2nd game. Even if he is worse. Whats the link with hyst? I said in hyst a guy playing better whole early and mid game should have more chances at the end. With current rules, all the end of hyst games are same, doesnt bother if someone was better early and mid.
I never said hyst is for noobs
hyst sucks ;D
I think even boomrace is more competitive xD
maybe ropa was right with that, nappy :P
Said number 1 of hysteria in tus league.
ropa : yes its true about the elite thing. I used to hate elite coz i sucked, then i learned it coz i wanted to be good overall and started to like it, now i dislike it again because i suck. But I didn't get the link with hyst^^
*disclaimer* Below content is not pointing to anyone directly.
You want me change Classic league schemes based on your taste.
Master a scheme, then come here and tell me "hey I'm so good in this scheme but I say this scheme is flawed for Classic league". Bring Dario here and let him tell me that Intermediate does not suit Classic league.
All I see is your unwillingness to learn a new scheme. As a league admin, I did got involved with all the schemes here and I tried to get a grip on all. I see uniqueness in every scheme being there.
Team17 is a very advanced scheme. You call it lucky because your mind can't see passed the crates just like people who can't see passed Intermediate random placements and call that a noob scheme.
The only update in the list is to do something with broken BnG and insert Intermediate in.
Many of you have forgotten this is a community, we need people in order to survive. The shinny "quality league" of yours will die in its first month because 20 people will see themselves on the list and switch places. They will get bored before you know. A king needs his people in order to rule. There will be no kingdom if you remove all the normal people.
Man it's not about me. I gave u Rdm+Mab example and told all reasons why i think we have to remove these schemes.
I suck in elite and bng also, did i say i want to remove these schemes ?
I dont like hysteria yes, I gave the reasons why. You can do 0 good shots, just use TPs to pile (and next turn drop an easy attack) or to plop or to hide, and be at the end of the game with equal chances of winning the game, even if ur opponent used jetpack, lg, grenades, zooks, cocktails as a pro.
So yes, now i understood that we cant remove hysteria co its too much picked, coz without it the league wouldnt be active enough, but still we gotta do something so the guy playing very better than his opponent early and mid game has a lot more of chances to win at the end...
T17 and shoppa, is it possible to see the pourcentage of picks ? The league won't become inactive if we remove those schemes. As ropa said, some new people didn't like elite and now really enjoy it because they had to learn it, it'll do the same in intermediate i think. Maybe not, but doesnt it worth a try ? I suck more in Intermediate than in t17, be sure of this.
Remove shoppa and put big rr, for sure there'll be more games in the league. I see a lot of big rr hosts in wormnet, not so much shoppa. You were saying "Many of you have forgotten this is a community, we need people in order to survive." You'll get more people by putting big rr and removing shoppa.
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MI has a good point there. At the moment we have a good mix of luck and competition.
We just dont have enough people here to take away more luck. If you do this, games will get boring very fast and the number of avoiding problems will increase.
There are simply not enough players that have approximately the same skill level in every scheme.
and btw: Hysteria involves more skill than you might think. But it has some flaws that can't be repaird by just making some rules or modify the scheme a bit.
But I still think we need Hysteria in this league (e.g. look at the number of Hysteria games being played on tus).
Inter is a good scheme for competitive gaming, and we have a lot of players playing this, but we need to adjust the league system for inter to fit in, imo. Basically thats because I think you need to play bo3 at least (correct me if im wrong here) and this simply takes too much time. So you need to get more points for this and also have different ratings depening if the result was 2:1 or 2:0.
edit:
@Flori's talk about start of a game or midgame.
Just compare it to rr where you do a great run, but knock your head 5 secs before finish. You still played better start and midgame, but lose the game, becauuse you dont finish.
The end of the game is always what matters in ANY scheme. The difference in hysteira is, that you call something a bad start which in fact is not a bad start. Shooting your own worms is far worse in other schemes than it is in hysteria. But also in Hysteria you can play bad at the start and have a disadvantage later (Playing bad is just defined different in hyst than in other schemes).
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i agree about that hysteria thing ;p but i would like to see aerial in classic league.. u cant do lame things there.. and u need to be pretty skilled.
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Master a scheme, then come here and tell me "hey I'm so good in this scheme but I say this scheme is flawed for Classic league". Bring Dario here and let him tell me that Intermediate does not suit Classic league.
Gabriel is actually one of the best (or hardest trying? I dunno) Hysteria players out there and came here to say it sucks and is not exactly league worthy. :) The flaws in the scheme have been pointed out numerous times so it's not even a matter of "I lose Hysteria all the time, remove it" or anything along those lines, the claims do have their foundation.
Random: What about the time when Hysteria didn't even exist as a league scheme? It hasn't been around for that long and people already played leagues before it appeared. I don't think general activity would decrease by a whole lot to be honest.
Edit: I think I said this a while back but, we created a monster by accepting Hysteria in classic league...
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@Flori's talk about start of a game or midgame.
Just compare it to rr where you do a great run, but knock your head 5 secs before finish. You still played better start and midgame, but lose the game, becauuse you dont finish.
The end of the game is always what matters in ANY scheme. The difference in hysteira is, that you call something a bad start which in fact is not a bad start. Shooting your own worms is far worse in other schemes than it is in hysteria. But also in Hysteria you can play bad at the start and have a disadvantage later (Playing bad is just defined different in hyst than in other schemes).
Its not start and mid game, its start and mid turn you are talking about in RR.
But even if it is for you, it's nothing like hyst, because if you fail your early and mid (turn then), you cant win by an only good end.
What you are saying after is true, hysteria ain't like other schemes, coz killing himself in this schemes is sometimes better than doing a 45 nade shot.
Of course the end of game is always what matters in ANY schemes, but the goal of every game SHOULD be to TRY to get an advantage early and mid game, so you have more chances to win at the end, right ?
But in hyst, someone getting advantage early and mid game dont have more chances to win at the end, because his opponent will just zook from below while you cant reach him.
EDIT : The idea of the topic was to remove t17 or hyst and shoppa from classic league and add big rr/inter.
I think we can say now there is no way we can remove hyst, so maybe we should try to focus on t17/shoppa/big rr/inter and stop talking about hyst on this topic^^.
Don't you think t17 and shoppa are not enough picked to be in classic ? / Not enough skilled schemes ?
Don't you think inter and big rr should have a chance in classic league ? Inter can be interesting, it requires a lot of reflection, focus, and brainthinking to min and big rr is a lot played in normal and can make more people play the league.
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i agree about that hysteria thing ;p but i would like to see aerial in classic league.. u cant do lame things there.. and u need to be pretty skilled.
Aerial could as well be a flavor of the month pretty much like WfW was. Why are people so hesitant into changing the league to fit the schemes they like instead of trying to learn the basic pillar schemes (which will help them greatly with new and upcoming schemes)?
It's a rhetorical question, obviously the answer is because they've been allowed to think that way. We could as well all vote in favor of Aerial in the classic league and it gets added, like hysteria, and it's later, months later, when we start discussing if it's an actual good league scheme and noticing it's flaws. Do you think this is an effective way of running things? Because noobs aren't always noobs, they might vote in favor of hysteria because they got good at it fast (it's scheme with a really short learning curve) and once they're good like Gabriel they realize it has a bunch of flaws (not as a scheme but as a league scheme), this can all be predicted to an extent but certainly not by allowing everyone to have a voice on the matter.
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I'm sure it will drop activity in tus when removing hysteria. That would be the wrong way.
TUS already losing people cause of TEL closing. I imagine what happens when Hysteria is gone.
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darKz,
Gabriel is one of the best Hysteria players, true. But he has so much passion for winning that losing in Hysteria makes him get fed up. Besides did I miss him being here saying Hysteria is flawed? you mean this one "Hysteria sux ;D" ?
sm0k,
Aerial is an infant scheme, it needs to get spread way more.
Flori,
Hysteria is not only about good shots. A good shot doesn't necessarily means a good move in hysteria and many times can be a bad move while in other schemes a good shot is a good turn. In order to win Hysteria, you gotta manage the whole game which mostly is way more than good shots.
SPW,
How did we lose people by closing TEL? I thought people played it less and less. (getting tempted to bring it out one more season just to see who was right!)
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Why do people mind so much about shopping? I rarely lose vs noobs in that. It's far from just luck, you can achieve a lot by thinking right. Same with T17. It's more brain-labour than roper and probably more than wxw as well (not to mention ttrr/bng).
And hyst... I do agree that there are things about it that just aren't 100% right, like the telecowing and the hiding at the sides. But right now, I pick it a lot cause I don't enjoy the other schemes as much. Even with all the flaws it's a fun scheme to play.
Classic league = most popular league, I think that has been mentioned before. Taking it apart to suit players will never work cause everyone has their own favs. There's people who even enjoy BnG the most. It would be sad to take it out, cause it might just kill the BnG-community and with that a style of play that has long been considered an art.
But I suppose MI means we should thwart the scheme instead. I'm all for that, but, in all honesty and modesty.. I don't believe it can be. Komo's unanchored BnG is pretty much the same and when you take it a little further like in the BnG scheme that I posted.. you'll run into problems regarding cheap play (you can either pile or walk to your opponent, which isnt very bng-like..; artillery in that sense is better but it's fairly boring and helps notchers..). Anyway... my 2 cents.
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SPW,
How did we lose people by closing TEL? I thought people played it less and less. (getting tempted to bring it out one more season just to see who was right!)
Well, its "only" a hand full, maybe bit more. Guys like dilboy, tony, jakka, doubletime (!) dont play classic if I'm right. And there's me, without a clan with (my) default schemes senseless to keep staying. Not everyone has a clan where he can play default schemes. What should a defaulter or eliter do?
Its not a big amount, I agree. But we have to care every single active player to keep him in touch with worms.
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darKz,
Gabriel is one of the best Hysteria players, true. But he has so much passion for winning that losing in Hysteria makes him get fed up. Besides did I miss him being here saying Hysteria is flawed? you mean this one "Hysteria sux ;D" ?
Yeah that's what I meant actually. Why does it have to be people who are great at the scheme telling you (and others) what's wrong with a scheme? I could be awesome at Hysteria if I had a better mouse, I got the BnG and the tactics down no doubt and pretty much only fail at teleporting sometimes due to bad hardware. Am I not entitled my - by the way entirely logical and not biased - opinion about the flaws in the scheme? :)
@HHC: You're right about popularity being the main factor to decide the league schemes. But what's the worth in having 100 noobs (sorry) pick Hysteria nonstop in the league while 50 oldschoolers hate the scheme and eventually stop playing the league? Don't point your finger at the numbers, they're not real obviously. :P
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i agree about that hysteria thing ;p but i would like to see aerial in classic league.. u cant do lame things there.. and u need to be pretty skilled.
Aerial could as well be a flavor of the month pretty much like WfW was. Why are people so hesitant into changing the league to fit the schemes they like instead of trying to learn the basic pillar schemes (which will help them greatly with new and upcoming schemes)?
>>> Very well said;.
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If you all played with the correct schemes and not tus and improve some of the rules, bng, t17 and shopper would be fixed and wouldn't need to be removed in your silly arguments
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If you're not going to remove Hysteria, then could we at least do something about it? It could be a great scheme and it is unique, but no scheme can be so "lame" without being broken.. at least lower the SD time so forcing SD (to prevent lame gameplay) doesn't give the enemy 10 free turns to attack.
I think this would fix most of the problems since it works as anti-lame tactic.
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@HHC: You're right about popularity being the main factor to decide the league schemes. But what's the worth in having 100 noobs (sorry) pick Hysteria nonstop in the league while 50 oldschoolers hate the scheme and eventually stop playing the league? Don't point your finger at the numbers, they're not real obviously. :P
The number of oldschool players who quit classic league cause of hyst will never be more than a handful.
Killing the most popular scheme among a LARGE portion of TUS players just doesn't seem like a good idea to me.
I'm not against making classic really CLASSIC though, but there will be a big debate about which scheme belongs where and which doesn't. And for the veterans themselves.. I kinda fear that their beloved classic league will lose a fairly large portion of players when they have 'lighter' leagues to play for. You kinda NEED hysteria to be there. Right?
Surely the popularity of the league is more important than the little nuissance called hyst? ???
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Surely the popularity of the league is more important than the little nuissance called hyst? ???
My personal opinion should be obvious enough. :D
Back when I was a noob I picked T17 all the time because it was the only scheme where I had decent winning odds due to crate luck. Nowadays it's Hysteria where there's not even crates. I'll let you guys do the conclusion to this statement.
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Why do people mind so much about shopping? I rarely lose vs noobs in that. It's far from just luck, you can achieve a lot by thinking right. Same with T17. It's more brain-labour than roper and probably more than wxw as well (not to mention ttrr/bng).
Because the scheme is bad and the community is not enforced (or hasn't been educated) on using proper maps.
I do agree with you whatsoever that in shopper it's really easy to nullify a noob and I'm against the removal of the scheme of classic league. I think in FB days it was proven that it could be a very successful league scheme in singles and in clanners when some clans actually became really good at it.
edit: removed offtopic
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https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/schemes-13/schemes-tus-vs-newbs/msg121765/#msg121765
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darKz,
Gabriel is one of the best Hysteria players, true. But he has so much passion for winning that losing in Hysteria makes him get fed up. Besides did I miss him being here saying Hysteria is flawed? you mean this one "Hysteria sux ;D" ?
Thats why maybe u havent seen me playing hyst for leagues but trl...
That scheme was just killing me...
By the way i think hyst is a funner-made scheme. I dont think who made it had the intention or purpose to get it into a league.
Hyst is ofc a scheme that has a lot of fails... teleports shouldnt have ever been unlimited.
Aerial fixed that great point that imo changes the whole scheme.
Aerial is a new scheme, I like it more than hyst (I hate it, it personally killed even my personal life sometimes) and screws up the most of lame moves that so much complainings have gotten.
I am doing a comparison, may be really pathetic as peja would say but lameness in hyst, is done everywhere, I get telecowed even in elite :P ;D
Well, as I said hyst should be a fun scheme for funners... We already screwed it up with these all things and telecows and blablablablaba.
Theres lamers everywhere, but they only can lame if you let them lame.
PD: I suck at it
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the same player who supports the fact that the worse player can win a ttrr, is now crying about "undeserved wins" in other schemes?
I was thinking this too lol, alot of these guys were only last week screaming and almost crying in the RR ms thread, saying "PLEASE, PLEASE MR MONKEYISLAND, PLEASE DON'T TAKE AWAY OUR FUN DRAWS!!! OH WHAT WILL WE DO IF WE LOSE, BECAUSE WE LOST, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO WIN IF WE LOST, LIKE SPARTACUS!"
Yet, they want to take away, the most commonly fun scheme on TuS, and one of the most fun, easy to play and entertaining, not to mention one of the most competitive schemes WA has ever had if you have the skill level of players like me and Random for example competing against each other, you can't bash the scheme just because most of it's players aren't as good as the few really top players it has, if the whole world played WA, Hyst would be #1 and you would all shut the fk up.
Once you realise, a win is a win, a loss is a loss, the knowledge of what needs to be done, how to do it and when it needs to be done, makes this a great scheme in the right hands and in the right minds, actually one of the least lucky schemes i've ever played, and i've been playing WA since 1999, and I am RIDICULOUSLY competitive.
The way TuS is now, and always will be better than the way any of you guys would run it if you had the chance, I really don't know how MI has managed to do this for so long, with this much drama on a daily basis, it's impressive, no, it's miraculous.
I see so many people asking for things they would soon forget about and get bored if it actually happened. They will ALWAYS find something to complain about, not because they are unhappy with TUS, but because they are unhappy with their lifes.
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my thoughts:
hysteria is about micromanagement(?). I don't even know if that is the right word... but you have 1 second to do a move, you need to be quick with your fingers, it's fast, it is intense. I think that's the theme of hysteria, hence the name. The problem is, the duration of time to make a move (1 sec) is too short and is abused. You can rotate rape someone because in 1 second, it is very hard to properly defend your other worms, etc. The concept of hysteria is a great one, but because of the turn time, the game is broken. Here we have an artillery, destructible, gritty combat scheme where getting the shit blown out of you all game means absolutely nothing because you can abuse the scheme. We've had this discussion before; there's no risk in hysteria, tactics are piss poor because nothing matters until it is 1v1. Early and mid game are absolutely pointless. This is very bad for this kind of scheme. I like to call late game "luckyshotgg" time. A lot will probably disagree with this viewpoint, but when it is 1v1 and you're teleporting all over the map and you only have 1 second to aim these shots, then yeah, it's luckyshotgg, unless you're someone like komo, and we already have a scheme that purely rewards on nade accuracy... I mean when you have 1 second to make a move, you can barely your worm, you can't set up your shot, you just have to take it, and when your nade does 5 crazy ass bounces and somehow hits me, I'm not going to consider that skill.
With all that being said, Aerial far better rewards micromanagement skills. With 3 seconds, you can travel fairly far with the jetpack, you can land somewhere, use a weapon, etc. You cover more ground and anyone who thinks they can kill their own worm to rotate is sadly mistaken. With 3 seconds, it is doable (with skill) to jp to a worm, land, and firepunch the enemy right off your ally. With 3 seconds, you can thwart your darksiding opponent because you have enough time to float down to him and try to f@#! him up. There's risk and there are far more tactics. More jetpack skills, just more options for more things, and 3 seconds (still a short time, a lot of hysteria with fingers pressing keys fast and stuff) allows you to do a lot more things than you could ever do in hysteria. It's not a broken scheme in that regard like hysteria is. Hysteria is so limiting and people abuse that which creates a poor competitive scheme.
HOWEVER - do some of you seriously want to add aerial in the league right now as it is? holy shit, I thought the opposition against precise times in ttrr was the saddest moment in this "competitive" league.
What a poor decision that would be. a scheme with random placing, random mines, random mine fuses, random weapons crate drops, random utility crate drops, random health crate drops, and god knows what you'll get in those utility and weapon crates. You call that league worthy? You don't even have to play the scheme once to know how awful that sounds for a competitive league scheme. I've gotten supersheeps in crates before, airstrikes, homing missiles, etc, which is pretty much instant win if you don't play like a complete derp the entire game. You start with 5 girders and 1 teleport which can get abused so hard.
I've lost a game before when my opponent got a random crate drop early in the game, 15 minutes later, I get point-clicked airstriked for the loss. I mean if you can get a supersheep in a random crate, as soon as you have 1 worm I guess it's time to run for the hills and darkside or else you simply lose because they got a broken weapon. And it doesn't even matter how well you played all game - nothing will change the fact that your opponent got a lucky SS/airstrike crate and brainlessly won. That's my problem with t17 - it's so silly to lose a game even tho you played so much better than your opponent just because he point-clicked patsy'd you. The same thing can happen in aerial.
MI has a good point there. At the moment we have a good mix of luck and competition.
We just dont have enough people here to take away more luck. If you do this, games will get boring very fast and the number of avoiding problems will increase.
There are simply not enough players that have approximately the same skill level in every scheme.
Man, it's statements like these that keep preventing change in the league, and it blows my mind how statements like these are so easily accepted despite the lack of actual evidence and argumentation. How do you know games will get boring very fast when we've never actually made these changes to the league? How do you know avoiding problems will increase when we've never actually made these changes to the league? Why does your last sentence even matter? Other gaming leagues don't nurture their noobs with luck, people just play and get better because they like the game. And can we all stop acting like removing firepunch from shoppa is going to cause catastrophic changes to the scheme and scare everyone away? Back to your "avoiding problems will increase" statement, do you actually believe using precise times in ttrr will be the difference between one player/clan playing another player/clan? You say avoiding will increase, are you trying to say right now some people aren't avoiding because they feel comfortable playing schemes knowing luck may give them a chance to win? If so, is that the kind of thing we want for a COMPETITIVE league? That contradicts the idea behind a competitive league, think about it. We keep enforcing these policies that preserve the luck, the fun, the shit that keeps noobs playing, all while pretending like this is a competitive league. I don't understand the thought process. Like, it's amazing that people still settle for the zook-first-turn rule in roper - you're forced to use the zook, a weapon affected by the random wind generator, and with roper maps traditionally having odd shaped hides, you could easily be denied an attack first turn. What happens when someone proposes to fix such a scheme flaw? The same people come out of the woodwork to throw around buzzwords and phrases like "fun", "luck", "the scheme will become boring", "this will lead to avoiding", "we'll lose players" etc... PROVE IT!!!!!! STOP TALKING OUT OF YOUR ASSES!!!!
I know you guys hate Komo-long posts, but come on, it's time to wake up. Some of us are compelled to write out big-ass posts explicitly arguing our side rather than posting a couple sentences of subjective bullshit like "you're taking the fun out of the schemes". If you'd actually give these changes a try, I'm willing to bet things wouldn't take a drastic turn of events like you fear. If you're really going to stop playing the league because the faster roperacers will actually get awarded the win, then good, get the f@#! out. (this post wasn't directed towards anyone particular, but definitely directed towards a certain mentality)
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So I actually bothered to read your post.
Yet, they want to take away, the most commonly fun scheme on TuS, and one of the most fun, easy to play and entertaining, not to mention one of the most competitive schemes WA has ever had if you have the skill level of players like me and Random for example competing against each other, you can't bash the scheme just because most of it's players aren't as good as the few really top players it has, if the whole world played WA, Hyst would be #1 and you would all shut the fk up.
Dude you sound like a MASSIVE fanboy.
If you really want to win Hyst you'll be teleporting around to places where you can't be hit until your opponent gets bored and stays in a stupid hide just to get a shot which he'll 99% miss or enforces SD where it becomes a gamble (the one enforcing SD is not always the one at advantage) - Hysteria can take 1h+ in this way, I've seen it all... If by now you still don't get what's f@#!ed up with the scheme, forget it, you probably don't want to see it.
Once you realise, a win is a win, a loss is a loss, the knowledge of what needs to be done, how to do it and when it needs to be done, makes this a great scheme in the right hands and in the right minds, actually one of the least lucky schemes i've ever played, and i've been playing WA since 1999, and I am RIDICULOUSLY competitive.
I don't think you have deeper insight into "Hysteria tactics" than anyone else here. If you do, I'd like to see some of your awesome plays please.
I see so many people asking for things they would soon forget about and get bored if it actually happened. They will ALWAYS find something to complain about, not because they are unhappy with TUS, but because they are unhappy with their lifes.
How come that most of the time you try to underline your statement with a ridiculously childish claim at the end? xD!
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Dude you sound like a MASSIVE fanboy.
If you really want to win Hyst you'll be teleporting around to places where you can't be hit until your opponent gets bored and stays in a stupid hide just to get a shot which he'll 99% miss or enforces SD where it becomes a gamble (the one enforcing SD is not always the one at advantage) - Hysteria can take 1h+ in this way, I've seen it all... If by now you still don't get what's f@#!ed up with the scheme, forget it, you probably don't want to see it.
You are wrong immediately because you are taking time into account, if you truly enjoy something, it doesn't matter how long it takes, it's worth it.
Once you realise, a win is a win, a loss is a loss, the knowledge of what needs to be done, how to do it and when it needs to be done, makes this a great scheme in the right hands and in the right minds, actually one of the least lucky schemes i've ever played, and i've been playing WA since 1999, and I am RIDICULOUSLY competitive.
I don't think you have deeper insight into "Hysteria tactics" than anyone else here. If you do, I'd like to see some of your awesome plays please.
I am way better at BnG than you, this is my ONLY secret weapon, and the occasional "idea" of risky shots only I would think of lol.
You spent as much time with grenades and zooks as I have, and you could be as good.
I am just a genius at BnG, just like Ronnie O Sullivan @ Snooker, of course snooker is WAAAAAAAAAY harder, I only say this cuz you can't notch snooker lol.
This sounds egotistical as hell man lol, but it's my only real proof of why Hysteria is competitive... Everyone I know who says it sucks, isn't good enough to get past the frustrations of the lame parts about it. There is lame things about EVERY scheme ever.
I think you all jealous cuz a scheme you all can't "perfect" is the most popular in TUS lol, while your precious Elite & TTRR doesn't even come close to it haha.
I see so many people asking for things they would soon forget about and get bored if it actually happened. They will ALWAYS find something to complain about, not because they are unhappy with TUS, but because they are unhappy with their lifes.
How come that most of the time you try to underline your statement with a ridiculously childish claim at the end? xD!
Cuz I honestly believe it lol. I know cuz i've been there, I f@#!ed up with some of my mates in b2b (among other things in life) cuz I had a shitty life last year, but this year is better cuz all the hard work I put in.
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They will ALWAYS find something to complain about, not because they are unhappy with TUS, but because they are unhappy with their lifes.
Thats a slippery slope there Komo. Its like saying "everything is relevant", you can "win"/bypass all arguments in life like this :P
Saying, "you simply say this cuz your life sucks", is the equivalent of, "fu and gtfo", its mere insulting and doesn't at all address the issues at hand.
As for Hyst as a scheme, I dislike it, I believe it is the most broken scheme, the 2nd most easily abused (bng wins this as you all know), but I simply dont care enough about it anymore. I doubt that not caring is a good thing but this is what has happened after so many arguments on the subject.
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I am way better at BnG than you
You spent as much time with grenades and zooks as I have, and you could be as good.
I am just a genius at BnG
Everyone I know who says it sucks, isn't good enough
I think you all jealous
my god drop the anti depressants
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Dese, it's partly true lol, I know alot of people on WA in a close way, I know some of these guys are having tough times, it's just a way of life, people who are generally unhappy, will complain about something in whatever they are involved in...
ropa, who cares what anyone thinks, it's the truth, boo hoo hoo, cry me a river lol, if they are bothered, then they should get better, I shouldn't have to get worse, or be forced to play schemes that have too much f@#!ing luck that I can't control, and because I can't control it I can't enjoy it, because there is too much luck.
I said they are jealous that Hyst is better than Elite/TTRR, not because of my BnG, I don't ruin threads, the truth does, I am just the guy who wants to tell it.
ropa you've edited that 3 times now wtf, make up your mind lol.
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Dese, it's partly true lol, I know alot of people on WA in a close way, I know some of these guys are having tough times, it's just a way of life, people who are generally unhappy, will complain about something in whatever they are involved in...
Yes, everyone who argues with logic about hysteria being an awful league scheme are just sad people in real life.
I think you're the only one with real issues here, and I'm not even joking. I see evidence everywhere of you suffering NPD. Please do consult an specialist, for your own good, and the forum's.
Bye
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Dese, it's partly true lol, I know alot of people on WA in a close way, I know some of these guys are having tough times, it's just a way of life, people who are generally unhappy, will complain about something in whatever they are involved in...
The fact that it's true still doesn't change the fact that the matters/issues we're discussing remain not addressed.
I don't ruin threads, the truth does
To be honest, this quote is just ridiculous xd
I am just the guy who wants to tell it.
you sir, are one badass crusader xd (http://www.vgcore.com/forum/avatars/crusader.gif?dateline=1179115481)
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Lmfao Dese, nice pic xD
And just lol @ ropa.
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You are wrong immediately because you are taking time into account, if you truly enjoy something, it doesn't matter how long it takes, it's worth it.
I don't enjoy teleporting around for 30+ minutes just for the sake of my opponent getting bored. Do you?
I am way better at BnG than you, this is my ONLY secret weapon, and the occasional "idea" of risky shots only I would think of lol.
You spent as much time with grenades and zooks as I have, and you could be as good.
Yeah yeah, you're great at BnG and all that, but to be honest I knew this would be your answer so it's not surprising.. Let me sum this up. I've asked you what your special tactics are because you said you knew what to do and when to do it, you said you're on par with Random, and all you were talking about was the BnG part of Hysteria. Made a good point there I must say.
Drop the childish act already, you're not even talking about facts besides "how awesome you are".. Leave that to fictional characters like Barney Stinson..
I've made tons of good points why Hysteria in itself is flawed, others also have, you don't even answer to those points, you just say "I'm awesome at BnG, you're all jealous because that means I pwn Hysteria LOL". That's not even what this thread is about.
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Couple of weeks ago I was in #ag playing with Komo and he suggested we clanned but I was rusty as f@#!.
So he suggested we played hysteria because
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Because you still have good BnG skills and you are good enough at Hysteria that with me carrying you, we can win, it's like, when I do TTRR with daina, or Elite/T17 with daina, she carries me lol, I am good enough for her to do the job xD
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Because you still have good BnG skills and you are good enough at Hysteria that with me carrying you, we can win, it's like, when I do TTRR with daina, or Elite/T17 with daina, she carries me lol, I am good enough for her to do the job xD
No one carries anyone in TTRR, one good time doesn't beat two good times. In Elite, to an extent, certainly not as much as hysteria. Team17, I don't know, haven't played 2v2 t17 in a decade. Point is, we decided hysteria was the scheme we had more chances to win even with a super rusty me, because ultimately, it's the biggest gamble. It's the new scheme noobs pick to beat pros. Used to be team17.
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Maybe you thought and/or decided that, I just wanted to pick Hysteria, cuz it's my fav scheme atm.
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You can leave this thread now and stop pushing it even more off topic, you're close to destroying yet another serious thread with so far fairly constructive arguments.
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Ok, people can't handle truth, live in your damn fantasy world then.
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Awesome how threads getting so many pages ina short time. Just to much talk. ;/
"Walk The Talk"
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my thoughts:
[all the things about hysteria and aerial]
I absolutely agree with that.
Man, it's statements like these that keep preventing change in the league, and it blows my mind how statements like these are so easily accepted despite the lack of actual evidence and argumentation. [until the end of this post]
Well, if we could just restore the system to any given point, then I'd say: let's try it.
I just see that this league is running really well so far (I dont think there was any league that had this many games; correct me if Im wrong), and I'm afraid things get worse if you change stuff too fast.
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Could we stop argumenting on Hysteria and talk about t17 shoppa big rr and inter ?
If we want to do something about Hyst/Aerial, we'll have to post an other thread.
Honestly shoppa was, before hysteria, the schemes trying to attrack noobs to the league.
If there was only elite/bng+ttrr/roper, the league wouldnt be very popular and all news/noobs wouldn't start playing it.
I don't see a huge wave of people leaving tus because shoppa got kicked of classic league.
Big rr is played more and more and I do believe new people will join the league if they can pick this schemes.
+ the schemes is easy, there will not be any problem about "we must change rules, its not competitive enough", "too much luck involved".
Shoppa ain't really a roping schemes. Everyone which is not a total noob can attack on everyturn quite easily, this is more about who got the best tactic, who uses his brain the better, like default games.
3 roping games, 5 default games. Dunno why we couldn't try to put big rr in the league.
T17 and Inter, I'm proposing but i'm not the one who'll get the best arguments to keep/put it in the league, so I won't say much.
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Theres a topic about intermediate in classic league (https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-general/intermediate-and-classic-league/) already and its discussed almost completely just without final agreement, but its a matter of forcing some set of rules in league, its never gonna be perfect for everyone.
I dont know why you are insisting on Big RR, league schemes should be as diverse as possible from eachother and we already have RR.
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ADD KAOS ASDASD BITCHS ;D
btw flori your post was great till I read about big rr,I dont think that will be good to keep ttrr and big rr in same league
If I would be mod I'd delete roper cuz Im unluckiest roper player XD
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I disagree about Big RR too, it's more of a fun roping scheme.. No chance as long as its big bro TTRR is already in the league. :)
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Try aerial instead of hysteria, with some changes it's a very interesting scheme, with a very low percentage of luck.
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league schemes should be as diverse as possible from eachother and we already have RR.
quoting for importance. Please don't forget this makes sense when adding or deleting schemes from the all around league.
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At the moment I don't think a discussion of removing hysteria is on the table, since we're a community that the average person would probably consider barely alive, and we need something to lure people in.
Shopper seems to have become useless, we could replace it with Big RR as Flori said, but with the way ratings currently are, that would help out us good RRers too much, making things unbalanced (and MI, please note that players who are good at a scheme aren't always going to see them as league schemes). I'm still totally for adding intermediate as bo1 or bo2, but people should read and discuss in this thread: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/leagues-general/intermediate-and-classic-league/105/
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add bo1 intermediate
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I disagree about Big RR too, it's more of a fun roping scheme.. No chance as long as its big bro TTRR is already in the league. :)
Yeah TT RR and BIG RR are both extentions of RR but if you look upon the word Race, you'll see there is a big difference between the skills of both schemes.
In ttrr you have to control the rope in a very tight map and you dont go very fast, big rr maps are a lot wider and you have a lot of space to rope. TTRR is short, like 5 mins max, big rr is around 20 minutes...
Really, the only similar thing between those 2 schemes is the word Race...
Having great skills in ttrr doesnt mean having great skills in big rr, and the reverse is the same.
(I'm a good example for this, since i'm back i play a lot of ttrr, but a very few of wxw/roper/big rr and ive noticed i fall a lot, because i cant handle the speed.)
But if u look at shoppa and wxw, both schemes are really closer.
You start without weapon (zook unlimited for wxw but well thats tus schemes that decided it, before the tus schemes was even the same for both), crate before attack, attack by rope. Well, the only thing changing is that you have to hit walls in wxw. If you look 95/100 of wxw maps, we dont have to take much risks and we attack every turn, making it a shoppa.
So, really, if wxw could have been called Wall Shoppa without problem. This is just an extension of shoppa (as mole shoppa etc) as big rr and ttrr are for rr, and having more similitaries with shoppa than ttrr and big rr have together.
Edit : Just saw this in reading again :
I dont know why you are insisting on Big RR, league schemes should be as diverse as possible from eachother and we already have RR.
Yep then remove shoppa which is closer to wxw and put big rr which is less closer to ttrr.
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I disagree about Big RR too, it's more of a fun roping scheme.. No chance as long as its big bro TTRR is already in the league. :)
Yeah TT RR and BIG RR are both extentions of RR but if you look upon the word Race, you'll see there is a big difference between the skills of both schemes.
In ttrr you have to control the rope in a very tight map and you dont go very fast, big rr maps are a lot wider and you have a lot of space to rope. TTRR is short, like 5 mins max, big rr is around 20 minutes...
Really, the only similar thing between those 2 schemes is the word Race...
Having great skills in ttrr doesnt mean having great skills in big rr, and the reverse is the same.
(I'm a good example for this, since i'm back i play a lot of ttrr, but a very few of wxw/roper/big rr and ive noticed i fall a lot, because i cant handle the speed.)
But if u look at shoppa and wxw, both schemes are really closer.
You start without weapon (zook unlimited for wxw but well thats tus schemes that decided it, before the tus schemes was even the same for both), crate before attack, attack by rope. Well, the only thing changing is that you have to hit walls in wxw. If you look 95/100 of wxw maps, we dont have to take much risks and we attack every turn, making it a shoppa.
So, really, if wxw could have been called Wall Shoppa without problem. This is just an extension of shoppa (as mole shoppa etc) as big rr and ttrr are for rr, and having more similitaries with shoppa than ttrr and big rr have together.
Edit : Just saw this in reading again :
I dont know why you are insisting on Big RR, league schemes should be as diverse as possible from eachother and we already have RR.
Yep then remove shoppa which is closer to wxw and put big rr which is less closer to ttrr.
im right 100/100
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I see your point Flori and I would agree to remove Shopper if it was as roping-based as wXw is.. Shopper is more about using weapons to their full potential, knocking and piling. Many find wXw more interesting/fun because of the speedy roping part and that's their reason for badmouthing Shopper while in reality taking away the speed roping part leaves more time for knocking (a much underestimated skill by the way) and a proper attack. With a good scheme and map it's deeper as you might think. I'm all for rebalancing the Shopper scheme but definitely against removing it.
About Big RR, I know it's a different kind of roping but it's really much much more similar to RR. It would also destroy the default-roping-equilibrium. :)
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Saying Shopper and WxW are very similar is like saying Elite and T17 are very similar.
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You should considerate the "maps" aspect too. If you choose an hard shopper map, it needs many skills.
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Saying Shopper and WxW are very similar is like saying Elite and T17 are very similar.
I couldnt agree more!
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add bo1 intermediate
Don't forget Bo2 (with the option to play Bo3 if both players want to), franz.
That's definitely the way to go for TUS as far as I'm concerned. Darío and Mab both seem to support the idea and they're, well, Darío and Mab.
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I see your point Flori and I would agree to remove Shopper if it was as roping-based as wXw is..
About Big RR, I know it's a different kind of roping but it's really much much more similar to RR. It would also destroy the default-roping-equilibrium. :)
Well is there a default-roping-equilibrium as shoppa isnt based on rope ? Makes ttrr/roper/wxw based on rope and elite/t17/bng/hyst default. Shoppa is somewhere between ? My fingers says 3.5 schemes based on rope, 4.5 based on default.
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Don't twist words in my mouth, I never said Shopper was not a roping scheme. You have infinite ropes so it's quite obvious that it's exactly that. It's just not about roping very quick from spot A to spot B (we got 3 schemes covering this roping aspect) but rather about knocking, using weapons to their full potential etc, as I already said. :P
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I don't read the entire thread but I think that my opinion will fit here;
Well, If you want to be a good player in classic league a "pr0" then learn Hysteria, if you are playing classic league you must learn every scheme, hysteria has lot of tatics this is only boring and bad scheme for those who are lazy asses and don't want to learn it, removing scheme which you don't liek can't handle it.
And luck? Luck is there, you can't remove and/or decide who gonna receive it, even in TTRR sometimes luck can help you when your chute open and the wind push you closer to the map and you can't shot your rope, thats an example of luck (or bad luck).
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kaleu the main problem of hysteria is that every game can last 1 hour if both player are never bored and play their "life".
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I don't think so, I never seen a Hysteria match that lasted so long, because always someon will get bored and because it there's 10 seconds for sudden death, if your opponent is hiding in the side of the map and you find it stressful to hit, just skip some turns and the water will come up forcing him to tele.
edit: I don't undesrtood your post aswell, I just answered by my way, maybe I missed something in past posts, I'm sorry if it happened, anyway my opinion was given. ;)
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A lot of people who are experienced in hysteria have come out and pointed out the flaws of the scheme. Please stop saying we're against hysteria because we don't understand it/are too lazy to learn the right tactics.
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You do.
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kaleu the main problem of hysteria is that every game can last 1 hour if both player are never bored and play their "life".
That isn't everyones problem, that's YOUR problem, i've seen other schemes take ridiculously long times to finish, if 2 guys, want to play Hysterias for 1 hour, because they enjoy it so much, who the hell are you, or anyone, to stop them? Let them play it the way they want, and you play it the way you want.
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kaleu the main problem of hysteria is that every game can last 1 hour if both player are never bored and play their "life".
That isn't everyones problem, that's YOUR problem, i've seen other schemes take ridiculously long times to finish, if 2 guys, want to play Hysterias for 1 hour, because they enjoy it so much, who the hell are you, or anyone, to stop them? Let them play it the way they want, and you play it the way you want.
And then we complain how Intermediate shouldn't be added cos it takes too long.
Not everyone ENJOYS hour long hysterias but your opponent can FORCE you to play hour long hysteria unless you want to force SD which gives your opponent 10 free attacks and usually the best part of the map to control.
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Basically what Free said. Kaleu, read the thread before you post nonsense, Komo already said Hysteria has super special tactics to offer which noone knows about, but what he was actually talking about were his awesome and supreme BnG skills. What's your special tactic? Fingerroll? Don't make me laugh.
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If you don't enjoy an hour of Hysteria, then use SD, as simple as that.
I've never seen a Hysteria yet that took longer than 40 minutes, and i've seen plenty other schemes like WxW/T17/BnG take 30-40 minutes longer, with no complaints.
You guys are trying to use any lame excuse just to get rid of something you don't like, and it just won't work because Hysteria is too good.
I don't like other schemes, I don't try to get them pulled, I just live with them, you elitists are beginning to just be plain selfish, end of story.
And it's not JUST my skills darKz, I play the game properly, and I do use tactics maybe no one else has thought of, but that's MY knowledge and experience.
Edit: Does anyone actually remember when I used to moan like hell about Hysteria? Saying the exact same things these guys are saying against it? One mans trash is another mans treasure, the things they hate are the things we love, Hysteria is like Marmalite or whatever it's called, you either love it or hate it.
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If you don't enjoy an hour of Hysteria, then use SD, as simple as that.
I've never seen a Hysteria yet that took longer than 40 minutes, and i've seen plenty other schemes like WxW/T17/BnG take 30-40 minutes longer, with no complaints.
You guys are trying to use any lame excuse just to get rid of something you don't like, and it just won't work because Hysteria is too good.
I don't like other schemes, I don't try to get them pulled, I just live with them, you elitists are beginning to just be plain selfish, end of story.
And it's not JUST my skills darKz, I play the game properly, and I do use tactics maybe no one else has thought of, but that's MY knowledge and experience.
tl;dr - "You guys are just jealous because I own at BnG Hysteria and can think of stuff that you can't but I won't provide proof."
Seriously?
The flaws in the scheme are so obvious they're jumping right in your face yet you ignore them completely and just claim people don't enjoy it and that's why they want it removed. Way to go.
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tl;dr - "You guys are just jealous because I own at BnG Hysteria and can think of stuff that you can't but I won't provide proof."
Seriously?
The flaws in the scheme are so obvious they're jumping right in your face yet you ignore them completely and just claim people don't enjoy it and that's why they want it removed. Way to go.
I like how you in the last few days claimed someone was "twisting your words" and yet look, how stupid do you feel now regardless who realises it?
I never said that, you did, you think that, not me, I am confident, you guys mustn't be, I dunno, stop saying shit to make me look like I am saying stuff I am not lol.
If you truly believe, that that's what I think, they say that, state it's your OPINION.
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kaleu the main problem of hysteria is that every game can last 1 hour if both player are never bored and play their "life".
That isn't everyones problem, that's YOUR problem, i've seen other schemes take ridiculously long times to finish, if 2 guys, want to play Hysterias for 1 hour, because they enjoy it so much, who the hell are you, or anyone, to stop them? Let them play it the way they want, and you play it the way you want.
And then we complain how Intermediate shouldn't be added cos it takes too long.
Not everyone ENJOYS hour long hysterias but your opponent can FORCE you to play hour long hysteria unless you want to force SD which gives your opponent 10 free attacks and usually the best part of the map to control.
I agree with all of this.
I haven't read all the thread. But if people want to take an hour playing darksiding hysteria, let them enjoy that. If you'r stuck in a game where someone is darksiding, force sudden death.
If people are having hour long hysteria's, where is the harm in allowing inter bo1, or agreeing to bo2,bo3 (if people are happy playing for that amount of time then where is the harm in that?) Maybe make bo1 standard.. although there is luck in placements, but then luck makes worms fun, what makes a great player is still being able to win when luck has gone against him... Instead of crying about it cr8 rape, bad weapons in t17 or poor winds in bng, just get on, face the music and enjoy worms for what it is.
Shopper is great, comparing it to wxw is like comparing t17 and elite as random00 and others have said.
"If its not broke, don't fix it" - We are giving players the chance of playing schemes they enjoy in a league environment, it doesn't matter if some are tactically crap, or time consuming or less popular, the great thing is having the choice to be able to take part in competitive games across the schemes you enjoy. We're playing TuS to have fun, and because we enjoy competition. Nothing needs to be removed from classic league. Maybe consider adding inter. If you wanna play big RR, ask your opponent and if both players agree, why not?
I think what needs to be fixed is TUS t17 scheme, it needs to be more BOOM BOOM in my opinion with a larger amount of sudden death weapons. HHC's and FB's t17 schemes are far better. The majoirty of people argue about the 7 vs unlimited griders, but you can still play FB and HHC's scheme with 7 grides, I think the crates in tus t17 are the biggest problem. But thats only 1 out of 7 schemes that work well.
People talk about shopper being pointless, try beating Savage in a shopper and you'll see there are experts in that scheme. Again, the tus scheme in this could be editted if players want to. Try playing with my scheme with added miniguns and axe's to not create such a bais towards flame thrower.
Then there is the bng debate, people notch, some don't. Learn to darkside, and be comfortable knowing what the darkside rules are. Watch this clanner where barman and free are doing 4sec nades notched nades well. Through legal darksiding with nice bank shots CKC had a come back spell and i enjoyed this match regardless of what people say about notching. https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-116438/
At the end of the day feel happy theres a classic league that allows the majority of fun, tactical, and competitive games to be played that keep both ropers and defaulters happy.
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Great post Tom, i'm feeling it :)
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tl;dr - "You guys are just jealous because I own at BnG Hysteria and can think of stuff that you can't but I won't provide proof."
Seriously?
The flaws in the scheme are so obvious they're jumping right in your face yet you ignore them completely and just claim people don't enjoy it and that's why they want it removed. Way to go.
I like how you in the last few days claimed someone was "twisting your words" and yet look, how stupid do you feel now regardless who realises it?
I never said that, you did, you think that, not me, I am confident, you guys mustn't be, I dunno, stop saying shit to make me look like I am saying stuff I am not lol.
If you truly believe, that that's what I think, they say that, state it's your OPINION.
if you have the skill level of players like me
I am way better at BnG than you, this is my ONLY secret weapon
I am just a genius at BnG
I think you all jealous
I'm not feeling stupid because I'm not twisting anything. :)
Tom:
The thing is, if you leave the broken scheme in the classic league then people are forced to play it if their opponent picks it. If I could avoid it completely I couldn't care less and just let people enjoy their pile of shit scheme. And no, simply not playing against people who pick Hysteria is not gonna fix it either, it's time consuming enough to find games sometimes, then it would be even more so.
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Tom:
The thing is, if you leave the broken scheme in the classic league then people are forced to play it if their opponent picks it. If I could avoid it completely I couldn't care less and just let people enjoy their pile of shit scheme. And no, simply not playing against people who pick Hysteria is not gonna fix it either, it's time consuming enough to find games sometimes, then it would be even more so.
So again, it falls back to picks. This is why i believe both picks should be chosen before the first game starts. If you can't agree on picks before the game starts, find another opponent. If you don't want to play hysteria, don't play it.
And if you agree before the first game starts, and then avoid the pick it justifies a fake report. If you started first pick without knowing the second pick its kinda your own fault. But if you ask for both picks before the first game starts.. simply don't play an opponent that wants to pick a scheme you don't want to play. I don't see that as avoiding. Its lame, but its legal in my opinion. Theres plenty of other players to play and schemes to be played. With this system, inter can be introduced into the league without any problems too.
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Did you miss the last part of my post?
Just ignoring the problem is not gonna help. Hysteria needs to either be reworked (I wouldn't know how, the concept involves infinite teleports so it's going to be the same flaws no matter what you tweak) or put into free league again.
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Did you miss the last part of my post?
Just ignoring the problem is not gonna help. Hysteria needs to either be reworked (I wouldn't know how, the concept involves infinite teleports so it's going to be the same flaws no matter what you tweak) or put into free league again.
I missed the last bit of you post ::)
How is it not a problem to ignore it? You don't have to play the scheme, those that do can enjoy it. Why does it bother you if the scheme is shit if your not playing it?
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I agree with all of this.
I haven't read all the thread. But if people want to take an hour playing darksiding hysteria, let them enjoy that. If you'r stuck in a game where someone is darksiding, force sudden death.
If people are having hour long hysteria's, where is the harm in allowing inter bo1, or agreeing to bo2,bo3 (if people are happy playing for that amount of time then where is the harm in that?) Maybe make bo1 standard.. although there is luck in placements, but then luck makes worms fun, what makes a great player is still being able to win when luck has gone against him... Instead of crying about it cr8 rape, bad weapons in t17 or poor winds in bng, just get on, face the music and enjoy worms for what it is.
Shopper is great, comparing it to wxw is like comparing t17 and elite as random00 and others have said.
"If its not broke, don't fix it" - We are giving players the chance of playing schemes they enjoy in a league environment, it doesn't matter if some are tactically crap, or time consuming or less popular, the great thing is having the choice to be able to take part in competitive games across the schemes you enjoy. We're playing TuS to have fun, and because we enjoy competition. Nothing needs to be removed from classic league. Maybe consider adding inter. If you wanna play big RR, ask your opponent and if both players agree, why not?
I think what needs to be fixed is TUS t17 scheme, it needs to be more BOOM BOOM in my opinion with a larger amount of sudden death weapons. HHC's and FB's t17 schemes are far better. The majoirty of people argue about the 7 vs unlimited griders, but you can still play FB and HHC's scheme with 7 grides, I think the crates in tus t17 are the biggest problem. But thats only 1 out of 7 schemes that work well.
People talk about shopper being pointless, try beating Savage in a shopper and you'll see there are experts in that scheme. Again, the tus scheme in this could be editted if players want to. Try playing with my scheme with added miniguns and axe's to not create such a bais towards flame thrower.
Then there is the bng debate, people notch, some don't. Learn to darkside, and be comfortable knowing what the darkside rules are. Watch this clanner where barman and free are doing 4sec nades notched nades well. Through legal darksiding with nice bank shots CKC had a come back spell and i enjoyed this match regardless of what people say about notching. https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-116438/
At the end of the day feel happy theres a classic league that allows the majority of fun, tactical, and competitive games to be played that keep both ropers and defaulters happy.
I completely agree with Chicken
anyway my hysteria games usually do not last more than 15-20 minutes, I like this scheme because you need skills and mostly tactics, also luck does not affect the game because there aren't any crates and it's a fast scheme (the fastest after TTRR)
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How is it not a problem to ignore it? You don't have to play the scheme, those that do can enjoy it. Why does it bother you if the scheme is shit if your not playing it?
TUS anyone?
I will TUS
What's your pick?
Hysteria
TUS anyone?
::)
It's got flaws, very obvious ones, but people just keep coming here and ignoring that fact completely.
Let's just leave it like it is, maybe add Boomrace and Burning Girders to classic league.. Why not, you can just ignore it. ANARCHY!
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Its only fast if one of both opponents take a bit of risk to get hit. Both player can just get amazing hides and never hit and game will last 1 hour. I never played a 1 hour hyst too, because i'm bored and i get a noob hide so game is over quickly. Im not interested in playing 30 mins throwing zook/molotov.
Without this part of hyst, i really enjoy the game, but this is just so lame i hate it.
It would be so better if you could throw sd after 3-5 secs and not 10.
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I find it disrespectful that people tell other people to avoid hysteria if they don't like it knowing there's an avoiding rule in circulation.
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Its only fast if one of both opponents take a bit of risk to get hit. Both player can just get amazing hides and never hit and game will last 1 hour.
The same applies to all schemes, maybe not to the extent of an hour, but takes much longer/faster depending on players.
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How is it not a problem to ignore it? You don't have to play the scheme, those that do can enjoy it. Why does it bother you if the scheme is shit if your not playing it?
TUS anyone?
I will TUS
What's your pick?
Hysteria
TUS anyone?
::)
It's got flaws, very obvious ones, but people just keep coming here and ignoring that fact completely.
Let's just leave it like it is, maybe add Boomrace and Burning Girders to classic league.. Why not, you can just ignore it. ANARCHY!
Your exaggerating though, free league schemes never have enough popularity to become classic league schemes. Alot of people will play hysteria without any problems? How else is it having alot of picks in the league?
I find it disrespectful that people tell other people to avoid hysteria if they don't like it knowing there's an avoiding rule in circulation.
These avoiding rules are new and i'm not fully up to speed with them. (pretty poor moderating on my behalf but the amount of time i get to visit tus forums isn't too high and i don't read every thread... look how long this one has become) but regardless..
If i go
"TUS anyone expect RR?"
isn't that within the new rules?
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Your exaggerating though, free league schemes never have enough popularity to become classic league schemes. Alot of people will play hysteria without any problems? How else is it having alot of picks in the league?
I'll quote myself on this one.
Back when I was a noob I picked T17 all the time because it was the only scheme where I had decent winning odds due to crate luck. Nowadays it's Hysteria where there's not even crates. I'll let you guys do the conclusion to this statement.
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If you fancy your chances more in Hysteria, with the fact how good you are at BnG, that doesn't really surprise me tbh, but I don't see it from your perspective so...
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Instead of crying about it cr8 rape, bad weapons in t17 or poor winds in bng, just get on, face the music and enjoy worms for what it is.
Worms is a very customizable game, and with 4.0, it will be almost completely customizable. That is what worms is. The schemes that haven't been touched for years because of tradition is not what worms is. Keeping zook first turn rule in roper, a rule that originated from w2 because the placements were random and there needed to be a rule in place that prevented unlucky first turn fall damage, is not what worms is. We have manual placings now, we don't need this rule at all. As I've said before, this rule can be an unlucky disadvantage due to the wind you are forced to use. My point is we have the ability to improve schemes due to WAs variety of options and tweaks. That is what worms is. WA gives us replays. You would think we'd be optimistic about them to help settle disputes and outcomes of the game. Nope, not this community. We're too stubborn to check replays to see what team was actually faster in a RACING game. Now we must settle for a flawed system because once again, opinions and subjectively override fact and objectivity.
Hysteria with 3 seconds, limited teleports, and a handful of added weapons, like aerial but without all the extra bullshit that comes with it, would mend much of the flaws in the scheme.
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Hysteria with 3 seconds, limited teleports, and a handful of added weapons, like aerial but without all the extra bullshit that comes with it, would mend much of the flaws in the scheme.
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Hysteria with 3 seconds, limited teleports, and a handful of added weapons, like aerial but without all the extra bullshit that comes with it, would mend much of the flaws in the scheme.
I just flatout disagree with that. It'd playout as a completely different game, with different gameplay.
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If you fancy your chances more in Hysteria, with the fact how good you are at BnG, that doesn't really surprise me tbh, but I don't see it from your perspective so...
Dude, do you even understand his point?
He's saying newbies pick hysteria vs better players because it's the scheme with the biggest gamble outcome.
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Hysteria with 3 seconds, limited teleports, and a handful of added weapons, like aerial but without all the extra bullshit that comes with it, would mend much of the flaws in the scheme.
I just flatout disagree with that. It'd playout as a completely different game, with different gameplay.
Because the broken mechanics of the scheme would be eliminated. Agreed
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I just flatout disagree with that. It'd playout as a completely different game, with different gameplay.
Great flaws require great changes.
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Because the broken mechanics of the scheme would be eliminated. Agreed
That's just an opinion shared by some, just the same as my opinion which is shared by some too, I wonder if the whole world was entitled their opinion?
Maybe more would agree with me, maybe more would agree with you.
But put it this way, I think 5s SD is the only change needed, maybe 6s, but if they change Hysteria, in any way that you mentioned, i'd personally never play it in a League again, cuz I would feel like you guys completely f@#!ed it up, I don't know how many feel the same way.
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I think 5s SD and limited teleport (like 20?) could work.
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I think 5s SD and limited teleport (like 20?) could work.
How do we do 20 teleport, I thought max was 9 or 10?
20-25 teleports actually sounds pretty nice... More for 2v2, like 30-40.
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It's perfectly fine to have an opinion and post it here Komo but you've done that like 10 times in this thread already, your opinion is not gonna change that's also fine but you're outright ignoring facts which makes it kinda awkward to read your self-centered posts all the time.
Limiting teleports, sounds interesting but I'm not sure about that.. Gotta test it and see how it goes once you run out of teles I guess. :)
You can put any number of teleports from 0 to 255 (I think) with any external scheme editor Komo.
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We've already had this debate before. Hysteria doesn't meet the criteria for a competitive game (one that involves risks and rewards). There's a lack of ways to gain an advantage in this scheme - if you kill a lot, die a lot, whatever, the scales never tip in the favor of someone and that is terrible for a competitive scheme. If you want to argue that you should just take good top hides, I will argue that league schemes need to be as diverse as possible, and we already have bng to fill the role of top hide hysteria
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The 3s turn scheme thingy is not about changing hysteria, its about replacing it with something new yet similar. And i can bet my limbs + kidney as a bonus that it will play well, of course when scheme was designed well.
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It's perfectly fine to have an opinion and post it here Komo but you've done that like 10 times in this thread already, your opinion is not gonna change that's also fine but you're outright ignoring facts which makes it kinda awkward to read your self-centered posts all the time.
You and Shy, and the rest of you, are doing the exact same thing.
And I ain't ignoring anything, you think I am, I just don't see it the way you guys do, and I don't believe they are flaws.
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it's not an opinion when you legitimately use the scientific method to come to a conclusion about something
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it's not an opinion when you legitimately use the scientific method to come to a conclusion about something
There is NOTHING any of you have said that scientifically defines anything to do with Hysteria, as a flaw.
I haven't heard a single arguement that actually makes me believe there are any flaws in Hysteria, maybe it's bothersome to people who don't have the skill, but IF you are good enough, getting a huge lead at the start isn't a flaw.
For me, it speeds things up, that isn't a flaw for me...
I am sure many battles and wars throughout history, have been won in similar ways.
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I am sure many battles and wars throughout history, have been won in similar ways.
Im more sure those battles werent 1s turn based.
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I am sure many battles and wars throughout history, have been won in similar ways.
Im more sure those battles werent 1s turn based.
What's that got to do with the price of cheese?!
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Dunno about price, but cheese stinks, just like league hysteria.
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Ok lol, well i'll tell you what.
I'll give you guys a couple hours, to make up as big a list as you can imagine, about all your "flaws" in Hysteria.
And I will reply with a counter for every single one, then I won't post again.
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Like I said, we've had this debate before in another thread, and all you did was argue that hysteria was competitive based off your definition of competitive, and your definition of competitive had nothing to do with the discussion at hand
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and your definition of competitive had nothing to do with the discussion at hand
It did actually, you just didn't see it.
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I haven't heard a single arguement that actually makes me believe there are any flaws in Hysteria, maybe it's bothersome to people who don't have the skill, but IF you are good enough, getting a huge lead at the start isn't a flaw.
Here is a situation: turn one of hysteria, the worms are spread out fairly well, with no 2 worms from the same team being very close to each other. Player 1 plops an enemy worm near the water. Player 2 uses his next 3 turns to pile your appropriate worms and then the next 3 turns to attack your worms. He got taken out for 80 dmg, but he can so easily put back 120+ damage to you ONLY because he got killed in the beginning. Player 2 should not be given that award when Player 1 killed his worm, which is what you're supposed to do in hysteria. That situation does not reward the proper player, hence it does not match a criteria for being competitive (having risks and rewards). This is a simplified version of what happens in the majority of hysteria games. When the majority of hysteria games abuses the flawed risks and rewards system of hysteria, that's a problem for a scheme that's supposed to be in the competitive league.
Here is another situation: Same layout as the last one, except Player 1 intentionally plops his first worm with a teleport. Now even if Player 2 starts piling his worms together to try to avoid rotation rape, Player 1 still gets the better reward for intentionally killing himself. Even if you piled properly to insure you could cover all your worms, it is still worth it for Player 1 to come pile and rotate your worms. Player 1s worm may get hit once during this process, but it is still worth it to go around the horn, cos if you hit his worm, you hit yours, too, so the damage taken from turn 1 to turn 6 for both teams would be something like 120-130 HP for Player 1 and 160-180 HP for Player 2. Keep in mind you can keep this cycle going as long as you make sure you have less worms than your opponent.
Two valid examples that are very very very common in hysteria that show getting a lead in hysteria can be both not advantageous and also disadvantageous. If you follow this mindset, then early game and mid game are completely pointless, cos the scales never tip in favor of someone. Once it gets to 1v1, it becomes a very stale game of darkside and hope for a lucky shot, which is a weak concept for a scheme that is supposed to be "competitive".
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Great post Shy. That's exactly what's wrong with the scheme.
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Nice post shy :)
The only problem is your point of view though. You painted a good picture of Hysteria's brilliance but you tagged it as a flaw.
Hysteria is an out-of-the-box scheme. You plop your own worm to gain advantage. How great is that? In ALL of the other schemes that's bad, but in Hysteria it can be good.
In your first example, when player A plops one worm of players B, he is actually risking telepile. Why do you think player A must be rewarded for plopping? He must be punished for that stupid move. Also if at the start of the game player B have worms with plopping potential, why do you wanna reward player A for having an easy plop?
Why is it so hard to understand an out-of-the-box scheme? Why so many people are obsessed with "nice shot" must be rewarded? Hysteria wants to reward "nice management" not nice shots. We have a scheme that a nice shot can be a very bad move. Why is it so hard to accept? Play BnG and enjoy nice shots. Play Elite and enjoy nice shot. Play Team17 and enjoy nice shots. We have a total different scheme where managing number of worms to the end counts. Where you gotta think twice is it worth killing an opponent worm or not?
It is Hysteria's brilliance, not a flaw.
The flaw I see is that many times the best response to suicide 80hp worm, is to do it yourself. In some games players plop 3 worms at the start of the game and start cat and mouse at the beginning of the game. These games are not a lot in number though.
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Play BnG and enjoy nice shots. Play Elite and enjoy nice shot. Play Team17 and enjoy nice shots.
Play hysteria and no matter how terrible you are, finish your opponent with last shot of the game.
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Even if you have nice management, even if you have nice shots or not, even if you plop yourself or not, there's still little to no advantage to gain. Turn times of 1 second make this flaw possible because you are so limited to countering anything. Rotation risk in elite is acceptable because you have an appropriate amount of time to try to counter. In hysteria, the 1 second turn is abused.
I understand your point about me labeling a nice shot as a flaw, but I'm actually saying much more than that. I'm saying the fact that you can do very little to actually gain an advantage in hysteria, unless you start with perfect placements, perfect land formations for perfect situational shots, is the flaw of the scheme. I wouldn't call an artillery, combat-based scheme brilliant when the large majority of the games turn into a 1v1 rat race because early and mid game are completely negligible
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Nice post shy, detailing the common Hysteria scenarios, and MonkeyIsland beat me to it, posting why you need to approach Hysteria different from all other schemes.
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@lacoste,
Play hysteria and no matter how terrible you are, finish your opponent with last shot of the game.
If you are so terrible how did you manage to make your opponent down to one weak worm that a last shot finishes him?
Did you teleraped your opponent? How did your opponent allow you to do it?
Let's say your statement is true, then good hysteria players must have a low winning ratio right? Because no matter how great they play, a terrible noob can finish them with one lucky last shot?
@ShyGuy,
The famous argument of hysteria is "nice shots" vs "telepile". People wonder why when they do a nice "skilled" shot, their opponent reply with "unskilled" telepile. The point is, as you said, there's so little you can do with one second. You can't think much about your aim or power, the whole turn is hysteric. I want to point out that our so called "nice shots" in hysteria are very close to "lucky shots" and in many many cases, if you ask the player to repeat that shot, he can't. IMO we have overrated nice shots in Hysteria and bashed telepiling.
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Lacoste has a point though.
When you force SD, most of the times it comes down to who hits the last plop shot which is almost a straight vertical shot at that point.
There are flaws that make Hysteria look like a gamble but I do totally understand that community needs this scheme. If you don't wanna gamble with SD, it can turn into a lamefest. Nevertheless, it could be tweaked into a competitive scheme, it just aint one just yet.
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Instead of talking, why not create the scheme you desire?
I'm fairly sure that if you manage to make it 'better' (as subjective as it may be) and host some tourneys/cups in it it will get approved sooner or later.
It's easy to blah-blah-blah, but it's hard to overcome laziness ;D
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As far as I am concerned, ShyGuy is wrong and MI is right, I don't need to step in yet until I see something worthy enough.
Gj MI.
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I like the out-of-the-box character which the scheme has but how is it not a flaw that in Hysteria, whatever you do until lategame, can be countered with a very basic and very easy to pull off move making 90% of the games end in 1vs1 situations where most of the times one team has a much better position than the other, forcing the other to teleport to the side and eventually wait for SD just so they have a chance at winning (only in case their opponent misses that one guaranteed shot from a good position the turn after you teleport up to mostly open space).
Is it really so hard to understand that there are no other viable options to this than teleport-after-teleport-until-someone's-bored or zook-your-ass-off-until-nothing's-left-of-the-map?
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@MI: Its not that simple. I for example (not being top hysteria player) had many turns that in any other scheme would be diseaster, but in case of hysteria i simply didnt give a f@#! coz "only" the very late game matters and that part of the game in hysteria is a joke. Tell me, whats the point of competition where you can stay relaxed until you have 1 worm left. For me league scheme is something where you have to pay for your mistakes and starting at 00:00:00 until the end of the round give your best and be awarded. This scheme, considering league play, is SILLY, nothing more.
@HHC: Ill happily think about something but it needs more people involved and lots of testing.
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As far as I am concerned, ShyGuy is wrong and MI is right
This is why your posts are never taken seriously, lmao. You have no idea how to argue.
@ShyGuy,
The famous argument of hysteria is "nice shots" vs "telepile". People wonder why when they do a nice "skilled" shot, their opponent reply with "unskilled" telepile. The point is, as you said, there's so little you can do with one second. You can't think much about your aim or power, the whole turn is hysteric. I want to point out that our so called "nice shots" in hysteria are very close to "lucky shots" and in many many cases, if you ask the player to repeat that shot, he can't. IMO we have overrated nice shots in Hysteria and bashed telepiling.
I agree and I've said this before in my first big post of this thread that hysteria is a luckyshotgg scheme... so why exactly is it league worthy?
I'm not quite sure what you're saying here... are you validating hysteria as a worthy league scheme because of its lucky-shot uniqueness?
Like I said, 3 second turns would be a better portrayal of hysteria because you aren't forced to settle with walking .7 seconds and then shooting a random ass grenade. You have 3 seconds, still a short time, to do a lot more things, which gets finger-demanding crazy at times
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As far as I am concerned, ShyGuy is wrong and MI is right, I don't need to step in yet until I see something worthy enough.
Gj MI.
What's your stake on my example when one forces SD and it becomes a gamble which one hits the one and only critical shot.
You really can win Hysteria with just 1 shot or even no shots at all.
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@MI: Its not that simple. I for example (not being top hysteria player) had many turns that in any other scheme would be diseaster, but in case of hysteria i simply didnt give a f@#! coz "only" the very late game matters and that part of the game in hysteria is a joke. Tell me, whats the point of competition where you can stay relaxed until you have 1 worm left. For me league scheme is something where you have to pay for your mistakes and starting at 00:00:00 until the end of the round give your best and be awarded. This scheme, considering league play, is SILLY, nothing more.
This is so true. There have been a handful of times when I clanned with avi and he didn't have time to play hysteria, but I told him to plop both his worms at the start, and not once did him doing that hurt me. All the games where we did that were close and I even won some of them. That just shows how flawed the game is. Even when Avi plopped both of his worms the first 2 turns and left, the games came down to 1v1 shots
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most schemes come down to 1v1 at the end. it's about how to get there that's the fun of competing and playing.
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hysteria is the only scheme where how you get there is absolutely irrelevant. If you play like gold it becomes 1v1, if you play like trash it becomes 1v1... You can't do that in other schemes, and I don't see that as being some special perk to hysteria... It's quite silly. why not just reduce the amount of worms to 1 each team and save the time
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most schemes come down to 1v1 at the end. it's about how to get there that's the fun of competing and playing.
Right. And the way hysteria comes down to 1v1 is neither fun nor particularly "competitive".
I don't need to step in yet until I see something worthy enough.
Rofl, don't bother, please.
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Lets change topic: does god really exist or not?
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Lets change topic: does god really exist or not?
impossible to determine - agnosticism all the way ;)
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Then im out of here :K
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As far as I'm concerned, Bible is right and Dawkins is wrong. I don't need to step in yet until I see someone explaining evolution and scientific way of proving things.
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As far as I'm concerned, Bible is right and Dawkins is wrong. I don't need to step in yet until I see someone explaining evolution and scientific way of proving things.
lawl
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As far as I'm concerned, Bible is right and Dawkins is wrong. I don't need to step in yet until I see someone explaining evolution and scientific way of proving things.
Let's not go off-topic please. :)
I believe in the "one" who created us all. Call it energy or whatever.
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Good that someone like Shyguy is giving all the point why hysteria isn't good for league.
I was trying to tell this, but my english is too poor ;P
Thx shy.
This sentence is really important and true : If you play like gold it becomes 1v1, if you play like trash it becomes 1v1...
Also this one
Is it really so hard to understand that there are no other viable options to this than teleport-after-teleport-until-someone's-bored or zook-your-ass-off-until-nothing's-left-of-the-map?
Honestly reducing the SD time to 3-5 could be a good option I think. At least if you played better at start and mid game you can throw SD quickly and have an advantage.
And God doesnt exist.
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Lol Rok, Touche.
The only thing is, YOU GUYS don't like Hysteria.
It IS a competitive scheme.
YOU don't like it. But MOST of WA do.
f@#!ing deal with it, I have to put up with shitty Elite, and lucky as f@#! T17, and noob as hell Shopper, and crates of death roper ffs.
You guys are just selfish.
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Lol Rok, Touche.
The only thing is, YOU GUYS don't like Hysteria.
It IS a competitive scheme.
YOU don't like it. But MOST of WA do.
f@#!ing deal with it, I have to put up with shitty Elite, and lucky as f@#! T17, and noob as hell Shopper, and crates of death roper ffs.
You guys are just selfish.
You probably ain't the sharpest tool in the shed.
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I actually like to play Hysteria with my clanmates, we probably played a hundred or more Hysterias together just goofing around etc. It's just not suited to be a league scheme because if you play to win, it's a mess.
Now shush Komo, get outta here, I'm yet to see you counter one of the brought up arguments. Oh wait, MI was right to begin with. Nevermind. :D
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MI has said enough to disprove Shy's take on Hysteria, at least in my opinion, and that's all it is, an opinion.
Just because a small portion of the whole that plays TuS doesn't like Hysteria, doesn't give you the right to change it.
You have no proof it isn't a competitive scheme, because it IS a competitive scheme.
Every scheme, there are things people don't like, I see flaws in other schemes, that other people don't feel are flaws, fair enough, I don't ask to change it.
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The only thing is, YOU GUYS don't like Hysteria.
It IS a competitive scheme.
YOU don't like it. But MOST of WA do.
Whether or not we like the scheme does not validate or invalidate our arguments... This is a logical fallacy. I happen to like hysteria (I join random hysterias all the time when I'm bored at 2 a.m.), just like I happen to like a lot of the free league schemes, but some of us are capable of being objective and recognizes which schemes belong where. If every single person in WA liked comet dodging, it should become a competitive league scheme by your definition, which is incredibly foolish and that's why we don't follow your definition of competition. Why can't you understand that just because most people like the scheme (including myself) doesn't mean it fits the criteria to become a worthy league scheme. It's like you're incapable of being objective and you keep proving that you don't know how to have an intelligent debate... Stop making baseless assumptions like YOU GUYS DON'T LIKE HYSTERIA... It turns out darkz and I both do, so stop saying shit out of your ass... I don't understand how you can go from making valid, objective points about precise time in ttrr to shouting blanket statements like "you guys are just selfish" in this thread... are you trolling? that's a serious question
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Comet Dodging is NOTHING like Hysteria what a complete bullshit example.
My skill/tactics can beat any skill/tactics, same with Random, and Casso. (Edit, and others)
^^ HOW YOU GET THERE - DOESN'T MATTER.
So it's valid, period.
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Comet Dodging is NOTHING like Hysteria what a complete bullshit example.
It's only a complete bullshit example to you because you apparently don't even understand yourself. In the other hysteria thread, all you did was say hysteria was competitive because it's so popular, everyone plays it, blah blah blah... Therefore, if any scheme was popular, it considered competitive and should be added into the competitive league, even if the scheme happens to be comet dodging. I'm simply using your reasoning against you in hopes that you're realize how foolish it is
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Thanks for opening my eyes Komo, now I'm totally convinced after reading how awesome you are - again..
Shy it's useless, he's just that dense it seems. I've kinda given up hope on him understanding our points.
SOOOOOOO! Let's work on a new, more league-suited Hysteria scheme shall we? :P
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Comet Dodging is NOTHING like Hysteria what a complete bullshit example.
My skill/tactics can beat any skill/tactics, same with Random, and Casso. (Edit, and others)
^^ HOW YOU GET THERE - DOESN'T MATTER.
So it's valid, period.
Why you have to act like a stupid ignorant idiot so often when everyone else is ADDING value to the thread.
I asked what you have to say when the opponent forces SD and waits until water has risen enough so it becomes a gamble who hits the game winning shot. You think your skill/tactics has much to do at this point?
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God damn you guys are thick lol. (Since you are trying to insult me.)
What value are you trying to add? You are trying to take away value, not add it.
If you wanna ruin Hysteria, and eventually TUS with all these stupid ideas and changes every 2-3 f@#!ing days, go ahead.
If you change Hysteria, I won't play anymore, doesn't matter if anyone else cares, i'll just have had enough of this stupidness on this website.
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God damn you guys are thick lol.
What value are you trying to add? You are trying to take away value, not add it.
Says troll of the year.
How we are taking AWAY value again? Care to explain so we could better understand your superior way of thinking and communicating.
You're not even answering to our questions, at least not mine. Got nothing to say?
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So I decided to watch 2 random hysteria replays that komo played to see these awesome tactics. You hide on top and play bng, it's no wonder why you defend this scheme so much. When you're getting thrashed, you teleport rotation rape (abusing the scheme). Both games came down to 1v1 luckyshot death match since both players were in asinine hides. In one game, after it became 1 worm vs 1 worm, it took about 10 minutes before the luckyshotgg came in. Both games played out exactly like described in this thread - irrelevant early and mid game and then luckyshotgg 1v1. I don't see these supreme tactics you talk about... you played exactly like how anyone else plays, except since you are obviously the king at bng, you get the luckyshotgg's more often. You were even baffled at how someone used the torch trick to aim up faster. You don't know anything we don't about this scheme, it's clear... I dare anyone to watch his replays... there's nothing secret that he's been doing that we've all been missing... It's obvious you see this game as a bng variant, just look at how you play in those replays! Sometimes you didn't do obvious retreats after you threw a nade, it's so easy to tell you only defend this scheme because it is your second bng baby scheme
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Shy, I do what I need to, nothing more, most of my opponents are easy, BnG defeats them fast.
I know what I am doing lol, you obviously don't.
Oh, and, well done for pointing out the obvious, I use my strengths lol, and that Hysteria involves alot of BnG, well done smart guy #1.
ShyGuy, you have watched a few games, I imagine from what you said, were very easy games for me because my opponents didn't make me do much.
If you were to watch EVERY single one of my Hysteria games i'd ever played, and saw it from my point of view, had my imagination and sparks of ideas and tactics, you would understand, there ARE little things I do, and plan in advance in some games, that most people don't even realise, and I ain't gonna give away my secrets unless you notice them for yourself, but if you aren't willing to watch every single one of my games, and if you don't pick up on the things I do(when they need to be done, or I deem neccessary), or go figure out for yourself, then don't make such claims, and then you will just have to accept you will never know, and will keep your opinions as they are.
The only thing I can think of in terms of the hiding at sides and the "cat n mouse chase" with both worms like 10-20hp waiting on the "1 shot" is kinda like playing poker, you can bluff in Hysteria, did you realise that?
I dare you to say Poker isn't competitive.
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Shy, I do what I need to, nothing more, most of my opponents are easy, BnG defeats them fast.
I know what I am doing lol, you obviously don't.
Oh, and, well done for pointing out the obvious, I use my strengths lol, and that Hysteria involves alot of BnG, well done smart guy #1.
Bottom line is hysteria almost always comes down to 1v1 bng, and we already have a scheme for that.
I never accused you of not knowing what you're doing. You simply know what everyone else knows about hysteria tactics, and it shows in your replays. I've seen you get rotation raped just like everyone else does, I didn't see any special tactics from you that prevented that.
ShyGuy, you have watched a few games, I imagine from what you said, were very easy games for me because my opponents didn't make me do much.
You actually lost one of them, someone got the luckyshotgg on you. after about 6 minutes
The only thing I can think of in terms of the hiding at sides and the "cat n mouse chase" with both worms like 10-20hp waiting on the "1 shot" is kinda like playing poker, you can bluff in Hysteria, did you realise that?
I dare you to say Poker isn't competitive.
Here you go again trying to make a point with no backbone. You are seriously trying to link a small, debatable similarity between hysteria and poker, and say hysteria is competitive because poker is? zzzzz come on man, that's such poor logic. What is a bluff in hysteria? I'm guessing it is hiding out in the open to draw your opponent out. Or is it just stupidity hiding out in the open with 10-20 hp left? Can't wait to hear your answer
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I've edited my last post, i'm off to sleep now.
End-game Hysteria has different outcomes than just 1v1 BnG, some players like to get in close and try all sorts.
Being rotate raped isn't something I don't realise is happening, or don't plan for either.
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Darkz what is the problem in Komo saying he pwns at BnG? He really does lol.
And my post was not nonsense, you and others just don't like the scheme, there's nothing wrong with it, you only must be smart to play it.
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I edited my post, too, Komo
Darkz what is the problem in Komo saying he pwns at BnG? He really does lol.
And my post was not nonsense, you and others just don't like the scheme, there's nothing wrong with it, you only must be smart to play it.
Why was your post not nonsense? Why do you think we just don't like the scheme, even after we shot down that statement? Why is there nothing wrong with it? Why you only must be smart to play it? Why do you keep saying things without reason?
If people are just going to blindly call us selfish and accuse us of not liking the scheme, I'm going to start getting down on their intellectual level and use the same type of argument.
You guys just want to keep hysteria as it is because you like it. You're all selfish. Isn't this just a great, worthwhile argument to read?
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He does own at BnG Sniper but what does that have to do with this topic? That's right Sherlock, nothing.
Provide us with some insight on how to play smart Hysteria then. I reckon you've read the thread? How do you win your Hysterias? Is it the luckshotgg method? Or do you prefer the teleport until your opponent is bored way?
Do you realize that many games end because one side decides to just do or die because they can't be arsed to teleport around the map for another 30 minutes?
Take two players who are really good at Hysteria - for example Random and Gabriel. They play 10 Hysterias, trying to win at all cost and never take risks (which includes not forcing SD). How long do you think they're going to just teleport around the map in those 10 Hysterias?
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Shy, I do what I need to, nothing more, most of my opponents are easy, BnG defeats them fast.
I know what I am doing lol, you obviously don't.
Oh, and, well done for pointing out the obvious, I use my strengths lol, and that Hysteria involves alot of BnG, well done smart guy #1.
ShyGuy, you have watched a few games, I imagine from what you said, were very easy games for me because my opponents didn't make me do much.
If you were to watch EVERY single one of my Hysteria games i'd ever played, and saw it from my point of view, had my imagination and sparks of ideas and tactics, you would understand, there ARE little things I do, and plan in advance in some games, that most people don't even realise, and I ain't gonna give away my secrets unless you notice them for yourself, but if you aren't willing to watch every single one of my games, and if you don't pick up on the things I do(when they need to be done, or I deem neccessary), or go figure out for yourself, then don't make such claims, and then you will just have to accept you will never know, and will keep your opinions as they are.
The only thing I can think of in terms of the hiding at sides and the "cat n mouse chase" with both worms like 10-20hp waiting on the "1 shot" is kinda like playing poker, you can bluff in Hysteria, did you realise that?
I dare you to say Poker isn't competitive.
Aaand you still don't answer my question.
It's one my biggest suggestions WHY hysteria can't be classed as competitive scheme, yet you don't say any counter-argument.
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He does own at BnG Sniper but what does that have to do with this topic? That's right Sherlock, nothing.
Provide us with some insight on how to play smart Hysteria then. I reckon you've read the thread? How do you win your Hysterias? Is it the luckshotgg method? Or do you prefer the teleport until your opponent is bored way?
Do you realize that many games end because one side decides to just do or die because they can't be arsed to teleport around the map for another 30 minutes?
Take two players who are really good at Hysteria - for example Random and Gabriel. They play 10 Hysterias, trying to win at all cost and never take risks (which includes not forcing SD). How long do you think they're going to just teleport around the map in those 10 Hysterias?
Watch my replays and take your own conclusions, those ways you wrote is Hysteria style, everything for the win..
(https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/ranks/members/Kaleu-Hysteria-all-3/)
btw I was 3rd Hyst overall 1 week ago, I need take my place again since I'm not playing TUS classic, very rarely I play some TUS against some noob.
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I rest my case, you guys make a great couple, posting stuff without an explanation or facts to back shit up.
You're f@#!ing fanboys and don't wanna see the truth because for some strange reason you still enjoy competitive Hysteria even though it's really not worlds apart from Comet Dodging, when SD kicks in anyway.
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He does own at BnG Sniper but what does that have to do with this topic? That's right Sherlock, nothing.
Provide us with some insight on how to play smart Hysteria then. I reckon you've read the thread? How do you win your Hysterias? Is it the luckshotgg method? Or do you prefer the teleport until your opponent is bored way?
Do you realize that many games end because one side decides to just do or die because they can't be arsed to teleport around the map for another 30 minutes?
Take two players who are really good at Hysteria - for example Random and Gabriel. They play 10 Hysterias, trying to win at all cost and never take risks (which includes not forcing SD). How long do you think they're going to just teleport around the map in those 10 Hysterias?
Watch my replays and take your own conclusions, those ways you wrote is Hysteria style, everything for the win..
(https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/ranks/members/Kaleu-Hysteria-all-3/)
btw I was 3rd Hyst overall 1 week ago, I need take my place again since I'm not playing TUS classic, very rarely I play some TUS against some noob.
Well since your such a Hysteria pro, what you have to say about this example and if it has much tactics involved. I force SD, wait for optimal spot to tele when water is rising, and then we can gamble who hits the last shot.
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I have nothing to say, the scheme is good as it is, learn first then after blame.
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its normal people like differents things, especially in a league like with 8 more or less different schemes.
if you want to proof hysteria is not competetive you need to show that the scheme can not produce league worthy stats. i cant see any indicator in the winning ratios for this.
all other points just show personal dislikes/styles from various players or are just poorly thought out.
best example: we already have a scheme for bng. with this argument you could also delete wxw/roper.
i also dont get why people talk about nice shots should be more rewarded. you can also do a hyper nice plop in elite/shopper/ or insane kill in roper and the reward will be the same as in hysteria >>>>> the opponent will pile your worms. its basic, get over it. many people dont use the oppurtunity for nice attacks on purpose because they dont want to have a disadvantage on the long term. but noone complains about it.hysteria is not bng thats why jetpack atatcks from close distance after a telepile are fine. sure its more skill to hit someone from distance, but you wont use a nade to finish a game in elite when u have airstrike or missile left. u have the jetpack only in hysteria, would be stupid not use it. same goes for 50 hp damage in elite with sg.both attacks dont need much skill in the most situations. they just happen because they are possible and useful.
about punishment/reward for a lead: the nature of worms: the less units you controll the more flexible you are with your attacks. but you also have less energy and may die soon.
about killing own worms:whats the problem? you also sacrifice your own units chess to create a trap.
about boring telerace: this only happens when both players are not comfortable with their current positions.this just means they have done something wrong in their midgame.
this scheme sometimes is no fun to watch and also no fun to play (especially when you fail the x shot to hit the opponent on the same spot). but on the other end, so many people complained about notching. now heres a scheme u can only aim by instinct.
as long as a scheme leads to meaningful stats and its popular, there is no reason to talk about a remove. even other schemes are more competetive, skillfull, have a higher learning curve. i guess the majority is happy for all these different schemes in the league. gonna end this boring post with a quote of the famous Surak: "Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations"
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nice thought out post peja. coversation felt one-sided a while there.
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Very smart post.
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Hehe, nice post Peja
but you wont use a nade to finish a game in elite when u have airstrike or missile left.
U know I would use a nade many times anyway (at least if I'm in a good mood and know I would hit that shot at least 2 of 3 times at first try)
In my opinion hysteria is one of the best schemes. It is fast fun and only boring if u play it with the wrong persons. Risk more and u wont have that long boring games. Many times the opponent failes and you can win in the next turn.
Or just play with people who dont like lame and boring games and who try style attacks when they lead...
Hysteria fits good into classic, if u r better at aiming and know the power you will win the most games, hysteria is skillful and has some tactics. Good people have more experience and do better things in all that different situations. And the best thing is, theres less luck than in many other schemes. It only sux too much if u have almost always the wrong wind or if u start with all worms down while ur opponent have all worms up.
In that case I suggest to just let the game end fast to not delay a too unfair game where u can only hide at side or darkside and wait many annoying turns and start hating this scheme.
Like I always say: Kill the lamer. They just create an so bad ambience and it is their fault if one of the best schemes gets a much worse reputation than it deserves!
The fun is the most important thing and if u have a game with many nice shots u'll like that game, too.
The best thing is to practise and improving skills. A skillful game with only little fails will be interesting, a lot of fun and nice to watch.
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@Free,
Your example is incomplete. You can't judge a game by focusing on a small portion of it. You gotta see the whole game.
It is like saying in Team17, I collect uzi, the next turn you collect nana. How unfair is that? It is the whole game that counts.
I asked what you have to say when the opponent forces SD and waits until water has risen enough so it becomes a gamble who hits the game winning shot. You think your skill/tactics has much to do at this point?
How the game managed to go in that direction?
In order to force SD, you gotta waste seconds, meaning you have to NOT attack and waste turns. This gives your opponent an opportunity to reduce your worms health as much as possible. So even if SD comes, it will be in favor of your opponent.
So again, how the game managed to go in that direction you described?
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What is a bluff in hysteria? I'm guessing it is hiding out in the open to draw your opponent out. Or is it just stupidity hiding out in the open with 10-20 hp left? Can't wait to hear your answer
Seriously, you can bluff in Hysteria, and other schemes, all it is, is making your opponent think 1 thing, while you do another, there are many ways to do this, it's natural, it can't be taught, I am good at it.
I rest my case, you guys make a great couple, posting stuff without an explanation or facts to back shit up.
Actually, there is way way WAY more then sufficient data of explanations from me alone, go read up everything i've ever said about Hysteria, if you don't put the effort in, then shut the f@#! up.
If you guys were naturally interested in Hysteria, i'd maybe share my tactics and try explaining how I think and feel about Hysteria, but theres no way I will with that attitude, you aren't interested anyway, all you are interested is changing TuS on a daily f@#!ing basis, cuz you don't like what is already on the menu.
i also dont get why people talk about nice shots should be more rewarded. you can also do a hyper nice plop in elite/shopper/ or insane kill in roper and the reward will be the same as in hysteria >>>>> the opponent will pile your worms. its basic, get over it. many people dont use the oppurtunity for nice attacks on purpose because they dont want to have a disadvantage on the long term. but noone complains about it.hysteria is not bng thats why jetpack atatcks from close distance after a telepile are fine. sure its more skill to hit someone from distance, but you wont use a nade to finish a game in elite when u have airstrike or missile left. u have the jetpack only in hysteria, would be stupid not use it. same goes for 50 hp damage in elite with sg.both attacks dont need much skill in the most situations. they just happen because they are possible and useful.
about punishment/reward for a lead: the nature of worms: the less units you controll the more flexible you are with your attacks. but you also have less energy and may die soon.
about killing own worms:whats the problem? you also sacrifice your own units chess to create a trap.
about boring telerace: this only happens when both players are not comfortable with their current positions.this just means they have done something wrong in their midgame.
I thought all of this was common sense, at least that's stuff I think about, never actually thought to say it, very well said Peja and i'm glad you backed it up :)
This really is my personal main reason why I disregard everthing you have said against Hysteria, regardless what happens, no matter what kind of situation I find myself in Hysteria, I ALWAYS have a plan that WILL work if I play good enough, and I hit the shots I need to hit, there is NO flaw that prevents me from winning unless I personally make a mistake, the fact that I have to keep focused and keep changing my plans, is one of the biggest thrills for me, making sure I execute as many ideas and plans as possible to assure my victory.
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Bottom line is hysteria almost always comes down to 1v1 bng, and we already have a scheme for that.
Why else do you think Komodo is so butt hurt at any changes recommended for it?
Just limit the teleports and be done with it. You can't justify constant darksiding in a game that's basically bng with more weapons and telepile. You can not. And the only reason you guys are defending it is because the current state of hysteria allows you guys to beat Random and Mablak at times.
About Komo, I think we are all fed up listening how good you think you are. Just because you're good at the scheme doesn't mean you hold the truth or else all football players would be great football managers and all you're accomplishing is seeing people grow the habit of skip reading your posts, or skipping them on a whole.
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Bullshit ropa, Hysteria is nothing like BnG, you use "BnG" style shooting, but the tactics, pressure etc are a completely different game, and ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a fool.
And if they choose to ignore what I say, they will never learn, it's their loss, they will continue to get beat by players like me, their loss, whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo.
I have no time to take pity on the fact you are not as good as me, that's a human weakness I am glad I don't share.
I use my statistics and my skill as proof, not to brag about anything, if you are too insecure and think anything else, fair enough, I don't care lol, I have the proof that you don't.
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ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a fool
if they choose to ignore what I say, they will never learn
it's their loss
they will continue to get beat by players like me
whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo
it's their loss
I have no time to take pity on the fact you are not as good as me
whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo
a human weakness I am glad I don't share.
ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a fool
you are too insecure
whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo
I have the proof that you don't
ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a fool
whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo
whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo
whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo
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I still don't see any bragging, all I see is truth and fact.
Why don't you come up with facts and truth, kinda like, what I have been doing, instead of pretending I said something else, or trying to ignore the fact I am right.
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I still don't see any bragging, all I see is truth and fact.
Why don't you come up with facts and truth, kinda like, what I have been doing, instead of pretending I said something else, or trying to ignore the fact I am right.
You're like Peter Crouch trying to argue with Jose Mourinho.
"aye mate you cannot speak about the football because you never was good at it aye."
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Thats entirely different lol, actually really funny that though.
Look, at the moment, I haven't even seen more than 20 people say Hysteria is lame, where as i've seen hundreds who think it's awesome.
You think it's flawed, I think it isn't. I am done.
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@Free,
Your example is incomplete. You can't judge a game by focusing on a small portion of it. You gotta see the whole game.
It is like saying in Team17, I collect uzi, the next turn you collect nana. How unfair is that? It is the whole game that counts.
I asked what you have to say when the opponent forces SD and waits until water has risen enough so it becomes a gamble who hits the game winning shot. You think your skill/tactics has much to do at this point?
How the game managed to go in that direction?
In order to force SD, you gotta waste seconds, meaning you have to NOT attack and waste turns. This gives your opponent an opportunity to reduce your worms health as much as possible. So even if SD comes, it will be in favor of your opponent.
So again, how the game managed to go in that direction you described?
I think replay examples is easier to communicate.
Let's say community agrees to 5s SD (you can abuse this with 10s also ofc). Depending on starting positions you can start forcing SD immediately. It really doesn't matter if your able to kill even 2 worms (maybe even 3) because water rise kills for you and it does become a gamble who hits the critical last shot. There's a really small portion of tactics involved with water rise but in all honesty, it almost always becomes an gamble. It's a really boring and lame way to Hysteria also and there's pretty much nothing you can do to counter-attack it effectively. You can win hysteria with just 1 shot or no shots at all, if opponent misses crucial shot when water is rising and you have spot to teleport. Water kills for you.
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And while they waste their time wasting time, you kill them so you have more worms at SD.
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And while they waste their time wasting time, you kill them so you have more worms at SD.
Do you even read what people write?
I just said water rise takes care of it. You just need to figure out the optimal time to teleport. It could even be handicap for the enemy if he has 4 worms to worry about in SD.
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You talk about the "last" crucial shot, just be good enough to hit "every" crucial shot.
Every player is responsible for their accuracy.
Next...
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After reading on and skimming over the crap i see what your saying now Darkz. Its a shame noobies pick this scheme because they think they have a chance of winning it, but shame to the pros to losing to noobs haha.
But seriously, shy's post was execellent and i can see why the scheme has issues. HHC sums everything up so well, if you have a suggestion for a scheme variation, make the tweaks and start using it, ask your opponent to agree and try to make that scheme popular. Thats how all other schemes evolved over the years, and like you said aswell shy, its what W:A has done well so far. Hysteria is a new league scheme, so its bound to have some changes along the way, all other league schemes are way different to their originals now.
What would happen if you had worm select like t17? Then piling wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful but with 1second turn time it would still require some skill to select worm and pull off your move..
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Its a shame noobies pick this scheme because they think they have a chance of winning it, but shame to the pros to losing to noobs haha.
Do you really think people choose Hysteria just because they think they have a chance of winning it? Anyone truly skilled in Hysteria would realise the better player will usually win, just like Roper.
Hysteria is fun, easy to play, but the top skill level is extremely hard to defeat.
If I was a new player, I would choose Hysteria because how easy it is to play, and I would enjoy losing more, rather than play TTRR, that would scare me...
It's like Othello, a minute to learn, a lifetime to master, no other scheme is this flexible and competitive at the same time.
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@its always 1vs1 at the end:
First of all this is just the case if your opponent doesnt make any mistakes. But when it's 1vs1 its also important to have a look at the HP of these 2 worms.
The early game doesnt matter at all most of the times, but the midgame is the time where you can gain an advantage for the endgame. I think in ~75% (thats just a random guess out of my memory) of the games I have an HP lead when it's down to 1vs1 in Hysteria. But imo, there are easy-to-execute tactics that can give you a gamble situation at the end. I never saw anyone actually doing it against me yet, but I think this is the main flaw of hysteria. It kinda leads to the situation that Free described, where its down to one nearly horizontal shot with zook at the end of sd.
Depending on the map and the bng skill of the player that uses this tactic you can win at least 1 out of 3 games against ANY player. I can't prove it, cause like I said, I've never seen anyone tyring to play like this, cause your winning chances are <50% like this, imo, because your opponent has to miss one important shot for you to win.
But all in all, I dont think that Hysteria is as flawed as for example Shyguy and darKz think it is. For most tactics there's a good counter tactic.
I'm still undecided if this scheme needs a change and if so, which changes would make the scheme better... :/
edit:
Do you really think people choose Hysteria just because they think they have a chance of winning it?
I think that most of the players that pick Hysteria against me, pick it, because they think they have the best chances of winning in this scheme.
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Random, that method just wouldn't work against me, I doubt it'd work against you either, we are too good.
Yes, this problem affects weaker players, but it's their responsibility to get better, or suffer possible consequences.
This is my point, if you are good enough, there is NO situation you can lose if you do everything right.
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Its a shame noobies pick this scheme because they think they have a chance of winning it, but shame to the pros to losing to noobs haha.
Do you really think people choose Hysteria just because they think they have a chance of winning it? Anyone truly skilled in Hysteria would realise the better player will usually win, just like Roper.
Dunno, im just going off what Darkz and ropa said on page 9. Apparently Darkz thinks noobs pick it because its a scheme they arn't good in but think they stand a chance because of the luck and gamble. Just like why dark used to pick T17
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Its a shame noobies pick this scheme because they think they have a chance of winning it, but shame to the pros to losing to noobs haha.
Do you really think people choose Hysteria just because they think they have a chance of winning it? Anyone truly skilled in Hysteria would realise the better player will usually win, just like Roper.
Dunno, im just going off what Darkz and ropa said on page 9. Apparently Darkz thinks noobs pick it because its a scheme they arn't good in but think they stand a chance because of the luck and gamble. Just like why dark used to pick T17
Of course, just like if I came back to league activity right now and my plan was to climb the ladders I'd pick hysteria against more players in better form
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Dunno, im just going off what Darkz and ropa said on page 9. Apparently Darkz thinks noobs pick it because its a scheme they arn't good in but think they stand a chance because of the luck and gamble. Just like why dark used to pick T17
Well, there is some truth to that, although in innocence.
It's usual for average players to have moments of "top form" where 2/3 of their shots are perfect.
But if a player is good enough, he will have held balance the entire game, so it will at least stay as whoever keeps playing better.
An example, I am a very keen pool player and we play alot at work on our breaks, now although there are better players than me, i've had moments of doing like, 3 doubles in a row, then an up/down finish on the black perfectly, this doesn't really mean I got lucky, nor does it mean I am the better player, if my opponent had played his shots good enough, he wouldn't have left me in the situation of doing what I done to get that "extra top form" and win.
Of course, just like if I came back to league activity right now and my plan was to climb the ladders I'd pick hysteria against more players in better form
Yeah, and that would maybe work cuz most players are only average, you would beat lots of noobs, then make it to the PO, and get owned in Hysteria against someone like me, in fact, Random, since he actually makes PO regulary, and i'd say he's a shit hot Hysteria player.
Then you would just be a noob basher, and not a good Hysteria player lol.
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I think that most of the players that pick Hysteria against me, pick it, because they think they have the best chances of winning in this scheme.
Exactly what I'm talking about. Even if the game doesn't go your way you can still save it late game by hiding on the edge of the map, forcing SD, hope for your opponent to miss once you teleport up (of course it's a gamble, nobody has 100% accuracy, not even you Komo), and then have a big chance to gg him. The success rate of this is, as has already been said, less than 50%, but even if it were only 10% it's still ridiculously high for not doing anything productive during the entire game.
There are flaws, face it Komo. Just repeating how good you are won't change that fact, it doesn't have any weight in this topic.
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forcing sudden death = 10 turns
this makes 10 turns for you to prepare yourself and the enviroment for the final shot because in the this scenario u have total mapcontroll. you will have the first shot from the most suitable place on the map. you cant have any better circumstances to end the game. if you still miss, you obviously deserve beeing defeated.
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Yeah, and that would maybe work cuz most players are only average, you would beat lots of noobs, then make it to the PO, and get owned in Hysteria against someone like me, in fact, Random, since he actually makes PO regulary, and i'd say he's a shit hot Hysteria player.
Then you would just be a noob basher, and not a good Hysteria player lol.
What does that have to do with anything? I'd still pick it against better players for the reasons already stated. It's already happening, Rambo confirmed it happened to him. The fact that you think you would own me has little to do with it. I wouldn't pick hysteria against you, not because you're good at it, that's irrelevant, but because there's easier schemes to beat you at. Now if I had to play someone like Mablak then of course hysteria is my first pick, how can it not be? It's my best chance at winning, I believe it's simple enough to understand without the need of getting all defensive and boring the whole forum on how good you think you are.
edit: the 2 viable options to stop most of the drama of the scheme are
a) limit teleports
b) give more HP to worms
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Now if I had to play someone like Mablak then of course hysteria is my first pick, how can it not be? It's my best chance at winning, I believe it's simple enough to understand without the need of getting all defensive and boring the whole forum on how good you think you are.
It's your best chance of winning because Mablak is just so much better than you at everything else, and even at that, I reckon Mablak would still annihilate you in Hysteria.
I don't think you have a chance against him, if he was active.
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Jusr saw last pages :
Komo you are really ridiculous.
I maybe don't agree with ou, peja, chicken and MI but at least they put arguments. You just tell us shit about how good you are, that it is similar to poker etc.
Btw, if forcing SD is not an advantage mostly, are we supposed to bng for 1 hour 80% of games to get the luckyshotgg ?
All my hysts I put myself in danger because I can't last 1 hour on doing those boring shots, so I try to force SD or I get an easy hide for my opponent.
This is so f@#!ing no sense. If both players want very hard to win, they won't force SD and they won't get easy hides. Yeah a competitive schemes that last 1 hour to wait the luckyshotgg.
No joke komo like hyst, he is one of the only guys that don't care playing bng 1 hour on evil hides.
This is why you think hyst is fair.
And don't talk about ur early and mid tactics and bluffs that are so good, this is bullshit.
i enjoy playing hysteria until it comes to the 1v1 end. I already know this is a luckyshotgg fight and don't want to sit and be bored in a hardcore bng fight.
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I reckon Mablak would still annihilate you in Hysteria.
I can darkside all game up to SD and wait for the water to raise almost all the way, and even if he whoever is so much better than me, there's still a chance, for such a gambler scheme, that something happens beyond his control, much more likely than him falling a couple of times in a roper of messing up a default game to the point of no return.
Like when the other day we played a couple of hysterias and even though they were funners and you still won I was still competing, you know, a guy who plays once week versus the greatest hysteria/bng player ever known. Kind of puts to question the competitiveness of the scheme when basically any average joe has a chance on beating the god of the scheme.- This doesn't happen in other schemes I hope you realize what the actual point is.
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They have a chance because mistakes in Hysteria can be more costly than most other schemes, and I am only human.
I am not the best Hysteria player.
Next...
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Yeah like start of game, i try a boucing grenade and it comes back to my face. My worm get ploped.
"Damn it what a fool". 2secs after : "Oo its hysteria, nvm, i'll telepile and get an advantage".
Can't stand anymore argumenting with this guy.
I told most of my thoughts about the schemes and posted my arguments, i've nothing more to say this is just a loss of time talking with you Komo. Your arguments are : I'm good, I'm pro, I'mm bng lover, I'm a bluffer..
If we get back at the start of the topic and start quoting you, we'd have 2 lines about why bng is competitive, 500 lines about ur skills and some CUTE sentences like "People wants to change things about w;a because they are unhappy in their lifes" "Hysteria is like Poker". I forgot the 15 others.
About the schemes, we should try in fact to change some thing, and test it. The worm select idea could be really good. Changing sd to 5 secs maybe too.
If you guys wanna try things i'm here to test with you.
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edit: the 2 viable options to stop most of the drama of the scheme are
a) limit teleports
b) give more HP to worms
Certainly think limiting teleports is worth a good. It would put alot more focus on nicer jetpack moves once your teleports have run out
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Yeah like start of game, i try a boucing grenade and it comes back to my face. My worm get ploped.
"Damn it what a fool". 2secs after : "Oo its hysteria, nvm, i'll telepile and get an advantage".
That doesn't give you an advantage if the other person knows how to handle it.
Next.
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Floris point was that early and mid game don't mean a shit, which defies the logic behind a scheme being competitive (not talking about your twisted definition of the word). You missed the point, in fact you haven't countered a single argument so far which makes that "next" at the end of your posts look pathetic to be honest.
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Floris point was that early and mid game don't mean a shit, which defies the logic behind a scheme being competitive (not talking about your twisted definition of the word). You missed the point, in fact you haven't countered a single argument so far which makes that "next" at the end of your posts look pathetic to be honest.
Without no early and mid game there would be no end-game, you can use your early/mid turns to gain/destroy territory.
Next.
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Without no early and mid game there would be no end-game
We learned something today. Without start there is no end.
you can use your early/mid turns to gain/destroy territory.
I got it now, the goal of early and mid hysteria game is to f@#! the map so end game you cant hide and its fair bng fight without cheated hide.
Next.
No comment.
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Holy crap, guys! I started wading through this thread today and while I was reading, 3 more pages got added!
I've tried to put down the suggestions offered in this thread (the majority in the first 3 pages, after which, for some reason, it became more of a personal thing).
Elite
Team17
- Remove from classic league (nappy, Flori)
- Change the scheme (Chicken23)
Hysteria
- Hysteria should be in Free League. (Flori, darkz)
- Anti-suicide rule (Flori)
- Anti-darkside rule (Flori)
- Remove it from classic league (darkz, Free, Flori, ShyGuy)
- Change the scheme (Flori, MonkeyIsland)
BnG
TTRR
- checking times precisely as the standard rule (plenty of people)
Roper
WxW
Shopper
- Remove this from classic league (Free, Flori)
- Change the scheme (Professor, Chicken23)
Intermediate
- Put this in classic (Flori, Free, nappy, Random00, Mablak)
- Intermediate should have different point system, because it takes longer (Random00)
Big RR
- Put this in Classic League (Flori)
WFW
- Put this in classic league (nappy)
Aerial
- Put this in classic league (sm0k, fr4nk)
General
- Add TUS Default and Roper league in addition to classic league and remove the rotated league. (SPW)
- Agree on both picks before the first game is played (chicken23)
- Stop the pointless debating and actually put up with your scheme suggestion and do something with it (HHC)
about killing own worms:whats the problem? you also sacrifice your own units chess to create a trap.
It's not so much about killing your own worm - grave damage is a good weapon, kamikaze is used in elite as well. The difference is that a Monty Python sketch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHk2RSMCS8) has become a valid tactic.
You mention chess as an example, but I can tell you that giving your opponent a piece is usually a very bad thing - it takes a certain position before sacrificing a piece gives you any sort of advantage.
As it stands now, turn order abuse is too powerful a weapon in hysteria.
You could call it out-of-the-box thinking, but if killing your own worm in any position is a good thing, you can't really speak of out-of-the-box thinking, can you? :)
It's also the main reason why hysteria turns into a 1on1 battle. If having more worms becomes less of a disadvantage (or *gasp* an advantage), then less games will turn into a 1on1 battle.
ShyGuy, you used the example of hysterias where avirex kills his worms at the start of the game. Have you ever tried a clan roper where your clan mate lags out/quits before the game starts? The same reasoning applies here - there are piles every turn and the 1 person team is probably more likely to win this round.
A couple of suggestions have been made with regards to changing the scheme to nerf turn order abuse in hysteria - random turn order, restricting teleports (though jetpacks could still make turn order abuse very much possible) and I'd like to add a suggestion from Darío on IRC: enable worm select.
Instead of talking, why not create the scheme you desire?
I'm fairly sure that if you manage to make it 'better' (as subjective as it may be) and host some tourneys/cups in it it will get approved sooner or later.
It's easy to blah-blah-blah, but it's hard to overcome laziness ;D
This really is the best way to get things done imo and not enough people do this.
Having 14 pages of discussion hasn't changed anything. It never has and it probably never will. Action is required - show us an alternative that works.
The shopper scheme of cl2k was dramatically changed in fb. Why? Because FFie made a shopper scheme of her own for wmdb and it was very balanced (and proven to be so in tournaments). The fb scheme was virtually a copy of that wmdb scheme (few small tweaks).
WFW was first made when we got colour maps by miner2049 and didn't get off the ground. What happened next? Wyv picked it up from the worms history bin, made a couple of maps. Spread the word through IRC, next thing, FFie hosts a couple of tournaments with it. It's not a popular game now, but there are now 30-40ish maps for WFW and still survives to this day (8 years after it was first made)
TTRR used to be 30 seconds RR - what happened? Dextah090 hosted a RRkit tourney where everybody had 90 seconds per turn (we didn't have infinite time like now yet) and had to finish the map as quickly as possible with all worms/get as far as possible if the map wasn't finishable in 90 seconds. The idea caught on, more tourneys were hosted and eventually, TTRR replaced regular RR.
Aerial. HHC made it this year and it's already gotten enough popularity to be picked in free league. Why? Cups, cups, cups.
The reason trick BnG exists is because a couple of people organised their own league with its own tournaments (a2b).
I don't think I have to explain how hysteria came to be, do I?
You can all have your own ideas about each of these schemes - you can love them, you can hate them, but this is how shit gets started. It starts with one (or a few) people who start something up and the rest will follow suit. Get your friends to play it. Host a tournament with your particular scheme. Host a cup with your particular scheme. Get it out there and not just in a forum thread with 300 different opinions where the thread topic is completely lost after 14 pages.
If the scheme is bollocks, then it will be discarded and forgotten.
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Well done DarkOne :)
The Whole 14 pages weren't so useless, they made me change my ideas little by little by reading argumnts of each one.
This is how i see it now :
T17 : Remove from classic league if there is no changes.
Change the schemes is of course a better idea because this schemes could be really better. I used to enjoy a lot T17 years ago.
Hysteria : Change the scheme. (like 5sec sd, put select worm or something else).
Shopper : Same as t17. Remove it from Classic league of change the schemes.
Intermediate in Classic league. About point system as Rdm00 said, why not.
Big RR : Still think it should be 1 more schemes of classic league.
TTRR : Don't change anything.
Btw I don't see Komo in any proposition. Shows how useless his comments are.
I THINK EVERYONE INTERESTED ON THE TOPIC SHOULD DO A LIST LIKE THIS SO WE COULD KNOW WHAT MOST PEOPLE THINK.
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T17 - edit scheme, too many weapons repeat and lots of games end without sd weapons
Elite
Hysteria - Remove and put Aerials instead, or edit scheme with only few teleports
Roper
TTRR
Shopper
WxW - remove some useless weapons (dragon ball etc)
BnG - (I better don't talk lol)
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weeeeee creating a bitch list is fun:
hysteria: what about replacing the cow with a ss? people wont like a 1 vs 1 if ss is still there.
shopper: deleting all rules, people already complain about getting ground weapons, so wheres the sense for afr/afc? if you dont collect a crate, have fun attacking with the drill.
team 17: delete anti ropeknock. u only have 1 rope, if you knock you cant hide well. also it adds some creativity.
elite: delete anti ropeknock: similar to team 17. cows could be a nice weapon, would add some more options.
roper: scheme of avirex ftw, check the several topics for reasons.
bng: change to the scheme of komo, maybe adding retreat time.
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Hysteria: This scheme is perfect
Elite: This scheme is perfect
WxW: This scheme is perfect
Team17: add some more sd weapons
Shopper: default scheme isn't bad but players can edit somethings before starting the game
TTRR: default scheme is OK but players can decide to count hundredths of a second if they both agree
Roper: default scheme is OK but players can decide to use the w2w rule when the crate is hard to collect
BnG: Infinite teleports and shotguns. Players can decide to deselect the anchorage mode if they both agree
Add Intermediate on Classic League with another system point based on the won rounds. Players can decide to play Bo1 if they both agree
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Btw I don't see Komo in any proposition. Shows how useless his comments are.
That's not entirely fair, is it? If somebody suggests removing TTRR from the classic league and you defend TTRR, that would mean there's no suggestion coming from you - does that make your post useless? ;)
I wholeheartedly agree with getting rid of afr in shopper :) I've always found it a pointless rule
For general, I would like to add this suggestion: add draws.
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Flori, with that reasoning, 99% of entire posts from everyone on TUS are useless.
I have gave, already, more than enough reasoning, you just don't see it from my point of view.
Hysteria - It's fine as it is, but i'd like option of whoever picks chooses SD time.
Elite - Not bothered
WxW - Don't care
T17 - *yawn*
Shopper - Really don't givva f@#!
BnG - If notching is untracable, so either make a rule no repeats are allowed, or make it no rules unanchored.
TTRR - There should be no choice, it should be MS whether they like it or not, defying the laws of the universe is f@#!ing retarded.
Roper - The scheme is fine, drill it into peoples heads to stop using ridiculous zig zag maze from harry potter maps like dumbasses.
Intermediate/Kaos/Aerial should all be put into their own 3-way League.
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roper: scheme of avirex ftw, check the several topics for reasons.
where can i find this schemes ?
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https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-653/ this or this https://www.tus-wa.com/schemes/scheme-303/
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For general, I would like to add this suggestion: add draws.
I like this, draws could happen a lot more in Elite if people could actually report them.
BnG - If notching is untracable, so either make a rule no repeats are allowed, or make it no rules unanchored.
As someone who knows how notching works you should realize that making it unanch would give notchers even more advantage.
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It does and it doesn't, it does in the sense you will own a complete noob, it doesn't in the sense trickery is more useful than notching if VERY good at it.
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ShyGuy, you used the example of hysterias where avirex kills his worms at the start of the game. Have you ever tried a clan roper where your clan mate lags out/quits before the game starts? The same reasoning applies here - there are piles every turn and the 1 person team is probably more likely to win this round.
Interesting that you mention that. If someone lags out or quits before a roper game, then it is usually rehosted. However, there is no way you can manually and legally kill off yourself in the first turns of roper. Me and avi even tested once: I would do as much damage to myself as possible with crate firebombs and fall damage to kill myself quickly to see if he could 1v2 win. It never worked. We even tested it in clanners, and we got slaughtered because it takes too long for one to kill himself, and the other team is double ganging the other worm in the meantime. So that's what separates that example from hysteria.
Hysteria - Replace hysteria with an Aerial variation with 3 seconds, limited teleports, a few added weapons (including one worm select).
Elite - Remove mines and oil for more fair worm placement opportunity for player 2. I know this will never happen in this community and I don't intend to argue it, don't worry. But I would like to see the power of moles increased so much that they would do at least as much damage as they do in mole shoppas. Increase the power of Old Lady and Sheep Launcher to 4 stars and maybe they'll see more play. I'd like to see more super weapons be used in elite. Also allow rope knocking.
Wxw - Ugh, such a stale scheme with all those linear maps. I'd rather see big RR replace this since big RR promotes pure consistency, which is the goal of wxw but without the attacking with crates. This would also balance the roping schemes - 2 schemes where you fetch a crate and attack and 2 schemes where it is just pure rope without worrying about combat.
T17 - There should be a rule against attacking first turn since sometimes one player can be out 1 (in some rare cases 2) just because he got unlucky with placements and happened to go second. T17 is already considered a pretty lucky scheme, this is a simple rule to eliminate some very extra bad luck that can happen. Also, when 4.0 comes out, definitely remove magic bullet, bananas, army, and vase. If I had to eliminate just one, it would be magic bullet - you can't protect against it and it's a point and click brainless game winner. I've also wondered how games would play out if both teams started with a homing missile. I think this would detract from one of the best things about t17, which is trying to guess and determine what weapons your opponent has. I would say increase the chance of getting homing missiles in the crates slightly. Also allow rope knocking
Shoppa - the Tus scheme is awful. I've made a thread about it already. Eliminate fire punch and dragonball because they just suck ass when you are forced to leave your rope for only 30 damage. Reduce chances of getting a shotgun, because for some reason the tus scheme has them very high. Bats are also annoying. Reduce power on flamethrower so it doesn't do 2x more damage than the 2nd most powerful weapon. Add weapons like homing missile and low powered cows.
Bng - I've still played no rules bng, so I dont know if that would be better. The girder rules in bng right now are really silly, forcing someone to waste turns to destroy the girder. There seems to be a lot of complaints in bng. Haven't done enough testing on this scheme yet to come to a conclusion.
TTRR - If someone wants to use precise timing, they should be allowed to. Everything else is fine with this scheme
Roper - I support w2roper. Roper is the worst scheme in the league, imo. Same hides all game, mindlessly fetching crates, ridiculous first turn zook rule, and being forced not to attack because the game engine gave you an impossible crate. If I had to change things about roper, I would eliminate the zook first turn rule... there's just no need for it and it can make you waste a turn if you get bad situational wind.
Intermediate - I'm for it entering the league in a bo2 or higher form. It's more classic than any other scheme, and surely it would attract newer people to playing tus competitively.
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why is rope knocking illegal in t17 and elite, who came up with that shit?
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No idea, but i like to think that Intermediate > Elite thx to rope knocks among other things xd
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IIRC .. When there were still ranks, there was an Elite and a Team17 channel where if you hosted there was no option to change the scheme, it was Elite/Team17 by default. In those channels rope knocking was impossible, just like it is in PartyTime now. That's where the rule came from.
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w2roper schemes seems cool
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Bringing this thread back.. What are the next steps? If we are going to make some scheme changes and for them to become the new offical tus schemes we should probably break down each one and have a sticky topic for each scheme.
We then need to decide on a process and stick to it, everyone should be in agreement with this imo... We could have a poll and argee changes and make it offical.. Personally I am not in favour of this diplomatic approach.. Theres alot of conflicting views that will cause alot of delays, these schemes were created by Wooka with errors and its only through inexperience, naivety and repetition that they have become the norm.
I still think the mods (including myself Muhahaha) should take a decision.. Without sounding to egocentric i believe that some opinions and arguments aren't as critical or educated because there experience is only TuS league schemes and haven't played the schemes with previous variations over the years..
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I salute you Tom.
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the problem is that a lot of tus player wont vote for changes/ for not changes.
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the problem is that a lot of tus player wont vote for changes/ for not changes.
Yes because they feel comfortable with schemes like the current Hysteria being in classic league, because they have a shot at winning that way. Imagine it wasn't in classic league, they couldn't win anything because they had to learn other schemes. I wouldn't feel different if I were them, always nice to pick the easiest way.
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Better delete Hysteria from your brain that Hysteria is a noob scheme than from league , it requires skills and tactics, Hysteria will not be deleted.
By the way this is the worst excuse ever when you don't like it and don't want to learn it.
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i quote kaleu coddio
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Kaleu that's not the point.
No one is saying Hysteria doesn't take skill. I've seen some high level hysteria replays and it takes lots of worm skill to reach that level of gameplay.
That doesn't mean that if anyone here had their life at stake based on whether or not they beat Mablak in one game of their scheme of choice, 100% of us pick hysteria. If you remove hysteria, it's Team17, or Shopper. Make of it what you must buddy.
edit: i'm not saying remove hysteria; a few tweaks to the scheme would make us move forward, since removing it would be counter productive at this point (this debate should of have taken place before the introduction of the scheme, not now)
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The hysteria debate needs to be taken to another thread i think.
Darkone made a great post that summarized all the ideas put forward and each one of these ideas need to be discussed and developed so that we can take action on all these issues...
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Yes because they feel comfortable with schemes like the current Hysteria being in classic league, because they have a shot at winning that way. Imagine it wasn't in classic league, they couldn't win anything because they had to learn other schemes. I wouldn't feel different if I were them, always nice to pick the easiest way.
Dude you are so cynical... No need to reply here already have in another thread lol.
That doesn't mean that if anyone here had their life at stake based on whether or not they beat Mablak in one game of their scheme of choice, 100% of us pick hysteria. If you remove hysteria, it's Team17, or Shopper. Make of it what you must buddy.
Bullshit, i'd pick BnG, and i'd probably win.
The only scheme I see almost impossible to beat Mablak is TTRR, but for sure i'd think Dulek/Cueshark/LordHound/Dibz/Flori and quite alot more have a good chance of beating him in a live match. Plus imo you and alot of others would have a better chance of beating him in Roper than Hysteria.
Seriously you and anyone else who thinks people pick Hysteria to have better chance of winning are idiots, people tend to enjoy what's popular, Hysteria is only the most popular scheme in TuS Classic, any newcomers will instantly wanna know what all the fuss is about, and play it, damn you are so thick lol...
Man you speak too much crap man lol.
ropa/darkz - If TuS made ALL the changes you ALL agreed on, would you play more, would you give up your lifes and get active? I seriously think if anything changed nothing would change, you would still be pretty inactive...
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The numbers and facts have already been presented before... you keep countering with anecdotes... that's not how you win an argument... like this statement:
ropa/darkz - If TuS made ALL the changes you ALL agreed on, would you play more, would you give up your lifes and get active? I seriously think if anything changed nothing would change, you would still be pretty inactive...
has nothing to do with the discussion at hand... what is the point in saying this? Even if the premise is true and the changes are made and darkz and ropa stay inactive, that doesn't validate or invalidate the points they have made about the scheme... and this is why we can never have an effective debate when you enter the realm... it's honestly post after post of building straw men out of you
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ShyGuy, I asked the question out of personal curiosity, you got a problem with that?
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As Shy said that's got nothing to do with the topic and is by no means relevant to any point I've made. But let me say this, the guys who make the rules in most sports are most of the time not active anymore, aka retired ex-sportsmen.
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the guys who make the rules in most sports are most of the time not active anymore, aka retired ex-sportsmen.
And Jouse Mourinho is a pretty good coach I've heard
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Why can't you just answer the question man?
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Because
it's got nothing to do with the topic and is by no means relevant to any point I've made.
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Because
it's got nothing to do with the topic and is by no means relevant to any point I've made.
And who are you to judge that? Are you God or something?
Can you read my mind and know what I was gonna reply with?
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I agree, remove hyst and shopper.
There are pro schemes like ttrr or bng (you will not beat Dulek in ttrr, you will not beat Komo in bng), and there are lucky schemes like Flori said, in which even Chelsea can get a win against bests by accident. They should be removed.
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roper 60% luck 40% skill
shoppa 90% 10%
t17 95% - 5%
but hysteria : 70 % tactic 29 skills 1 luck
so maciej if u like to remove all lucky schemes we will play : bng ttrr wxw elite in italia i'd say BELLA MERDA.. (good shit)
i can undestand if some peoples doesnt like hysteria but its very tactic scheme and if i can win against komo or random its only because i have good tactic on telekill and telecow , but itsnt luck trust me
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Nice statistics easy, have you found them in rubbish bin?
Read what Flori wrote, we can play hysteria for 40 minutes and even longer, because of sick hides, I know it, I used to play like that, and I'm bored of it too. It's stupid scheme, because best tactic is killing yourself worms, it's sick and idiotic. You can still win this even if your opponent gets huge advantage on start (that's stupid too, I have seen match where in first turn player loses his 3 worms on 4 he had).
This scheme brings fun only in funners, in league matches it's boring and irritating, can be played for hour and longer, and is really about luck.
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i think its your thing its sick and idiotic kill your worms I LIKE THAT i like kill my worms trying to do max damage at yours , and if i can i'd kill 3/4 worms at first turn all times , if u play against me 40 min its impossible max 20 25 because i ever force sd if u stay in '' a sick hide''
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Because
it's got nothing to do with the topic and is by no means relevant to any point I've made.
And who are you to judge that? Are you God or something?
Can you read my mind and know what I was gonna reply with?
I don't need a reason to not answer your off-topic question either. Consider yourself lucky that I explained why I didn't answer it.
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ShyGuy, I asked the question out of personal curiosity, you got a problem with that?
You asked a an irrelevant question and then assumed your own answer to your own irrelevant question right after you asked it... We don't need god to judge if it is relevant to the debate... whether or not darkz/ropa stay inactive (I don't even think they are inactive) can not validate or invalidate arguments made for and against the scheme of hysteria, what is so hard to understand about this? It's basic logic, and it's detrimental to an argument when you constantly throw red herrings into the pond... the fact that we are now arguing why your question is unimportant shows how damaging red herrings can be to a conversation. Stick with the issue at hand and stop getting personal with every response
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Why is hysteria the most popular scheme? Because it's so fun?
Do people buy into that blindlessly or do they acknowledge there might be other reasons?
On another note, ShyGuy is growing into a really reasonable and intelligent guy, you should listen to him.
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shy has has always been a reasonable nad itelligent guy...
he onces offered to trade me pics of his sitster, for pics of my gf...
how much more reasonable can you get?
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Nice statistics easy, have you found them in rubbish bin?
Read what Flori wrote, we can play hysteria for 40 minutes and even longer, because of sick hides, I know it, I used to play like that, and I'm bored of it too. It's stupid scheme, because best tactic is killing yourself worms, it's sick and idiotic. You can still win this even if your opponent gets huge advantage on start (that's stupid too, I have seen match where in first turn player loses his 3 worms on 4 he had).
This scheme brings fun only in funners, in league matches it's boring and irritating, can be played for hour and longer, and is really about luck.
1 hour or longer? Seriously man?
I never seen a hysteria took 45+ minutes to end.
If you used to play like that as you wrote, you are a noob really, no offense, because you can force the
sudden death, this excuse about hidding on the side never was valid and never will.
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Nice statistics easy, have you found them in rubbish bin?
Read what Flori wrote, we can play hysteria for 40 minutes and even longer, because of sick hides, I know it, I used to play like that, and I'm bored of it too. It's stupid scheme, because best tactic is killing yourself worms, it's sick and idiotic. You can still win this even if your opponent gets huge advantage on start (that's stupid too, I have seen match where in first turn player loses his 3 worms on 4 he had).
This scheme brings fun only in funners, in league matches it's boring and irritating, can be played for hour and longer, and is really about luck.
1 hour or longer? Seriously man?
I never seen a hysteria took 45+ minutes to end.
If you used to play like that as you wrote, you are a noob really, no offense, because you can force the
sudden death, this excuse about hidding on the side never was valid and never will.
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The point is most of the people complaining about it don't even take 1v1 TuS Classic League seriously, they will never be active again.
I have seen more complaints about other schemes that people consistently play (BnG for example) and the rules STILL don't change, the fact you even think your irrelevant opinions on Hysteria will make a difference when everyone knows you don't even take part or won't even if you got your foolish changes, is quite funny to me, the only way I see you getting active is to prove me wrong cuz you ALL love trying to do that more than you enjoy actually doing WA related things.
Unless you are going to take part in something you helped change, or you own it, you should just say how you feel and not get involved any deeper.
You talk about logic?
Does this seem logical? 10-20 people(that's being generous) want Hysteria changed, so it gets changed, they never play, other people who enjoyed it before stop playing because they don't enjoy it anymore.
Oh yeah, VERRRRRRRY logical lol...
Edit: Maciej, Hysterias very rarely take 45+ minutes, if they do, both players aren't good enough.
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Edit: Maciej, Hysterias very rarely take 45+ minutes, if they do, both players aren't good enough.
both are good enough, no one wanna lose, they take good hides, they tele from place to place, both are careful, and it goes like that
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Well said Komo, the most people who want change and delete the scheme don't even play league or they are too much inactive, so I ask:
Will you all comeback or play it after all of this drama? I bet no!
Edit: Maciej, Hysterias very rarely take 45+ minutes, if they do, both players aren't good enough.
both are good enough, no one wanna lose, they take good hides, they tele from place to place, both are careful, and it goes like that
One of them is smart enough, he wanna win, he skip some turns, sudden death starts, keep careful, and win the match.
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^ Because water rise is a 100% safe win. ::)
José Mourinho: Ok guys I need you to run for 30 minutes, you need some more stamina.
Players: u dont even play football how would u know?!?!?! trololol
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If your only argument is "we don't see you in wormnet" I think it's about time you realize these same points me and darkz are making have been used by very good and very active hysteria (or other scheme) players*
If that's your only argument I suggest you drop it, It's like me saying the people defending hysteria don't know what they're talking about because it so happen most of them struggle with the English language. It's a moot point. It's even more ridiculous when you realize me and darkz are actually involved with the game. More so than most people posting here, I'll add.
All you're doing here, Komo and company, is playing devil's advocate in a very simplistic way (it's almost embarrasing). Like that forcing SD thing; it doesn't matter. If a noob is playing a pro he will teleprot to caves all day long and forcing SD isn't giving you any sort of definite advantage, in fact, one could argue it's making the game even more unpredictable with the added water raise.
*it's time those guys step in again and talk, even though I don't blame them for not wanting part in a "Komo-thread".
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No it isn't my only arguement, it's a very very very small thing, i've already pointed out other reasons why you talk shit about Hysteria.
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No it isn't my only arguement, it's a very very very small thing, i've already pointed out other reasons why you talk shit about Hysteria.
What exactly is a very very small thing for you though? Something you need to point out 50 times in different threads?
You made absolutely no sense in all the time you've been here. Komo, open your eyes, you're being supported by the likes of Kaleu and easy (no offense) whilst people like Shyguy, darkz, Guaton in the past have told you this same thing:
Hysteria is the scheme noobs pick to beat pros becase the nature of the scheme gives them the biggest chance by abusing tactics that take no skill whatsoever.
Live with it and please, for the love of god stop thinking of yourself so highly man, people send PMs to each other to talk about how stupid you sound, people talk on IRC about how stupid you sound, people are telling you in threads and even making good comedy out of it. For how much longer you wanna keep having that reputation?
in before "i don't care what people think about me". I hope you don't say that, it would be a very obvious contradiction judging by how much you like to post to try and be right regardless of how many people are pointing out to you just how wrong you are. Are you really alien to all this?
Someone needs to say it man, you're not very intelligent, you just have a lot of self steem and ego, but you're not very bright man. You're also awful with music, really awful. I mean, ok, your productions could make it to some iphone game of sorts or something, but damn it man, for all that time you invest in it it surely sucks.
Reality Komo, you need to become one with reality.
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What exactly is a very very small thing for you though? Something you need to point out 50 times in different threads?
Live with it.
You always have and will have the opportunity to politely ask reasons to why I ask things, but you choose to insult people instead because you can't actually come up with any useful information.
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You made absolutely no sense in all the time you've been here. Komo, open your eyes, you're being supported by the likes of Kaleu and easy (no offense)
Because the important people already know that the scheme will not be changed, they are tired of these trheads so they just ignore your cry about Hysteria.
I just answered Maciej, I don't want to take part in it, because I know that it will be the same shit and cry in 100 different threads.
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Hysteria has never been classic league scheme, it's new shit.
And why poor clans often picks hysteria against the bests? They will never pick ttrr or elite because they will easy lose because of skill. Hysteria is a lotery, so they choose it, even if they can get much more points in other schemes.
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Maybe coz is it funniest scheme?
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Hysteria has never been classic league scheme, it's new shit.
And why poor clans often picks hysteria against the bests? They will never pick ttrr or elite because they will easy lose because of skill. Hysteria is a lotery, so they choose it, even if they can get much more points in other schemes.
Because for them it's fun like shopper, noone born knowing elite tactics and roping skills so yes the chances are good, but don't exagerate. Anyway it don't seems to matter for you. People who dislike the scheme and suck at it always has an excuse. ;)
Edit: For experienced players the level of playing is different, I'm not saying every Hyst players love shopper, I'm only poiting weak clans and how it goes on wormnet.
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Edit: For experienced players the level of playing is different, I'm not saying every Hyst players love shopper, I'm only poiting weak clans and how it goes on wormnet.
you know your own clan picked 30% hysteria in last season? ;D
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Edit: For experienced players the level of playing is different, I'm not saying every Hyst players love shopper, I'm only poiting weak clans and how it goes on wormnet.
you know your own clan picked 30% hysteria in last season? ;D
And what it has to do with my post?
We are the experienced part, if you are trying to say that I called my own clan weak because we like Hysteria, nice try lol.
And you know that we won the majority?
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I want data. How many times do mm, CKC, CF and cFc pick hysteria against lowest ranked clans and how many times it's the other way around?
I'd love to know this so I can use numbers instead of common sense seeing as the latter doesn't work.
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out of all the clanners I played with cfc this season, hyst was the most, I'd say we picked it 80 percent of the time
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out of all the clanners I played with cfc this season, hyst was the most, I'd say we picked it 80 percent of the time
According to cfc current season statistics:
Out of all the games this season cFc played roughly 24% hysteria (41 games).
Out of those 41 games only 27% of the times they picked it, roughly 10 times, which is not crazy considering Komo was part of the clan not long ago.
edit: I checked the other top clans. All data supports that it's the scheme worse players pick to beat better players. I feel really stupid for not having checked it before, seeing as it's all there in the clan profiles. Waiting to see how Komo twists this one around.
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Yeah, out of the 16 hyst I played, I think it was about 80 percent our pick. Couldn't say for all 41
I guess 27 is pretty high, considering its tied for our most picked scheme.
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The point is most of the people complaining about it don't even take 1v1 TuS Classic League seriously, they will never be active again.
I have seen more complaints about other schemes that people consistently play (BnG for example) and the rules STILL don't change, the fact you even think your irrelevant opinions on Hysteria will make a difference when everyone knows you don't even take part or won't even if you got your foolish changes, is quite funny to me, the only way I see you getting active is to prove me wrong cuz you ALL love trying to do that more than you enjoy actually doing WA related things.
Unless you are going to take part in something you helped change, or you own it, you should just say how you feel and not get involved any deeper.
You talk about logic?
Does this seem logical? 10-20 people(that's being generous) want Hysteria changed, so it gets changed, they never play, other people who enjoyed it before stop playing because they don't enjoy it anymore.
Oh yeah, VERRRRRRRY logical lol...
Edit: Maciej, Hysterias very rarely take 45+ minutes, if they do, both players aren't good enough.
Logical fallacy after logical fallacy in this post... You're creating false behaviors for us (saying we are inactive, we won't come back even if it changes, we just want to prove you wrong and we don't really care about the scheme) and using your made up facts about us to invalidate arguments made against hysteria. This is like the most basic logical fallacy, ad hominem, attacking the person instead of their arguments. Komo, it doesn't make a difference if Hitler, Jesus, Agent Dale Cooper, or a homeless person comes up with these points against hysteria, do you realize that? Stop looking at the person making the argument and try isolating the claims and focusing on directly refuting each point with empirical evidence.
Also, I don't know where you get off on saying all this bullshit about us not taking part in anything. We've all played hysteria since it came out and we still play it. We've made observations about the scheme, as well as a lot of other people. You're telling us our input doesn't matter just because YOU think we don't play enough in your eyes. If you've resorted to countering arguments against a scheme by using false assumptions about our irrelevant activity, something that has nothing to do with the minute details and theories of hysteria, then I'm just going to assume you've lost the debate.
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Guys, you dont have smth better to do in your life than posting long stories? Nobody cares in a few days. Maybe you can use your time for smth more important than debate day for day, week for week, month for month? And its always komito, avirex, shyguy and ropa. Husbands and wifes.. but I'm sure I'm not the only one getting really bored about it.
And dont blame hysteria, its a good scheme and very popular nowadays. Removing schemes like hysteria, shoppa etc. will drop activity hard and it would not be a smart move. And why every scheme has to be with 0% luck? Imo this makes it more interesting and we need that luck factor. There are schemes with low luck and there some with more. Thats really ok and no reason to change anything.
I can live with those 8 classic schemes. Maybe some schemes needs little changes, like "no rule" for BnG etc, but not by removing at all. Especially not hysteria. At first its fun and at second you will lose a lot of people and it would be a very bad step in the wrong direction!
Keep schemes in. :)
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SPW hit the nail on the head.
I don't see any schemes being removed from classic league but just some tweaks to current TUS schemes.. or rule changes etc.
The long posts and debates are not very productive and seem to be more personal battles to prove eachother wrong, instead of actually providing a useful solution to improving TUS.
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How do you know tweaking hysteria will cause a large reduction of activity? People could still play the fixed scheme and/or pick other schemes. We'll never know unless we actually test things out. We could always bring the original scheme back if it caused such catastrophic inactivity to the league. If the scheme has been proven to be unworthy of being in the league, we shouldn't be forced to keep it because of what might happen.
There's nothing wrong with having sides argue a point, but usually there's just too many people who jump into the debate and simply don't know how to argue and that's when the thread goes to shit because of all the ad hominems and straw men. Perhaps a board that made us anonymous would make these more productive, but then again, that wouldn't stop all the silly one line posts like "stop the whining about hysteria, you need much skill and it should stay in the league unchanged."
Not enough people actually argue their side effectively whilst following the rules of logic, and I don't say logic as in "common sense", I'm talking about university level "if A = B and B = C" kind of logic applied to arguments for and against hysteria.
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Hight ranked clans pick hyst/t17 only when they get so little points for other schemes.
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Guys, you dont have smth better to do in your life than posting long stories? Nobody cares in a few days. Maybe you can use your time for smth more important than debate day for day, week for week, month for month? And its always komito, avirex, shyguy and ropa. Husbands and wifes.. but I'm sure I'm not the only one getting really bored about it.
And dont blame hysteria, its a good scheme and very popular nowadays. Removing schemes like hysteria, shoppa etc. will drop activity hard and it would not be a smart move. And why every scheme has to be with 0% luck? Imo this makes it more interesting and we need that luck factor. There are schemes with low luck and there some with more. Thats really ok and no reason to change anything.
I can live with those 8 classic schemes. Maybe some schemes needs little changes, like "no rule" for BnG etc, but not by removing at all. Especially not hysteria. At first its fun and at second you will lose a lot of people and it would be a very bad step in the wrong direction!
Keep schemes in. :)
What's the difference between say, ShyGuy actually giving a logical argument against some of the rules in hysteria and you making an equally long post saying people shouldn't argue and things should stay as they are because you like them as they are?
I rather read ShyGuy because he at least tries to make a valid argumental point as opposed to repeating his personal opinion based on taste for the 10th time whilst telling everyone else to shut up.
I'm sorry Tom if you don't find any of these "long posts" productive, I wonder then, if you're actually up for tweaking the scheme in order to make it more fitting for an allaround league, how would you proceed? Have we failed in identifying the problems with the scheme in this thread? We've provided plenty of examples and so far the feedback has given us 0 counter-arguments. All we've heard is, "stop arguing", "keep things like they are because hysteria is popular" and Komodo make his posts, which I assume most of us skip, anyway...
The evidence in this thread proves that Hysteria is a gamble scheme, always picked by the lower ranked clans/players in order to over-achieve. That doesn't mean hysteria can't be pro, it just shows how the community is acting towards the scheme. If you think identifying a problem is unproductive then so be it but I find it extremely patronizing.
SPW, I do have better things to do in life, however, the 5 minutes it takes me to write a post aren't going to stop me from accomplishing those other things. Thanks for your concerns, anyway. Don't you have better things to spend your money in?
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Ropa, that money thing was totally uncalled for, if anything, SPW and others should be thanked for contributing their own money into this game we love.
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Ropa, that money thing was totally uncalled for, if anything, SPW and others should be thanked for contributing their own money into this game we love.
Exactly, thanks for understanding the comparison.
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we pick hysteria because it's fun O= not because we have better chance to win in it compared to other schemes
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Ropa, that money thing was totally uncalled for, if anything, SPW and others should be thanked for contributing their own money into this game we love.
Exactly, thanks for understanding the comparison.
And what was it?
All I read was trying to make a funny remark.
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we pick hysteria because it's fun O= not because we have better chance to win in it compared to other schemes
Do you have any data to back this up? Or is this just what you want to believe and hope that by repeating it many times it eventually becomes true?
Can you elaborate? Why do you think "fun" is the reason and not "small learning curve therefore anyone can get decent at it and actually win games in a league"?
And what was it?
All I read was trying to make a funny remark.
Ok let me spoon feed you Free since you insist in talking about this particular subject in this particular thread for some particular reason.
SPW told us we were wasting time by making posts.
I made a similar claim in hopes he realizes how unecesary his original claim was.
If you have any more doubts use the PM function, unless you want to offer feedback on why Hysteria is so rarely picked by top clans and why is it so often picked against them, because quite frankly, that's all I'm interested in but for some reason people are not up for it, they rather just come here with empty comments whilst trying and sell us personal opinions as valuable information.
It's really funny when there's an actual discussion about a scheme going on, you'll have a couple of people taking an objective stance and actually providing with argumetns to make points and then you'll have a bunch of random people jumping in without having read anything on the topic and just asking everyone to shut up because they're good at the scheme.
A=B B=C. If you claim the main reason people have to play hysteria is it being fun, the fact that hysteria is the most popular scheme mUst mean it's the most fun. Now, do you think any top 10 all arounder in this league has hysteria as their most enjoyable scheme? I highly doubt it. Why though? Because they can acutally play top level in every scheme and can compare, the people that pìck hysteria against top clans, not so much.
edit: Free, I did ask you to use the PM function if all you wanted to do is backseat moderate. So please do if you're still concerned but don't expect me to fall for that flame bait. If you so choose to be offtopic and speak about how unwitty, unfunny and uncanny ropa is I suggest you use the Offtopic forum or do the intelligent thing and keep it to yoruself, because hand ain't even listening.
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we pick hysteria because it's fun O= not because we have better chance to win in it compared to other schemes
Do you have any data to back this up? Or is this just what you want to believe and hope that by repeating it many times it eventually becomes true?
Can you elaborate? Why do you think "fun" is the reason and not "small learning curve therefore anyone can get decent at it and actually win games in a league"?
And what was it?
All I read was trying to make a funny remark.
Ok let me spoon feed you Free since you insist in talking about this particular subject in this particular thread for some particular reason.
SPW told us we were wasting time by making posts.
I made a similar claim in hopes he realizes how unecesary his original claim was.
If you have any more doubts use the PM function, unless you want to offer feedback on why Hysteria is so rarely picked by top clans and why is it so often picked against them, because quite frankly, that's all I'm interested in but for some reason people are not up for it, they rather just come here with empty comments whilst trying and sell us personal opinions as valuable information.
It's really funny when there's an actual discussion about a scheme going on, you'll have a couple of people taking an objective stance and actually providing with argumetns to make points and then you'll have a bunch of random people jumping in without having read anything on the topic and just asking everyone to shut up because they're good at the scheme.
It's bad enough that the data is there for anyone to see yet people insist on claiming hysteria is the most played scheme because it's the most fun. Really not buying into it, sorry.
Cut the drama crap already, your "witty remark" wasn't really that witty. If you would actually KNOW what your talking about, you'd know I've shared my opinion on this matter multiple times on this very thread.
You could also tune down how your the king of forum etiquette, you fall on the same traps you claim people "always do".
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Too many hysteria/roper threads.
The point you say that Hysteria is being picked more against high skilled players is true but noobs (as you call them) don't pick it just because it is a gamble scheme. That's not untrue, but that is not the entire thing:
1. Hysteria is the scheme kids today play. Elite isn't. New players have confidence in Hysteria because it is one of the most played scheme of theirs, ergo the scheme gets to be picked most. Your father may call you noob not being able to play Chess with him while you pick Tetris against him. A gamble game.
2. High skilled players, which are considered BnG/Elite/RR/Roper players mostly, don't take Hysteria seriously and don't bother to learn. I mean comon, who wants to learn Tetris when there is Chess? I am sure I can find hysteria games between pr0s and no0bs that pr0s lost because of very bad mistakes not because of "gamble shots".
3. Our top clans consist of old players. People who are grown with classic schemes. Old players expect new ones to crawl back to them and learn the art of classic schemes. I don't think I've ever seen a new clan being welcome to the league.
4. Hysteria is picked because you can have fun and at least finish the game. Same goes for Intermediate. People don't give away free wins for Hysteria/Intermediate because they can play to the end no matter how low their skills are. But they do for TTRR/Roper.
If you think Hysteria is flawed, simply present your fixed scheme, or even better a replay of players played with that scheme and let us move on.
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1. Hysteria is the scheme kids today play. Elite isn't. New players have confidence in Hysteria because it is one of the most played scheme of theirs, ergo the scheme gets to be picked most. Your father may call you noob not being able to play Chess with him while you pick Tetris against him. A gamble game.
So you're saying the new generation of wormers is more fond of hysteria? Shopper is still the most played scheme and Hysteria ain't even close: http://stats.worms2d.info/hbschemes.txt
It's only in TUS where hysteria is the most popular scheme, and this thread is to try and figure out why beyond reasonable doubt.
2. High skilled players, which are considered BnG/Elite/RR/Roper players mostly, don't take Hysteria seriously and don't bother to learn. I mean comon, who wants to learn Tetris when there is Chess? I am sure I can find hysteria games between pr0s and no0bs that pr0s lost because of very bad mistakes not because of "gamble shots".
There's many experienced hysteria players that share the view that Hysteria is a "pro-bashing" scheme. I am sure I can also find a replay proving the opposite of what you claim so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this particular point.
3. Our top clans consist of old players. People who are grown with classic schemes. Old players expect new ones to crawl back to them and learn the art of classic schemes. I don't think I've ever seen a new clan being welcome to the league.
I don't understand any of this or how it's relevant to the discussion.
4. Hysteria is picked because you can have fun and at least finish the game. Same goes for Intermediate. People don't give away free wins for Hysteria/Intermediate because they can play to the end no matter how low their skills are. But they do for TTRR/Roper.
What do you mean finish the game? Are you saying people tend to leave Elites and Ropers before they're finished because they're getting owned? Or are you saying that they have a bigger chance in competing until the end in hysteria regardless of skill level, because if that's what you're saying, thanks, it's what I've been saying all this time.
If you think Hysteria is flawed, simply present your fixed scheme, or even better a replay of players played with that scheme and let us move on.
There is no point in presenting a fixed scheme or a fixed set of rules if you can't even get people to admit there's a flaw in how the community approaches this scheme and under what cirumstances they do. It would be like all the other times (w2 roper, Nrbng, less luck Team17, Less luck Shopper) people have come to this board with sensible scheme tweaks to improve competition: it will all be ignored because it doesn't have the support of the effective majority, ergo those who only play one scheme and can't even construct a logical argument.
Cheers
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There's many experienced hysteria players that share the view that Hysteria is a "pro-bashing" scheme. I am sure I can also find a replay proving the opposite of what you claim so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this particular point.
Can you name any? Other than old-schoolers who only play it cause it's in classic and they MUST?
There is no point in presenting a fixed scheme or a fixed set of rules if you can't even get people to admit there's a flaw in how the community approaches this scheme and under what cirumstances they do. It would be like all the other times (w2 roper, Nrbng, less luck Team17, Less luck Shopper) people have come to this board with sensible scheme tweaks to improve competition: it will all be ignored because it doesn't have the support of the effective majority, ergo those who only play one scheme and can't even construct a logical argument.
I think we all had our reasons to deny those schemes. There was interest in w2roper, but it was soon discovered the scheme had major drawbacks (the inability to recover from an early mistake for example). NrBnG was nice for some, but in essence it was still the same BnG that people consider boring and unappealing.
T17 and Shopper schemes have been altered during the years to better suit competition. The 7 girder rule in T17 for example was accepted within weeks and it greatly improves the scheme. It wasn't changed cause of the endless discussions, but because one guy took action and actually made a scheme with 7 girders.
As far as I see it:
1) the complaints about hysteria in this thread are rather vague. It's something about being 'noobish', 'cheap', 'lucky', etcetera.
2) There's been a thread by lacoste to change the scheme: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/schemes-13/lets-work-on-the-proper-hysteria-variation/ He got butchered; nothing came out of it.
3) Everyone has his own problems with hysteria and his own ideas. Other than lacoste, nobody made an effort to present a scheme-fix.
4) Nothing was done, nothing is being done, nothing gets done.
5) ropa has 300 new posts, which cost him only 5 mins to write (as if) and has thus spent another 25 hours on this forum arguing over nothing (see point 4). Not to mention all the time he has wasted reading the other replies.
But then, it's not a waste of time for ropa. He needs arguments like penguins need fish.
I know I sound cocky when I say it, but really ropa, you are wasting your life. All you do is argue with people over the internet. You contribute nothing. No schemes, no maps, no leagues, not even games played to this community. Absolutely nothing.
How many more pages do you need to realize that? This thread isn't going anywhere, just like all those other threads you participated in. How many more people do you need to visit this thread and tell you to 'stfu' and do more useful things before you finally get the clue?
ahh, end of rant.
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There's many experienced hysteria players that share the view that Hysteria is a "pro-bashing" scheme. I am sure I can also find a replay proving the opposite of what you claim so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this particular point.
Can you name any? Other than old-schoolers who only play it cause it's in classic and they MUST?
You could read the thread and answer yourself, I'll give you one that fits your criteria and comes to mind though: Guaton.
I think we all had our reasons to deny those schemes. There was interest in w2roper, but it was soon discovered the scheme had major drawbacks (the inability to recover from an early mistake for example). NrBnG was nice for some, but in essence it was still the same BnG that people consider boring and unappealing.
What about NRBNG exponientally reducing the cheapness. Oh, that's not a valid reason according to you right? Reasons are only those that have a direct impact on popularity and activeness, right?
T17 and Shopper schemes have been altered during the years to better suit competition. The 7 girder rule in T17 for example was accepted within weeks and it greatly improves the scheme. It wasn't changed cause of the endless discussions, but because one guy took action and actually made a scheme with 7 girders.
Wooka's shopper?
As far as I see it:
1) the complaints about hysteria in this thread are rather vague. It's something about being 'noobish', 'cheap', 'lucky', etcetera.
Vague? ShyGuy is vague? I'm vague? I mean, ok, darkz is a bit vague because he has a much more laid back attitude and he's very respectful in forums but how can you say our reasons are vague when we've done nothing but try and prove our points with common sense and "data" in order to get people to understand it? The only vague thing here is saying "hysteria is the most played because it's fun" without actually sharing any sort of supportive argument for it and assuming that one's personal opinion translates to everyone because oh life would be much easier that way.
All you do is argue with people over the internet. You contribute nothing. No schemes, no maps, no leagues, not even games played to this community. Absolutely nothing.
That's only because you don't give any value to the things I say, but that's more to do with you than it has to do with me.
How many more pages do you need to realize that? This thread isn't going anywhere, just like all those other threads you participated in. How many more people do you need to visit this thread and tell you to 'stfu' and do more useful things before you finally get the clue?
ahh, end of rant.
Well, you certainly not getting it anywhere by making a post only directed to flaming me. If you notice, these previous threads you mention have some resulted in a rule or scheme change, or at least, it has made people aware. All I've been trying to do in this thread is ilustrate a point in hopes people would pick up from there and realize what the main problem with the scheme is. I've done my best to try and make it sound the least subjective possible, I presented statistical data, all this whilst having to deal with people like you who only come here with the intent of judging my persona based on personal opinion as opposed to judging my words.
We can all do that, HHC:
I know I sound cocky when I say it, but really ropa, you are wasting your life.
This is coming from a 35 year old unemployed child molester living in his parent's basement.
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2) There's been a thread by lacoste to change the scheme: https://www.tus-wa.com/forums/schemes-13/lets-work-on-the-proper-hysteria-variation/ He got butchered; nothing came out of it.
3) Everyone has his own problems with hysteria and his own ideas. Other than lacoste, nobody made an effort to present a scheme-fix.
Im still on it, just lately i have other things to do and in meantime playing WO's / TUS cups that im in, but definitely gonna host some of the 3s tourneys/cups here or on WO. Sofar (from the people i played with) almost everyone liked the scheme more than hyst or loved it, i just have to make a marathon of cups to check interest of the whole community. Just not yet.
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Could you (HHC and ropa) please write posts that are not insulting? I don't think its necessary to do this.
on topic:
I kinda need another summary from you (ropa and shyguy and everything else who shares their opinion) what the flaw(s) of hysteria are in your opinion.
From what I read your main problem is, that hysteria is being picked by weaker players to have easier wins against better players. Is that right?
If so:
Maybe the weaker player thinks so, but in fact I don't think its true. My overall stats say that I won 176 out of 202 Hysteria TUS games (87.13%). My overall stats say that I won 1175 out of 1346 TUS games (87.3%). I'm aware that the given sample size is not big enough to be somewhere close to have proof, but common sense would say that its not easier to win hysteria against me than generally winning against me.
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prove our points with common sense and "data" in order to get people to understand it?
I thought the 'data' in this thread was lacking.. at best. It's just people throwing in some random numbers without any credible basis, leaving out many variables and presenting their own subjective view as hard facts.
That's only because you don't give any value to the things I say, but that's more to do with you than it has to do with me.
Really? I see everyone else is just dying to hear your opinion ..
Well, you certainly not getting it anywhere by making a post only directed to flaming me.
It's just 1 more post of drivel, it'll get lost in the ocean of boobaadoobaa.
All I've been trying to do in this thread is ilustrate a point in hopes people would pick up from there and realize what the main problem with the scheme is.
How many hysteria's have you played?
You just conceptualize everything and go on and on about presumed theoretical fallacies without ever trying things out in practice. Neither the old scheme, or new ideas to improve it.
I've done my best to try and make it sound the least subjective possible, I presented statistical data, all this whilst having to deal with people like you who only come here with the intent of judging my persona based on personal opinion as opposed to judging my words.
I don't mind debating things, but to be honest, 99% of the posts in this topic aren't worth responding to. They are just full of biased bullshit. Your posts are especially up there. If you want me to judge your words, then yeah, I'm sorry but it's all uninteresting b.s. to me.
People like Mablak have at least something to say, even though I strongly disagree with him and don't care for all the technicalities he posts. You just bitch at a scheme without anything to back it up.
Unlike you, I don't respond to empty posts like that.
I know I sound cocky when I say it, but really ropa, you are wasting your life.
This is coming from a 35 year old unemployed child molester living in their father's basement.
I'm just saying, you don't contribute anything, as much as you seem convinced that you do. I don't think you'll be missed when you can't post here nemore. That's why I feel like you are wasting your time.
edit: sorry Random.
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And to contribute something to this topic:
I wouldn't change anything about the scheme. It sucks that there are 'flaws' but I don't think there any good fixes to it. Lowering the SD-time ain't good, because forcing SD is always a big risk. The water comes fast so you have few turns to settle the score. I therefore usually don't force it cause I feel safer just fighting 3vs1 against the side of the map than gamble the SD-play.
Telecow is just part of the game. You can increase timer to 3, but then you just have aerial with no crates, a flamethrower and a cow. It would be weird.
Removing the scheme just because newbies pick it doesn't seem like a valid reason to me. Or a smart thing to do when you want to stimulate the activity of the league.
Hysteria has been played thousands of time. That's a good indication that the current scheme suffices and works out right.
edit for Ropa: I said all I wanted to say, better not start another out-of-context-quotes war.
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I thought the 'data' in this thread was lacking.. at best. It's just people throwing in some random numbers without any credible basis, leaving out many variables and presenting their own subjective view as hard facts.
Like when MI claimed Hysteria was the most popular scheme amongst new players? Because all the "random numbers" I got were taken directly from TUS.
Really? I see everyone else is just dying to hear your opinion ..
As opposed to everyone wanting to hear you rant about me offtopic?
It's just 1 more post of drivel, it'll get lost in the ocean of boobaadoobaa.
So let me get this straight, you're contributing to the problem whilst complaining about the problem?
How many hysteria's have you played?
I couldn't tell but quite a few, actually. Why does that matter at all?
I don't mind debating things, but to be honest, 99% of the posts in this topic aren't worth responding to. They are just full of biased bullshit. Your posts are especially up there.
Wait, so how come you actually responded to me to begin with?
If you want me to judge your words, then yeah, I'm sorry but it's all uninteresting b.s. to me.
So then why post? To have a free dig at me? Ah, fine. Got it all out buddy?
I'm just saying, you don't contribute anything, as much as you seem convinced that you do. I don't think you'll be missed when you can't post here nemore. That's why I feel like you are wasting your time.
Yeah, I got your point the first time you said it, we're wasting our lifes by posting in this thread. Said the murdered to the dead.
edit: I'm glad you got it all out HHC. It's ok, we can be friends, I know your stance on the game, it's totally understandable you die for casualness, after all, you've spent 13 years trying to get good at the game and never managed to this date :(
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2. High skilled players, which are considered BnG/Elite/RR/Roper players mostly, don't take Hysteria seriously and don't bother to learn. I mean comon, who wants to learn Tetris when there is Chess? I am sure I can find hysteria games between pr0s and no0bs that pr0s lost because of very bad mistakes not because of "gamble shots".
There's many experienced hysteria players that share the view that Hysteria is a "pro-bashing" scheme. I am sure I can also find a replay proving the opposite of what you claim so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish with this particular point.
There's no way till we break it into actual data. Here's 10 of mm's recent lost hysteria games (https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/search/120151%20115477%20113334%20113333%20113332%20110863%20108897%20108521%20107852%20106690%20%21or-1/) which Mablak participated:
mm as one of the high skilled clans.
Mablak as one of the best players.
First game is vs CF, since CF is one of the top clans I'll skip that. Our discussion is about the abuse less skilled players/teams do.
Second game (https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-115477/) is vs l3x. At 7:57 Mablak mistakes turn order and teleport on the opponent's worm which was his turn.
Third is vs CKC, skipping.
Fourth game (https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-113333/) is vs eS.
At 16:15, Mablak uses jetpack and land so near to his other worm. Let's not count it as a mistake.
At 16:53 mm has 4 worms on top while eS has 1 worm darksiding. This is a very good example of so many nags. 4 worms of mm are on top perfectly placed for zook shots. That's a very bad practice in Hysteria. You simply are allowing your opponent to take advantage of his hide/darksiding. In these cases, if the team on top doesn't like to move, they waste time to force the darksider to move. Instead mm is trying shots which have almost no chance of hitting which is allowing eS to try so many zook shots to succeed.
At 19:35 Mablak worms got piled together. At 19:50, Mablak doesn't separate them, he prefer to have a shot instead. In fact he doesn't separate them for the next 4 turns. After than he is shot and he is left with one 4hp worm. This is a situation when eS has tried many shots and they have learned how to shot Mablak's position. So Mablak is left with one 4hp worm and he decided to have another shot which fails and he is dead next turn. I'm sure Mablak was sleepy in this game or wasn't in the mood at all, but I'm failing to see the gamble in this pile of mistakes.
Fifth game (https://www.tus-wa.com/leagues/game-113332/) is vs eS. This is a normal Hysteria game. eS simply plays better and no major telepiling in this game.
Could you please show me some replays that shows the gambling in this scheme?
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Could you please show me some replays that shows the gambling in this scheme?
Wanna play and see how close I get to beat you even though people claim I never play worms?
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You don't need to do that since TUS already have many Hysteria replays. All you have to do is watch and point to them like I did.
If you think you can prove your point better by playing pick Random00 as your opponent. I've been coding all my time lately and I'm not in shape. Play with Random00, you as less skilled and him as high skilled. Play 5 games (even more) and show us the replays. We're talking about winning percentage not how close you can get. We will see how your abusing-plan would beat the high skilled player.
Please don't choose another player since Random00 is very much suited for this example. There are better Hysteria players than him but he has winning attitude and self-esteem which overall makes him the better player.
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Playing a few games will not enlighten anything, would need a large amount of games played. Besides, Ropa is not that bad ;P
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Please don't choose another player since Random00 is very much suited for this example. There are better Hysteria players than him but he has winning attitude and self-esteem which overall makes him the better player.
Why not Gabriel?
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Could you (HHC and ropa) please write posts that are not insulting? I don't think its necessary to do this.
on topic:
I kinda need another summary from you (ropa and shyguy and everything else who shares their opinion) what the flaw(s) of hysteria are in your opinion.
From what I read your main problem is, that hysteria is being picked by weaker players to have easier wins against better players. Is that right?
If so:
Maybe the weaker player thinks so, but in fact I don't think its true. My overall stats say that I won 176 out of 202 Hysteria TUS games (87.13%). My overall stats say that I won 1175 out of 1346 TUS games (87.3%). I'm aware that the given sample size is not big enough to be somewhere close to have proof, but common sense would say that its not easier to win hysteria against me than generally winning against me.
I don't have time right not for an extremely detailed post, I'll explain later, although they are all tucked away in this thread.
1. It doesn't fit under the definition of competitive in terms of risk and reward. The scoreboard doesn't matter in hysteria and the game turns into a 1v1 no matter how anyone plays early and mid game. If the objective of the game is to kill the enemy, yet killing yourself, which would seem to be progressing the enemy's objective, is favorable in many situations, that seems like a direct flaw to me.
2. Hysteria, as the name implies, is supposed to be chaotic. You have a short amount of time to make a move. Your fingers are smashing those keys frantically to pull a complex move off. The problem is, with 1 second to do anything, you're actually extremely limited. Because you're so extremely limited with what you can do, the scheme is abused and that's what makes killing yourself so viable. You can teleport around and rape your opponent because with 1 second it's too difficult to defend... I've already presented a couple situations where even if you pile your worms to try to protect against rotation rape, the damage dealt will still be in favor of the person who is down a worm, that's why killing yourself in hysteria is viable. Having 1 second to do anything isn't hysteric, it's just restraining and makes gameplay boring... With 3 seconds, it actually is more hysteric because you have more time, but still a LITTLE time, plus you have so many more options you can do with 3 seconds... more key pressing frantically to try to pull off your move, less of walking for .8 seconds and throwing a nade and retreating. With 3 seconds, killing yourself isn't viable anymore because defending your worms is actually feasible with 3 seconds - THIS DOESN'T MEAN IT'S BORING, YOU STILL NEED TO FRANTICALLY RUSH TO THE ASSAILANT AND MAKE AN EFFECTIVE MOVE TO DEFEND.
Those are my 2 big qualms about hysteria, which, imo, is enough to change the scheme. They could probably be combined because 1 sec turn time results in abuse of the scheme and stale gameplay which results in little risk/reward which results in irrelevant early/mid game which results in 1v1 end game no matter what.
I would recommend lacoste's scheme.. I dunno why HHC said he got destroyed in his thread, that scheme got all positive reception. It fixes the problems of the current hysteria
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Time ago noobs were picking shopper to beat good players, now it's been replaced by Hysteria, guess why?
It's way easier to beat a good player in Hysteria, than in Shopper (called lucky scheme by the most here)
Anyway, if there will be an official thread about trying to modify this scheme, I would be glad to give some ideas, this thread is too chaotic.
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i have only played aerial a few times, and i liked the scheme...
it seemed much more challenging, and i really had to think of what to do, and where to hide, and how to approach each turn....
i think thats a scheme that could really take time to master, and be a skillfull scheme that everyone would enjoy...
but as shy said, hysteria is just full of flaws, and 1 second is just a mess... it turns into killing yourself on purpose... when clanning with shy, ill often just kill myself and let him win.. its much easier that way.... noone thinks thats a problem??
there really is no learning curve (as many have mentioned) to hysteria... any random person can come to Wnet, and play hysteria... sure, some are good... some are better, and some are great at the scheme... but that does not mean the scheme is not flawed... of course Random00 is going to have a high win percentage in hysteria, his knowlede and understanding of the game, and weapons is above alot of players (and certainly above the newbs that pick it against him, out of fear of trying him in other schemes)
i agree with everyone here though, everyone has some good points....
ropa and shyguy both make good points the scheme needs to be updated (the facts are, the scheme was never meant to be in league.... it was meant for fun... so it obviously needs to be tweaked)
HHC's good point was that nothing will ever come of this thread :P
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we pick hysteria because it's fun O= not because we have better chance to win in it compared to other schemes
Do you have any data to back this up? Or is this just what you want to believe and hope that by repeating it many times it eventually becomes true?
Can you elaborate? Why do you think "fun" is the reason and not "small learning curve therefore anyone can get decent at it and actually win games in a league"?
excuse me, let me rephrase my words:
I pick hysteria because it's fun O= not because I have better chance to win in it compared to other schemes
and sometimes when we r clanning, my clan mate let's me pick and I pick what I find fun
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well, aerial is much funniest then hysteria for me Husky.
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are we allowed to pick aerial in classic league? =P
yeah I like aerial alot more than hyst
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Instead of talking about it, can you just find some replays please and we can do what MI done.
I strongly believe you will never find a game that proves anything you say.
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but as shy said, hysteria is just full of flaws, and 1 second is just a mess... it turns into killing yourself on purpose... when clanning with shy, ill often just kill myself and let him win.. its much easier that way.... noone thinks thats a problem??
One way to counter this is not to make use of the WA team system, i.e. playing with 4 colours instead of 2.
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Hysteria is a good scheme...For funners with several players..As it stands now it is not suitable for a leauge..Perhaps if we added a limited ammount of teleports ? That could propably make it more feasible....oh well i would still much rather remove it and replace it with intermidiate luckless.
I have almost opposed shoppa...It is like russian roullete...Just remove it..
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del
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i'd remove hysteria cos there's bng, remove shopper and wxw cos there's roper. and add br cos there's ttrr.
bng, elite, roper, team17, rr, br - sound good? :-)
lol nope xD
boom race is funny but i don't think, it should be in calsic league :D
replace ttrr by big RR and hysteria by aerial :D and maybe BnG by forts :D
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replace hysteria by aerial
Hell no!
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Add Darts, there's no luck factor at Darts.
Ah, but Darts is a nope for the most of people. xd
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del
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it's battle race... :-[
battle race suck xD
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chelsea would love to play battlerace if there would be jetpacks in crates ;D
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remove shopper and wxw cos there's roper
wut ? ;o
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del
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remove shopper and wxw cos there's roper
wut ? ;o
roper is more challenging than shoppers, and shoppers are not really classical because they were not part of old leagues like wacl and cl2k
yes they were.... wxw wasn't!
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Newschool crap schemes won't be removed nor will there be any changes to get this into a positive way or to bring back the old habits of a skill required league.
Why? There can be lots of opinions now and I'm sure the trash talkers will keep their job by construe it to a point they don't really care about. Since they only play roper, wxw, darts and rr on a regularly basis or even avoid to play the opponent's pick in case it's default or anything they don't LIKE.
In return to the question: It's simply due to increasing and/or keeping the activity level of this site/community. Leagues have already been splitted to customize the target audience. TUS Classic's activity would decrease if schemes like shoppa and hyst - that definitely don't deserve to be there imo - got terminated. The range of schemes are simply too much. Variety of classic schemes should be lowered. Thus there would be either a risk of 10 different leagues with 5 players each cuz they fit their expections or the loss of player's activity due to quitting to play league games. I could extend this even more and list up pro/contra but this won't lead into anything anyway.
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Newschool crap schemes won't be removed nor will there be any changes to get this into a positive way or to bring back the old habits of a skill required league.
What exactly do you believe would make this a "skill required league" and what do you think would make it "active"?
Personally, I don't believe Team17 is skill enough for Classic League, but it's a "Classic" scheme...
"Newschool crap schemes"? What makes them crap? The fact you don't like them? The fact they weren't invented when WA was still in nappies?
I bet if all schemes available NOW were available when WA was released, the schemes you know and love as Classic, wouldn't all be known/remembered in the same way.
Since they only play roper, wxw, darts and rr on a regularly basis or even avoid to play the opponent's pick in case it's default or anything they don't LIKE.
Those 4 schemes you mentioned are great schemes, they are fun, they are competitive, i'd agree less with Roper because of the amount of luck involved on stupid maps people tend to play these days but played on the right map those 4 schemes are very skill-based.
I agree it's a bit lame to avoid playing the opponents pick, feels bad when someone refuses your pick... But then again on the other hand it's their life, it's their choice to play or forfeit, it's their time, and you can't force them to play or that would be even worse.
In return to the question: It's simply due to increasing and/or keeping the activity level of this site/community. Leagues have already been splitted to customize the target audience. TUS Classic's activity would decrease if schemes like shoppa and hyst - that definitely don't deserve to be there imo - got terminated. The range of schemes are simply too much. Variety of classic schemes should be lowered. Thus there would be either a risk of 10 different leagues with 5 players each cuz they fit their expections or the loss of player's activity due to quitting to play league games. I could extend this even more and list up pro/contra but this won't lead into anything anyway.
Agree with all that, too much choice, but that's evolution :o