Changing Classic League Schemes

[MonkeyIsland]

@Free,
Your example is incomplete. You can't judge a game by focusing on a small portion of it. You gotta see the whole game.
It is like saying in Team17, I collect uzi, the next turn you collect nana. How unfair is that? It is the whole game that counts.

I asked what you have to say when the opponent forces SD and waits until water has risen enough so it becomes a gamble who hits the game winning shot. You think your skill/tactics has much to do at this point?

How the game managed to go in that direction?
In order to force SD, you gotta waste seconds, meaning you have to NOT attack and waste turns. This gives your opponent an opportunity to reduce your worms health as much as possible. So even if SD comes, it will be in favor of your opponent.
So again, how the game managed to go in that direction you described?

[TheKomodo]

What is a bluff in hysteria? I'm guessing it is hiding out in the open to draw your opponent out.  Or is it just stupidity hiding out in the open with 10-20 hp left?  Can't wait to hear your answer

Seriously, you can bluff in Hysteria, and other schemes, all it is, is making your opponent think 1 thing, while you do another, there are many ways to do this, it's natural, it can't be taught, I am good at it.

I rest my case, you guys make a great couple, posting stuff without an explanation or facts to back shit up.

Actually, there is way way WAY more then sufficient data of explanations from me alone, go read up everything i've ever said about Hysteria, if you don't put the effort in, then shut the f@#! up.

If you guys were naturally interested in Hysteria, i'd maybe share my tactics and try explaining how I think and feel about Hysteria, but theres no way I will with that attitude, you aren't interested anyway, all you are interested is changing TuS on a daily f@#!ing basis, cuz you don't like what is already on the menu.

i also dont get why people talk about nice shots should be more rewarded. you can also do a hyper nice plop in elite/shopper/ or insane kill in roper and the reward will be the same as in hysteria >>>>> the opponent will pile your worms. its basic, get over it. many people dont use the oppurtunity for nice attacks on purpose because they dont want to have a disadvantage on the long term. but noone complains about it.hysteria is not bng thats why jetpack atatcks from close distance after a telepile are fine. sure its more skill to hit someone from distance, but you wont use a nade to finish a game in elite when u have airstrike or missile left. u have the jetpack only in hysteria, would be stupid not use it. same goes for 50 hp damage in elite with sg.both attacks dont need much skill in the most situations. they just happen because they are possible and useful.  

about punishment/reward for a lead: the nature of worms: the less units you controll the more flexible you are with your attacks. but you also have less energy and may die soon.

about killing own worms:whats the problem? you also sacrifice your own units chess to create a trap.

about boring telerace: this only happens when both players are not comfortable with their current positions.this just means they have done something wrong in their midgame.

I thought all of this was common sense, at least that's stuff I think about, never actually thought to say it, very well said Peja and i'm glad you backed it up

This really is my personal main reason why I disregard everthing you have said against Hysteria, regardless what happens, no matter what kind of situation I find myself in Hysteria, I ALWAYS have a plan that WILL work if I play good enough, and I hit the shots I need to hit, there is NO flaw that prevents me from winning unless I personally make a mistake, the fact that I have to keep focused and keep changing my plans, is one of the biggest thrills for me, making sure I execute as many ideas and plans as possible to assure my victory.

[Aerox]

Bottom line is hysteria almost always comes down to 1v1 bng, and we already have a scheme for that.  

Why else do you think Komodo is so butt hurt at any changes recommended for it?

Just limit the teleports and be done with it. You can't justify constant darksiding in a game that's basically bng with more weapons and telepile. You can not. And the only reason you guys are defending it is because the current state of hysteria allows you guys to beat Random and Mablak at times.

About Komo, I think we are all fed up listening how good you think you are. Just because you're good at the scheme doesn't mean you hold the truth or else all football players would be great football managers and all you're accomplishing is seeing people grow the habit of skip reading your posts, or skipping them on a whole.

[TheKomodo]

Bullshit ropa, Hysteria is nothing like BnG, you use "BnG" style shooting, but the tactics, pressure etc are a completely different game, and ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a fool.

And if they choose to ignore what I say, they will never learn, it's their loss, they will continue to get beat by players like me, their loss, whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo.

I have no time to take pity on the fact you are not as good as me, that's a human weakness I am glad I don't share.

I use my statistics and my skill as proof, not to brag about anything, if you are too insecure and think anything else, fair enough, I don't care lol, I have the proof that you don't.

[Aerox]

ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a fool

if they choose to ignore what I say, they will never learn

it's their loss

they will continue to get beat by players like me

whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo

it's their loss

I have no time to take pity on the fact you are not as good as me

whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo

a human weakness I am glad I don't share.

ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a fool

you are too insecure

whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo

I have the proof that you don't

ANYONE who thinks otherwise is a fool

whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo

whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo

whoop-dee-f@#!ing-doo

[TheKomodo]

I still don't see any bragging, all I see is truth and fact.

Why don't you come up with facts and truth, kinda like, what I have been doing, instead of pretending I said something else, or trying to ignore the fact I am right.

[Aerox]

I still don't see any bragging, all I see is truth and fact.

Why don't you come up with facts and truth, kinda like, what I have been doing, instead of pretending I said something else, or trying to ignore the fact I am right.

You're like Peter Crouch trying to argue with Jose Mourinho.

"aye mate you cannot speak about the football because you never was good at it aye."

[TheKomodo]

Thats entirely different lol, actually really funny that though.

Look, at the moment, I haven't even seen more than 20 people say Hysteria is lame, where as i've seen hundreds who think it's awesome.

You think it's flawed, I think it isn't. I am done.

[Free]

@Free,
Your example is incomplete. You can't judge a game by focusing on a small portion of it. You gotta see the whole game.
It is like saying in Team17, I collect uzi, the next turn you collect nana. How unfair is that? It is the whole game that counts.

I asked what you have to say when the opponent forces SD and waits until water has risen enough so it becomes a gamble who hits the game winning shot. You think your skill/tactics has much to do at this point?

How the game managed to go in that direction?
In order to force SD, you gotta waste seconds, meaning you have to NOT attack and waste turns. This gives your opponent an opportunity to reduce your worms health as much as possible. So even if SD comes, it will be in favor of your opponent.
So again, how the game managed to go in that direction you described?

I think replay examples is easier to communicate.

Let's say community agrees to 5s SD (you can abuse this with 10s also ofc). Depending on starting positions you can start forcing SD immediately. It really doesn't matter if your able to kill even 2 worms (maybe even 3) because water rise kills for you and it does become a gamble who hits the critical last shot. There's a really small portion of tactics involved with water rise but in all honesty, it almost always becomes an gamble. It's a really boring and lame way to Hysteria also and there's pretty much nothing you can do to counter-attack it effectively. You can win hysteria with just 1 shot or no shots at all, if opponent misses crucial shot when water is rising and you have spot to teleport. Water kills for you.

[TheKomodo]

And while they waste their time wasting time, you kill them so you have more worms at SD.

[Free]

And while they waste their time wasting time, you kill them so you have more worms at SD.

Do you even read what people write?

I just said water rise takes care of it. You just need to figure out the optimal time to teleport. It could even be handicap for the enemy if he has 4 worms to worry about in SD.

[TheKomodo]

You talk about the "last" crucial shot, just be good enough to hit "every" crucial shot.

Every player is responsible for their accuracy.

Next...

[Chicken23]

After reading on and skimming over the crap i see what your saying now Darkz. Its a shame noobies pick this scheme because they think they have a chance of winning it, but shame to the pros to losing to noobs haha.

But seriously, shy's post was execellent and i can see why the scheme has issues. HHC sums everything up so well, if you have a suggestion for a scheme variation, make the tweaks and start using it, ask your opponent to agree and try to make that scheme popular. Thats how all other schemes evolved over the years, and like you said aswell shy, its what W:A has done well so far. Hysteria is a new league scheme, so its bound to have some changes along the way, all other league schemes are way different to their originals now.


What would happen if you had worm select like t17? Then piling wouldn't be anywhere near as powerful but with 1second turn time it would still require some skill to select worm and pull off your move..

[TheKomodo]

Its a shame noobies pick this scheme because they think they have a chance of winning it, but shame to the pros to losing to noobs haha.

Do you really think people choose Hysteria just because they think they have a chance of winning it? Anyone truly skilled in Hysteria would realise the better player will usually win, just like Roper.

Hysteria is fun, easy to play, but the top skill level is extremely hard to defeat.

If I was a new player, I would choose Hysteria because how easy it is to play, and I would enjoy losing more, rather than play TTRR, that would scare me...

It's like Othello, a minute to learn, a lifetime to master, no other scheme is this flexible and competitive at the same time.

[Random00]

@its always 1vs1 at the end:
First of all this is just the case if your opponent doesnt make any mistakes. But when it's 1vs1 its also important to have a look at the HP of these 2 worms.
The early game doesnt matter at all most of the times, but the midgame is the time where you can gain an advantage for the endgame. I think in ~75% (thats just a random guess out of my memory) of the games I have an HP lead when it's down to 1vs1 in Hysteria. But imo, there are easy-to-execute tactics that can give you a gamble situation at the end. I never saw anyone actually doing it against me yet, but I think this is the main flaw of hysteria. It kinda leads to the situation that Free described, where its down to one nearly horizontal shot with zook at the end of sd.
Depending on the map and the bng skill of the player that uses this tactic you can win at least 1 out of 3 games against ANY player. I can't prove it, cause like I said, I've never seen anyone tyring to play like this, cause your winning chances are <50% like this, imo, because your opponent has to miss one important shot for you to win.

But all in all, I dont think that Hysteria is as flawed as for example Shyguy and darKz think it is. For most tactics there's a good counter tactic.
I'm still undecided if this scheme needs a change and if so, which changes would make the scheme better... :/

edit:

Do you really think people choose Hysteria just because they think they have a chance of winning it?

I think that most of the players that pick Hysteria against me, pick it, because they think they have the best chances of winning in this scheme.