Intermediate and Classic league

[Mablak]

I agree with lacoste, the stats you brought, Mablak, are only because the top of onl mostly plays bo5 and bo3, and have close games like 3-2, 2-1 etc.
If we only played bo1, those stats'd look a lot different.

Imo bo1 is the dumbest thing you can do on Intermediate, everyone will complain about triple kills on islands etc, and you'd have a lot of complains and luck blaming.
I very often had games with Dario, where it was 2-3, or 3-2, depending who started. For example: I start, big advantage, after the first two turns, high chance on win, and vice versa (especially on islands).
On caves this chance is lower, but then I know some people playing regularly on TUS who hate caves, because they consider it boring, though for me epic close cave matches are far more interesting than just island bashing until someone makes a mistake, but that's different for everyone .

As far as I recall the classic league, Intermediate doesn't really fit into it, since it's way more fast-paced.
I don't think that people who don't know Intermediate that well have the motivation to play a bo3 game.

Since I am no TUS league player, I won't vote here, just wanted to show you the point of view of a passionate Intermediate player

I think bo1 being the 'dumbest thing' is far from true, considering people have proposed things like manual placements. The only differences between the way bo1 and bo3 are played are psychological factors, things like players getting warmed up after the first round, or getting used to someone's style, or having a strong urge to come back. There's a difference, but not that huge of one.

And yeah there'll be a lot of complaining about luck, but it'll lessen if people start playing the scheme more. Compared to other schemes, I don't think it would be that bad, people have never stopped complaining about luck in Roper, Hysteria, and Team17.

[avirex]

ok ok, tele placement was a bad idea... im not inter player, i was just brain storming you brought up points i did not consider, yes horrible idea....


but what about a no attack first turn rule?? or is that horrible as well?? i just think it would give each team a chance to hide the "luck placed" worms...



maybe changing the scheme in ANY way is a bad idea...

but if no one really agrees it should be a bo1 (accept mablak) maybe it does not fit in TUS...



i do wanna see inter in the classic league, i think it belongs, but i cant ever imagine playing 3 semi-long games to determine the winner of 1 game.

[MonkeyIsland]

Quoting myself from the very first post of this topic:

If you think Intermediate must be here but must be tweaked first, please post your idea. Please note that by tweak I mean general rules of league regards Intermediate, NOT changing the scheme in a major way.

I'm considering the option of refusing Intermediate (or giving one time refuse to all schemes). Any major flaw with that?
I think the troubles bo1 will bring is more than the troubles of long bo3 games.
@darKz, you know the very first TUS system gave Intermediate base points 60, instead of 40 because of bo3.

[Kayz]

Well Mablak I meant the dumbest thing without changing the scheme itself,
I wanna see you playing a serious bo1 game, maybe in the next playoffs? Have fun.
I never even spent a second thinking about the proposed stuff like manual placement or "1st turn no attack".
TNL was stupid enough already, when some people didn't understand how SD worked and blamed the game instead their own tactics.

[Statik]

It should be bo3, but Intermediate shouldn't be played as a one's clan pick, both clans must agree to play it and must get points depending on the result (more points for 2:0 win, less for 2:1). For me it's obvious that people won't vote for Intermediate while they are forced to play it; and even if both sides agree to play bo3, the winner will gain 20-30 points for a 1 hour game, it's senseless. That's why I voted "no" (I don't want MI to do some extra job to add a scheme most people won't even play hehe).

[Kayz]

Ye getting hundreds of points for 15-0 in short lasting schemes is way "smarter" indeed instead "wasting" time on long Inter matches, if you want to get into playoffs.

That's why I still think the scheme won't fit here, unless changes in the league system happen, no offense, I won't criticize it

[avirex]

Ye getting hundreds of points for 15-0 in short lasting schemes is way "smarter" indeed instead "wasting" time on long Inter matches, if you want to get into playoffs.

That's why I still think the scheme won't fit here, unless changes in the league system happen, no offense, I won't criticize it

its obvious inter and tus will never come together

[Statik]

Yes Kayz, TUS points/ratings system is it's key feature. People need a motivation to play some scheme here. Points = motivation. Otherwise host Normal1vs1 on ag and get fun

[Kayz]

Doesn't seem like you understand what I meant.

[Csongi]

just leave it where it is atm !

[Jakka]

Asking whether inter is worth being in classic league sounds a bit ridiculous, for it should probably be the first scheme to think of as such. But sadly intermediate has had a rough reputation as a "noob scheme", because it is very popular among the beginners and also because the NNN clan successfully isolated itself from the rest of the community years ago. Now times has changed and I'm glad to see many of the long time league players taking a more mature approach on the tus-inter issue than last time it was discussed. I only hope it's because they got a taste of the scheme and maybe found out that it's not as luck dependent as the thought.

Now on topic. So far the votes are quite even. For me that's already reason enough to put it in. My understanding is that if a poll made nearly every scheme would find enough haters to get about 50% no-votes. For myself I hate hysteria like f@#!ing hell and don't have the slightest idea why it is in classic league, but I never made a topic asking to remove it. That's just something I have to deal with. And if some  inter disliking guys get it picked against them they should suck it up and understand that world doesn't always satisfy their ego's demands.

The real question ought to be: best of 1 or best of 3? And it's a tought one. I very aware of the fact that bo3 for one pick is just too much to handle for some people. Statik suggested the be able to veto intermediate and I completely disagree with him. Poeple should be able to veto every scheme then, not only inter, but if we really do this this league becomes a "what my opponent wants me to pick" league, which is stupid. However what about having a possibility to veto against bo3 and if done so you play a bo1. Despite common believe bo1 inter is quite playable provided e.g.people choose a tight map. Furthermore I like Avi's idea of the no attack first turn rule (of course for you have to delay special weapons a bit more then, especially cows).
If a bo3 played then all rounds are taken into account, not winner takes all.

So what are the thoughts on being eligible to veto against bo3 (a bo1 played instead then) and if vetoed then maybe no attack first turn (only if bo1)? Or something.

[Mablak]

I don't think no attack is a good idea, mainly because inter is not supposed to have any rules. This rule could be violated on accident by activating mines, causing FD, etc., and in addition to that, if you would be able to do things like lay mines, shoot petrol, or girder/block worms; you'd have to have even more explanation for those things. It would quickly become unnecessarily complicated.

And yeah Kayz, I would have fun just playing bo1. Just because bo3 is better doesn't mean bo1 isn't worth playing. Also, like other schemes, people would be free to play it as bo3 whenever they wish.

[Kayz]

I didn't talk about fun, I talked about fairness in serious games, and I thought this here is about a "league". Sorry but you can't tell me you'd consider a bo1 game for playoffs to determine who is the better player. In a cave sometimes yes, but I've already mentioned the problems of caves for some people. And "not attacking in the first turn" is also dumb, and I agree with not having rules in Inter at all, except bug abusing.

[Mablak]

TUS isn't 100% about seriousness, which is why it has some of the schemes it does. And yeah I would be fine playing a bo1 intermediate in classic playoffs, it's a hell of a lot better than having to play shoppa or hysteria.

[franz]

I'm sorry, the whole foundation of Intermediate is driving me crazy the more I think about it.

How exactly does Bo3 even fix everything anyway?  Bo3 prolongs the same underlying issues over multiple games.  Has this ever been discussed before?

Worm Placement luck and First luck aren't even eliminated by Bo3.  Awful placements don't disappear just because of Bo3, they can still happen, multiple times in a row.  And going First doesn't just get cancelled out due to Bo3, because someone still gets an advantage of going First twice.


Am I the only one who doesn't understand this about Intermediate?  There has to be something to make Bo1 Intermediate work.  Because I fail to see how Bo3 is the best solution.  It can't be.